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Post by ilsen on Mar 20, 2017 4:30:38 GMT
Recently replayed venerable ol' DAO. (Filling the void between the next Elder Scrolls and DA4.) In order that the slides come up in the epilogue, here is my take on the perfect ending: 1. Softened Alistair sole ruler, Loghain executed A. Hardening Alistair is right out because of the things you have to say to do it. It's just not anything I'd ever say. And he's not a hard guy, he's a softie. He'll be a good king in the end, and I am confident that if anything happens to me he will step up rather than let the kingdom fall into disrepair. B. Marrying him to Anora is out. She is a real viper and I can never actually trust her, even if she is a good queen for at least a time. C. Marrying Anora myself is out. Even though she is the hottest character in DAO. See above about the trust and viper issues. Plus she's super bossy. D. Marrying Alistar (as female PC) is out. This is probably the second best outcome, but the trouble with this one is that you're going to have to let him shag Morrigan. I'm not down with having my hubby wade through that swamp. E. Loghain's gotta go. Only reason I can find to keep Loghain alive is to throw him at the tentacle monster in the Fade later, but losing Alistar is just too much. After all we had been through, Alistair earned his vengeance. Plus Loghain was a twat. You can make a case for letting him take the hit on the archdemon so you don't have to do the dark ritual with Morrigan, but then you must marry Alistair to Anora. Then you are back to the whole "wedding him to a viper" thing. No bueno, friendo. (Unless you really want to kill Alistair or have him end up a drunk, but I don't consider those true options for non-sociopaths.) 2. Elf PC is ChancellorThis makes me the de-facto ruler with a softened Alistar, and that's how I like it. I am Elf so that my good works can hopefully ease racial tensions. I will also use my power to improve the lot of the Denerim alienage. This is a more direct way of achieving that than simply asking to be made Bann, which comes with other issues. Circle independence also causes other issues. For a power hungry male PC, this is the only real outcome. 3. Ashes saved, dragon killedNot much to say here. 4. Irving saved, circle restoredSimply have a soft spot for mages. Siding with templars at best enhances distrust of mages. 5. Stop slavers, no bann, Alistair ruler, Soris not in prison
Obviously you can't let the slavers go on. And it's gotta be Alistair because Anora is just too tough on the elves (among the other reasons listed above). Lastly, having any bann causes trouble and precludes being chancellor, a position from which you can help them anyway. 6. Save Connor, no deal with demon
Natch. 7. Make Kailyn rich
A case can be made for returning the sword and making Bevin a famous adventurer, but that doesn't tell us anything about how Kailyn fared while he was off adventuring. Given that Kailyn cares for her brother, it seems likely that he prospers too when she becomes wealthy and marries Teagan. 8. Bella runs tavern
A case here can also be made for giving her money to open a brewery in Denerim. I say that everyone's better off if she remains in Redcliffe and it's more satisfying to have her take over the tavern where she was once at the beck and call of Lloyd. Redcliffe has had a tough time and it needs some good people there. We've already had Kailyn and Bevin run off to Denerim, let's not send Bella away too. 9. Have Zathran end the werewolf curse
Natch. 10. Bhelen king
This is one of those choices that you'd make by accident or only after first doing Harrowmont. Harrowmont's a nice guy, but he's just too garbage. We need some help with the darkspawn and Bhelen does that. Sometimes you need a strong leader more than a nice one. 11. Branka killed
Branka is just too much of a bad seed. Even if she is allowed to live, we don't get the benefit of the golems for long, and she just cloisters herself in the deep roads anyway, doing god knows what. No, she has to go. 12. Burkel not helped
This is another decision that we can probably only make with hindsight. I'm not big on the Chantry anyway, so I don't really need to push the envelope in terms of dwarf religion, and I don't need Burkel's blood on my hands. 12. Dagna helped
A strong case can be made for not helping her. In the end, it just seems like the right thing to do. The Divine can "ponder" an exalted march, but that's just bluster. And Dagna comes back to help me with that miscreant Samson later. 13. Morrigan ritual performed
Morrigan is bae. You can say what you want about having a kid with an old god soul, but I think it turned out okay. Flemeth and Solas end up with it anyway. Benefit of hindsight here, obviously, but I can't turn Morrigan down anyway. 14. Morrigan sole romance, ring given
Morrigan is bae. Morrigan is like Linda Hamilton in Terminator 2. If you can't handle a strong independent woman, then you can have your softened Leliana and listen to her talk about shoes all day. 15. Flemeth "killed"
Morrigan is bae. Group pic:
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Post by Mark7 on Mar 21, 2017 21:59:55 GMT
So I'm sociopath because I don't care about the well being of Alistair ,well good to know Mr Perfect ending.
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Post by Prince on Mar 22, 2017 5:02:37 GMT
"Perfect ending"...most players mean those endings where they win and get what they want,that basically sum-up the whole OP.
Their concept of Perfect ending (made possible by the invincibility curtain that every Bioware protagonist gets)is something that feels so glossy and fake to me.
I guess everyone loves to live in their own bubbles made of dreams and lies.
My favourite endings in the case of DAO are The US and the RE ending. One represent Heroism,the other forgivness.
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Post by phoray on Mar 22, 2017 5:25:14 GMT
Perfect for who? 4 races, 10+ countries, mages, templars...
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Post by Iddy on Mar 22, 2017 12:02:04 GMT
My problem with hardening Alistair is that it's absolutely disregarded in the other games and comic books as well.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 22, 2017 12:13:56 GMT
My problem with hardening Alistair is that it's absolutely disregarded in the other games and comic books as well. I suppose because it is no longer so funny ... But this is a good decision, especially if he will be king.
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Post by mike3207 on Mar 22, 2017 14:20:42 GMT
Perfect ending is to marry the King/Queen-sorry op.
Not a murderer so Loghain survives. There's no way you can call it a perfect ending if you start it with capital punishment.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 22, 2017 14:34:50 GMT
Perfect ending is to marry the King/Queen-sorry op. Not a murderer so Loghain survives. There's no way you can call it a perfect ending if you start it with capital punishment. You can be merciful, and give him a chance to redeem himself, but this is not our world, the rules are different. Loghain isn't an innocent lamb, he deserved capital punishment according to the law, so: executing him, not a wrong choice. But don't kill/execute someone isn't a big sin, on the contrary, a noble deed. I think, there is no wrong choice here.
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Post by Mark7 on Mar 22, 2017 18:14:54 GMT
Perfect ending is to marry the King/Queen-sorry op. Not a murderer so Loghain survives. There's no way you can call it a perfect ending if you start it with capital punishment. Loghain isn't an innocent lamb, he deserved capital punishment according to the law, so: executing him, not a wrong choice. Which is the law that say that Loghain deserved the capital punishment? There are noo such laws at the Landsmeet,Alfstanna was quite good on explaining the terms of the duel;it's Alistair that demands the capital punishemnt not any Fereldan's law.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 22, 2017 18:26:06 GMT
Loghain isn't an innocent lamb, he deserved capital punishment according to the law, so: executing him, not a wrong choice. Which is the law that say that Loghain deserved the capital punishment? There are noo such laws at the Landsmeet,Alfstanna was quite good on explaining the terms of the duel;it's Alistair that demands the capital punishemnt not any Fereldan's law. Yes. I'm sure that Ferelden is very sensitive to modern human rights. To executing him for the of jeopardizing the country, what for he was responsible, was natural.
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Post by oyabun on Mar 22, 2017 18:27:03 GMT
I too don't remember anyone saying taht those who lose the Landsmeet should be killed all they said is the one who wins there wins the Landsmeet.
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Post by oyabun on Mar 22, 2017 18:29:51 GMT
Yes. I'm sure that Ferelden is very sensitive to modern human rights. To executing him for the of jeopardizing the country, what for he was responsible, was natural. That doesn't change the fact that it was never said in the game that the Ferelden laws demand the death of the losers of the landsmeet....It's seem to me that those are individual choices.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 22, 2017 18:32:56 GMT
Yes. I'm sure that Ferelden is very sensitive to modern human rights. To executing him for the of jeopardizing the country, what for he was responsible, was natural. That doesn't change the fact that it was never said in the game that the Ferelden laws demand the death of the losers of the landsmeet....It's seem to me that those are individual choices. Not demand, but allow it. Just as Alistair's execution.
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Post by Mark7 on Mar 22, 2017 18:39:49 GMT
Which is the law that say that Loghain deserved the capital punishment? There are noo such laws at the Landsmeet,Alfstanna was quite good on explaining the terms of the duel;it's Alistair that demands the capital punishemnt not any Fereldan's law. To executing him for the of jeopardizing the country, what for he was responsible, was natural. By that logic it's only natural to put on the capital punishment the DR-runners as well for having jeopardized the whole world(not just one country) when they saved the spirit of an Archdemon by putting it into the hands of a witch through illegal blood magic and later on handeled to some dangerous Elven God that contributed in blowing up the Conclave. As you can see building justification to kill people is more easy than you can imagine.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 22, 2017 18:42:01 GMT
The point is: someone prefers to kill him, because he seems committed terrible sins, and someone prefers to let redeem himself. I think, both decisions are morally acceptable.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Mar 22, 2017 18:46:54 GMT
By that logic it's only natural to put on the capital punishment the DR-runners as well for having jeopardized the whole world(not just one country) when they saved the spirit of an Archdemon by putting it into the hands of a witch through illegal blood magic and later on handeled to some dangerous Elven God that contributed in blowing up the Conclave. As you can see building justification to kill people is more easy than you can imagine. Oh...Oh that was a low blow AHaha!
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Post by Catilina on Mar 22, 2017 18:50:15 GMT
To executing him for the of jeopardizing the country, what for he was responsible, was natural. By that logic it's only natural to put on the capital punishment the DR-runners as well for having jeopardized the whole world(not just one country) when they saved the spirit of an Archdemon by putting it into the hands of a witch through illegal blood magic and later on handeled to some dangerous Elven God that contributed in blowing up the Conclave. As you can see building justification to kill people is more easy than you can imagine. What's your problem with blood magic? Illegal? Na und? So many things are illegal. For example hiding from the Templars as a mage, escape from the Circle and destroying your phylactery. Not every law-breaking is sin! The DR is perhaps a dangerous choice. But not necessarily jeopardize the world. But Loghain already did it. Persecuted and killed Grey Wardens in Blight, sold his people to slave... yes, according many people he deserve capital punishment. And in Thedas, the death punishment is not too rare thing.
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Post by Mark7 on Mar 22, 2017 19:21:12 GMT
Oh...Oh that was a low blow AHaha! These kind of hypocrites loves to look at the speck of sawdust in others’ eyes and pay no attention to the plank in their own. What's your problem with blood magic? Illegal? Na und? So many things are illegal. For example hiding from the Templars as a mage, escape from the Circle and destroying your phylactery. Not every law-breaking is sin! The DR is perhaps a dangerous choice. But not necessarily jeopardize the world. But Loghain already did it. Persecuted and killed Grey Wardens in Blight, sold his people to slave... yes, according many people he deserve capital punishment. And in Thedas, the death punishment is not too rare thing. I'm just following the patterns of your own rationale to bend it against yourself. You appealed to the laws to justify the murdering of Loghain,I appelaed to the laws to justify the same punishment for all the DR-runners,and now you are saying that some laws are justified and makes sense while those who you don't like don't make sense and should be violated.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 22, 2017 19:38:28 GMT
What's your problem with blood magic? Illegal? Na und? So many things are illegal. For example hiding from the Templars as a mage, escape from the Circle and destroying your phylactery. Not every law-breaking is sin! The DR is perhaps a dangerous choice. But not necessarily jeopardize the world. But Loghain already did it. Persecuted and killed Grey Wardens in Blight, sold his people to slave... yes, according many people he deserve capital punishment. And in Thedas, the death punishment is not too rare thing. I'm just following the patterns of your own rationale to bend it against yourself. You appealed to the laws to justify the murdering of Loghain,I appelaed to the laws to justify the same punishment for all the DR-runners,and now you are saying that some laws are justified and makes sense while those who you don't like don't makes sense and should be violated. You didn't use my own weapon against me, because these are two different things: 1. Yes: there good laws and bad laws. This is not a contradiction if you don't insist to laws, rather the common sense, justice. 2. I don't wrote, that to execute Loghain is a good thing, I just wrote, that this isn't wrong, and this does not contradict to Thedas' laws. So: who executed Loghain, did it well, if his Warden thought, that Loghain deserve that. BUT who didn't executed Loghain also did well, because the mercy always good.
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Post by Mark7 on Mar 23, 2017 2:05:24 GMT
You didn't use my own weapon against me, because these are two different things: 1. Yes: there good laws and bad laws. Of course I did and it is even more evident from the last post of yours. "There are good laws and bad laws" -The good ones are those whom I approve of and the bad ones are those of whom I don't approve of and that's my rationale to condemn Loghain and defend the HoF.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Mar 23, 2017 2:34:25 GMT
You didn't use my own weapon against me, because these are two different things: 1. Yes: there good laws and bad laws. Of course I did and it is even more evident from the last post of yours. "There are good laws and bad laws" -The good ones are those whom I approve of and the bad ones are those of whom I don't approve of and that's my rationale to condemn Loghain and defend the HoF. I agree,if anyone is using that argument in order to justify the murder of Loghain(or of anyone else)under the violation of law as any act that fails to abide by existing law then they must apply the same rigor upon themselves otherwise they lose all credibility. The blood magic is illegal not just in the south but in Tevinter as well and for good reasons since it increase the chances of demonic possession,it allows mind control,and it is often used to ghater magical power from the blood of unwilling hosts. Blood magic is rarely permitted only to the GW when they need to use it against the darkspawns,the DR however doesn't fall in that category since it actually helps the old god to avoid his end.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 23, 2017 2:36:22 GMT
You didn't use my own weapon against me, because these are two different things: 1. Yes: there good laws and bad laws. Of course I did and it is even more evident from the last post of yours. "There are good laws and bad laws" -The good ones are those whom I approve of and the bad ones are those of whom I don't approve of and that's my rationale to condemn Loghain and defend the HoF. Oh, I see, you start to understand me. Yes. There are laws, what someone can't approve, for example, that people are property items. These laws must break at (almost) any cost. So: Assisting a runaway slave is maybe a law-breaking, but not a sin, in fact. I don't really defend HoF, just understand. In addition: Loghain a responsible politician, who failed. The Warden only an accidental hero, who isn't responsible for anything.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 23, 2017 2:45:35 GMT
Of course I did and it is even more evident from the last post of yours. "There are good laws and bad laws" -The good ones are those whom I approve of and the bad ones are those of whom I don't approve of and that's my rationale to condemn Loghain and defend the HoF. I agree,if anyone is using that argument in order to justify the murder of Loghain(or of anyone else)under the violation of law as any act that fails to abside by existing law then they must apply the same rigor upon themselves otherwise they lose all credibility. The blood magic is illegal not just in the south but in Tevinter as well and for good reasons since it increase the chances of demonic possession,it allows mind control,and it is often used to ghater magical power from the blood of unwilling hosts. Blood magic is rarely permitted only to the GW when they need to use it against the darkspawns,the DR however doesn't fall in that category since it actually helps the old god to avoid his end. Against the Templars, for example, the best tool the blood magic for a runaway mage, but need to use carefully, because it really is very dangerous. Jowan could escape only by using blood magic.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Mar 23, 2017 3:29:52 GMT
I agree,if anyone is using that argument in order to justify the murder of Loghain(or of anyone else)under the violation of law as any act that fails to abside by existing law then they must apply the same rigor upon themselves otherwise they lose all credibility. The blood magic is illegal not just in the south but in Tevinter as well and for good reasons since it increase the chances of demonic possession,it allows mind control,and it is often used to ghater magical power from the blood of unwilling hosts. Blood magic is rarely permitted only to the GW when they need to use it against the darkspawns,the DR however doesn't fall in that category since it actually helps the old god to avoid his end. Against the Templars, for example, the best tool the blood magic for a runaway mage, but need to use carefully, because it really is very dangerous. Jowan could escape only by using blood magic. That doesn't change the fact that those are all illegal spells and those who use it without any kind of concession are criminlas for the law.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 23, 2017 3:34:23 GMT
Against the Templars, for example, the best tool the blood magic for a runaway mage, but need to use carefully, because it really is very dangerous. Jowan could escape only by using blood magic. That doesn't change the fact that those are all illegal spells and those who use it without any kind of concession are criminlas for the law. Against a wrong law, (almost) everything is allowed. The Chantry's Circle law is a wrong law.
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