vit246
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Post by vit246 on Mar 18, 2017 17:09:45 GMT
Briala, former retainer of Celene and Marquise of the Dales, is de facto leader of the Dales, alongside with all the leaders of Alienages and Clans. A great gathering is gathered at Halamshiral or whatever where they will discuss the future of the new nation. - Will it be a monarchy or republic or oligarchy or magocracy? Hereditary or elective? Constitutional or autocratic? Parliament-style assembly of nobles, priests, mages, and burghers / council of elected elders with voting power(issues and kings like Dwarven Assembly) or a ASOIAF Small Council of ministers? - How feudal or centralized will it be? Hows the local government? Locally elected Elders of the village/town/citiy? Royally appointed governors? Who gets to have armies/Emerald Knights? The state government and/or nobles? Professional standing army? Feudal levies? Militia? Knightly Orders? Religious Militant? - Whats the dominant aristocracy? Merchant Princes and/or Nobles? On account of Successful City Elves mostly being merchants? Who gets to be nobles? Are the clans "noble houses"? Are mages automatically nobles? - Whats the policy on humans currently living in the Dales for hundreds of years? Sgregation? Exile? Fraternization Will there be a long-term breeding-out problem since humans spawn humans only? - Whats the mage policy? An informal loosely organized gathering of Keepers and mages? A centralized state-sanctioned formal college located in the Capital? - Whats the religion policy? Dominance of Andrastianism and Dalish-ism / Creator-ism / Evanuris-ism? - Whats the foreign policy? - Most importantly, what is the tax policy? *GASP* Cuz this one makes or breaks nations.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 18, 2017 17:17:18 GMT
Probably monarchy, or some clan based form of government. The keepers (mages) would be the nobles, I think.
Some kind of magocracy, but probably not same (similar?) as Tevinter. I suppose.
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Post by vertigomez on Mar 18, 2017 18:02:25 GMT
I think any kind of official policy here - forced segregation - would go south quickly. I'm all for elves getting out from under the boot, but there are elves with human friends, lovers... even human children. I can't imagine a big ol' NOPE sign that doesn't care about individual circumstances or feelings. Can you imagine a romanced Merrill telling Hawke (or even Varric or Isabela or her other friends) to fuck off 'cause they're not elves?
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 18, 2017 18:10:18 GMT
Probably Kingdom, or some clan based form of government. The keepers (mages) would be the nobles, I think. Some kind of magocracy, but probably not same (similar?) as Tevinter. I suppose. Meh, once a smallish group of people gets a bit of power, you'll see how hard they fight to keep it. Despite being oppressed for centuries, I doubt the elves will be the exception to that rule of "human" nature. After all, they have been written by humans with "human" desires for things like vengeance and power, so they are not immune to those things. I wouldn't be surprised if they enacted laws to keep humans out or segregated. I think any kind of official policy here - forced segregation - would go south quickly. I'm all for elves getting out from under the boot, but there are elves with human friends, lovers... even human children. I can't imagine a big ol' NOPE sign that doesn't care about individual circumstances or feelings. Can you imagine a romanced Merrill telling Hawke (or even Varric or Isabela or her other friends) to fuck off 'cause they're not elves? We have examples in our own history of those things being accepted by the majority, even if a minority, each of whom knows their "decent human," objects.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 18, 2017 18:16:12 GMT
Probably Kingdom, or some clan based form of government. The keepers (mages) would be the nobles, I think. Some kind of magocracy, but probably not same (similar?) as Tevinter. I suppose. Meh, once a smallish group of people gets a bit of power, you'll see how hard they fight to keep it. Despite being oppressed for centuries, I doubt the elves will be the exception to that rule of "human" nature. After all, they have been written by humans with "human" desires for things like vengeance and power, so they are not immune to those things. I wouldn't be surprised if they enacted laws to keep humans out or segregated. You're right, I'm not sure, that they will be better, but their personal relationship would not erased so quickly and easily... but I suppose there would retorsions because of too big friendship.
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Post by vertigomez on Mar 18, 2017 18:16:25 GMT
Nightscrawl Certainly. I just think it would inevitably go south. And also I'm just put off by segregation in general.
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Post by xerrai on Mar 18, 2017 18:45:44 GMT
I think any kind of official policy here - forced segregation - would go south quickly. I'm all for elves getting out from under the boot, but there are elves with human friends, lovers... even human children. I can't imagine a big ol' NOPE sign that doesn't care about individual circumstances or feelings. Can you imagine a romanced Merrill telling Hawke (or even Varric or Isabela or her other friends) to fuck off 'cause they're not elves? I hardly doubt they'll do something major like downright exiling all humans (I imagine that at least a good portion of the elves will try not to piss off neighboring countries too much). But I do see them at the very least making laws that prohibit humans from holding government/noble titles. But at the same time, I can totally see them trying to lessen human influence in their country by making them distinctly separate from the elves when it comes to citizenship (kinda like what the humans have now in most, if not all countries that are not Par Vollen). Perhaps not in the form of human alienages, but most likely in limiting the property ownership of humans by say, only making it as strong as the favor of the elven owner of the land (be it lord or town council). Or ensuring that any and all business conducted with the nation has to be with eh permission/guidance of an elf and not just humans. Personally I think their biggest problem, by far, is going to be the Chantry. While I don't see them exiling the Chantry since most city elves are Andrastian, I do see the potential for problems if the elves try to install themselves more prominently in the religion. I could totally see a movement where female elves would want to be priests in the Orlesian Chantry in an attempt to consolidate power in their homeland, or even a proposal to have a different Chantry entirely given how the elves will likely have different views on key aspects within the Chant (namely magic, other races among the priesthood, the Canticle of Shartan, etc.). Neither of which will mesh well with the Andrastian Chantry in Orlais. That's even counting how Creator worship will likely be vying for religious dominance as well, with some conservative elves (namely the Dalish) trying to install it as the religion of the state/nation. Plus a little sect trying to worship the Creators and the Maker at the same time (like Ameridian and some city elves) which may encounter resistance on both sides.. If they really want to keep that nation, they are going to have to appease the Chantry in some form or fashion. Practically all attempts to have different version of the Chant have ended in violence, and I do not see how this will be any different.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2017 20:18:58 GMT
It would probably be led by Briala herself but after her Keppers of the Dalish clans would pick someone amongst themselves or will rule like a group. Dalish elves would be considered nobles and city elves commoners, and every clan would form a noble house. In short term they won't let humans live in their country but after a while that might happen as well, and half-elves would be made slaves or something. Since the Dalish don't allow too many mages in one clan, the country may seek a solution like templars(less brutal probably). Evanurism and Andrastianism would coexist but official religion will be Evanurism and no Chantries allowed. I think they'd make the same mistake as the first Dales and attack Orlais or something. Tax policy would be like any other country less tax for Dalish, more for city elves since they're "corrupt"
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Post by opuspace on Mar 19, 2017 2:18:54 GMT
Whatever government is established would require cooperation and alliances with human rulers and/or lawmakers. At least initially. Wycome was the closest to giving us an idea of what a successful government for elves might look like and from where the story is going, it sounds like it's telling us that success will come from climbing through human politics. Because of that, I don't see them becoming truly isolationist like last time.
It'd probably be based off of a mageocracy if it's the Dalish who lead the establishment, modeling after their Keepers, but if it's city elves leading the government, it looks like it would lean towards a democracy?
This is just casual guessing with no real serious idea about how it'd go. It'd depend so heavily on what is giving them enough leverage to keep from being smacked down by rival kingdoms.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 19, 2017 15:54:00 GMT
People seem to forget that whilst the Keepers took over the leadership of the clans in exile, back in the old Dales they were not the political leaders but purely the religious leaders and lore keepers (hence the name). In fact according the some lore of the Dalish, the clans are the descendants of the nobility in the time of the Dales. I've always been a bit sceptical about this since 250 years from the establishment of the Dales until its dissolution was a relatively short time for a ruling aristocracy to establish themselves. Nevertheless, it is likely that whether it was an hereditary set up or a meritocracy, the initial Dalish probably did comprise the families of the leadership at the time of the Exalted March on the Dales. The reason the tradition then grew up of the Keepers being in charge was likely they had been entrusted with getting those families to safety and since most of the adult leaders were back fighting to the death, it fell to the Keepers to take responsibility for leadership of the younger people. I should imagine that is why the emphasis then seemed to be on preserving what they could of the culture and the people until such time as a homeland could be restored to them. It may also be why there seemed to be some sort of expectation among the City elves that the Dalish would eventually come back for them, based on how Briala viewed them. This would also seem confirmed by the storyteller in Sabrae clan in DAO who specifically stated that they were preserving their culture for the sake of all elves, both Dalish and City. This attitude was also confirmed in a codex in DAO. So the attitude of Thelhen was in fact out of step with mainstream Dalish rather than the reverse.
So getting back to how a new homeland might be ruled. Even in the clans they would appear to have different people in charge of particular aspects of life. So just as they have a chief hunter, hearth keeper, craftsperson and halla keeper, probably they would have similar roles in the New Dales in charge of keeping the population fed, provisioned with tools and weapons, etc. There would also likely be a new set up of Emerald Knights to patrol their borders to guard against hostile intrusion and deal with any problems that arose within the state. Each region would have its own council of elders and I would imagine would then elect one of these to be their representative in the central government. This would seem to be in keeping with how this has been managed in the clans and how city elves will have experienced being given power in places like Denerim and Wycome. Having a High King/Queen as overall nominal head of state might be helpful in providing an overall leadership and party with whom foreign powers would initially make contact. The person in this role would need to be recognised by the ruling council in much the same way the Landsmeet approve the monarch in Ferelden. However, it would not be hereditary but based on merit. Initially this would be Briala, provided she was independent and not still mixed up with Celene. Otherwise a different head of state would need to be elected.
The Keepers would likely be in charge of religion once more and lore keeping generally, possibly with the help of the former storytellers. Whether it would be felt imperative that the Keepers should still be mages would be open to debate. Much would depend on whether they are aware of the more recent discoveries about their history. Assuming that it is not generally known, Keepers would initially have automatic places on the council of elders but not automatic leadership of it.
Religion is going to be a sticky one. Whilst most Dalish would still be faithful to the Creators, most city elves would have been brought up Andrastrian and might not be willing to switch. I think some accommodation might be reached in allowing worship of the Maker alongside the traditional Dalish religion but I very much doubt they would be willing to entertain the Chantry having an official presence there, unless this is under Divine Leliana in which case they could insist on elven clerics to run the local Chantry, possibly with input from humans raised within the borders of the state.
Back in DAO the storyteller said that they could possibly learn from the City elves how best to dealt with the human neighbours to avoid the problems of the past. So first off would be the recognition that any humans within the borders should be allowed to remain, provided they didn't cause trouble. They should also be allowed a seat on the local councils and in the central body. Land ownership might be a bigger issue. The elves are hardly going to be happy if the majority of the land is in the ownership of human nobles, so assuming that the establishment of the New Dales immediately puts the entire territory into the hands of the State, some sort of scheme would have to be set up whereby any citizen can apply for their own plot to work and that would include human peasants as well as elven. Taxation would be based on land ownership but could also be levied on businesses within towns.
Foreign policy would depend to a fair extent on how the neighbouring states viewed the development. I'd opt for establishing diplomatic and trade relations with every state that has a history of problems with Orlais, so isolating the state most likely to give trouble. I should imagine that Ferelden would appreciate having an ally between them and Orlais as a buffer zone, whilst Nevarra pressurising the northern borders would take the heat off the Dales in the south. Establishing good relations with Orzammar would also be a good idea, if nothing else to ensure a steady supply of lyrium should the mages need it.
Ignoring the stupid interpretation of the 3 mage rule in DAI, the use of magic would be regulated by the mage Keepers and the specialised division of the Emerald Knights, the Fade Hunters, just as it was in the old Dales. Each region or even each settlement would have its own educational establishments for both mages and non mages with the mages living freely in the community, just as happens in Rivain and among the Avvar. Specialist research facilities might well be established away from main settlements, where experienced mages could improve their knowledge and exchange ideas without endangering the general populace. However, these would be open, not closed communities. Once again, it would be the Fade Hunters, who would be comprised of both mages and mundanes, who would monitor these places of learning and deal with any problems that arose.
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vit246
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Post by vit246 on Mar 19, 2017 16:52:43 GMT
I headcanon that Briala, being a dirty Orlesian, will advocate for a strong centralized hereditary monarchy. Take steps to curb the power of what counts as Elven nobility to threaten the Crown like Louis XIV and Versailles. Or maybe have their families live in the Capital bearing the expenses like a feudal Japanese hostage system. But she might concede to an Estates General. All Elven mages will be centralized and concentrated into a collegiate order in the Capital and subordinate to the Crown. Establish a Grand Cleric and a High Priest of Creator-ism in the Capital. Emerald Knights subordinate to the Crown. Etc.
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