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Post by dzejkob on Sept 1, 2016 0:43:27 GMT
Czechoslovakia annexed Some Polish lands earlier Yeah, maybe. But Poland chose fucking bad time to exploit Czech's weakness, right after their national tragedy of losing Sudetenland. Poland basically was Hitler's pal in this crime. And yes, Polish pilots fought for both Poland and Britain. But the British and the French and the Yankee fought for Poland, too. They failed to liberate Poland from Stalin, true, but they did succeed to liberate it from the Nazis. And while the Soviet rule was terrible, the Nazi regime was fucking hell. As i stated everyone back in Poland thinks it was a mistake, no one is proud of this crime. (no country is pure clean after all, so its important to admit to mistakes) But the way they just failed to liberate it from Stalin was atrocious, on peace talks in Paris the allies just gave in to the soviets, which allowed them to destroy our home army and national underground, and as i said before it wasn't only Poland, it was majority of the communist block countries. In all honesty not sure what would be worse soviets or nazis they are equal of each other. (i recommend watching the second video i posted on the first post in this thread, it shows just how bad soviets were as well)
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Post by masterwarderz on Sept 1, 2016 0:58:46 GMT
This defense of the USSR is far too common among those unaware of the horror show that was Western Europe under Communist rule.
I mean if arbitrary numbers is the basis of how horrible a state was then Stalin's rule of Europe far out strips Germany's.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Sept 1, 2016 4:04:32 GMT
Unfortunately it seems like it, Polish troops weren't even invited as only country that was on allies side In London victory celebration, Churchill sold Poland, Czech republic (just Easter/middle Europe to soviets) and specially this if its true: wgospodarce.pl/informacje/20592-bitwa-o-anglie-polacy-obronili-brytyjczykow-ci-kazali-im-za-to-zaplacic-zobacz-kwoty(main points translation) Poland had to pay UK £107 650 000 For airplanes, ammunition, bombs etc In battle of Britain. So for our pilots to fight and spill blood for British, in battle of Britain.. They got their cash from polish gold that was deposited after 1939 in Canada, hope those who wanted it so badly chocked on it. My great uncle died in battle of Britain as a pilot, so this greatly pisses me off. England didn't care about Poland like many other countries, after all for a country that was an empire at a time a lot of other countries were just pawns. Well England and France and many other countries then gave that Gold to USSA (yes, that's how it's spelled) for lend-lease. And also deposited more later. But Nixon gave them the finger in 1971 and told them to fuck off and didn't give them their gold back Without Polish work on Cyclometer and the Bombe, the British may never have cracked the Enigma code. But they are so keen of dismissing that fact. If Nixon hadn't removed the Gold Standard and didn't make the Dollar Standard, European countries would have taken too much gold from USA and it would have made Dollar fall to a degree of Zimbabwe, Weimar etc. currencies. Because if you had too much dollars and not enough gold, your dollars would be worthless and increase huge inflation (in Pre-Nixon situation). It would have damaged the US economy and it couldn't be the No.1 superpower anymore. Just imagine Dollars with these numbers: LOL But people don't understand these fiat currencies these days. I had to research it. WW2 was a bless for USA at first, then Europeans demanded their stuff. Dollar Standard is an ultimate curse for the USA. Since Bush and Obama have made too much debt with their high expense and Federal Reserve printing Dollars like insane without any gold to back it up, sooner or later when China and other parts of the world lose their trust in Dollar, USA will be finished and will go to Chaos for a few years. That huge numbers on the bills, vast rebels and stuff.
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Post by Voluptuous Volus on Sept 1, 2016 7:00:32 GMT
^ Yeah I know. But that is coming today too. Once the FED starts QE4, the dollar will go off the cliff.
You can't create money out of thin air and expect people to take it forever.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Sept 1, 2016 7:17:15 GMT
*Cheers* finally someone reasonable!
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Post by Voluptuous Volus on Sept 1, 2016 7:20:42 GMT
*Cheers* finally someone reasonable! Don't get me started on todays Keynesian economic policies by private assholes who think they know better what the whole world combined needs Because soon turns into
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Post by PhroX on Sept 1, 2016 7:35:00 GMT
This defense of the USSR is far too common among those unaware of the horror show that was Western Europe under Communist rule. I mean if arbitrary numbers is the basis of how horrible a state was then Stalin's rule of Europe far out strips Germany's. When it comes to Poland at least, the USSR, as abhorrent as it was, was preferable to Nazi Germany (of course, pretty much anything else would've been preferable to the USSR). The Nazi plan for Poland was the removal of over 80% of the population (predominantly through killing, though possibly with some forced resettlement outside of German controlled lands), resettlement of the land with ethnic Germans, and the use of the few remaining Poles as slave labour. And given that they had begun work on this even while in the middle of war, there's little doubt that had they managed to win, it would have carried it out it its conclusion. I'm not trying to defend the USSR here. They are utterly indefensible. But the Nazis were worse. Stalin probably did kill more people overall, but he had a hell of a lot longer to do it and more people to do it to.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2016 7:37:18 GMT
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Post by dzejkob on Sept 1, 2016 7:49:05 GMT
This defense of the USSR is far too common among those unaware of the horror show that was Western Europe under Communist rule. I mean if arbitrary numbers is the basis of how horrible a state was then Stalin's rule of Europe far out strips Germany's. I'm not trying to defend the USSR here. They are utterly indefensible. But the Nazis were worse. Stalin probably did kill more people overall, but he had a hell of a lot longer to do it and more people to do it to. That the main thing we cant really compare comprehensively since we only saw a short period of Nazis as you said, i don't wanna know how many people would die if Nazis stayed around for another 44ish years.
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Post by masterwarderz on Sept 1, 2016 14:37:14 GMT
I'm not trying to defend the USSR here. They are utterly indefensible. But the Nazis were worse. Stalin probably did kill more people overall, but he had a hell of a lot longer to do it and more people to do it to. That the main thing we cant really compare comprehensively since we only saw a short period of Nazis as you said, i don't wanna know how many people would die if Nazis stayed around for another 44ish years. ... Probably still less then a 100 million.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2016 14:38:20 GMT
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Post by Beerfish on Sept 1, 2016 15:25:12 GMT
Should the title of this thread not be herstory?
This day in history, PT Barnum brings Jennie Lind to New York. Aaron burr was acquitted of plotting to annex Louisiana. Germany invade Poland.
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Post by o Ventus on Sept 1, 2016 16:28:29 GMT
This defense of the USSR is far too common among those unaware of the horror show that was Western Europe under Communist rule. I mean if arbitrary numbers is the basis of how horrible a state was then Stalin's rule of Europe far out strips Germany's. Agreed. I mean, don't misunderstand, Hitler was a monster, but Stalin was worse, and the Allies directly enabled him to hold the power that he had. edit: I will say though, that given how relatively short a time span the Nazis existed compared to the Soviets (Stalin's USSR, anyway), the Nazis did more.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Sept 1, 2016 17:09:08 GMT
Fascism is like Neo-Caesarism. Mussolini was the new Caesar of Rome, but at the end he failed miserably because the 2nd world war was too big for his small country.
Note: Hitler rushed and screwed things up in general for him.
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Post by masterwarderz on Sept 1, 2016 17:29:34 GMT
This defense of the USSR is far too common among those unaware of the horror show that was Western Europe under Communist rule. I mean if arbitrary numbers is the basis of how horrible a state was then Stalin's rule of Europe far out strips Germany's. Agreed. I mean, don't misunderstand, Hitler was a monster, but Stalin was worse, and the Allies directly enabled him to hold the power that he had. edit: I will say though, that given how relatively short a time span the Nazis existed compared to the Soviets (Stalin's USSR, anyway), the Nazis did more. You not counting the stuff that went on back in Russia in the 30s?
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Post by masterwarderz on Sept 1, 2016 17:38:18 GMT
Fascism is like Neo-Caesarism. Mussolini was the new Caesar of Rome, but at the end he failed miserably because the 2nd world war was too big for his small country. Note: Hitler rushed and screwed things up in general for him. Uhhh you got that backwards. Italy was Germany's dead weight. Not the other way around.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Sept 1, 2016 17:45:16 GMT
Well, Italy wanted to expand its empire slowly (Albania, Libya, Ethiopia) and it could kinda keep those lands if there was not a massive world war to fight.
I think Italy would actually be ready for a world war in 1944, not in 1939 (Hitler would start WW2 in 1944 I mean or it would happen in a smarter way for Germany by the soviets or the British).
It's really complicated to make an alternative history.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2016 17:56:07 GMT
Honestly Italy was so hilariously incompetent in the Second World War that it boggles the mind.
I thought the Nazis were all about euthanizing tards of that magnitude?
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Sept 1, 2016 19:17:34 GMT
Honestly Italy was so hilariously incompetent in the Second World War that it boggles the mind. I thought the Nazis were all about euthanizing tards of that magnitude? Everybody has an incompetence level. Picking a fight with Greece or Britain was clearly far above Italy's incompetence level. And I'm sure there was a lot of Italian military who knew this very well. But I figure Mussolini got stressed out by territorial greed. He thought he had to act fast, that Italy would get some juicy slices at the peace negotiations table. Hitler invaded Soviet on much the same idea: That the war in the West would soon be wrapped up. Since Italy did pull Germany into costly adventures in the mediterranean region, I think it may have been a big mistake to ally them.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Sept 1, 2016 21:07:42 GMT
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Post by Steelcan on Sept 2, 2016 2:29:00 GMT
anyone fighting alongside the post-Roman Italians should be given bonus points for extra effort
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Post by PhroX on Sept 2, 2016 7:53:44 GMT
Well, Italy wanted to expand its empire slowly (Albania, Libya, Ethiopia) and it could kinda keep those lands if there was not a massive world war to fight. I think Italy would actually be ready for a world war in 1944, not in 1939 (Hitler would start WW2 in 1944 I mean or it would happen in a smarter way for Germany by the soviets or the British). It's really complicated to make an alternative history. Benny the Moose only entered the war when he did because he feared he wouldn't be able to take any territory from France due the latter's rapid collapse. If France had held, he probably would've sat the war out and been able to hold onto his recently conquered land as the Allies wouldn't have been looking for another war after fighting Germany.
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Post by masterwarderz on Sept 2, 2016 9:28:49 GMT
anyone fighting alongside the post-Roman Italians should be given bonus points for extra effort Did I ever mention how my Grandfather spoke of Italians? >.>
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Sept 2, 2016 10:06:26 GMT
I really assume that when Ottomans and Spaniards took the place of Italians as commercial powers, the Italians became lazyasses like how they were in 19th and mid 20th century.
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Post by kizanare on Sept 3, 2016 18:16:10 GMT
You know as far as WW2... my summary
1. Germany lost to Russia, that's really WW2 right there. So much is made of the Western Front, etc, but lets imagine Nazi Germany had 100% health bar and USSR is at 100%. They fight, and then Germany is at 0% and USSR is at like 29% or so. All the other things like Crete or Scandinavia or whatever were pretty immaterial compared to that. There wasn't any secret gimmick or dramatic moment, they just lost... eventually, even if they would generally be successful on a tactical basis, on a strategic level they were ultimately losing due to sheer numbers production of tanks, etc.
The reason WW2 was on such a more pronounced scale (i.e. why Germany was able to take over so many countries) as compared to previous conflicts was because Nazi Germany was really more like Bavaria/Southern Germany getting fully involved.. A lot of earlier conflicts centered on either conflicts between German states or was Prussia/Teutonic Knights doing it's daily duel with Poland or something. It was kind of a completely unified approach, in essence.
2. Russia, perhaps this is more controversial, isn't really "Russia" that we think of really, since it's so huge, I tend to think of all the major European powers (during all those wars) as fighting with "Mongolia" or the "Mongols" in a sense. They tend to always lose deep in the hinterlands, when savants like Vasily Zaitsev or whoever are on the frontlines, but they always steamroll the "Russian state" which is where we think of people being more conventionally Russian.
In that sense, I viewed WW2 as simply a continuation of the previous thousands of years of conflict between kind of Europe-Mongol etc, even though I know they never invaded "Mongolia" those are arbitrary boundaries on a map would not not be at all surprised if the culture of Mongolia was shared with parts of Southern/Central "Russia."
3. As far as moral implications, ideologies, etc. I think at this point it's probably fair to say that both.. er... sides... acknowledge the presence of harms and wrongs, in grand scale. I think the point is... really... quite... cheesy... I know... but no one really wins in a war.
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