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Post by goishen on Mar 19, 2017 17:17:40 GMT
I just want SAM to STFU.
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 19, 2017 17:22:28 GMT
Yeah this is Mac Walters again all right, didnt expect the story to pan out any greater. But its been like this since the ME2 tbh. I mean there Shepard died, he crashed into the planet and burned in the atmosphere and then they managed to bring him back...? And the man never questions this, never ponders it, never makes more effort to go deeper what cerberus might have done to him(just trust Miranda and TIM yes), he just merrily accepts it all as "i got better" "ok lets help cerberus". The series has been downhill from there lore wise, cause they just keep handwaving things away when its convenient. I'm not that sure it is exactly the same. The resurrection of Shepard is at least addressed in passing, especially in ME3 where in the Cerberus base, for just a moment, we have a glimpse of the desperation Shepard harbours: “Maybe I’m just a high tech VI who thinks it is Shepard. I don’t know…” It’s just a moment, it’s very little and it doesn’t really add anything to the plot. Never the less it’s there: a moment where the mask of commander Shepard crumbles and we see the person beneath. In ME:A, I haven’t seen anything of the sort up until now: yet, the situation of Ryder is nothing to laugh about. But our Pathfinder doesn’t seem to relate with the situation he/she is in in any meaningful way: “Let’s go adventuring, while my relatives are dead or in coma.” And it gets only worse when all the other characters are ok with Ryder’s proposal, without questioning or asking. Without offering comfort or addressing the ethical problems regarding an illegal AI plugged to their brain…
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 19, 2017 17:27:58 GMT
Why? It wouldn't be better. We would have even less interactions than what we already have with an AI plugged to our very brain. Now that would have zero sense and it could be even disquieting: one would ask what SAM is thinking… or even doing to us. "Do you like the upgrades, Ryder?"
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Post by Addictress on Mar 19, 2017 20:58:44 GMT
2) ANDROMEDA ISSUES.
Gameplay wise, I must admit I find zero sense in the resources SAM adds to the table for Ryder. For starters, where does it came from the eezo you use when switching from a tech loadout to a biotic one? Duh? Is Ryder a latent biotic? Habitat 7 atmosphere screwed us over when we breathed its air? Just think about it a moment… And while I understand (but don’t condone) the limitation to only 3 powers at a time, I really don’t understand why SAM has been needed to justify the ability of the player to learn multi-disciplinary abilities. Forcing such a mechanic AND using SAM to justify it, seems silly and overcomplicating. Mmhh… more like over overcomplicating it: like solving a problem that wasn’t even there applying quantum physics to create it… You BECOME the pathfinder: it is in the job description to learn different abilities to complete your job. Should I believe among the 100’000 colonists we brought with us, no one was willingly to earn some credits to teach our Ryder how to best push, throw or simply mod our omnitool to incinerate things? You want to plug Ryder to an AI because it’s a core element of the plot? Please do: I’m very curious to know what is the aim and the need, but forcing SAM to be plugged just to fight (again, something in the Pathfinder’s very job description) seems shallow and empty as reasons go. And more: while Alec was an idealist (how much misguided is moot here) and built a wonder of an AI, he plugged SAM to himself out of free will, knowing full well the dangers of such an action. And I’m even cool with it… But after: a) daddy dearest passes away we discover that he got beyond the backs of everyone, reshaping human condition on the road to organic and synthetic reunification c) he created an AI able to interface with organics brains (this is the kind of shit that changes the course of history forever people!). d) that very AI is now directly plugged to our brain e) the AI itself can’t explain everything to us because Alec himself kept files locked away from us f) our brother/sister is in a coma g) we must save the day, outnumbered, outgunned and in uncharted territory. The reaction of our character to all of the above can’t simply be “It’s cool, let’s go adventuring.” WHAT? The other characters too should have at least SOME reserves about all of this: T’Perro though? “Thanks for sharing this with me, Ryder, but we’re cool. Just keep an eye on Drack please.” If you really want Andromeda to possess a lighter tone than ME:A, you MUST balance those elements with the direction of the story and justify them in a believable way. I can’t stay silent about this, sorry: for me, it is terrible writing if a character is subjected to all of the above with zero mental consequences.Can we sympathize fully with a character that has no character? Who is unable to relate with the plot elements he is the protagonist of? Of course, not! And it’s terrible when that same character is the main hero of the story… From what I’ve seen until now, the premises for ME:A are at best a confused mish-mash of word shattering, important revelations who are immediately devaluated for no good reasons. Wouldn’t have been better to stay silent about them at all? To try something else? Putting something in a plot because “rule of cool” is the poorest kind of act I can think of to begin a new story: it doesn’t work, it is nonsensical and it leaves the worst kind of impression. I really hope the rest of the game will solve and address all of this, but I have to admit the premises are not good for now… and we’re one week before launch.
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Post by The Elder King on Mar 19, 2017 21:13:36 GMT
Ryder didn't really have much of a choice. It seems he'd die if they try to separate the two. Also, he doesn't go exploring for fun. He's trying to follow his father's footsteps in helping humanity finding a home in Andromeda. I don't like how the passage of power goes as well as the responses to Alec's death, but he's not leaving the twin for fun.
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 19, 2017 21:20:30 GMT
Ryder didn't really have much of a choice. It seems he'd die if they try to separate the two. Also, he doesn't go exploring for fun. He's trying to follow his father's footsteps in helping humanity finding a home in Andromeda. I don't like how the passage of power goes as well as the responses to Alec's death, but he's not leaving the twin for fun. My point exactly!!!! Still, we don’t have a single moment in which all of this is ever addressed (I’m not talking about properly. I’m talking in general at all). It’s like Ryder doesn’t even care about anything. Is he a sociopath? Is SAM screwing with our head? A mix of both? And in the meantime, all of the problems implied by the mere existence of SAM remain unconfronted.
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Post by The Elder King on Mar 19, 2017 21:24:38 GMT
As I said, I agree about the problem with dealing with the tragedies. Although Sara had a more emotional option. I didn't address SAM's problems because I want to see them for myself. One thing is clear, they decided to follow in the footsteps of the 'humanity is special and awesome' troupe that enveloped the trilogy (from the start). Is it possible Alec was helped by some quarians about developing SAM?
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 19, 2017 21:26:50 GMT
As I said, I agree about the problem with dealing with the tragedies. Although Sara had a more emotional option. I didn't address SAM's problems because I want to see them for myself. One thing is clear, they decided to follow in the footsteps of the 'humanity is special and awesome' troupe that enveloped the trilogy (from the start). Is it possible Alec was helped by some quarians about developing SAM? Why should they have? Quarians hate AI...
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Post by The Elder King on Mar 19, 2017 21:30:58 GMT
As I said, I agree about the problem with dealing with the tragedies. Although Sara had a more emotional option. I didn't address SAM's problems because I want to see them for myself. One thing is clear, they decided to follow in the footsteps of the 'humanity is special and awesome' troupe that enveloped the trilogy (from the start). Is it possible Alec was helped by some quarians about developing SAM? Why should they have? Quarians hate AI... they do, but Tali's father researched on them to find a means to control/destroy them, as Xen. There might be some quarians that he found to help him.
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 19, 2017 21:37:18 GMT
Why should they have? Quarians hate AI... they do, but Tali's father researched on them to find a means to control/destroy them, as Xen. There might be some quarians that he found to help him. But this only happens during ME2: the AI was launched between ME1 and ME2. And even then, it is stated in ME:A Alec begun his research by 2165/2170 circa, well before Reaper tech was available to Cerberus.
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Post by indrexu on Mar 19, 2017 22:01:04 GMT
In ME:A, I haven’t seen anything of the sort up until now: yet, the situation of Ryder is nothing to laugh about. But our Pathfinder doesn’t seem to relate with the situation he/she is in in any meaningful way: “Let’s go adventuring, while my relatives are dead or in coma.” You, um, haven't been looking very hard. Hell, expressing concern over your sibling's medical status is one of the first things Ryder can do in the game. In both the trial and in gameplay released since on YouTube, there are ample opportunities to communicate personal distress over your family's situation (or not, if that's your thing).
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 19, 2017 22:13:29 GMT
In ME:A, I haven’t seen anything of the sort up until now: yet, the situation of Ryder is nothing to laugh about. But our Pathfinder doesn’t seem to relate with the situation he/she is in in any meaningful way: “Let’s go adventuring, while my relatives are dead or in coma.” You, um, haven't been looking very hard. Hell, expressing concern over your sibling's medical status is one of the first things Ryder can do in the game. In both the trial and in gameplay released since on YouTube, there are ample opportunities to communicate personal distress over your family's situation (or not, if that's your thing). Ok, let me rephrase that: Expressing concern in any relatable way. There is a difference between a stoic conduct and being emotionless. And by the time we earn the Tempest, the exploring leitmotiv has been forced down our gullet and everyone is ok with it. Problems? What problems? Oh, you mean the Nexus uprising? A little thing, a minor thing: we had a splinter group who needed to be put down by the Krogan. Then they left and we kicked out the Krogan for good measure. See? No problem: paranoia, panic and fear running rampant on the Nexus? Nope, no problem at all. Well, you know, some vocal elements of the crew. But nothing worthy of interest, really. Just like your father’s death. Now take your ship and go drill some holes in the sand of Eos… I've heard of 30 meters tall robots who fart candies down there. Not really impressed here. Seriously, they wanted Andromeda to be happier? Lighter? Then why the hell bothering with adding such elements to the plot? And anyway, this thread has more to do the problem tied to the existence of SAM and how they have not been addressed or even considered.
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Post by The Elder King on Mar 19, 2017 22:21:22 GMT
they do, but Tali's father researched on them to find a means to control/destroy them, as Xen. There might be some quarians that he found to help him. But this only happens during ME2: the AI was launched between ME1 and ME2. And even then, it is stated in ME:A Alec begun his research by 2165/2170 circa, well before Reaper tech was available to Cerberus. The AI launch between ME2 and ME3. How is that relevant? AI can still be created. One was created by random people and we found it on the citadel in ME. The problem with SAM is how advanced he is, and quarian help might justify partially. Although I think the explanation will at least be influenced by 'humans are awesome and can do everything'.
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 19, 2017 22:36:37 GMT
But this only happens during ME2: the AI was launched between ME1 and ME2. And even then, it is stated in ME:A Alec begun his research by 2165/2170 circa, well before Reaper tech was available to Cerberus. The AI launch between ME2 and ME3. How is that relevant? AI can still be created. One was created by random people and we found it on the citadel in ME. The problem with SAM is how advanced he is, and quarian help might justify partially. Although I think the explanation will at least be influenced by 'humans are awesome and can do everything'. No, sorry: AI is launched in 2185 so at most at the beginning of ME2. Not after. And it becomes relevant because as you say, SAMs AI are way too much advanced for their time: if their development begun in 2165/2170 where the know-how to build them came from? From Reaper tech? Mmhh… not possible, or at least highly improbable. If the tech came from Cerberus, TIM should have had SAMs smart AI through ME2 and 3. Which isn’t the case. Did Alec stumble upon reaper tech, and not only resulted immune to indoctrination, he managed to crack open the tech and retrofit it? Talking about improbable… all the while keeping it all hidden, from Alliance, the Council, the Shadow Broker and Cerberus? Did the Quarian helped? Again, why they should have? They hate AI, to the point they wish for all AIs to be erased. Has Alec encountered the only deviant Quarian who wishes to create more AIs just out to spite to his/her entire species? And even then, SAMs are waay too smart for being Geth like AI. Hell, at this point the Geth themselves could have helped Alec in developing SAMs. It would be as probable as any other idea… They remain all unbelievable and preposterous though.
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Post by The Elder King on Mar 19, 2017 22:47:31 GMT
There are already two Admirals that considered working on AI. I seriously doubt there aren't a quite a few more open to the idea. While I'm certain there'll be a part of ridicolousness on it, SAM isn't necessarily THAT more advanced. While is connection to the human Pathfinder leads to extraordinary things, Geth can also be uploaded and 'live' with the quarians and help them. In any case, I do expect over the top stuff in Mass Effect, since ME2. Combined with the human-special way the IP was designed for..we get SAM.
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Post by indrexu on Mar 19, 2017 22:55:28 GMT
Ok, let me rephrase that: Expressing concern in any relatable way. There is a difference between a stoic conduct and being emotionless. And by the time we earn the Tempest, the exploring leitmotiv has been forced down our gullet and everyone is ok with it. Problems? What problems? Oh, you mean the Nexus uprising? A little thing, a minor thing: we had a splinter group who needed to be put down by the Krogan. Then they left and we kicked out the Krogan for good measure. See? No problem: paranoia, panic and fear running rampant on the Nexus? Nope, no problem at all. Well, you know, some vocal elements of the crew. But nothing worthy of interest, really. Just like your father’s death. Now take your ship and go drill some holes in the sand of Eos… I've heard of 30 meters tall robots who fart candies down there. Not really impressed here. Seriously, they wanted Andromeda to be happier? Lighter? Then why the hell bothering with adding such elements to the plot? And anyway, this thread has more to do the problem tied to the existence of SAM and how they have not been addressed or even considered. Again, the options are there, and sometimes they are pretty emotional. You just haven't looked very hard. Or you don't like them, which is not the same thing as them not existing. Or you don't like that they're, y'know, optional, which I personally think was probably smart on BW's part because of how many people threw a shitfit about Shepard's emotional state in ME3. (MYYYYY glorious space hero/ine would NEVAH have hallucinations or weird dreams or express existential doubt. Mom! MOMMMM!") Same thing with the uprising, really. It forms much of the basis for what you do on Kadara and Twochanka. There are sidequests you can start (and in one case finish) relating to it before you even go to Eos. The fact that the Pathfinder files it in the "too hard/not an immediate concern" tray compared to the more immediate imperative of getting supplies for the Nexus by starting the Eos colony doesn't mean that those things were totally overlooked. If you're looking for talk about SAM, I think that the "up until now" (the end of the 10-hour trial?) is probably the most important part of your OP. The Pathfinder's relationship with SAM is obviously the subject of significant content. The Pathfinder gets a couple of opportunities to express concern over the existence of that relationship before the trial's storyline is even over. I'm fine with that for now. Maybe you're not, and that's okay too.
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 19, 2017 22:59:05 GMT
There are already two Admirals that considered working on AI. I seriously doubt there aren't a quite a few more open to the idea. While I'm certain there'll be a part of ridicolousness on it, SAM isn't necessarily THAT more advanced. While is connection to the human Pathfinder leads to extraordinary things, Geth can also be uploaded and 'live' with the quarians and help them. In any case, I do expect over the top stuff in Mass Effect, since ME2. Combined with the human-special way the IP was designed for..we get SAM. It's not really the same thing, for me at least: Geth are uploaded on hardware which is part of the Quarians' suit (and only if Quarian and Geth are forced to make peace by Shepard). The glaring difference is that SAM not only interfaces directly with organic brains (and apparently physiological differences among species are a non-sequitur for SAM, as we see in Andromeda with the other pathfinder). It's able to rewrite connections and create new memories too. Something not even Cerberus could do with Shepard’s clone… I have difficulties to accept that one man (toxic to alliance brass up to the point Andromeda was his only way out) did better in AI research than an amoral organization with access to unlimited founds and reaper tech ever could.
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Post by The Elder King on Mar 19, 2017 23:11:21 GMT
Where was it shown SAM can create new memories? We don't know if Alec worked alone. And he had decades to work on SAM. Cerberus 2 years. And I don't think he did necessarily a better job. EDI's functions are different, as her role.
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 19, 2017 23:17:18 GMT
Ok, let me rephrase that: Expressing concern in any relatable way. There is a difference between a stoic conduct and being emotionless. And by the time we earn the Tempest, the exploring leitmotiv has been forced down our gullet and everyone is ok with it. Problems? What problems? Oh, you mean the Nexus uprising? A little thing, a minor thing: we had a splinter group who needed to be put down by the Krogan. Then they left and we kicked out the Krogan for good measure. See? No problem: paranoia, panic and fear running rampant on the Nexus? Nope, no problem at all. Well, you know, some vocal elements of the crew. But nothing worthy of interest, really. Just like your father’s death. Now take your ship and go drill some holes in the sand of Eos… I've heard of 30 meters tall robots who fart candies down there. Not really impressed here. Seriously, they wanted Andromeda to be happier? Lighter? Then why the hell bothering with adding such elements to the plot? And anyway, this thread has more to do the problem tied to the existence of SAM and how they have not been addressed or even considered. Again, the options are there, and sometimes they are pretty emotional. You just haven't looked very hard. Or you don't like them, which is not the same thing as them not existing. Or you don't like that they're, y'know, optional, which I personally think was probably smart on BW's part because of how many people threw a shitfit about Shepard's emotional state in ME3. (MYYYYY glorious space hero/ine would NEVAH have hallucinations or weird dreams or express existential doubt. Mom! MOMMMM!") Same thing with the uprising, really. It forms much of the basis for what you do on Kadara and Twochanka. There are sidequests you can start (and in one case finish) relating to it before you even go to Eos. The fact that the Pathfinder files it in the "too hard/not an immediate concern" tray compared to the more immediate imperative of getting supplies for the Nexus by starting the Eos colony doesn't mean that those things were totally overlooked. If you're looking for talk about SAM, I think that the "up until now" (the end of the 10-hour trial?) is probably the most important part of your OP. The Pathfinder's relationship with SAM is obviously the subject of significant content. The Pathfinder gets a couple of opportunities to express concern over the existence of that relationship before the trial's storyline is even over. I'm fine with that for now. Maybe you're not, and that's okay too. Well, having watched the gameplay of people who had a review copy of ME3, I managed to go pretty far with the story. So... I rest my case: I’ve found Ryder unable to properly relate about the plot elements he/she is presented with and with the gravity of the situation around him/her. Especially in the beginning, especially regarding Alec death and the integration with SAM. And especially about the reveal of it very nature: that in particular possesses a glaring moment of wrongness for me. It’s not that our Ryder is a stoic, or that his/her previous experiences in the Milky way shaped him/her to be responsible and ready to be a Pathfinder. It’s a mantle that it falls on us for reasons yet to be clarified. Do you prefer to have a more direct example? Fine. I can agree to differences in personal perception, or head canons, but please consider the first or second T’Perro conversation on the Tempest, when Ryder explain to the Asari doctor he/she has an illegal AI plugged directly to his/her brain without safety limiters. T’Perro simply doesn’t care and brushes it all off quickly, only thanking Ryder for the confidence. I think such a low-key reaction is plainly wrong, especially considering the established lore in universe, and considering that such a major reveal happens after the death of Alec Ryder. I really find it impossible to relate with such a moment.
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Post by The Elder King on Mar 19, 2017 23:19:38 GMT
Well, the twins know probably a lot about SAM. It's likely Bioware they decide to force us on being more accepting on AI compared to the average human in the ME for the background of the pc. Not what I want in terms of options, but there are humans and aliens that feel that way.
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 19, 2017 23:24:04 GMT
Where was it shown SAM can create new memories? We don't know if Alec worked alone. And he had decades to work on SAM. Cerberus 2 years. And I don't think he did necessarily a better job. EDI's functions are different, as her role. It is explained in the briefing videos regarding SAM and the pathfinder team: it is stated that it can create thoughts like they were your own. And ok, let's admit Alec managed to work on the SAMs for decades: still, where the resources, technology, technological know-how, funds and permission came from for all of this? The Alliance didn't back his research: Alec was toxic to them. The Council? They are even more cowardly than the Alliance in regards to AIs research: and an AI able to plug to organic brains and generate fake memories? The Turian councillor would have declared Exterminatus at the mere idea of it.
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Post by The Elder King on Mar 19, 2017 23:26:12 GMT
Where was it shown SAM can create new memories? We don't know if Alec worked alone. And he had decades to work on SAM. Cerberus 2 years. And I don't think he did necessarily a better job. EDI's functions are different, as her role. It is explained in the briefing videos regarding SAM and the pathfinder team: it is stated that it can create thoughts like they were your own. And ok, let's admit Alec managed to work on the SAMs for decades: still, where the resources, technology, technological know-how, funds and permission came from for all of this? The Alliance didn't back his research: Alec was toxic to them. The Council? They are even more cowardly than the Alliance in regards to AIs research: and an AI able to plug to organic brains and generate fake memories? The Turian councillor would have declared Exterminatus at the mere idea of it. Ah, got It. I thought you meant he could implant new memories on Ryder. My mistake. I know about that. I don't know. But I seriously doubt he worked alone. And while I don't really want it to be true, the possibility he worked with Cerberus is not far fetched.
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 19, 2017 23:33:03 GMT
It is explained in the briefing videos regarding SAM and the pathfinder team: it is stated that it can create thoughts like they were your own. And ok, let's admit Alec managed to work on the SAMs for decades: still, where the resources, technology, technological know-how, funds and permission came from for all of this? The Alliance didn't back his research: Alec was toxic to them. The Council? They are even more cowardly than the Alliance in regards to AIs research: and an AI able to plug to organic brains and generate fake memories? The Turian councillor would have declared Exterminatus at the mere idea of it. Ah, got It. I thought you meant he could implant new memories on Ryder. My mistake. I know about that. I don't know. But I seriously doubt he worked alone. And while I don't really want it to be true, the possibility he worked with Cerberus is not far fetched. At first I thought it too, but it would be too strange to not have had other SAMs around for ME2 or 3 at this point. The implications are simply too big: i.e. just having SAMs could have prevented Shepard from going rogue from Cerberus. Imagine it, chipped and plugged to an AI whispering that “humanity first is good”… or at least, it could have begun like that.
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Post by The Elder King on Mar 19, 2017 23:46:40 GMT
Working with Cerberus doesn't mean he'd necessarily share the info with TIM. We'll know if he worked alone soon, in any case.
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Post by geoffreyomega on Mar 20, 2017 0:44:51 GMT
Considering what we know, the galaxy has been experimenting with AI and VI since a lot of time. Quarian conflict with AI put the council to make strict regulation and have VI locked in some parameters to prevent fully awareness. Humans have created AI, or should I say a rogue VI in ME, before ME2 and they are the latest race joining the council so they might not agree yet with everything that is on the table. Also, AI IS the particularity of the milkyway because each civilization developed along the path the reapers created. They study the relation of organic and synthetic and so AI is sort of a legacy to the milkyway. It's also too valuable to not consider going on a new galaxy and if properly taken care, the assistance of an AI that serves the initiative just like EDI served sheppard and cerberus might really be helpful. Also do notice that we don't know yet if there's any relation with cerberus, SAM could be an embryo destined to be developed later to a much greater thing. Lastly: I think SAM is the most essential characteristic from the plot. The Kett are very interested into the remnant but seems to not understand their technology while Alec Ryder interfaced very easily thanks to SAM help with the remnant technology.
Andromeda native species may have evolve a different path since there are supposedly no reaper in andromeda or none they could have learn from so the remnant are the closest thing they get to study and they haven't been doing it for centuries. Which is why AI seems very special to them and they want to gain access to their technology maybe to dominate the galaxy and the only way to do so, is to get access to SAM playing a critical role in the game.
It's just my bet here.
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