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Post by capn233 on Mar 7, 2017 1:20:03 GMT
So was playing a bit with Iron Bull yesterday as per the other thread, but one thing that struck me again was that he was pretty mediocre with nearly any build I threw at him. Ok for some mundane stuff like the rift in the Hinterlands I retested a bit (with help of Solas), but on Champions he wasn't very good seemingly without regard to what I was trying... which I am just defining with the perhaps unrealistic definition of losing way too much health in the first part of Champions and or dying while on autopilot (not allowing health pots).
More importantly, I was noticing some peculiarities with his AI on that mission. When he had Grappling Chain, it didn't seem like he used it much on his own. Also wasn't really using Charging Bull much. I don't know if either of those things are related to pathing and the fact that this mission has a lot of guys on ledges and different heights. Mission has a lot of archers, which 2H is horrible against as well, especially if not using Chain to pull them in.
Have seen a few different build orders for him. I am trying to get through a "minimal power" run without any health pot use. FF is off, and I am crafting, although not using Golden Nug. Didn't think about buying Life Drain rings this time, which was just an oversight. He has some tier 1 style armor with 92 rating and some legs that add a little health.
I don't know if I should just make him useless as 2H for a while and grab all the damage resistance passives and BMTW in SnS. Or maybe mostly Vanguard tree? What stamina reserve is the best for him (I have a real hard time noticing that setting doing anything when I fool with it in a sensible range)? Does he just need more babysitting?
edit: For example here is part of papacharilie's progression that was posted
1. Grappling Chain
2. Crippling Blows
3. Coup de Grace
4. Horn of Valor
5. Fortifying Blast upgrade
6. Mighty Blow
7. War Cry
8. Charging Bull
9. Block and Slash
I should have 7 talent points IIRC. I didn't try b-lining to HoV on him yet, I didn't think that would be as worthwhile for me without Fortifying Blast.
Math's old 2H DPS progression is like this:
4 points - Level 3: Mighty Blow + Upgrade [Two-Handed Weapon, Right Side] + Gappling Chain + Upgrade [Battlemaster]
3 points - Level 6: Block and Slash --> Flow of Battle --> Pommel Strike [Two Handed Weapon, Left side]
3 points - Level 9: Crippling Blow --> Combat Roll --> Coupe De Grace [Battlemaster, Left side]
That's a bit fragile for AI control in my experience, unless I was just bungling the tactics settings.
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roro4066
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Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by roro4066 on Mar 7, 2017 11:58:26 GMT
I don't think AI characters use combat roll on their own, i've never seen it, so if you don't control him manually there is no point in giving him this ability.
with grapplin chain my cassandra is sometimes doing great and sometimes isn't using it at all. AI script is weird in that game IMO.
i also see my cassandra starting charging bull on 3 meters hitting no one and immediately use horn of valor which is quite annoying since she is set up to use HOV as "favourite" and charging bull as a "normal active" skill. so normally she is supposed to do HOV first, then charge, then war cry. Sometimes it works great and sometimes not...
As i already told you, i'm no fan of pommel strike.
I also noticed that iron bull is quite the weakiest warrior, everytime i put him in the party with descent and defensive gear (+ his 25% mele resist bonus) he is always the first one going down.
Like you, i have always wondered WHYYYYY?
This could be class related (2h) since i never gave him any build that is including a shield. But still confusing when i see my human reaver inquisitor doing much better than him (15 attributes points don't make THAT difference + no mele damage resist bonus for my inquisitor)
anyway there is something strange or difficult to understand in iron bull combat efficiency.
keep testing things mate!
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Mar 7, 2017 18:32:53 GMT
Wow, that's very different from my early game experience with Iron Bull with Trespasser onboard. What I see is: - He uses Grappling Chain too much. He's constantly stealing my kills.
- He never dies or uses health pots, but that's most likely due to Fortifying Blast.
- His main limitation seemed to be stamina, but he'd auto-attack to restore.
That said, I've never taken him to Champions. I take Cass for RP reasons, since it doesn't really matter which warrior you take. But I do spec her for 2H and she does fine. Again, I think HoV/Fortifying Blast is the key difference. Aside from that extra layer of protection, War Cry and Block & Slash on Preferred keep the Envy demon from doing too much damage in close combat. Arguably 1H is better for Champions due to Bear Mauls The Wolves and other passives, but since I seem to survive fine on Nightmare with a 2H, I don't go through the trouble of gearing up a 1H. Archers/ranged attackers are indeed the biggest problems, but again, HoV soaks up most of that, allowing my ranged attackers to counter-attack. BTW, I don't always use that loadout for the early game. Sometimes I go down the left side to Pommel Strike/Lightning Jab and just have the 2H warrior spam it. It's pretty fun to see every enemy that gets near the warrior get Stunned. But then the AI ruins it by doing an auto-attack on the stunned enemy ... |
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Mar 7, 2017 18:42:52 GMT
One other thing: I always set my tank warrior to Follow (self) in AI Tactics. I let The Iron Bull pick his own targets. I had hoped that would reduce the kill stealing with Grappling Chain, but it didn't. So when it bothers me too much, I disable Grappling Chain. This is the earliest in the game combat video I have with the Iron Bull, or any 2H warrior for that matter, and he's off screen for most of it, fighting some random target he selected. But towards the end you can see him fighting the boss. Notice that he's rarely down more than 50% of health and his guard is taking the brunt of damage done to him. Total party-wide heal pot consumption for the battle: 3 of 12. Oh, and I only show damage numbers for the controlled character -- it just looks like IB is missing every hit.  |
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Post by capn233 on Mar 7, 2017 23:15:59 GMT
I have had him use Grappling Chain more later game (I hadn't really used him this early much at all before), at least in mundane encounters in more normal maps. I think the layout of Champions might have been screwing it up maybe, don't know. He was set to follow Cass, since actually my party on this mission this time was 3 warriors and Viv.  I did end up making him fairly durable with the 7 points, albeit by sacrificing a primer and detonator: SnS: Shield Wall (disabled) -> Bear Mauls the Wolves; Payback Strike (disabled) -> Turn the Bolt 2H: Block and Slash (enabled) Vanguard: War Cry (enabled) -> Charging Bull (preferred) He didn't actually take any health damage in the first part of Champions, and barely took any through the Upper Barracks and Officer's Quarters bits. Lost some health to a Horror at the barrier fight, then took a burst from Envy because I was too slow getting him behind a pillar. When the adds came, I sent him to solo an archer, which was a mistake since he lost more health there and was low. Didn't really have the best management for Envy, the whole squad had low health (well except for me) at the end of the fight actually. Should have brought more Bees (had 6 total), but I didn't want to get more Blood Lotus. Also don't know why I didn't just do something like this before I posted since I should have remembered that guard generation from upgraded Block and Slash is pretty weak (even if player controlled), so he needs to get it from some place else. War Cry aggro wasn't a huge deal with BMTW and Turn the Bolt (for the most part), but Cass and myself were also using it, so he didn't have it all the time anyway. Maybe the real question I should have tried to answer is if Block and Slash is really adding value relative to either Chain or Mighty Blow (especially if in party with Mage that has Mana Surge). But I gained a level from the mission and not sure I want to get too bogged down in testing. |
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Mar 8, 2017 18:53:47 GMT
Maybe the real question I should have tried to answer is if Block and Slash is really adding value relative to either Chain or Mighty Blow (especially if in party with Mage that has Mana Surge). But I gained a level from the mission and not sure I want to get too bogged down in testing. It's a fair question. I tend to special-purpose both Shield Wall and Block & Slash. For example, for a dragon fight, or waves of mobs like in IYHSB. B&S really shines in both of those scenarios. And of course I usually have more skill points then, so it's not such a huge trade-off. I basically have B&S as an incidental cost of going for Flow of Battle, and SW for Shield Bash. |
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Post by capn233 on Mar 8, 2017 23:12:05 GMT
Right, Shield Wall is somewhat similar in that really AI doesn't build huge guard with it either. But it at least gives SnS defense against ranged attacks, and it is on the way to Shield Bash and BMTW for them anyway.
Don't know how much I will run him, I also need to figure out how strict I want to be with miminum power since Heart Shall Burn is so low cost I should be doing it right away. Only thing that is holding me back is all the quests and things that will get locked out if I do it. Also Inquisition level is only 3, which means I can't do On the Waking Sea (think that is the one) for Urgency belt, which is nice gear to have. I don't know of a fast way to get Influence without power. Maybe I should blow power unlocking places, heh.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Mar 9, 2017 21:08:34 GMT
I don't know of a fast way to get Influence without power. Maybe I should blow power unlocking places, heh. I believe Astrarium puzzles give Influence without Power. I did a study once to figure out how to optimize each: Influence, Power, XP. But, unfortunately, I can't find my notes, so I'm going by pretty poor memory. |
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Post by capn233 on Mar 9, 2017 23:06:00 GMT
Well I sort of bent my rules I guess. Did Apostates in the Witchwood since that one disappears (although it doesn't really matter). Unlocked Forbidden Oasis and grabbed all the shards there (easier without Venatori running around). Then I ended up doing a couple requisitions for influence, despite the fact they granted power. Had 9 power I think starting Heart Shall Burn, was level 7. I hit 8 on the second trebuchet.
Speaking of which, Iron Bull was trying to step on every single fire mine he could find at the second trebuchet for some reason. Aside from that he was ok. I had him pick up Chain at level 7, then for 8 he got the boot upgrade. He didn't hit 8 until the last trebuchet though. Was using it frequently enough this time, so I think what I was seeing in Champions might have been an oddity with that mission layout, as I was suspecting.
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