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Post by kalreegar on Mar 28, 2017 10:03:00 GMT
I recently replayed the trilogy (renegade + almost everyone dies during the suicide mission), and I noticed one thing.
Obviously, having Mordin and Legion alive in ME3 is better from an "emontional" point of view. Their death scenes are more cinematic and well-written. But they somwhow lack narrative coherence: I've always thought that compared to ME2, they werea little bit inconsistent. Surprisingly, I've noticed that Padok and Legion 2.0 are somehow better, from this prospective.
Mordin/Padok Very simple. During ME2 he strongly believe that genophagy is a good thing, the best solution, and that krogan are very dangerorus on the long term. He killed Maleon, and he believes that his data should be destroyed. He pitied the krogans, yes, but he showed very little remorse and even less "rational" doubts. But during ME3, he has become the greatest supporter of the cure. Ok, the reapers are everywhere, krogan can be good allies, wrex is a capable leader etc... but also during the events of ME2 Wrex is the leader and the reapers are very very close (and he knew it!). The situation is pretty much the same... I wouldn't say that this sudden change of mind is a plot hole, but it's a little bit unrealistic/unlikely. A new character, Padok Wiks, (with different motivations, a different background and a radically different philosophical view), makes more sense.
Legion/Legion 2.0 I've noticed that in ME3 Legion (both versions, original and fake) is a lying, manipulative slicker. The original Legion is almost as manipulative as the the fake one. He uses Shepard in order to free a bunch of geth and to obtain the reapers code. He never informs Shepard about his intentions or goals. He secretly does what he wants, and than he said to Shepard: ehy, that's it. Deal with it. You need me. Finally, if you can't choose the peace option, he said "kill the quarian, and I'll give you the upgraded geth fleet" He exploits you, he gains power and assets behid your back, and finally he put itself in a good barganing position. His actions are like a risky "rise to power", a littlefinger/varys thing.
I understand and respect his motivations: geth are almost fuc*ed (the alternative is being destroyed by the quarians or enslaved and later destroyed by the reapers), and Legion want to free them, and give them a real consciousness. Helping Shepard is the only way.
But what about the lying, manipulative part? It makes sense only with the fake Legion: he doesn't know Shepard, he doesn't trust organics etc. He's nobody's friend. So he lies to them. But what about the original Legion? The loyal Legion? The Legion that used to make such intelligent and intersting speeches about organics? Why shouldn't he trust -at least - Shepard? Doesn't he understand that lying to a friend and an ally can be counterproductive?
So, imo a manipualtive Legion 2.0 makes more sense than a manipulative, loyal original Legion... Let's be clear: not a plot hole, nothing so bad, just a little more narrative consistent.
What do you think?
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Post by Seera1024 on Mar 29, 2017 3:19:54 GMT
Mordin/Padok.
Mordin never said he regretted modifying the genophage prior to the events in the MET, that they were the best course of action given the situation. And that the current situation it was best to cure the genophage. And I think, that deep down he did regret modifying the genophage, but had rationalized it too much in his mind. Which is why I think as soon as the situation gave him a good reason to rationalize curing it, he jumped on it.
Legion/Legion 2.0
Given the situation at the time between the Quarians and the Geth, Legion probably didn't know how Shepard would respond - or any Quarians who heard about it. So far only Legion hadn't been shooting at him Geth wise. And it may have only been something that was discovered last minute and there wasn't time to discuss things. Like while Shepard was in the Geth consensus and shutting the server down - Legion may not have had a "wait until Shepard is free" moment. And the party could have consisted of people who didn't know Legion at all - even without any DLC - Liara, James, Kaiden, Ashley, so the writers couldn't say that Legion just asked a party member about it.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 29, 2017 5:04:15 GMT
I recently replayed the trilogy (renegade + almost everyone dies during the suicide mission), and I noticed one thing.
Obviously, having Mordin and Legion alive in ME3 is better from an "emontional" point of view. Their death scenes are more cinematic and well-written. But they somwhow lack narrative coherence: I've always thought that compared to ME2, they werea little bit inconsistent. Surprisingly, I've noticed that Padok and Legion 2.0 are somehow better, from this prospective.
Mordin/Padok Very simple. During ME2 he strongly believe that genophagy is a good thing, the best solution, and that krogan are very dangerorus on the long term. He killed Maleon, and he believes that his data should be destroyed. He pitied the krogans, yes, but he showed very little remorse and even less "rational" doubts. But during ME3, he has become the greatest supporter of the cure. Ok, the reapers are everywhere, krogan can be good allies, wrex is a capable leader etc... but also during the events of ME2 Wrex is the leader and the reapers are very very close (and he knew it!). The situation is pretty much the same... I wouldn't say that this sudden change of mind is a plot hole, but it's a little bit unrealistic/unlikely. A new character, Padok Wiks, (with different motivations, a different background and a radically different philosophical view), makes more sense. I'll agree that the differing philosophy of Padok Wiks makes more sense in this role. However, my Mordin doesn't necessarily kill Maelon. Also, I feel like Mordin can be made to question his actions when viewing the dead. He knows his actions have contributed to terrible things happening to the krogan. He also doesn't see an alternative that won't end with the galaxy being overrun by violent krogan. "Not guilty but responsible" is the term he uses. That's a mighty fine line. Yes, of course the Reapers changed everything and I think at this point Mordin was seeing potential for a viable future if Wrex and Eve are both alive - something he'd never before seen. To me, that's the sort of thing that makes sense as to why Mordin could change. Legion/Legion 2.0 I've noticed that in ME3 Legion (both versions, original and fake) is a lying, manipulative slicker. The original Legion is almost as manipulative as the the fake one. He uses Shepard in order to free a bunch of geth and to obtain the reapers code. He never informs Shepard about his intentions or goals. He secretly does what he wants, and than he said to Shepard: ehy, that's it. Deal with it. You need me. Finally, if you can't choose the peace option, he said "kill the quarian, and I'll give you the upgraded geth fleet" He exploits you, he gains power and assets behid your back, and finally he put itself in a good barganing position. His actions are like a risky "rise to power", a littlefinger/varys thing.
I understand and respect his motivations: geth are almost fuc*ed (the alternative is being destroyed by the quarians or enslaved and later destroyed by the reapers), and Legion want to free them, and give them a real consciousness. Helping Shepard is the only way.
But what about the lying, manipulative part? It makes sense only with the fake Legion: he doesn't know Shepard, he doesn't trust organics etc. He's nobody's friend. So he lies to them. But what about the original Legion? The loyal Legion? The Legion that used to make such intelligent and intersting speeches about organics? Why shouldn't he trust -at least - Shepard? Doesn't he understand that lying to a friend and an ally can be counterproductive?
So, imo a manipualtive Legion 2.0 makes more sense than a manipulative, loyal original Legion... Let's be clear: not a plot hole, nothing so bad, just a little more narrative consistent.
What do you think? I don't know that I see Legion's actions quite the same as you. He was definitely experiencing emotion since he wanted to save his people. And it was not Legion's intent to kill the quarians. The quarians put themselves in that position by attacking what they believed to be weakened geth. For Legion, the choice was either that the geth are wiped out or that they are upgraded. The upgrades allow them to survive. This is why I often think most of the quarian generals should be shot in the face - or at least exiled. To me, Shepard's trust in the Legion VI is what's at fault.
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Post by kalreegar on Mar 29, 2017 15:47:16 GMT
yeah, it makes sense of course. But there is an alternative (lie to the krogan -> the salarian join the fight), and IMO Mordin is a little too "sure" that curing the genophagy is a good thing. Maybe a more problematic, doubtful point of view could have been more interesting.
I agree that Legion's actions make perfect sense. His "plan" makes sense. But lying to Shepard? Not so much. Let's say that with the geth server he didn't reveal its intentions sooner because while it didn't doubt Shepard, it feared the Commander's allies. He doesn't reveal that he carries the remnants of the reapers code until the very last, and he never explain that his ultimate goal is to upgrade the geth. Shepard is forced to decide in five seconds what to do with the quarians and the geths, considering a totally unexpected situation. Why not telling everything to Shepard, if Legion trust him? It could have been much easier to upgrade the geth and at the same time put the quarian fleet (at least, the civilian) far from the fight. The "upgrade" thing could have been handled and prepared a lot better, if Shepard was informed of that possibility. Not informing Shepard is something that makes sense with the skeptical geth VI... with loyal Legion... meh.
well, it's the only not indoctrinated geth, and it's aid is necessary. but I agree, their relationship is (and should be) based upon suspect and moderate distrust. Choosing the geth over the quarian makes little sense, imo.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2017 15:37:02 GMT
Mordin may strongly believe it was the best option but if you listen to all the dialogue from him you find that he has a lot of regret for it. He came off to me as really disliking that Salarians uplifted them and essentially sees it as their fault. He might not say that specifically, but he talks about how they would have worked out aggression naturally if not interfered with. I think in his collector conversation is maybe where it shows up. He also never wanted to see the krogan die off. Worked very hard to make sure they could still survive. This however seems to leave him feeling some mixed emotions. I think he realizes that it's a horrible thing to do in general but uses logic to justify it. His talk of regrets is pretty clear what he regrets and might be why he wants to retire to a beach.
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