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Post by Lady Artifice on Jul 22, 2017 0:35:48 GMT
I tried to sound just as pretentious and snobbish as you here. How well did I do? English is not my native language and I'm inherently not a pretentious snob, quite the opposite in fact, but it was still a fun exercise. Don't talk to her like that. You're kind, Drell, but I've got thick skin, and I make jokes about my own snobbery often enough to hear it remarked on by someone else. I can take it. But don't think I don't appreciate it.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 22, 2017 0:42:25 GMT
Different in magnitude but not in kind. The point was that diminishment can be the same as denialism.
The crucial point that I'm trying to drive home here is that diminishing the prevalence of a certain behavior is not the same as categorically denying the existence of that behavior. The most obvious difference is that the latter can be disproven with a single anecdotal example, while a claim along the lines of the former cannot. A single anecdotal example, no. But that's not what we have here, is it? We have lots and lots of anecdotal examples. What remains is determining whether or not all of those anecdotal examples are enough to counter "mostly" claim. And I would say that in this case, it does. Just as I would say that the great number of examples of Islamic terrorism demonstrates that it is not "mostly" in the heads of its decriers.
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Post by fiannawolf on Jul 22, 2017 0:52:36 GMT
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 22, 2017 0:52:38 GMT
But the author did give us an indication of what he was referring to by saying "misogyny." The examples in the Buzzfeed articles of "misogynist man-babies" are no different than what many of the Youtube comments said. So regardless of how you define misogyny, he and I are talking about the same thing.
And because some supposed YouTube comments were made by misogynists, therefore?...
Most people I know who objected to some degree to this, or to "representation" of this type are not misogynists. I am not a misogynist. But the first regressive / SJW reaction to an objection of this type is to start with the name calling, no matter the arguments. And it's understandable tbh, it's the easiest thing in the world, if you can't handle the argument you can de-legitimize the one making it.
Therefore, "Ha! Look at those idiots"....? That's kind of the issue with the article. It's not really arguing against any particular source. It's "My friends and Buzzfeed were making fun of misogynist man-children complaining about the female Doctor Who. I barely went to look and I found some but there wasn't as many examples as the arbitrary expectations I set. Therefore the idea that misogynist man-children are complaining about the new female Doctor Who seems like it's mostly a fabrication."
Again, arguing about the proper definition of "misogynist" is tangential to the point I was making about the article. The definition was made clear by the author. I would be happy to debate what is and is not misogyny but this isn't the thread for that.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jul 22, 2017 0:53:04 GMT
And that has what to do with me or my post? Are we just throwing out random comparisons or are you accusing me of being one again? Not accusing you of anything, just pointing out that when posters on this very thread did what I'm describing, you didn't call them out. And not that you need to either, I'm simply arguing that it's much more common on this side of the argument. (which you are obviously closer to than I am)
To what purpose, then? Say I ignore my own experience with manipulative styles of argument and just accept your perspective as more accurate than mine, that one side of an ideological spectrum is more inclined to behave a certain way than the other. What does that have to do with addressing an individual case of that behavior? What is the connection between your argument and my post?
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 22, 2017 1:03:52 GMT
Not accusing you of anything, just pointing out that when posters on this very thread did what I'm describing, you didn't call them out. And not that you need to either, I'm simply arguing that it's much more common on this side of the argument. (which you are obviously closer to than I am)
To what purpose, then? Say I ignore my own experience with manipulative styles of argument and just accept your perspective as more accurate than mine, that one side of an ideological spectrum is more inclined to behave a certain way than the other. What does that have to do with addressing an individual case of that behavior? What is the connection between your argument and my post? If you have an axe that needs grinding, everything starts to look like a whetstone.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 22, 2017 1:21:08 GMT
If you have an axe that needs grinding, everything starts to look like a whetstone. Ironically, that too can be applied to the kind of ideologues that think that the way to fix everything is by adding more "diversity". (diversity in a certain sense of course, ideological diversity is only encouraged towards cultures which can often be described as barbaric, otherwise, the unwashed masses need to a very defined sense of what is "good")
Do you believe that every example of adding diversity must be a cabalistic ploy to "fix" things, or do you allow for some cases of people adding in diversity simply because it makes sense and would be creatively interesting?
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 22, 2017 1:51:43 GMT
Do you believe that every example of adding diversity must be a cabalistic ploy to "fix" things, or do you allow for some cases of people adding in diversity simply because it makes sense and would be creatively interesting?
I think I replied to this very question before a few times. In this thread even. I even posted a video that pointed out some important differences between "diversity characters" and interesting characters that happen to be from an "other" background. I even acknowledged that it seems that in the specific case of the Doctor there is actually a logical in-universe reason that plausibly explains this change.
The main thing for me, when encountering a character, a story, a quest, a video game, etc. is that they should be interesting and appealing on their own merits, and that in order to enjoy them I wouldn't need to encounter what I see as ideological preaching. Because after all, I don't buy my entertainment for that, I buy it in order to be entertained, so seeing it used as a soapbox is annoying to me.
That's a very reasonable stance. I just think people are so conditioned into seeing "PC culture war" in everything that it biases them into seeing soapboxes where none are there. It's like on the opposite end where you have people so conditioned to see "patriarchal vestiges" in everything that anything white and male automatically becomes an "patriarchal" in their eyes. A similar thing is happening with the anti-SJW movement.
People create this nebulous enemy and start to group perfectly benign things into it for silly reasons. Doctor Who is not a PC capitulation because the character is now a woman; making The Ancient One in Doctor Strange white is not a slight against Asians or an imposition of white dominance (although, admittedly, it did seem a bit odd contextually). Sometimes weird creative people just want to make weird creative changes.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jul 22, 2017 2:07:20 GMT
Because there's a difference between objecting to a specific type of argumentation in general, and using it only to dismiss arguments we disagree with on an ideological level.I'm far from perfect either, but that doesn't mean that I don't try to make an effort to improve myself in that regard.
And the not-an-accusation that I did that is still false. You're still assuming ideology on my behalf, despite how many times I've pointed out that I don't like to get into my personal ideology on the internet--at all, because I would piss off so many people on both sides of the ideological divide. Then please, for pity's sake, please stop using me as a means to rant about general philosophies that you disdain. I am actually begging you here. If you want to debate me on my philosophy, will you please at least wait until I actually present mine? I am not the strawman you're looking for.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 22, 2017 2:14:34 GMT
Think of it as a compliment. You're just so easy to vent to.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Jul 22, 2017 2:43:00 GMT
That's a very reasonable stance. I just think people are so conditioned into seeing "PC culture war" in everything that it biases them into seeing soapboxes where none are there. It's like on the opposite end where you have people so conditioned to see "patriarchal vestiges" in everything that anything white and male automatically becomes an "patriarchal" in their eyes. A similar thing is happening with the anti-SJW movement.
People create this nebulous enemy and start to group perfectly benign things into it for silly reasons. Doctor Who is not a PC capitulation because the character is now a woman; making The Ancient One in Doctor Strange white is not a slight against Asians or an imposition of white dominance (although, admittedly, it did seem a bit odd contextually). Sometimes weird creative people just want to make weird creative changes.
I'm sure that there's an aspect of that as well, but the reality isn't as balanced as you are trying to portray it. From my perspective, much of the traditional media (most even), much of Hollywood, and many or most game developers are either directly controlled or heavily influenced by the left.
And when I say left, I mean anywhere from mere liberals, to progressives / regressives, and hardcore SJW. And that has clear implications when it comes to the level of ideological preaching pushed into entertainment.
Which is so much worse than how our government is run by the right-wing at all levels with the majority of governors and state legislatures also in their control. Clearly the right wouldn't be so up in arms if they were in the same position? Real-talk, it you're creating as much of a lopsided estimate of the media as you are denying the balance. It begs to think how reasonable you are. Honestly, let's put it this way: if you want to see bias, you will see bias.
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Post by Draining Dragon on Jul 22, 2017 2:45:28 GMT
Okay, this is moving away from Doctor Who and into more general politics that don't really fit in this thread. Let's try to stay on topic.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 22, 2017 2:51:28 GMT
EDIT: Ah, whoops. Didn't see Draining's post. Ending conversation. That's a very reasonable stance. I just think people are so conditioned into seeing "PC culture war" in everything that it biases them into seeing soapboxes where none are there. It's like on the opposite end where you have people so conditioned to see "patriarchal vestiges" in everything that anything white and male automatically becomes an "patriarchal" in their eyes. A similar thing is happening with the anti-SJW movement.
People create this nebulous enemy and start to group perfectly benign things into it for silly reasons. Doctor Who is not a PC capitulation because the character is now a woman; making The Ancient One in Doctor Strange white is not a slight against Asians or an imposition of white dominance (although, admittedly, it did seem a bit odd contextually). Sometimes weird creative people just want to make weird creative changes. I'm sure that there's an aspect of that as well, but the reality isn't as balanced as you are trying to portray it. From my perspective, much of the traditional media (most even), much of Hollywood, and many or most game developers are either directly controlled or heavily influenced by the left.
And when I say left, I mean anywhere from mere liberals, to progressives / regressives, and hardcore SJW. And that has clear implications when it comes to the level of ideological preaching pushed into entertainment.
You can replace "the left" with "white men" and you'd be able to say the same.
Why not judge the product on a case by case basis, apart from any political or social affiliations of its creators? Then if you see clear examples of ideological preaching you can go back and evaluate why. What I'm seeing in a lot of these cases is prime facie judgments on the intent the creator without knowledge or even an interest in knowing what the actual work is like. I remember people bitching about Spiderman Homecoming's diverse cast (despite the fact that it takes place in a public high school in the NYC) and then the end result turned out to be an unobtrusive representation of a very believable group of high school students (with a possible exception of Michelle's character, who was a satirical representation of your typical far-left protester).
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jul 22, 2017 3:02:44 GMT
And the not-an-accusation that I did that is still false. You're still assuming ideology on my behalf, despite how many times I've pointed out that I don't like to get into my personal ideology on the internet--at all, because I would piss off so many people on both sides of the ideological divide. I thought that this was what we were doing here, arguing ideology.
Whether you like it or not, by taking a position on various subjects, and by arguing against others, you are getting into your personal ideology on the internet. You can claim to be the enlightened centrist if you want, but doing so without actually proving it is useless, I haven't seen you supporting or claiming anything that is counter to "progressive" ideology.
In any case, I don't think any of my posts in this thread were particularly "offensive", I tried to keep my responses rational and relaxed. If the mere fact that I responded to you disturbs you to this degree, I suppose you can use your "ignore" function, I would certainly find it disappointing personally, but up to you.
I never claimed your posts were offensive, and I have absolutely no idea why you're both bringing the word up and simultaneously putting it in quotations as though I said it. Which is pretty much exactly what I'm talking about. I'm asking you for the fundamental consideration of not asserting my opinions for me. Not just because you've usually been wrong--you have, but that's not why. It's not a reasoned way to debate. It's a cheap maneuver that subverts the core topic and transforms the narrative into a this side versus that side ideological brawl. I have no obligation to prove my ideology, or even present it to you. In threads like this, I'm interested in discussion fiction, and arguing facts. I have made two main points in the thread: 1. That the comic book industry has been obsessed with making female versions of male characters since the 1950's, and 2. That there is a lot of fury in the youtube comments sections over the Doctor Who announcement. Neither of these points have represented my ideology. I have shared my opinion that the general habit of giving so many comic book figure female counterparts is lazy. So there's that. But Draining did ask that people stop talking comics in here, so we'd have to do it elsewhere anyway.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Jul 22, 2017 3:12:24 GMT
Well, I'd talk more Doctor Who, but there's another thread for it. This is a thread solely for a Doctor that hasn't even been born in-universe yet so...
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Post by Lorn on Jul 22, 2017 4:28:26 GMT
Because there's a difference between objecting to a specific type of argumentation in general, and using it only to dismiss arguments we disagree with on an ideological level.I'm far from perfect either, but that doesn't mean that I don't try to make an effort to improve myself in that regard.
And the not-an-accusation that I did that is still false. You're still assuming ideology on my behalf, despite how many times I've pointed out that I don't like to get into my personal ideology on the internet--at all, because I would piss off so many people on both sides of the ideological divide.
Then please, for pity's sake, please stop using me as a means to rant about general philosophies that you disdain. I am actually begging you here. If you want to debate me on my philosophy, will you please at least wait until I actually present mine? I am not the strawman you're looking for. Arti, that's the fun part!
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jul 22, 2017 4:47:58 GMT
And the not-an-accusation that I did that is still false. You're still assuming ideology on my behalf, despite how many times I've pointed out that I don't like to get into my personal ideology on the internet--at all, because I would piss off so many people on both sides of the ideological divide.
Then please, for pity's sake, please stop using me as a means to rant about general philosophies that you disdain. I am actually begging you here. If you want to debate me on my philosophy, will you please at least wait until I actually present mine? I am not the strawman you're looking for. Arti, that's the fun part! For you! It stresses me out.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Jul 22, 2017 4:48:13 GMT
I guess it's a matter of semantics then. If someone said "only 60 Jews died under the Nazis" I would still call that person a Holocaust denier.
But going by your reading of it then, neither of the statements "this misogynistic outrage mob...existed mostly in the imaginations of the people mocking it" or "Islamic extremism exists mostly in the imagination of people decrying it" can actually be said to be "wrong" since they're both dependent on the vague notion of "mostly." There's no discernible fact being argued. Under my reading, I would be able to say that both are wrong.
It's true that the language of the statement is not absolutely precise. Unfortunately, that's a common flaw in human communication, and more discussion would be needed to clarify the exact nature of the argument. What is clear, though, is that "mostly" is not the same as "entirely." The author even brings up examples of the outrage, which would seem to contradict the notion that they are denying its existence. That's why everything is relative and all interpretations are equally valid.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2017 8:12:50 GMT
I miss the time you could actually discuss things without the trollitics (trolls/politics, because theyre the same entity here) getting in the way and ruining things. This is just another thread for people to constantly spread their ideology. Its just an actor change, not a big deal. I wish we could actually discuss things our hopes and views on the new doctor without making this just another politics thread. Im genuinely confused whether people are being serious or trolling, ive lost track, either way is the same result to be honest I also wonder how many have an actual interest in the show, and how many view this as just another excuse to post :poop: And if people are being serious, I really wonder how many things they ruin for themselves... its kinda sad. Rather than enjoying a piece of art they apparently want to I dont know *points at stuff* It isnt just Doctor Who either, its Star Wars, comic books... its just like dude why are you sucking the enjoyment out of things??? And I also wonder why they have to ruin every thread they touch This thread has my vote to close unless its improved and is actually about the new doctor instead of another politics thread
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Post by Lorn on Jul 22, 2017 8:50:23 GMT
I miss the time you could actually discuss things without the trollitics (trolls/politics, because theyre the same entity here) getting in the way and ruining things. This is just another thread for people to constantly spread their ideology. Its just an actor change, not a big deal. I wish we could actually discuss things our hopes and views on the new doctor without making this just another politics thread. Im genuinely confused whether people are being serious or trolling, ive lost track, either way is the same result to be honest I also wonder how many have an actual interest in the show, and how many view this as just another excuse to post :poop: And if people are being serious, I really wonder how many things they ruin for themselves... its kinda sad. Rather than enjoying a piece of art they apparently want to I dont know *points at stuff* It isnt just Doctor Who either, its Star Wars, comic books... its just like dude why are you sucking the enjoyment out of things??? And I also wonder why they have to ruin every thread they touch This thread has my vote to close unless its improved and is actually about the new doctor instead of another politics thread Since you're younger than me, you're going to have to tell me when this mythical time was, because it sure as hell wasn't on this planet.
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Post by Gaston on Jul 22, 2017 9:46:29 GMT
I think I replied to this very question before a few times. In this thread even. I even posted a video that pointed out some important differences between "diversity characters" and interesting characters that happen to be from an "other" background. I even acknowledged that it seems that in the specific case of the Doctor there is actually a logical in-universe reason that plausibly explains this change.
The main thing for me, when encountering a character, a story, a quest, a video game, etc. is that they should be interesting and appealing on their own merits, and that in order to enjoy them I wouldn't need to encounter what I see as ideological preaching. Because after all, I don't buy my entertainment for that, I buy it in order to be entertained, so seeing it used as a soapbox is annoying to me.
That's a very reasonable stance. I just think people are so conditioned into seeing "PC culture war" in everything that it biases them into seeing soapboxes where none are there. It's like on the opposite end where you have people so conditioned to see "patriarchal vestiges" in everything that anything white and male automatically becomes an "patriarchal" in their eyes. A similar thing is happening with the anti-SJW movement.
People create this nebulous enemy and start to group perfectly benign things into it for silly reasons. Doctor Who is not a PC capitulation because the character is now a woman; making The Ancient One in Doctor Strange white is not a slight against Asians or an imposition of white dominance (although, admittedly, it did seem a bit odd contextually). Sometimes weird creative people just want to make weird creative changes. I do agree with the both of you here and I'd like to point out that I have no issue with most female or black or gay protagonists, only a certain few (Iron Hearth, female Thor and probably the 13th Doctor). I explained why before but you dismissed it, played stupid and misrepresented my arguments. But at least after Laughing Man's post you seem to understand it, if only just a little. That being said, Jodie Whittaker and the new writer for Doctor Who are both known to be regressive feminists and THAT is what got fans of the show understandably worried. The fact that thr 13th Doc will have a vagina has very little to do with the "outrage".
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Jul 22, 2017 10:58:27 GMT
I miss the time you could actually discuss things without the trollitics (trolls/politics, because theyre the same entity here) getting in the way and ruining things. This is just another thread for people to constantly spread their ideology. Its just an actor change, not a big deal. I wish we could actually discuss things our hopes and views on the new doctor without making this just another politics thread. Im genuinely confused whether people are being serious or trolling, ive lost track, either way is the same result to be honest I also wonder how many have an actual interest in the show, and how many view this as just another excuse to post :poop: And if people are being serious, I really wonder how many things they ruin for themselves... its kinda sad. Rather than enjoying a piece of art they apparently want to I dont know *points at stuff* It isnt just Doctor Who either, its Star Wars, comic books... its just like dude why are you sucking the enjoyment out of things??? And I also wonder why they have to ruin every thread they touch This thread has my vote to close unless its improved and is actually about the new doctor instead of another politics thread Since you're younger than me, you're going to have to tell me when this mythical time was, because it sure as hell wasn't on this planet. 5000 BC
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Jul 22, 2017 11:47:51 GMT
I miss the time you could actually discuss things without the trollitics (trolls/politics, because theyre the same entity here)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2017 12:29:23 GMT
I miss the time you could actually discuss things without the trollitics (trolls/politics, because theyre the same entity here) getting in the way and ruining things. This is just another thread for people to constantly spread their ideology. Its just an actor change, not a big deal. I wish we could actually discuss things our hopes and views on the new doctor without making this just another politics thread. Im genuinely confused whether people are being serious or trolling, ive lost track, either way is the same result to be honest I also wonder how many have an actual interest in the show, and how many view this as just another excuse to post :poop: And if people are being serious, I really wonder how many things they ruin for themselves... its kinda sad. Rather than enjoying a piece of art they apparently want to I dont know *points at stuff* It isnt just Doctor Who either, its Star Wars, comic books... its just like dude why are you sucking the enjoyment out of things??? And I also wonder why they have to ruin every thread they touch This thread has my vote to close unless its improved and is actually about the new doctor instead of another politics thread This is kind of unfair, Gen. All you have in here are people expressing their opinions which they are entitled to do, no matter what their opinion might be. Just because some of the opinions are ones you don't agree with and don't enjoy listening to or reading, it doesn't mean they have any less of a right to give them, just the same as you have every right to give yours. It also doesn't mean, just because they are opinions you don't like or share, that they are trolling. Going by such a train of thought would mean that people that don't agree with you should be questioning your sincerity in what you post, and think that you are ruining threads simply for expressing yourself in a manner they disagree with. Yeah, sometimes conversations get "heated" but this is what happens when you have individuals debating their opinions. Overall I guess my point is this; if it's okay for you to be able to give your opinion along with others that share a similar standpoint as you then the same consideration should be given to everyone.
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Post by Salty Drell on Jul 22, 2017 13:13:46 GMT
I miss the time you could actually discuss things without the trollitics (trolls/politics, because theyre the same entity here) getting in the way and ruining things. This is just another thread for people to constantly spread their ideology. Its just an actor change, not a big deal. I wish we could actually discuss things our hopes and views on the new doctor without making this just another politics thread. Im genuinely confused whether people are being serious or trolling, ive lost track, either way is the same result to be honest I also wonder how many have an actual interest in the show, and how many view this as just another excuse to post :poop: And if people are being serious, I really wonder how many things they ruin for themselves... its kinda sad. Rather than enjoying a piece of art they apparently want to I dont know *points at stuff* It isnt just Doctor Who either, its Star Wars, comic books... its just like dude why are you sucking the enjoyment out of things??? And I also wonder why they have to ruin every thread they touch This thread has my vote to close unless its improved and is actually about the new doctor instead of another politics thread This is kind of unfair, Gen. All you have in here are people expressing their opinions which they are entitled to do, no matter what their opinion might be. Just because some of the opinions are ones you don't agree with and don't enjoy listening to or reading, it doesn't mean they have any less of a right to give them, just the same as you have every right to give yours. It also doesn't mean, just because they are opinions you don't like or share, that they are trolling. Going by such a train of thought would mean that people that don't agree with you should be questioning your sincerity in what you post, and think that you are ruining threads simply for expressing yourself in a manner they disagree with. Yeah, sometimes conversations get "heated" but this is what happens when you have individuals debating their opinions. Overall I guess my point is this; if it's okay for you to be able to give your opinion along with others that share a similar standpoint as you then the same consideration should be given to everyone. Yeah, and you guys can do that in the politics thread since you're talking about politics and stuff relating to that, we've gone so far off topic it's getting ridiculous. Lets hear your opinions on Doctor Who now, the whole reason this thread exists.
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