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Post by javeart on Nov 20, 2016 17:54:59 GMT
Oh it's true, the spirit companion, it something that shocked me when I played it and I totally forgot about it now thinking about this. The thing it's he calls him specifically "companion". Now I'm starting to feel like I see abominations everywhere Also, yes, I have never thoguht about how did he thought Corypheus managed to survive this long, but what Solas can and cannot see and do, it's confusing to say the least I don't know what to make either of the fact that he can make Cole forget and block him from accesing his thoughts. That is suppossed to be an abiity of spirits, btw, isn't it? So another point fo the spirti-theory, but what's going with that? He can make him forget, he can block him from his mind if he wants to, but can he also read minds or not? Guess he can't or he doesn't seem to be using that ability much... But, yes, that's the thing, he's probably going to screw it all in the end, if he's going to be the bad guy after all, he needs to get things wrong... And picturing him as a genious of strategy as they do in DAI and being a super powerfull mage/whatever, as he seems to be in Trespasser, plus all the knowledge of the world he has and we don't and all what he can also learn from the Fade, plus the eluvians, the army of spies, etc. kind of seems hard to imagine how he could possibly screw it. So I imagine we're headed for even bigger "WTF, Solas?" moment... (it all breaks my heart, btw)
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Post by phoray on Nov 27, 2016 21:24:08 GMT
Hey all. Crafting a massive fan comic and working on a character.
Anyway, is there anything anywhere at all that says when and where the Arlathvhen occurs other than every ten years? I've done a bit of Wiki but see no mention of locations or specific years.
What pile or artifacts is being passed around at these things? I only recall a book stolen by Morrigan. And that magical repair tool Merrill wanted.
What do you think the population of Dalish actually is? Some research of Wiki has shown me that there are at least 12 clans. How big is a clan? The ones in Origins don't seem very large. 30x12=360, can't possibly by the right amount
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Post by phoray on Nov 27, 2016 21:59:07 GMT
I've been spending some time reading the sections of the Chant of Light in World of Thedas 2 trying to glean from it what Andraste really taught as opposed to what Drakon and his tame Divine Justinia 1 decided should be the interpretation. I was going through the Canticle of Shartan for the umpteenth time, newly reinserted by Leliana in my canon play through, and it suddenly struck me just how subversive it is. It always seemed odd to me that the Chantry would remove it from the Chant when on the face of it, showing the elves that Shartan supported Andraste would surely work in their favour in showing their captives that they should submit to the forces of the Maker. Then I realised that it probably came as a relief that they finally had an excuse to get rid of it because it actually undermines a lot of what they claim about Andraste and certainly what Drakon claimed about himself. It also explains why southern scholars are now at pains to try and prove that Shartan was never really a historical figure but merely a symbol or honorific title given to any rebel elf leader at the time of Andraste.
Let's deal with that last claim first. The scholars claims there are elements in the Canticle of Shartan that bear similarities to an earlier folktale about a "trickster warrior who fought against tyrants". Clearly this is suggesting a link with Fen'Harel; hence the idea often posted by people of Solas being Shartan. If you look at the first part of the Canticle, it could actually refer to any group of rebels fleeing their masters. Then the slaves start to regret their decision and suggesting they should go back and throw themselves at the feet of their former masters. I think this is the part where Shartan used a speech given by the trickster warrior to his followers in the earlier tale in order to inspire his own followers to keep fighting for their freedom. Hence the scholars pointing out the links between the two.
As for the differing accounts about where the revolt originated, that is likely founded in stories of the refugees arriving in Halamshiral, and why Hessarian finally allowed them their freedom. Whilst the Canticle of Shartan was removed from the Chant, Shartan was left in one small section of the following Canticle of Apotheosis, largely because he now had the honorific title of "the Liberator", which may be the Divine of the time did not associate with him or more likely was willing to overlook because most of the faithful would not appreciate the connection. When the humans armies failed Andraste and left her to her fate, the Liberator and a hundred of his people charged the pyre in an attempt to free her. The scholars make much of the affect of Andraste's quiet dignity in the face of death on the crowd but because of the prejudice against Shartan, never seem to have considered the affect of seeing Shartan and his elven soldiers defying the might of the Imperium on the watching slaves. Cynics among scholars have already suggested that Hessarian's conversion to the faith might have been political expediency because of the degree of unrest that Andraste's revolt had produced. I think his decision to finally allow the elven slaves to go free and seek out their promised land might well have been because it was becoming impossible to suppress the uprisings among the elven slave force, inspired by Shartan. When these elves reached their Halamshiral, they likely gave account of their own efforts to free themselves, giving credit to their inspiration. May be their leaders did take the title Shartan in order to inspire them. This would then account for why the location of the original historical Shartan's rebellion tended to vary according to which group of slaves recounted the tale. It should also be noted that whilst Hessarian freed that particular generation of elves, he didn't abolish slavery altogether, some elves remained or returned to be slaves of the Imperium and a new influx of human slaves soon made up the difference in numbers.
So that accounts for the scholars claim that Shartan was not a real historical figure. Now to move onto why the Canticle was included in the first place if it is so subversive. Kordillus' father, Septimus Drakon, was the non mage son of a Tevinter Altus, who made a political match in the south that increased his status there. His wife was elected Gothi or Queen of the Ciriane tribes and that gave her son, Kordillus, a useful base from which to build his power. The Maker had already been adopted as the official religion in Tevinter a hundred years before Septimus came south, so whatever beliefs were held by Tevinter at that time about Andraste would have come with him. According to Dorian, the Imperium have never considered Andraste as anything other than a mortal woman. By contrast, clearly some of the southern tribes did see her as the Bride of the Maker and thus semi-Divine, as evidence by the fertility cult of the Daughters of Song. Kordillus Drakon seemed to favour the Maker Bride interpretation and this was likely because of the way he wished to be viewed. He claimed to have a vision when Andraste charged him with his mission of spreading the faith. There was also a belief in the south at this time (as confirmed by the Guardian of the Shrine) that the Maker only ever spoke to Andraste. So to claim that the Maker had spoken to him might create problems. Yet he could not claim a divinely sanctioned mission if he had been spoken to by a mere mortal. Thus Andraste as the Maker's Bride became the official line of his interpretation of the faith.
The Chant was already being compiled by Justinia before she became Divine, the earliest date for which would be when Drakon was still a boy. She is also credited as having been the only woman general in his army. Whether she was already influencing him as a child before entering his army or whether she was actually part of his mother's forces that later joined his own, they seemed to have shared a similar vision, including the need to eradicate all versions of the faith that did not agree with their own. Having unified the tribes by the sword and founded his Chantry as the official cult of the Maker, only then did Justinia seek to include the story of Shartan into their official Chant. It would seem to have been the final section to be added and was transcribed by clerics from the elves' oral tradition at late as 1:8. If it was important, why had Justinia not bothered with it before? In view of the fact of how subversive the contents are to Drakon's claims, why was it included at all? I think the answer lies in the fact that it was included for political reasons because Drakon knew that the elves were becoming increasingly unhappy about what he was doing in Orlais and at that time the elves were a force to be reckoned with and he could not afford to have hostile neighbours to the south because the 2nd Blight had begun only 3 years previously. So in an attempt to persuade the elves that he was still their friend, he had Justinia acknowledge Shartan in the Chant. He managed to fool Ameridan but from what the latter says, many of his compatriots were less impressed, still viewing Drakon as "no better than Tevinter". Considering the bloodshed that had been committed among faithful followers of the Maker among the humans who had a different version of the faith to his own, I'm inclined to think their view of him was justified, particularly considering he was the grandson of a Tevinter Altus. No wonder the elves were unhappy about his empire building so close to their new homeland.
Finally, why the Canticle of Shartan is so subversive and thus, why I think it does reflect what the elves of the Dales truly believed about Andraste and Shartan at that time. Bear in mind also that scholars admit that they think the modern Canticle is incomplete and there are verses missing, so even today this may be less controversial than it could have been. After Shartan's motivational speech and defeat of the pursuing legion of the Imperium, the Canticle gives an account of Shartan's meeting with Andraste. The elves hear the approach of Andraste's army and Shartan initially goes to investigate alone. He is taken before Andraste and she invites him to tell his story but he refuses until he knows that all his people have been brought to safety. When they have joined him and been given food and drink, Shartan recounts the tale of their uprising and flight. When he has finished Andraste declares:
"Truly, the Maker has called you, just as He called me, to be a Light for your People."
Let me emphasise the significance of this declaration. Andraste recognises Shartan as her equal in the eyes of the Maker. He is to be the Light for his People (the elves), just as she is a Light to her people, the barbarian hordes. She specifically says the Maker called Shartan just as he called her. That means that if Andraste was the Maker's chosen, so was Shartan. It also makes it clear that contrary to later Chantry propaganda, the elves are not inferior in the Maker's eyes. Not only that but if Shartan and his followers honoured their old elven gods as well as the Maker, apparently Andraste did not seem to have objection to this. Of course the gods that the elves honoured were depicted as benign guides and teachers to their followers, rather as the "gods" (spirits) among the Avaar, an offshoot of the Alamaari tribes, to which Andraste belonged. The gods that Andraste specifically targets are those that usurped the Maker's place and even insisted that people reject he Maker before they would help them. In any case, the elves admit that their gods no longer answered them. So really they are just honouring what they stood for, family, community, loyalty to one another, which are things that the Maker seems to support too.
Then Andraste says to Shartan: "The host before you march, bearing His will north, where we shall deliver it to Minrathous, city of magisters, and we will tear down the unassailable gates, and set all slaves free."
Note that in this declaration Andraste actually says nothing about spreading the Chant or even about worshipping the Maker. The Maker's will is that they should set all slaves free. So if Drakon had really been authorised by Andraste, his crusade should have been to complete her work of freeing the slaves, not spreading his Chant.
Then Shartan replies: "The People will set ourselves free. Your host from the South may march alongside us."
Once again Shartan is depicted as Andraste's equal, their armies matching together as an alliance of equals under their respective generals, not her disciple following in her wake. It harks back to the shade of Shartan in the Gauntlet saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Shartan may not be subservient to Andraste or entirely in accord with all of her beliefs but they share a common goal of freedom for their respective peoples and both seem to recognise that is what is important.
Andraste confirms this when she declares: "It is done. We march as one." This is the point where the scholars think some passages have been lost, so the story fast forwards to the Battle of the Valarian Fields. As they engage in the fighting there is a great hymn coming from the united army. What does it sing of? "Those who had been slaves were now free". Again the struggle is for freedom, not simply singing the praises of the Maker.
Then comes the critical point in the battle, when the mages of the Imperium have Andraste and her commanders cut off from their forces by walls of ice and there is a danger of them being massacred. At which point, the elves are rallied by Shartan to break the walls of ice with arrows of fire, freeing Andraste and her warriors to escape the potential carnage, going on to win the day. The story makes it clear that they were "penned like cattle for slaughter" before Shartan intervened, so his presence was critical to the victory.
Then Andraste stands before Shartan and shouts "Behold! Our Champion!" At which point she gives him the fabled sword Glandivalis, that had once belonged to her mother. Since her mother was also likely a Gothi of the Ciriane, this sword may have a significance beyond simply its name. It may actually be her symbol of her right to rule. Nevertheless its name is significant enough. There is an ancient tablet that is found in the Temple of Mythal that seems to have been written in the aftermath of the raising of the Veil, speaking of the new troubling freedom to which the elves are committed. There is a line which says, "when we could no longer believe" (in the gods I assume). Still the important part is the word for believe, "glandival", the stem of Glandivalis. This would suggest that the sword's name either means "Believer" or possibly "Blade of the Faith". Could the belief that it refers to also be the cause of freedom? This might well be the case because when she gives the sword to Shartan, she says:
"Take this, my champion and free our people forever."
A few things to note here. First, it would account for why Shartan put his alliance with Andraste, the belief in friendship and unity in the cause of freedom, above his own survival when he attempted to rescue her. It also seems to bestow the title of Champion of Andraste/Freedom on Shartan in perpetuity, or at least upon whoever inherits the sword from him. That being the case, then why would Andraste bestow the title "Blade of the Faith" on Drakon, particularly when the faith is in freedom?
At the very beginning of the Chant, the Maker is dissatisfied with his first children when all they do is stand around praising his name. The Maker required belief demonstrated through action. Everything about the Canticle of Shartan seems to show that the belief that united Andraste and Shartan was one of universal freedom. Which is why Andraste would not lay down her arms as Maferath wished, having conquered the south. You could argue that since Hessarian converted the entire Imperium to the Chant only ten years later, at that time the entire world did in fact have a shared belief in the Maker. So if that was all that concerned the Maker, the aim had been accomplished. However, according to the Canticle of Shartan simply converting to belief in the Maker had never been the aim. The will of the Maker will only be fulfilled when all the slaves are finally free.
No wonder neither Chantry has wanted to acknowledge Shartan since that time. For the southern Chantry it repudiates everything they claim about Drakon and their own divine mandate. For the Imperial Chantry it stands as a challenge to their professed belief in the Maker.
The Maker is said to have instructed Andraste: "To My children venture, carrying wisdom, if they but listen, I shall return." Andraste acknowledged that Shartan was her equal, having been called for the same reason as her, to be a light of hope for his people. The wisdom of the Maker is a message of Freedom. The Maker is still waiting.[\spoiler] That was an amazing read. Slow clap feeling for you.
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Post by phoray on Nov 27, 2016 22:06:57 GMT
Okay for anyone interested, here are my current theories about the ancient elves. They began as spirits, the First Children of the Maker. When the Maker realised that there was nothing to motivate them in a world that was nothing more than the Fade, he created the material (unchanging) world. The moment spirits crossed from the Fade to the Unchanging World they became affected by it and took on material form themselves. In fact much of the material world had an innate spirit (the Lady of the Forest in DAO had existed as part of the forest since its planting by the elves which must have taken place before the Veil). Each of the original Evanuris was in fact a nature spirit that became more material: Elgar'nan was the spirit of the sun/light; Mythal was the sea/water; Andruil was earth/forest; Sylaise was fire; Dirthamen and Falon'Din twin spirits of the air, whilst June was a manifestation of the creative spirit itself.
Just as with nature itself these beings could be both creative and destructive but initially they were more focussed on their creative/guiding aspect as more and more spirits crossed into the material world to join them. Mythal in particular was engaged in creating the settlements in which they dwelt, which bridged the reality between the Fade and Material side. At some point their magical activities aroused/angered the deep earth spirits known to us as Titans. This resulted in destruction of their creations and earned the ire of Elgar'nan in particular but also the rest of the Evanuris. They went to war on the Titans and this brought out the destructive side of their nature. Mythal either killed or subdued the Titans, freeing the dwarves that were their "children" from their thrall. This also resulted in the discovery of lyrium that gave the Evanuris even more power. At this point the other elvhen started to revere them as gods.
The structure of elvhen society would appear to have been Evanuris at the top, then their priesthood who willingly bound themselves to the service of a particular "god", the nobility who were likely granted power by their "gods" as a result of their freely given loyalty and finally the majority of elvhen who were servants/slaves (depending on your point of view), marked with the symbol of the god/priest/noble group that they served.
In addition to the ruling gods, there would appear to have been a number of dissident powerful elvhen, who are now known variously as the Forbidden Ones (having been banished by Elgar'nan for not helping in the war against the Titans) and the Forgotten Ones, who it would seem refused to acknowledge the authority of the Evanuris over them. In addition there was Fen'Harel, who originally would appear to have been a servant/follower/guardian of Mythal (possibly an arcane warrior since their job was to guard the nobility). It is not clear exactly when he joined the ranks of the rebels (before or after Mythal's death) but he quickly became their figurehead. The death of Mythal certainly prompted him to take direct action against the Evanuris and it is possible that the Forbidden/Forgotten Ones may have aided him in this or simply took advantage of the situation during the chaos that followed. Whatever the case, Fen'Harel raised the Veil, brought about the destruction of much of what the Evanuris had built and set the scene for the development of modern Thedas.
From the timeline given in World of Thedas and in the Keep, it would seem that humans did arrive on the scene before the raising of the Veil, which could account for why the memories of the elves became confused over their culpability for what followed. [\spoiler] Doesn't this contradict directly with Silas saying they were merely elders that turned Generals for a war that turned Kings/Queens that turned Gods? This theory has them being Gods from the get go
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Post by phoray on Nov 28, 2016 15:16:20 GMT
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 29, 2016 20:55:02 GMT
My theory was that the Evanuris were the first to exist away from the Fade and thus became guides and teachers to those that followed. Hence when Solas calls them the "First" of his people they were literally the first as well as the first in importance. There was probably always something of a hierarchy, which is why the Evanuris took the leadership role in the war that started their rise to godhood. As they began their progress from generals to kings to gods, the strata of the society developed as well. Naturally there would not have been priests until they were seen as gods, but there were likely favoured followers/principal subordinates in their armies, who became the nobility of peacetime. I am basing this off what Felassan says to Briala in Masked Empire. He never mentions the Evanuris but he does say how the society was no different to the present with nobles and servants and the nobles abused their servants in the past in exactly the same way that occurs in the modern society.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 29, 2016 21:15:29 GMT
On the subject of the Arlathvhen, they have never stated anywhere exactly when or where it occurs. Time wise I surmised it must occur around the middle of the decade because Velanna remembers seeing the Dalish Warden at the last Arlathvhen and WoT2 mentions the elders discussing Zathrian's crime against nature at the next one. However, that would mean that Marethari kept her clan stuck at the foot of Sundermount and they missed it altogether. Fenris trolls Merrill in MoA, claiming that the elves have told him about the next Arlathvhen being held near Halamshiral but that seems unlikely on two counts. First, the Dalish would unlikely inform an outsider of the event taking place because of the need for secrecy, and secondly it would not be held near Halamshiral since that area would have been too populated, outside of the civil war, for a large gathering of elves to take place without being noticed.
The idea of the entire Dalish population of Thedas getting together in one place is harder to understand now they have them spread as far apart as Rivain in the north and Nevarra in the west. They could set the location for the next gathering at the previous one but even so the logistics of an entire clan travelling the length of Thedas to attend it would seem to be something of an impossibility, not to mention having to cross the Waking Sea or go round it. So I have surmised that they change the location each time to either north or south of the sea and those on the wrong side simply send representatives to that gathering on behalf of the rest, while the majority of the clan await them in some safe location.
The clan in Masked Empire is said to be only around 50 members. They apparently had a lack of children. There may be larger clans where they have had historical better fertility but I would guess that they would probably split again at around 100 members because of the desire to avoid notice and also to reduce the chance of large numbers perishing in one place if things go wrong. There would also be a limit on the number of elves any given area of wilderness could support. The writers never seem to have been very good at numbers, so without any definitive indication on their part, there is no way of knowing exactly how large the total Dalish population is. However, based off that figure in Masked Empire, I would say it is in tens of thousands rather than hundreds of thousands. This would seem to be borne out in game, considering how few clans we actually run into. We see one clan in the Exalted Plains, none in the rest of Orlais and none in Ferelden. Admittedly most of the clans in Ferelden would seem to be in the Brecilian Forest but it seemed odd we didn't encounter any clans in the Emerald Graves area and instead the only clan was out on the Exalted Plains next to a war zone. Instead of the Keeper complaining about the inconvenience of it, I wondered that the clan went there at all. (The writers represent the Dalish as incredibly stupid at times).
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 29, 2016 21:44:09 GMT
Interesting wedding vows but for my Lavellan (of either gender) they have become rather null and void considering what we now know of the gods, although I still like the sentiments associated with each god. I've tended to assume that a Dalish couple would make a simple public declaration of their love for the benefit of the clan and then make private vows to each other for their ears alone.
My gay male Lavellan now worships Elgar Bellanaris (the eternal spirit), which is his name for the Maker, whom he regards as the god of freedom (as per my post above). He and Dorian exchanged private vows with Bellanaris as their witnesss, although they also made a public declaration of their bond to his clan after Trespasser.
My female Lavellan was left (twice) by Solas, so no wedding vows there.
My straight male Lavellan wanted to marry Cassandra but she didn't seem enamoured of the idea, so no wedding vows there either.
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Post by vit246 on Nov 30, 2016 5:13:34 GMT
My female Lavellan is a mage and a devout devotee of the Gods. Dirthamen is her personal patron god. She believes the only good is Knowledge and the only evil is Ignorance, thus she is ever on a Quest for Knowledge. She even practices animal sacrifice or ritual sacrifice by shedding blood from her own hand into a fiery brazier and invoking the Gods. She insists it is purely symbolic and not blood magic. She considered herself and Solas to be of one mind when it came to knowledge and magic but she is irritated by his dismissal of the Dalish. She couldn't help but fall in love, but she was most disappointed when he offered to remove her "slave markings", to her it meant that he understood nothing about her, her people, and her faith, which made him Ignorant. Even when she explained the importance of her Vallaslin and he seemed to accept it. She eagerly drank from the Well even if the Human Witch was somehow more qualified, because above all, she wants to know.
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Post by phoray on Dec 1, 2016 5:24:53 GMT
Do you think the Dalish feel safe enough to use the Imperial Highway? I see no other way for them to get across the Frostback Mountains with Aravels otherwise. The problem then, is, that they get very close to halamshiral before turning south to bypass the city. Or is it more just where Celene put her fancy Winter Palace, and the place is not actually that full of people?
So, the game and books don't tell you where the Arlathvhens happen. So, where do you think ARE good spots? I was thinking Ostagar wouldn't be bad, before the Blight. Maybe just north of the Arbor Wilds. Some Dessert places, as they are sparsely populated. Rivain seems friendly to "different". But then, how DID Merril's clan get across the sea? did they give their aravels up and just travel as a group? or did they actually ride all around the sea to get North?
Edit add: And what is up with the implication that a single halla pulls an aravel? I guess it depends on how much is on the aravel and the groun they tread to drag it. But I would think a team of two just so as to be kind to the Halla?
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Post by cloud9 on Dec 1, 2016 7:57:55 GMT
I wish they had kept the DA2 elf look, the background characters were horrific but the plot relevant ones looked alright. A bit crazy with the make-up sometimes but that's DA for you. It needed tweaking- shorten the neck, broaden the shoulders a little but DAI elves have the same problems but now with added freaky skinning arms. Like the qunari DA2 elves looked like their own species, still humanish but not like BW just mucked about with the human model and called it a day. But the other reason I'd like the DA2 look to still be around is that it would have made such a great contrast to Solas and the temple guardians. I would have loved that half starved waif look of modern elves to be the result of centuries of slavery. Agreed. For all it's faults, Dragon Age 2's Elven design at least tried to look like a separate species, rather than just pointy eared humans .
You still make this claim, despite almost none of the designs of Dragon Age Elves reflecting it? In Elvhenan language, architecture, clothing, art and the like, I've seen influence from the Celts, Scandinavia, Roma, Jews, Asian Indians, Japanese, and even some Cheyenne and Sioux, but nothing African or Middle Eastern. Can you show specific examples, that do not also reflect any other cultures? I would love to be proven wrong, if you can.
Look, I'll be the first to admit modern genre fantasy desperately needs more non-European influences. New ideas, rather than retreading the same old ones. But as far as how the Dragon Age universe actually portrays Elves, all I see are the modern day equivalent of the Fair Folk, Aes Sidhe and Tuatha De Denann.
The Ancient Elves are nothing but a reflection of ancient advanced civilizations I posted that are far older than the ones you told me.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 1, 2016 22:54:25 GMT
Merrill's clan crossed the Waking Sea by ship. It seems surprising that they would entrust themselves to a human ship and crew, much less have the money to pay for the passage of their entire clan, aravels and halla, but that is what is claimed in DA2. The halla didn't appreciate the sea voyage and so died on route or shortly after. Hence the clan being stuck at the foot of Sundermount apparently waiting for a miracle to provide some more. Somehow it resulted in the loss of all the children of the clan too (since we never see any in DA2 and there was a whole group of them in DAO). Of course Marethari was responsible for this strange state of affairs because of the debt she owed to Flemeth. Of course it contradicts what is said to a Dalish Warden in DAO, where their foster mother is at the celebration of killing the archdemon and to receive the Dalish boon from the monarch (that Alistair subsequently tells Merrill didn't work out). So you have to assume that the clan must have split shortly after Mahariel left them, with Marethari taking the majority with her to Kirkwall, whilst the younger members are left back in Ferelden. (May be this was a safeguard against treachery on the part of the sailors).
I think likely locations for Arlathvhens would be the Brecilian Forest, the Hinterland near Ostagar (where the Dalish boon was said to be located), and the foothills of the Frostbacks on both sides. I should imagine there are other passes through the mountains than the Imperial Highway to the north. That would simply be the normal trade route that is likely better patrolled by guards and so favoured by merchants, whereas the Dalish would rather keep clear of civilisation. North of the Waking Sea I think the Planasene Forest would be a likely location or possibly Wildervale (there is a clue in that name about the amount of people you might find there). I doubt that the meeting place would be much further north than that because of the majority of the Dalish still living in Orlas and Ferelden. I still think that clans living the wrong side of the Waking Sea from the gathering would more likely send representative than risk moving the entire clan. They would have to cross by ship because travelling round the entire Waking Sea would be too dangerous, requiring them to move through the most populated parts of Orlais and Nevarra.
I doubt single halla pull the aravels but that they harness them in a long line, either singly or in pairs. Mind you halla are meant to be larger than normal deer (don't be misled by those pathetic examples we saw in game), so given the size of the deer we are given as mounts, it is possible a single halla would be capable of pulling an aravel and the aravels have sails to allow the wind to help with moving them.
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Post by phoray on Dec 7, 2016 2:54:35 GMT
So. Arlathvhen. Where the clans get together to share lore adn trade ancient magical items.
Obviously that's what the Keepers do most of the time, but what about the rest of the non magical folk?
I'm thinking a bit of Medieval Fair meets Burning Man with splashes of magic all around.
Activites: Archery Carving Display Vallaslin face painting for the kiddos Dancing Story telling Halla Petting Zoo of the baby hallas (is that sacriligious?) Maybe a group wedding (not to each other, just lots of people getting married among the festivities) I was planning on some magically maintained Ice Sculptures while I was at it.
And then maybe functional things, like organized food from the hearth mistresses and masters and a first aid area for Firsts or Seconds to do some healing.
Whatcha think?
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 8, 2016 20:56:33 GMT
I think you are on the right lines with your list of activities. I can certainly seem them holding some tests of skill among the warriors and archers and trading of items and ideas by the crafts people. Dancing and story telling definitely, and singing too. Likely a lot of courtship and marriages taking place because most clan members are meant to be closely related, so it would be necessary to look beyond your own clan a lot of the time if they were not going to become too inbred. It would account for how Mahariel's father could have attracted the affections of Mahariel's mother when she was from a different clan where elders did not approve of his rather progressive ideas about contact with humans.
I think that the hunters from different clans would take it in turns to supply the gathering with meat and it would likely be cooked up on a series of spit roasts, presided over by the hearth keepers.
I'm pretty sure that halla would play a prominent part in the activities. Likely they would be fussing over the baby halla and petting them. Why not? They don't think of halla as beasts of burden but friends/family rather than sacred beasts you shouldn't touch. I also think there might well be halla racing. The relationship that the Dalish have with the halla reminds me more of how the desert Bedouin regarded the Arab horse or for that matter how the true Romani regard their own horses. Some years back I watched a program about eastern European Roma where they distinguished between the horses of the rest of the population who they were happy to buy and sell and Roma horses that could apparently understand the Roma language and were definitely regarded as more like family and they would never trade to a non Roma.
Not sure about ice sculptures since how would they maintain them? I'm pretty sure the Arlathvhen would take place in spring or summer. However, I do think sculpture of some sort might be involved, more likely carving of wood or halla horn brought with them from the previous autumn, when I assume they must shed them like ordinary deer do.
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Post by phoray on Dec 10, 2016 2:58:00 GMT
Not sure about ice sculptures since how would they maintain them? I'm pretty sure the Arlathvhen would take place in spring or summer. However, I do think sculpture of some sort might be involved, more likely carving of wood or halla horn brought with them from the previous autumn, when I assume they must shed them like ordinary deer do. I guess my thinking was along the lines of a few things. There are 10-20 Keepers along with their 1sts, 2nds, 3rds. So, up to 80 (or more) mages in one place. This is a major celebration. SO, I just imagine that magic will be all over the place. I've imagined wisps called forth to the gathering as a source of illumination rather than relying entirely on firewood, since some Arlathvhen's may be occuring in a place that isn't very wooded. I've imagined magical fireworks displays, and even magic drawings in the air to add to a story. And I imagine that since whole clans had to pack up, there isn't much room on the aravels to be dragging any large party items. So, large statues of, say, the Elven Pantheon, would probably not be dragged along. And yet, they of course would want to depict their Gods. A magically created Ice Sculpture could have a related stasis effect, whether it be cone of cold or blizzard or some such just on a very small area to maintain them. In the games, we see almost nothing of functional magic, while flashy fire balls are thrown everywhere. The Dalish have no cellars, and although they must be eating fresh more often than not, there are certain times of year that any culture relies on preserves and etc... I don't know, It's perhaps that I am very attached to the idea of the ice sculptures because they can be made on the spot and not have to be dragged around. Then can be left behind, to melt into a puddle, leaving no trace or mess behind when they leave. And there are 80+ mages, WHY NOT haha.
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Post by phoray on Dec 10, 2016 3:50:27 GMT
What stories of the Dalish are there to tell?
Fall of the Dales. obvious, but shortish the way they tell it in the game. It could involve the entire Shartan story arch in greater detail.
The 4th blight Gaharel. Surely they've made a story about that, although I've not heard them mention him much?
Tales of each of the Gods. Also obvious.
There anything else?
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 10, 2016 14:50:12 GMT
Actually you are right about the ice sculptures; in a world of magic keeping them intact for the duration of the Arlathvhen would not present a problem.
As for stories, well there have been instances of their folk tales in the past. There is that one about the woodcutter, Abelas, and I seem to recall another about a hunter. There was also the story about the clan that was involved in fighting the 2nd Blight and discovered how effective fire is against darkspawn. Thats the thing really; just because we haven't been told the stories doesn't mean they don't exist, so there is a lot of scope for people coming up with their own stories that the Dalish might tell. I imagine they have a lot of tales about various animals and nature generally.
There is also the fact that apparently the Dalish have a folk tale about a "trickster warrior who fought against tyrants". This is so obviously Solas, you wonder how the story of his fight was preserved and yet the identity of the warrior was not. I assume that it must be that the sentiments against Fen'Harel were so great that his followers felt the only way they could preserve the history of his rebellion was by making its leader anonymous. I can imagine that this story would be a popular one down the years because of the inspiration it would give to each new generation to persevere against tyranny. This is why I can totally see Shartan using it to inspire his own followers and thus how it became mixed in with his own story.
I also feel that Shartan would feature far more prominently in Dalish stories than has been apparent in game. The reason he seems to have been neglected by the Dalish is likely partly that the Canticle of Shartan had not been written at the time of DAO and partly because the writers didn't want to reveal too much too soon. Considering the Dalish have never denied that Andraste and Shartan were allies and regarded each other as they would close family, it seems inconceivable that the story of their meeting and subsequent battles together, as revealed in the Canticle of Shartan in World of Thedas 2, would not feature strongly in their folklore. In fact it seems to me far more likely that they would be constantly retold in order to emphasise just how much the empire of Orlais betrayed their memory. Also back in DAO the Dalish stories spoke of their heroes dying on the bonfires of Tevinter, so I think the story that appears in the Canticle of Andraste about the "Liberator's" heroic attempt to free her, would be remembered by the Dalish with the character given his true name of Shartan. I would really recommend reading through the Canticle of Shartan in full to get a flavour of the sort of heroic tale the Dalish are capable of. After all, it resulted from a translation of the oral storytelling of the Dalish, not any tradition among the human followers of Andraste.
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Post by ellehaym on Dec 10, 2016 21:15:18 GMT
I am curious about where the Elves that worship the Forgotten Ones fit in all of this? Since DA:I there have been alot more mentions of them such as the staff of a High Priest of Anaris found in the Descent, Geldaurran's claim. By the end of Tresspasser it was said that the elves of the Tirashan are stirring. As it stands, Forgotten One's worshippers might live in that forest?
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 11, 2016 17:08:37 GMT
I think the followers of the Forgotten Ones are going to play a more prominent role in the future, which is why they have been featuring more of late. The Forgotten Ones have to fit into the story somewhere. Gelduran seemed to have similar sentiments to Fen'Harel about the Creator gods and may even have had advanced knowledge of what Solas was intending to do since he says "their pride will consume them", which could be a play on the meaning of Solas' name, after which Gelduran says he will capitalise on their downfall by claiming a power of his own.
The crimson vallaslin make me think of red lyrium, whilst the offering up of their opponents sounds like blood magic. There were said to be cults to the Forgotten Ones at the time of the Dales, which the main stream Dalish condemned, and it was believed these were lost souls who had "torn out their hearts and forsaken all that it means to be Dalish in return for the keys to a twisted and terrible strength. I wonder if they were the forerunners of the Red Templars, using red lyrium to augment their strength, or if they simply used blood magic in its most lethal form, for spells such as wrack, haemorrhage and blood slave, which are forbidden by the Dalish. So what is not clear is whether these are simply the descendants of rogue Dalish who departed for the Tirashan to escape persecution by their peers or whether they are an enclave of ancient elves who worshipped the Forgotten Ones.
It is also going to be interesting to see what their relationship is going to be to Fen'Harel. The Dalish folklore said that he could walk as an equal among the Creators and the Forgotten Ones and was seen by both as an ally. This was not true in the case of the Evanuris, who I must assume are the Creators by their earlier name, since they were warning against Fen'Harel before he shut them away, but it is possible that the Forgotten Ones did see him as an ally and he did not confine them to the Void since that was always their lair. Considering that Andruil was said to have gone hunting them in the Void, this would seem to be the case. In the Masked Empire Felassan recounts a story about Anaris and Andruil fighting over who was going to have custody of the prisoner Fen'Harel and both seemed equally angry with him, so it is difficult to know how the Forgotten Ones or their followers will be presented in the future but I'm sure they will make an appearance.
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Post by phoray on Dec 12, 2016 6:28:09 GMT
So, studied some codexes, and decided that maybe this could be a "ritual" of a sort.
Does that seem appropriately Dalish? Did I understand the relationships right? :/
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Post by javeart on Dec 12, 2016 10:18:43 GMT
So, question for anyone who know lore well (or better that I do anyway) and/or are more acquainted with fan theories about elven gods, or that simply care to make a guess Would it be possible that Falon Din and Dirthamen are not twin brothers, but that the latter is some sort of "companion spirit" of the former? Doesn't he sound like he could be a spirit of wisdom, initially at least? and if Solas was too a spirit of wisdom, couldn't it be that maybe it was common among the evanuris to have them as counselors? Dirthamen had his own temples, so it seems he was more than a counselor, but he might have started as one? Could it be something like that?
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 13, 2016 20:37:31 GMT
On the halla, I'd say that ritual would probably be about right. There is a rhyme "Passing By" in World of Thedas 2 which teaches Dalish children how to prepare and drive an aravel. There is a verse:
"Say thrice the prayer to Ghilan'nain To quicken the white halla's tread"
Whether the halla actually respond to the prayer or not, it is clearly the way they begin each journey, so there is a degree of ritual involved. Before a major undertaking like travelling to the Arlathvhen, they likely would ask the blessing of Ghilan'nain and request the assistance of the halla.
The rhyme also mentions tying the "Heathkeeper's knot", so that could be another activity at the Arlathvhen for the children, seeing who can tie the best knots. Like sailors they probably have many different types depending on what they are being used for.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 13, 2016 20:59:49 GMT
The relationship between Dirthamen and Falon'Din is likely going to be interesting. There were clear hints that whatever it is, it is more than simply that of twins in the conventional sense. I wondered if they were both originally air spirits, with Dirthamen being the one who first crossed over to the material world, leaving his counterpart, Falon'Din, still in the Fade and able to pass him knowledge from its deepest parts, as the spirit in the Library suggests.
However, we then have the slur on the character of Falon'Din by Solas when he says how he was so vain and desiring of worship that the blood of those who would not worship him flowed like rivers and, as with Andruil, it took intervention by Mythal to bring him under control. This doesn't sound like a companion spirit in the Fade but a definite material being in his own right. The priesthood of Dirthamen also seemed pretty sinister types, what with the high priest locking in the others so the secrets of Dirthamen would not be revealed and then the other priests slicing him into different parts as revenge.
I rather like the line about Falon'Din "Whose wings of death surround him thick as night". I wonder if they are just metaphorical "wings" of shadow or if they are literal wings and he is indeed a large and deadly dragon. The rhyme definitely suggests that he was the god that the elves appealed to if they wanted guidance in the Fade, probably not so much after death but when in uthenera. "Lethanavir, master scryer be our guide, through shapeless worlds and airless skies." Whilst I don't deny he probably did all those things that Solas attributed to him, I rather wonder if Solas particularly disliked him because of the knowledge and control that Falon'Din had over the Fade and perhaps over the spirits there as well. Here's a thought, what if it wasn't just elves that were slaves of the Evanuris but spirits too?
You know, whatever else you might say about Solas, the old trickster certainly lived up to his reputation when he entrapped the Evanuris. To have managed to outwit all seven at the same time was a considerable feat. Then again, may be he had help.
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Post by javeart on Dec 13, 2016 22:25:00 GMT
The relationship between Dirthamen and Falon'Din is likely going to be interesting. There were clear hints that whatever it is, it is more than simply that of twins in the conventional sense. I wondered if they were both originally air spirits, with Dirthamen being the one who first crossed over to the material world, leaving his counterpart, Falon'Din, still in the Fade and able to pass him knowledge from its deepest parts, as the spirit in the Library suggests. However, we then have the slur on the character of Falon'Din by Solas when he says how he was so vain and desiring of worship that the blood of those who would not worship him flowed like rivers and, as with Andruil, it took intervention by Mythal to bring him under control. This doesn't sound like a companion spirit in the Fade but a definite material being in his own right. The priesthood of Dirthamen also seemed pretty sinister types, what with the high priest locking in the others so the secrets of Dirthamen would not be revealed and then the other priests slicing him into different parts as revenge. I rather like the line about Falon'Din "Whose wings of death surround him thick as night". I wonder if they are just metaphorical "wings" of shadow or if they are literal wings and he is indeed a large and deadly dragon. The rhyme definitely suggests that he was the god that the elves appealed to if they wanted guidance in the Fade, probably not so much after death but when in uthenera. "Lethanavir, master scryer be our guide, through shapeless worlds and airless skies." Whilst I don't deny he probably did all those things that Solas attributed to him, I rather wonder if Solas particularly disliked him because of the knowledge and control that Falon'Din had over the Fade and perhaps over the spirits there as well. Here's a thought, what if it wasn't just elves that were slaves of the Evanuris but spirits too? You know, whatever else you might say about Solas, the old trickster certainly lived up to his reputation when he entrapped the Evanuris. To have managed to outwit all seven at the same time was a considerable feat. Then again, may be he had help. I didn't remember that line about the "wings of death", it's cool, and definitely sounds like a dragon. I have to say that even if the one that gets lost in the fade is Dirthamen, I was thinking that he was the spirit of Wisdom and that maybe if they were blended, Falon'Din desire for worship too, could be the result of Dirthamen turning into a pride demon by Falon'Din's nature, in the same way that Anders (almost?) turned Justice into Vengeance. In fact, the first time I thought that the evanuris could be. spirits, I thought they could be all spirits turned into demons, The problem is I couldn't take my speculation further because I don't have a clear idea about what spirits tun into what demons to be honest I'd never have guessed that wisdom turns into pride, personally I'd have thought that wisdom turns into despair (interesting question btw, it probably says a lot about us the way each of us would connect spirits and demons ) I've been thinking the same thing, about the evanuris enslaving spirits, and I don't have much (or anything ) to prove it but I'm pretty sure they enslaved spirits too. I mean, If they knew how (and they surely did, because apparently everything in Tevinter comes from them), why wouldn't they? Speaking of which, and related too to spirits turning into demons, I've been thinking, a little too because of that line of Cole "He wants to give wisdom, not orders", that Solas and Mythal maybe are still friends because he didn't actually have to escape (Cole only says that he took his vallaslin himself, I think?), maybe she released him because she realized she was turning him into pride, taking him away from his purpose and maybe even bound him to her only to protect him from the others evanuris, like in Cole's loyalty mission. And now that I think of it, it could be that Falon'Din was the spirit and that working for Dirthamen turned him into a demon too. Though this probably makes no sense at all, because after all, once he was free Solas led a rebellion, which probably it's not the purpose of wisdom either , so even if he was a spirit, it seems at some point remaining true to his purposes stopped being necessary, maybe as soon as he had a body? edit: or maybe the rebelion was still somehow the purpose of wisdom? after all, in Trespasser they put a lot emphasis in how Fen'Harel teached the slaves that the evanuris were not gods and how to fight them... And also, if Falon'Din was the spirit, he might have been a spirit of compassion more than one of wisdom? turned into a demon of who knows what because, again, I'm not good at guessing that . In what (almost?) turned Cole when he started killing people? Desire of worship seems to fit more Pride than anything else, though... I'm realy going nowhere with this
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Post by ellehaym on Dec 13, 2016 22:54:54 GMT
I can see there being a conflict with Solas (Fen'harel) and Falon'Din. Assuming Falon'Din's acted as a guide to the Fade and Dirthamen keeping secrets then I can see someone like Solas who likes wandering the Fade to dislike both. Especially Dirthamen keeping what he knows about the Fade and other knowledge a secret from most people, except for Falon'Din due to their relationship.
That might explain why Falon'Din seems to challenge Elgar'nan in some myths because Dirthamen might know Elgar'nans weaknesses?
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