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Post by bloodmagereaver on Mar 14, 2017 13:59:08 GMT
By the time you march into the Arbor Wilds we are told that the Inquisition forces, bolstered by the Orlesian army finally matches the numbers commanded by Corypheus.
This made me wonder, exactly how big are the military forces in Thedas for a Tevinter cult bolstered by either the bulk of the Templar Order or the Rebel Mages to match a major power such as Orlais?
I know Tevinter, even in it's decadent state, is by far and large the most populous country with the largest military but how large it is for just a splinter faction to threat the second most populous country with the second largest military?
Is Tevinter that much of a behemoth or were the Templar Order/Mage Rebellion so numerous that they could rival the entire Orlesian military? If Tevinter has become so powerful again then how big is the Qunari military to keep them at bay or even surpass them?
Are there any official sources on this subject?
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Post by vertigomez on Mar 14, 2017 15:37:26 GMT
Well, Tevinter cult has the advantage of a crapton of mages. In DAO, Duncan considers a handful of mages to be worth more (militarily) than dozens of ordinary soldiers iirc. And that's not even touching on blood magic and demon summoning and whatever else the Venatori get up to, plus the non-magical cultists.
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Post by bloodmagereaver on Mar 14, 2017 16:21:45 GMT
Well... Well, Tevinter cult has the advantage of a crapton of mages. In DAO, Duncan considers a handful of mages to be worth more (militarily) than dozens of ordinary soldiers iirc. And that's not even touching on blood magic and demon summoning and whatever else the Venatori get up to, plus the non-magical cultists. In DAO a sigle mage could nuke the entire game clear and despite them being nerfed during play the lore still treats them as the big shots they are. Still, my doubt is in regards to the scale of the forces at play. How many soldiers Tevinter, Orlais or the Qunari have? We know that the Blight had at least 15000 darkspawn in Ostagar against 5000 Fereldan troops of various backgrounds but both were, at the time, minor forces compared to the military of Tevinter, Orlais and the Qunari. If we guess the Venatori numbers at some 10000 and the Red Templars at some 15000, this means that Orlais and the Inquisition have some 25000 personnel involved in the Battle of the Arbor Wilds. I know that Orlais would never send it's entire army to help the Inquisition but the game makes it quite clear that Corypheus has the nation matched and just needs it to fall into disarray to conquer it. From the information given in DAI my guesses on army numbers are: Inquisition - 15000 Orlais - 20000 Ferelden - 10000 Nevarra - 15000 Tevinter 50000 Qunari - 40000
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Post by loquacious on Mar 14, 2017 16:35:29 GMT
I found this to be an interesting read: dragonage.answers.wikia.com/wiki/What%27s_the_weakest_to_strongest_nations_in_thedas
I think people are lead to believe that after the last march, Tvinter went from a global view to a more isolated one (like opposite of america going from an isolated country before WWII to an international superpower). I think the country wanted nothing more to do with anyone else and as the years passed it seemed like every country has been ignoring each other, unless you deal with grey wardens, or trade merchants. I know that each country has its own forces for sure, but in terms of sharing them under a common banner....its difficult to say. I think Tvinter is stuck on power and has limited that power craze to be internal to its nation. (Dorian pointed out that they want to create the perfect mage with looks, power, prestige, etc.) Also remember that the venatori is only a segment of his army as they had templars and demons too thanks to red lyrium. Those templars came from all over Thedas.
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Post by xerrai on Mar 15, 2017 3:28:59 GMT
Well its important to remember that Cory and his forces actually conscript/attract a decent amount of disenfranchised people.
It has been implied that many non-mage Venatori are actually former slaves, meanwhile Samson is largely trying to attract people who have been use and abused by the Chantry (which mostly translates to all those who have been dishonorably discharged from the templar order). Then of course there are those that were simply captured and corrupted a la red lyrium. So for all that Cory may siphon off Tevinter's military forces + mages/templars, a good portion of his forces merely relies on utilizing those people society tries to ignore.
And there are always a lot of disenfranchised people in settings reminiscent of the middle ages.
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Post by House Targaryen on Mar 15, 2017 3:52:28 GMT
I found this to be an interesting read: dragonage.answers.wikia.com/wiki/What%27s_the_weakest_to_strongest_nations_in_thedas
I think people are lead to believe that after the last march, Tvinter went from a global view to a more isolated one (like opposite of america going from an isolated country before WWII to an international superpower). I think the country wanted nothing more to do with anyone else and as the years passed it seemed like every country has been ignoring each other, unless you deal with grey wardens, or trade merchants. I know that each country has its own forces for sure, but in terms of sharing them under a common banner....its difficult to say. I think Tvinter is stuck on power and has limited that power craze to be internal to its nation. (Dorian pointed out that they want to create the perfect mage with looks, power, prestige, etc.) Also remember that the venatori is only a segment of his army as they had templars and demons too thanks to red lyrium. Those templars came from all over Thedas.
Didn't figure Orlais to be such a military threat. They seemed like a bunch of dandies who is more concerned with their looks and status than to be taken seriously as a military threat.
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Post by loquacious on Mar 15, 2017 4:18:53 GMT
I found this to be an interesting read: dragonage.answers.wikia.com/wiki/What%27s_the_weakest_to_strongest_nations_in_thedas
I think people are lead to believe that after the last march, Tvinter went from a global view to a more isolated one (like opposite of america going from an isolated country before WWII to an international superpower). I think the country wanted nothing more to do with anyone else and as the years passed it seemed like every country has been ignoring each other, unless you deal with grey wardens, or trade merchants. I know that each country has its own forces for sure, but in terms of sharing them under a common banner....its difficult to say. I think Tvinter is stuck on power and has limited that power craze to be internal to its nation. (Dorian pointed out that they want to create the perfect mage with looks, power, prestige, etc.) Also remember that the venatori is only a segment of his army as they had templars and demons too thanks to red lyrium. Those templars came from all over Thedas.
Didn't figure Orlais to be such a military threat. They seemed like a bunch of dandies who is more concerned with their looks and status than to be taken seriously as a military threat. I would agree but they still do some damage, and also have a Navy that was mentioned in the books. I mean Cailen was asking for a back up army from them so he must have respected their forces or their queen...I also think that the templars were a bigger force that their chevaliers, especially after the civil war.
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Post by thats1evildude on Mar 15, 2017 4:31:08 GMT
I found this to be an interesting read: dragonage.answers.wikia.com/wiki/What%27s_the_weakest_to_strongest_nations_in_thedas
I think people are lead to believe that after the last march, Tvinter went from a global view to a more isolated one (like opposite of america going from an isolated country before WWII to an international superpower). I think the country wanted nothing more to do with anyone else and as the years passed it seemed like every country has been ignoring each other, unless you deal with grey wardens, or trade merchants. I know that each country has its own forces for sure, but in terms of sharing them under a common banner....its difficult to say. I think Tvinter is stuck on power and has limited that power craze to be internal to its nation. (Dorian pointed out that they want to create the perfect mage with looks, power, prestige, etc.) Also remember that the venatori is only a segment of his army as they had templars and demons too thanks to red lyrium. Those templars came from all over Thedas.
Didn't figure Orlais to be such a military threat. They seemed like a bunch of dandies who is more concerned with their looks and status than to be taken seriously as a military threat. The Orlesians have a pretty strong military culture. That foppishness is decieving.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Mar 15, 2017 9:40:52 GMT
Well i suppose as a country always at war or anticipating war with the Qun they'd need to have a pretty big military. What with the Qun having a pretty intense conscription practice and advanced war machines.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Mar 15, 2017 12:44:09 GMT
By the time you march into the Arbor Wilds we are told that the Inquisition forces, bolstered by the Orlesian army finally matches the numbers commanded by Corypheus. This made me wonder, exactly how big are the military forces in Thedas for a Tevinter cult bolstered by either the bulk of the Templar Order or the Rebel Mages to match a major power such as Orlais? I know Tevinter, even in it's decadent state, is by far and large the most populous country with the largest military but how large it is for just a splinter faction to threat the second most populous country with the second largest military? Is Tevinter that much of a behemoth or were the Templar Order/Mage Rebellion so numerous that they could rival the entire Orlesian military? If Tevinter has become so powerful again then how big is the Qunari military to keep them at bay or even surpass them? Are there any official sources on this subject? I don't think it's ever been implicitly stated, whos has the largest or most numerous military. It's left to us as gamers to assume that this nation or that kingdom, is powerful or not. I can't see them ever making a difinitive statement on the subject either. I generally, wouldn't go too much on the "seeming" populous we see in the game as what cities we see, always seem alittle light on actual people, same goes for various battles we have seen depicted. I'd definately agree that Orlais, the Qunari and the Tevinter Imperium are the three big boys, so to speak. The Qunari possess, technical advantages born of science and they also have organisation and discipline beyond that found amongst the other two. I suspect then, that they might have a numerically smaller force, than either Tevinter or Orlais. Relying on their disciplined, canon wielding forces to methodically and relentlessly beat down their opponents and utilising more mercenary, guerilla tactics, for surgical strikes, with Ben-Hassrath agents and infiltration groups, to disrupt supply and command. It would make more sense then for Qunari forces to be smaller in number, but far more specialised and dangerous in equal number engagements. Orlais is your quintessential medieval fuedal army, With Noble generals and landed elite, horse mounted cavalry and lower class infantry and knights, backed up with moderate mage and templar support and basic siege weaponry common to the period. I should imagine their forces are larger, numerically than the Qunari, but smaller than Tevinter. Specialised (read, Trained) chevalliers, would make up the bulk of the command structure, dedicated and discipined in combat, with an empahsis on mounted cavalry charges and heavily armoured, on foot melee. The rank and file infantry would be far more numerous, but far less well equiped and likely less well trained to boot. Orlais does have bardic culture however so I should imagine they wouldn't lack for logistical support in the form of scouts, spys and ofcourse, political leverage, giving Orlais otherwise rather rigid and inflexible military force (a rather narrow approach to warfare, imo) some much needed breathing room when they are liekly to engage more versatile or irregular forces. Tevinter, while being much smaller as a nation, perhaps only a (rather large) city state and it's immediate environs, would likely field the largest force numerically. Which might seem abit unlikely, but, slavery plays a large roll in this regard. I suspect that the back bone of Tevinters army, is less it's mages and more, the vast number of undisciplined, poorly trained and equiped slaves and lower classes they can throw at an adversary, backed up by a significant number of "wild card" mages, in command positions, who's willingness to sacrifice the peons in defense of Empire, would mean a highly aggressive and unpredicatble enemy, that, by all rights, ought to fall apart when encountering even token resistance, but instead, excels by brute force and the element of surprise. The Magisters ofcourse, are expert politicers, they know the value of information and subterfuge, such that the Qunari readily admit, that one of the reasons they have struggled to subdue Seheron, is because Tevinter agents know just how to stir up trouble amongst the occupied populace, all to their own advatnage. Tevinters forces, then, I suspect are the most numerically numerous, but with the largest proportion of which, being rank and file, poorly trained and equiped, and least disciplined, but perhaps the most versatile in terms of thinking outside the box (or using magic to turn the box into a porcupine of death!) The persever by virtue of their willingness to do what others would not and as such, are the most irregular and unpredictable of the the big three. So militarily speaking, the Qunari are the Prussians of the late 1700's, Orlais are the French of medieval europe and Tevinter.... I can't think of an analogue that fits them that well (those pesky mages!) But they would likely be similar to most bronze age empires, perhaps Ancient Persia or perhaps, communist Russia during the WWII period. The other nations, it's harder to say as we don't know much about them. Antiva ofcourse has the "threat" of the crows and her myriad alliances with just about everybody, so they don't have a standing army, Rivain is too mysterious at present to say what kind of martial culture they possess. Fereldan is much like medieval england to Orlais medieval France, in terms of military philosophy and structure. I suspect the parallel is similar in terms of numbers and organisation aswell. Anderfells liekly have a smaller force than most, but likely the forces they do have, are likely to be fierce and uncompromising in battle, making them unlikely conquerors but horrible effective warriors. The Dalish, while perhaps being numerous, are likely to pose little real threat to any of the big three, their cultures are more akin to nomadic celts of western europe, fine at skirmish engagements, but serious battle, they would struggle to adapt their smaller numbers and skirmish tactics to the rigors of pitched battle and while they have at least two ro three mages to every clan, that isn't really enough to turn the tide of such large scale conflicts. The free marches, I see as similar to the italian city states of the renaisance period, with plenty of hired mercenaries and a kind of condotierre culture, in which enterprising commanders gain recognition, fame and fortune, by virtue of the ability to command and win. They'd have smaller forces, but they'd be some of the best commanded and most flexible in terms of strategy and skills (aswell as flexible loyalties!) Effective, given the right circumstances. But this is all my guess work. So all of the above could be totally wrong!
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 17, 2017 22:10:45 GMT
I don't think that the Venatori forces could have matched Orlais at its full strength or even considerably weakened. Otherwise why would there have been a need for the demon army in order for Corypheus to conquer Orlais? In WoT2, in the entry on Gaspard, it recounts an engagement he was involved in where he was recovering Orlesian territory and a town of 2,500 people that had been annexed by Nevarra. It says how Celene gave him the command of the Orlesian armies on the condition that he lost no more than 1,000 soldiers in the battle, saying "I will not see the blood of ten thousand good Orlesian souls stain the ground in defence of a town of twenty-five hundred". This suggests that the standing army in Orlais amounted to around 10,000. By the time of DAI both sides had been engaged in the civil war with losses on both sides, so the official army was likely severely depleted. Even so, it was clearly stated that it was the confusion caused by the assassination of Celene that led to the conquest of Orlais by the demon army in the dark future.
The majority of the Red Templar/Mage rebels are used to assault Haven. Many of them perish in the avalanche. Still, even if they escaped, the forces are not that large as they only matching the forces available to the Inquisition at that time. In Asunder the number of mages that reach Andorals Reach only number in the hundreds. Whilst they might pick up further individuals as they crossed Thedas to Ferelden, I think the number of mages who arrived in Redcliffe Castle likely amounted to no more than 2,000 and likely less. The same would be true of the Templars at Therinfall. This seems to fit with the idea that the demon army is needed to successfully conquer southern Thedas. Whilst Corypheus would have brought some recruits with him from Tevinter, they would be in the form of specialist mage troops, plus their slaves bodyguards, rather than large divisions of regular soldiers.
When we fight the Venatori in the Arbor Wilds we are doing so with whatever forces can be gathered in the wake of the various conflicts that have taken place in the preceding months. I think it is highly unlikely that either side exceeds 10,000 in number. To put it into the context of a real world encounter, at the Battle of Agincourt the British troops numbered around 9,000. Whilst the French numbers given by different sources are varied (and sometimes vastly inflated) it seems likely they would have been between 12-15,000. Neither side had been hampered by having fought a lengthy civil war prior to the engagement.
The forces that Tevinter and the Qun command in the normal state of affairs is entirely different. Both have been engaged in and on/off war for centuries and so will have been keeping troops regularly recruited and trained. Even so, they would be deployed across a wide area, at least on the Tevinter side of things, whilst the Qunari would be limited to the number of ships they could utilise to transport the bulk of their army from their stronghold at Par Vollen.
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