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Sifr
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sifr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Jan 15, 2017 6:23:48 GMT
I can't imagine a free qunari roaming around the Imperium proper. Maybe operating on the fringe of Tevinter society, perhaps. According to the Trespasser epilogues, if Bull and Dorian are in a relationship, they're forced to have to meet in border-town villas on the outskirts of the Imperium to spend time together. As a former Ben-Hassrath agent, I suspect Bull's probably got a few bounties on his head from Vints he ticked off during his time in Seheron, so wouldn't be wise to spend too long near the border. Even an Inquisitor romancing Dorian is rumoured to have to sneak into Minrathous to see him. Probably would be a bit too dangerous for the Inquisitor to travel openly in the Imperium, especially if you're playing as Adaar and Lavellan.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 17, 2017 3:53:12 GMT
I can't imagine a free qunari roaming around the Imperium proper. Maybe operating on the fringe of Tevinter society, perhaps. According to the Trespasser epilogues, if Bull and Dorian are in a relationship, they're forced to have to meet in border-town villas on the outskirts of the Imperium to spend time together. As a former Ben-Hassrath agent, I suspect Bull's probably got a few bounties on his head from Vints he ticked off during his time in Seheron, so wouldn't be wise to spend too long near the border. Even an Inquisitor romancing Dorian is rumoured to have to sneak into Minrathous to see him. Probably would be a bit too dangerous for the Inquisitor to travel openly in the Imperium, especially if you're playing as Adaar and Lavellan. It has been my experience that when discussing story possibilities that they may or may not want, people can cherry pick which lore suits their preference. This is not an attack, as I've done it myself. So I'll ask straight out: do you simply not want a Qunari (Kossith and not Viddithari) Companion in DA4? Or do you want Companions that you can't necessarily take everywhere, like Isabella refusing to enter the Qunari compound, or Bastila needing to stay on the Ebon Hawke on Korriban?
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Champion of Kirkwall
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3,737
Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Jan 17, 2017 5:02:07 GMT
It has been my experience that when discussing story possibilities that they may or may not want, people can cherry pick which lore suits their preference. This is not an attack, as I've done it myself. So I'll ask straight out: do you simply not want a Qunari (Kossith and not Viddithari) Companion in DA4? Or do you want Companions that you can't necessarily take everywhere, like Isabella refusing to enter the Qunari compound, or Bastila needing to stay on the Ebon Hawke on Korriban?
You misunderstand me, I'd actually prefer them to retain a Qunari player character option in DA4. That being said, having a Qunari character being allowed to roam around Tevinter freely would raise some questions, so they'd have to addressed it a lore-friendly way. One option might be our player character is contracted for employment from outside Tevinter by a wealthy and important patron (such as Dorian or Mae) to serve as their agent. For our own safety however, we have to agree to become an indentured servant for a certain period of time, as it's the best way of guaranteeing us some measure of legal protection should anyone attempt to forcibly enslave us. Since state-owned slaves are protected from mistreatment and have certain rights, there does seem to be certain rules that even slave-owners must abide by within the Imperium. This is what makes me suspect that indentured servitude might be one way to get around the issue.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 17, 2017 21:56:16 GMT
It has been my experience that when discussing story possibilities that they may or may not want, people can cherry pick which lore suits their preference. This is not an attack, as I've done it myself. So I'll ask straight out: do you simply not want a Qunari (Kossith and not Viddithari) Companion in DA4? Or do you want Companions that you can't necessarily take everywhere, like Isabella refusing to enter the Qunari compound, or Bastila needing to stay on the Ebon Hawke on Korriban?
You misunderstand me, I'd actually prefer them to retain a Qunari player character option in DA4. That being said, having a Qunari character being allowed to roam around Tevinter freely would raise some questions, so they'd have to addressed it a lore-friendly way. One option might be our player character is contracted for employment from outside Tevinter by a wealthy and important patron (such as Dorian or Mae) to serve as their agent. For our own safety however, we have to agree to become an indentured servant for a certain period of time, as it's the best way of guaranteeing us some measure of legal protection should anyone attempt to forcibly enslave us. Since state-owned slaves are protected from mistreatment and have certain rights, there does seem to be certain rules that even slave-owners must abide by within the Imperium. This is what makes me suspect that indentured servitude might be one way to get around the issue. I was referring specifically to potential Qunari Companions, not just player character options. The situation you outline could work, but I would prefer one difference: that whoever the PC is initially enslaved to (to be freed later) that it not be anyone even remotely connected to the Inquisition. It would allow the DA4 protagonist to better stand on their own, and not be the Inquisitor's sidekick. It would also allow players the option of disagreeing with, perhaps even actively opposing their Inquisitor.
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Champion of Kirkwall
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Sifr
3,737
Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
August 2016
sifr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Jan 18, 2017 20:47:17 GMT
Even if we worked for someone who was connected to the Inquisition (such as Dorian or Mae), it wouldn't really make us a sidekick to the Inquisitor, since we don't share the same goals or any loyalty to them. Hawke wasn't a sidekick to the Inquisitor either, as the only reason they showed up to help was because Varric asked them to.
I agree, we should have the option to undermine or go against whomever we end up working for. Speaking of which, would be nice to see them do something like that with factions. The cut-off point for joining a faction should come later down the questline rather than at the start. This would allow us to work for multiple factions before siding with one... unless we decide to take a third option and side with neither?
Back on (relative) topic though, for a Qunari companion to make sense in the Imperium, they'd probably have to be a Tal-Vashoth mercenary or an enslaved Saarebas. Dorian does mentions to a Qunari Inquisitor that he has met some Tal-Vashoth mercenaries and merchants before. Unless these encounters took place during his travel down to Fereldan, this could have still been in Tevinter?
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26,660
gervaise21
10,775
August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 27, 2017 19:31:01 GMT
I've been looking back again at some of the speeches in Masked Empire considering that PW is now lead writer and there are two that particularly stand out when you consider what Solas is planning.
The first is when Felassan is commiserating with Briala about the reaction of Keeper Thelhen to her plea about the elves of Halamshiral when he says he has no people in the alienages of Orlais.
Briala: "You never said." (about the attitude of the Dalish) Felassan: "Oh, Briala, by the way, the people you've idolized for most of your life are actually pompous idiots.......Would you have listened?"
Note that whilst Feleassan has his own agenda and so he is hardly going to disabuse Briala of her impression of the entirety of the Dalish people based off this one clan, PW as a writer doesn't do so either for the benefit of the reader. Remember we are constantly told in DAI that if what is asserted about the Dalish is different to our own experience of them, this is entirely down to the fact that there is no typical Dalish clan owing to them having grown apart over the years. Yet here we have the reader being given the impression that Clan Virnehn is typical of the Dalish as a whole and the attitudes they display are in contradiction to everything we have previously been told by the Dalish themselves in game or by codices.
Keeper Thelhen considers that the city elves are "poor cousins lost to us forever". He suggest that some clans may take them in to boost numbers or out of misguided pity but "they are not our people". All the Dalish we have previously dealt with have been happy to welcome elves escaping to them from the alienages and also acknowledge that if they ever have a future homeland, the city elves may well be able to teach them how to deal with their human neighbours so they can secure a lasting peace. They are preserving their culture for the benefit of all elves, not just the Dalish. So whilst they may look down on the alienage elves for continuing to put up with human oppression in the cities instead of joining them in their nomadic life, they do consider they have a kinship with them that is ongoing.
The War Leader (a title we have never previously come across in the DA setting) suggests that he would like to torture his captive, Michel, by making him endure a "game" known as Fen'Harel's teeth. This involves making the victim all but helpless by removing their clothes, lashing their hands together and then dressing them in leggings with nails driven through them, which dig into the legs with every movement made. They then release the prisoner, give them a hundred head start and then hunt them down. What a perversion of Dalish beliefs this is. The central teaching of the Dalish that was said to have been passed down through the ages from Andruil herself is the "Way of Three Trees" otherwise known as the "Way of the Hunter". The first of these is the Vir Assan, the Way of the Arrow. "Strike true; do not waiver. AND LET NOT YOUR PREY SUFFER." Previously even when a Dalish has been embarked on vengeance against someone, they do it as speedily as they can. Zathrian was condemned by the Hahren'al when the truth about him came to light for his "crime against nature". He was one individual, though, and his clan played no part in his curse against the people who raped his daughter and murdered his son. In the case of Michel though, he had personally done nothing at that point against the clan, so they had no reason to treat him in that way, except apparently it being something that Dalish clans do for kicks. Remember this clan is being presented as typical to both Briala and the reader. To my mind they seem more like worshipers of the Forgotten Ones as found in the Tirashan.
Most disturbing speech of all is Thelhen's response to Celene's offer of concessions in return for his help. "If you and Gaspard slew each other, and war killed every human in Orlais, and burned every alienage to the ground.....then we would be willing to return to Halamshiral."
So essentially what he is saying is that he would have no problem with the death of every human and every non Dalish elf in order to restore the elven homeland. Does that not sound like someone who could be manipulated by Solas into assisting his plans? Just as Felassan manipulated Thelhen into assisting him in getting control of the eluvians (don't tell me Thelhen discovered about them and the need to summon Imshael all on his own). So when they show an elf at the front of picture in the epilogue screen at the end of Trespasser and that elf has both hair and vallaslin, I am inclined to think that is a Dalish elf. When they say that elves are flocking to his side from across Thedas, I think they are going to make it that the majority of Dalish do support him. When Maryden sings: "Dalish father roams, will the Dalish son survive the fight?" I think there is every reason to fear that next game we are going to find ourselves in opposition to the Dalish who are being led to their doom by Solas.
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10,775
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 28, 2017 12:04:24 GMT
Okay, so having got the previous post off my chest, here is a new topic. What exactly do you think Tevinter did destroy? I've been puzzling over this. Clearly it wasn't THE Arlathan, the mythical city that was tied to the Fade and destroyed when Solas raised the Veil. Abelas claims it was he civil war that destroyed the Thedas wide empire, though it is unclear whether that was before or after Solas took his action. However, Abelas makes it clear that whatever happened to the elves of Thedas after the raising of the Veil, they weren't his people. So I doubt he was even aware of what went on up in the north from his slumber deep in the south because it didn't involve "his people".
From the human records it would seem there was definitely a city there that they attacked and must have been bigger than the main complex in the Arbor Wilds, probably over the sort of area encompassed by the ruins, except the city wasn't ruined and was robust enough to withstand a 6 years siege and everything the might of Tevinter could throw at it. I'm still not convinced that it was the actions of the Tevinter side that sank the city, yet both Tevinter records and the Dalish seem to agree that was its fate. The strange thing is that Tevinter were initially very tardy about taking action against these hostile humanoids considering the first attacks on settlers and the murder of their envoys occurred some forty years or so before they finally went to war and their people had been under constant attack in the interim. This seems remarkably restrained on the part of the Magisters.
It was clearly inhabited by a very large population of modern elves because the Tevinter slave population multiplied considerably as a result of the captives they took and the Dalish and city elves are descended from these people. Were there only modern elves in the city or were they in fact under the control of ancient elves who encouraged their hostility? Why did they have sufficient contact with the dwarves that fugitives from this city ended up taking refuge at Cad'Halash? Bear in mind that this thaig was deep in the south and Arlathan Forest is in the north. Did the fugitives travel there overland, by the Deep Roads or through eluvians?
Why were the elves so hostile to peaceful envoys? There seems little reason for Tevinter to lie about this, which is why I wonder if the modern elves were under the direction of ancient nobility. Or were they all effectively "ancient" elves and only transformed into their modern form after their capture? Clearly it was felt even then that the humans were in some way responsible for the Quickening and that is why it became part of the Dalish lore on the matter but why was this? The elves in the ancient library were fully aware that Fen'Harel was responsible for the catastrophic results of raising the Veil. Surely would they not have made the connection between the reduction in magic and the loss of immortality seeing as they would have occurred at the same time? The Dalish even seem to believe that their gods may have judged them as unworthy of immortality before they were shut away. Did the arrival of humans in Par Vollen actually have something to do with the war that led to the shutting away of the gods?
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Post by xilizhra on Jan 28, 2017 14:39:40 GMT
I've been looking back again at some of the speeches in Masked Empire considering that PW is now lead writer and there are two that particularly stand out when you consider what Solas is planning. The first is when Felassan is commiserating with Briala about the reaction of Keeper Thelhen to her plea about the elves of Halamshiral when he says he has no people in the alienages of Orlais. Briala: "You never said." (about the attitude of the Dalish) Felassan: "Oh, Briala, by the way, the people you've idolized for most of your life are actually pompous idiots.......Would you have listened?" Note that whilst Feleassan has his own agenda and so he is hardly going to disabuse Briala of her impression of the entirety of the Dalish people based off this one clan, PW as a writer doesn't do so either for the benefit of the reader. Remember we are constantly told in DAI that if what is asserted about the Dalish is different to our own experience of them, this is entirely down to the fact that there is no typical Dalish clan owing to them having grown apart over the years. Yet here we have the reader being given the impression that Clan Virnehn is typical of the Dalish as a whole and the attitudes they display are in contradiction to everything we have previously been told by the Dalish themselves in game or by codices. Keeper Thelhen considers that the city elves are "poor cousins lost to us forever". He suggest that some clans may take them in to boost numbers or out of misguided pity but "they are not our people". All the Dalish we have previously dealt with have been happy to welcome elves escaping to them from the alienages and also acknowledge that if they ever have a future homeland, the city elves may well be able to teach them how to deal with their human neighbours so they can secure a lasting peace. They are preserving their culture for the benefit of all elves, not just the Dalish. So whilst they may look down on the alienage elves for continuing to put up with human oppression in the cities instead of joining them in their nomadic life, they do consider they have a kinship with them that is ongoing. The War Leader (a title we have never previously come across in the DA setting) suggests that he would like to torture his captive, Michel, by making him endure a "game" known as Fen'Harel's teeth. This involves making the victim all but helpless by removing their clothes, lashing their hands together and then dressing them in leggings with nails driven through them, which dig into the legs with every movement made. They then release the prisoner, give them a hundred head start and then hunt them down. What a perversion of Dalish beliefs this is. The central teaching of the Dalish that was said to have been passed down through the ages from Andruil herself is the "Way of Three Trees" otherwise known as the "Way of the Hunter". The first of these is the Vir Assan, the Way of the Arrow. "Strike true; do not waiver. AND LET NOT YOUR PREY SUFFER." Previously even when a Dalish has been embarked on vengeance against someone, they do it as speedily as they can. Zathrian was condemned by the Hahren'al when the truth about him came to light for his "crime against nature". He was one individual, though, and his clan played no part in his curse against the people who raped his daughter and murdered his son. In the case of Michel though, he had personally done nothing at that point against the clan, so they had no reason to treat him in that way, except apparently it being something that Dalish clans do for kicks. Remember this clan is being presented as typical to both Briala and the reader. To my mind they seem more like worshipers of the Forgotten Ones as found in the Tirashan. Most disturbing speech of all is Thelhen's response to Celene's offer of concessions in return for his help. "If you and Gaspard slew each other, and war killed every human in Orlais, and burned every alienage to the ground.....then we would be willing to return to Halamshiral." So essentially what he is saying is that he would have no problem with the death of every human and every non Dalish elf in order to restore the elven homeland. Does that not sound like someone who could be manipulated by Solas into assisting his plans? Just as Felassan manipulated Thelhen into assisting him in getting control of the eluvians (don't tell me Thelhen discovered about them and the need to summon Imshael all on his own). So when they show an elf at the front of picture in the epilogue screen at the end of Trespasser and that elf has both hair and vallaslin, I am inclined to think that is a Dalish elf. When they say that elves are flocking to his side from across Thedas, I think they are going to make it that the majority of Dalish do support him. When Maryden sings: "Dalish father roams, will the Dalish son survive the fight?" I think there is every reason to fear that next game we are going to find ourselves in opposition to the Dalish who are being led to their doom by Solas. I'd be more worried if it weren't for the fact that Weekes has already proven quite willing to walk back from TME, as seen in WEaWH.
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lobselvith8
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 426 Likes: 496
inherit
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0
496
lobselvith8
426
August 2016
lobselvith8
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 28, 2017 23:50:57 GMT
Okay, so having got the previous post off my chest, here is a new topic. What exactly do you think Tevinter did destroy? I've been puzzling over this. Clearly it wasn't THE Arlathan, the mythical city that was tied to the Fade and destroyed when Solas raised the Veil. Abelas claims it was he civil war that destroyed the Thedas wide empire, though it is unclear whether that was before or after Solas took his action. However, Abelas makes it clear that whatever happened to the elves of Thedas after the raising of the Veil, they weren't his people. So I doubt he was even aware of what went on up in the north from his slumber deep in the south because it didn't involve "his people". I think this is one of those examples of the developers introducing story elements that don't exactly line up with what was established previously. Similar to Gaider originally saying that the Dalish lived longer the more generations they lived away from humans and Zathrian remarking on elven longevity among the Dalish, and then Solas saying that humans had nothing to do with elven immortality. The developers have admitted that they don't really plan things long-term, which is why they sometimes recton certain things to accommodate the current story. It was clearly inhabited by a very large population of modern elves because the Tevinter slave population multiplied considerably as a result of the captives they took and the Dalish and city elves are descended from these people. Were there only modern elves in the city or were they in fact under the control of ancient elves who encouraged their hostility? Why did they have sufficient contact with the dwarves that fugitives from this city ended up taking refuge at Cad'Halash? Bear in mind that this thaig was deep in the south and Arlathan Forest is in the north. Did the fugitives travel there overland, by the Deep Roads or through eluvians? Presumably, they were simply ancient elves of the Elvhenan civilization, rather than Arlathan proper. Why were the elves so hostile to peaceful envoys? There seems little reason for Tevinter to lie about this, which is why I wonder if the modern elves were under the direction of ancient nobility. Or were they all effectively "ancient" elves and only transformed into their modern form after their capture? Clearly it was felt even then that the humans were in some way responsible for the Quickening and that is why it became part of the Dalish lore on the matter but why was this? The elves in the ancient library were fully aware that Fen'Harel was responsible for the catastrophic results of raising the Veil. Surely would they not have made the connection between the reduction in magic and the loss of immortality seeing as they would have occurred at the same time? The Dalish even seem to believe that their gods may have judged them as unworthy of immortality before they were shut away. Did the arrival of humans in Par Vollen actually have something to do with the war that led to the shutting away of the gods? This is one of those issues that I don't expect to be properly explained, because it doesn't quite fit with what came before. If the Evanuris, for example, were simply tyrants with no redeeming features, why did elven descendants of Elvhenan come to worship them? It's not as if they forgot all their lore, for example; elven descendants of Elvhenan used knowledge of ancient magic to help create the Joining Ritual, and were co-founders of the Grey Warden Order. If everyone knew it was Fen'Harel's fault for the veil to be erected (as we saw in Trespasser), there's really no reason for humans to be blamed for the Quickening.
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Ser Barksalot - Hiatus
2,584
Sept 2, 2016 18:49:21 GMT
September 2016
shechinah
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by shechinah on Jan 29, 2017 7:10:39 GMT
1. Keeper Thelhen considers that the city elves are "poor cousins lost to us forever". He suggest that some clans may take them in to boost numbers or out of misguided pity but "they are not our people". All the Dalish we have previously dealt with have been happy to welcome elves escaping to them from the alienages and also acknowledge that if they ever have a future homeland, the city elves may well be able to teach them how to deal with their human neighbours so they can secure a lasting peace. They are preserving their culture for the benefit of all elves, not just the Dalish. So whilst they may look down on the alienage elves for continuing to put up with human oppression in the cities instead of joining them in their nomadic life, they do consider they have a kinship with them that is ongoing. I’m not surprised that some clans would develop this sentiment given that most Dalish clans look down on non-Dalish elves and even the ones who do feel a kinship with city elves still call them flat ears because they see them as differing little from their “shemlen masters”. Paivel of clan Sabrae, who believes in living alongside the city elves and learning to understand humans from them, still refer to them as flat ear with the aforementioned reasoning. Another member of his clan says this about non-Dalish elves: “They have given up their identity to live among shemlen. They are elvhen no more.”
Paivel's quote about living as one people can even be seen as having a different context because of this bit in codex entry: "We gather every ten years for the Arlathvhen, to retell the ancient stories and keep them alive. For when the human kingdoms are gone, we must be ready to teach the others what it means to be elves." The Dalish even refer to themselves as “true elves” implying that non-Dalish elves are less elven or even not really elves in their eyes so yeah, I’m not surprised that there is, at least, one Dalish clan that do not feel a kinship with non-Dalish and don't view them as being a part of their people. That sentiment was bound to develop in some people when it’s common to refer to your group of people as being the true (race) and referring to others of same race by a devaluing term because they live differently than you do. The Virnehn Clan probably views non-Dalish as race traitors for having submitted to humans and living as they do in cities or on farms.
Source: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Dalish_Elves
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Ser Barksalot - Hiatus
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Sept 2, 2016 18:49:21 GMT
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shechinah
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by shechinah on Jan 29, 2017 7:42:18 GMT
2. The War Leader (a title we have never previously come across in the DA setting) suggests that he would like to torture his captive, Michel, by making him endure a "game" known as Fen'Harel's teeth. This involves making the victim all but helpless by removing their clothes, lashing their hands together and then dressing them in leggings with nails driven through them, which dig into the legs with every movement made. They then release the prisoner, give them a hundred head start and then hunt them down. What a perversion of Dalish beliefs this is. The central teaching of the Dalish that was said to have been passed down through the ages from Andruil herself is the "Way of Three Trees" otherwise known as the "Way of the Hunter". The first of these is the Vir Assan, the Way of the Arrow. "Strike true; do not waiver. AND LET NOT YOUR PREY SUFFER." Previously even when a Dalish has been embarked on vengeance against someone, they do it as speedily as they can. Zathrian was condemned by the Hahren'al when the truth about him came to light for his "crime against nature". He was one individual, though, and his clan played no part in his curse against the people who raped his daughter and murdered his son. In the case of Michel though, he had personally done nothing at that point against the clan, so they had no reason to treat him in that way, except apparently it being something that Dalish clans do for kicks. Remember this clan is being presented as typical to both Briala and the reader. To my mind they seem more like worshipers of the Forgotten Ones as found in the Tirashan. I could not find anything that said that the three tenets serve as a philosophy in war and the killing of sapient creatures. The Vir Tanadhal seem to be about hunting, specifically tenets on how to hunt in the forest with respect for it and its animals. Take this line from the Vir Assan: "And let not your prey suffer".
In Vir Adahlen, Andruil says this: "Vir Adahlen: the Way of the Wood. Receive the gifts of the hunt with mindfulness. Respect the sacrifice of my children. Know that your passing shall nourish them in turn. That is my Way."
Vir Adahlen seems to present the prey in question as being the children of Andruil who sacrifices themselves for the Dalish and therefore should be treated with respect and not suffer needlessly. Andruil is also referred to as the Mother of Hares which I think is further evidence of this. The prey mentioned in Vir Assan is specifically animals.
In this case, the Clan Virnhan would consider the Vir Tanadhal to apply to animals but not to humans as they are not children of Andruil.
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Ser Barksalot - Hiatus
2,584
Sept 2, 2016 18:49:21 GMT
September 2016
shechinah
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by shechinah on Jan 29, 2017 7:50:03 GMT
3. Most disturbing speech of all is Thelhen's response to Celene's offer of concessions in return for his help. "If you and Gaspard slew each other, and war killed every human in Orlais, and burned every alienage to the ground.....then we would be willing to return to Halamshiral." That is actually something that also harkens back to Dragon Age: Origins. The alienage bit is Keeper Thelhen's own addition but like I said, city elves are basically viewed as humans with pointy ears so he seems to be counting them as such.
“In time, the human empires will crumble. We have seen it happen countless times. Until then, we wait, we keep to the wild border lands, we raise halla and build aravels and present a moving target to the humans around us. We try to keep hold of the old ways, to relearn what was forgotten.” ―Gisharel, Keeper of the Ralaferin Clan
Source: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Dalish_Elves
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lobselvith8
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 29, 2017 7:59:01 GMT
1. Keeper Thelhen considers that the city elves are "poor cousins lost to us forever". He suggest that some clans may take them in to boost numbers or out of misguided pity but "they are not our people". All the Dalish we have previously dealt with have been happy to welcome elves escaping to them from the alienages and also acknowledge that if they ever have a future homeland, the city elves may well be able to teach them how to deal with their human neighbours so they can secure a lasting peace. They are preserving their culture for the benefit of all elves, not just the Dalish. So whilst they may look down on the alienage elves for continuing to put up with human oppression in the cities instead of joining them in their nomadic life, they do consider they have a kinship with them that is ongoing. I’m not surprised that some clans would develop this sentiment given that most Dalish clans look down on non-Dalish elves and even the ones do feel a kinship with city elves still call them flat ears because they see them as differing little from their “shemlen masters”. I'm not sure why you think most clans feel that way. Zathrian's clan rescued Aneirin from they stumbled across him on the verge of death, and they offered to take Lanaya to a human city so she could join an alienage after Zathrian rescued her from bandits. Dalish elves saved Alarith's life when human bandits murdered his family after they escaped Tevinter. Maren is pleasantly surprised when he sees Velanna in the company of non-humans, so I doubt he looks down on city elves. Marethari shows no disdain for city elves, and Merrill refers to them as "our people" in discussion with Fenris (who is a Tevinter elf). Clan Lavellan even risks their lives staying in Wycome to defend the Wycome elves from the Marcher armies, even though they could easily abandon them. Simply put, I'm just not seeing why you think "most" clans feel this way. Harel of clan Sabrae, who believes in living alongside the city elves and learning to understand humans from them, still refer to them as flat ear with the aforementioned reasoning. You mean Paivel? He does say that the Dalish and Andrastian elves can learn from one another, and uses the example that perhaps the city elves can help the Dalish learn to co-exist with humans in peace. Another member of his clan says this about non-Dalish elves: “They have given up their identity to live among shemlen. They are elvhen no more.” Which is similar to how some city elves feel about any elves who leave the alienage, as hahren Sarethia of the Highever alienage explains: "Here, we're among family. We look out for each other. Here, we do what we can to remember the old ways. The flat-ears who have gone out there, they're stuck. They'll never be human, and they've gone and thrown away being elven, too. So where does that leave them? Nowhere." I'd consider it wrong to generalize them, too. Every ethnic group has members who are narrow-minded. There's absolutely no group of people in Thedas who are perfect; not a single one. The Dalish even refer to themselves as “true elves” implying that non-Dalish elves are less elven or even not really elves in their eyes so yeah, I’m not surprised that there is, at least, one Dalish clan that do not feel a kinship with non-Dalish and don't view them as being a part of their people. I'd call it a mistake to generalize an entire ethnic group of people as if they have the same views on city elves when we clearly know this isn't the case. We have Dalish like Lanaya, Varathorn, Elora, Gheyna, Athras, Cammen, Deygan, and Marethari who clearly don't denigrate city elves. Merrill explicitly refers to them as "our people", and she goes out of her way to protect them during the Mage-Templar War. That sentiment was bound to develop in some people when it’s common to refer to your group of people as being the true (race) and referring to others of same race by a devaluing term because they live differently than you do. Are you referring to their Oath? "We are the Dalish: keepers of the lost lore, walkers of the lonely path. We are the last elvhen. Never again shall we submit." That came from their last stand during the fall of the Dales. It has nothing to do with city elves. The Virnehn Clan probably views non-Dalish as race traitors for having submitted to humans and living as they do in cities or on farms. You mean the clan that violates the Dalish prohibition against using magic that involves spirits and directly violates the first verse of the Vir Assan (which is identified as a 'code of wisdom' in an elven codex) that is adhered to by the clans?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 29, 2017 19:47:46 GMT
I think you are missing my point. I do not deny that Clan Virnehn holds these views. What I take issue with is that the author presents them to the reader, as Felassan does to Briala, as typical Dalish. Clan Virnehn is the norm. All these other clans that we have previously encountered in game are in the words of their Keeper only "some" clans but it is implied that the majority are like his. Within the story Briala now totally rejects her feelings of loyalty towards the Dalish and this clan in particular because of the views that he expresses and the reader is being encouraged to feel sympathy with her feelings so they will do so as well. This is necessary because of what follows. If the clan had been portrayed in anything other than a totally negative light, then Briala, Celene, Michel and Felassan would have appeared in a far worse light for attacking people who only a few hours before had saved them from sylvans after which they freed the demon and then allowed it to tear them apart. The Keeper was culpable in summoning the demon in the first place but everything else was the responsibility of the main characters of the story. Fifty men, women and children (although WoT2 tries to mitigate the last bit by Imshael claiming that he spared the children).
So my point is that going forward we have a situation where the Dread Wolf is meant to be gathering followers to himself. There has been some debate over exactly who these elves are who are flocking to him. However, the elf to the fore of the epilogue screen has vallaslin and hair, which would suggest they are Dalish and not an ancient elf. I very much doubt that the Dalish clans we encounter in DAO and DA2 or clan Lavellan would trust the Dread Wolf or agree to work with him if they knew his plan was to destroy their current world. However, even allowing that Fen'Harel was even truthful with his followers (which I doubt), a clan like Virnehn could be portrayed as willingly collaborating in his plot as clearly from the sentiments the Keeper displayed, they would have no qualms about sacrificing everyone else to get the world of the elves back. Since PW portrayed them as typical Dalish in his novel, that is what has me worried that the writers are going to justify putting the Dalish into the Fen'Harel camp and then using them as canon fodder against the next protagonist. I would add that I equally object to them using the city elves in this way too.
I must admit those words of Gisharel: "In time the human empires will crumble. We have seen it countless times" always struck me as empty rhetoric even before the Temple of Mythal, since the only empire to have crumbled down the years was the elven one. The Tevinter Imperium, whilst smaller than it was, is still going strong some 2000 years after its founding and was replaced in the south by the Empire of Orlais, also still going strong some 800 years after its founding. What other human empires have there been that the elves would know about?
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lobselvith8
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 29, 2017 20:15:00 GMT
2. The War Leader (a title we have never previously come across in the DA setting) suggests that he would like to torture his captive, Michel, by making him endure a "game" known as Fen'Harel's teeth. This involves making the victim all but helpless by removing their clothes, lashing their hands together and then dressing them in leggings with nails driven through them, which dig into the legs with every movement made. They then release the prisoner, give them a hundred head start and then hunt them down. What a perversion of Dalish beliefs this is. The central teaching of the Dalish that was said to have been passed down through the ages from Andruil herself is the "Way of Three Trees" otherwise known as the "Way of the Hunter". The first of these is the Vir Assan, the Way of the Arrow. "Strike true; do not waiver. AND LET NOT YOUR PREY SUFFER." Previously even when a Dalish has been embarked on vengeance against someone, they do it as speedily as they can. Zathrian was condemned by the Hahren'al when the truth about him came to light for his "crime against nature". He was one individual, though, and his clan played no part in his curse against the people who raped his daughter and murdered his son. In the case of Michel though, he had personally done nothing at that point against the clan, so they had no reason to treat him in that way, except apparently it being something that Dalish clans do for kicks. Remember this clan is being presented as typical to both Briala and the reader. To my mind they seem more like worshipers of the Forgotten Ones as found in the Tirashan. I could not find anything that said that the three tenets serve as a philosophy in war and the killing of sapient creatures. The Vir Tanadhal is regarded as a philosophy followed by hunters, as opposed to the philosophy of the Vir Atish'an: "There is never a shortage of hunters. The Vir Tanadhal, The Way of Three Trees, has lured many to Andruil's side. The Vir Atish'an, The Way of Peace, is a harder path to tread, and few are called to hear Sylaise's wisdom. Those who hear that call learn the arts of the healer and the mender." Merrill also makes note of hunters following the Vir Tanadhal. The Vir Tanadhal seem to be about hunting, specifically tenets on how to hunt in the forest with respect for it and its animals. Take this line from the Vir Assan: "And let not your prey suffer". There is also the philosophy of the Vir Banal'ras, and the entry on it reads: "Most Dalish hunters follow the Vir Tanadhal, the 'Way of Three Trees' that consists of three codes of wisdom to which they adhere. Seldom spoken of, however, is a fourth way: the Vir Banal'ras, the 'Way of Shadow.' Assuming it when a debt of blood must be repaid, such hunters dedicate themselves to vengeance and nothing else. Thus were born the legends of Dalish assassins."
Vir Adahlen seems to present the prey in question as being the children of Andruil who sacrifices themselves for the Dalish and therefore should be treated with respect and not suffer needlessly. Andruil is also referred to as the Mother of Hares which I think is further evidence of this. The prey mentioned in Vir Assan is specifically animals.
If language like 'codes of wisdom' is used to describe the Vir Tanadhal, the Way of Three Trees, I don't think it's only meant to be interpreted strictly as a means for how they should hunt animals.
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Post by shechinah on Jan 29, 2017 21:24:02 GMT
I must admit those words of Gisharel: "In time the human empires will crumble. We have seen it countless times" always struck me as empty rhetoric even before the Temple of Mythal, since the only empire to have crumbled down the years was the elven one. The Tevinter Imperium, whilst smaller than it was, is still going strong some 2000 years after its founding and was replaced in the south by the Empire of Orlais, also still going strong some 800 years after its founding. What other human empires have there been that the elves would know about? Yeah, I've never gotten that one myself. If I were to make a guess then I'd say it may have been that the history surrounding some of the countries in Thedas was still unfinished around the time of Dragon Age: Origins.
I usually headcanon that the Dalish believe there to have been human empires around the time of ancient Arlathan that fell long before Arlathan did and so that is what is being referred to.
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Post by Iddy on Feb 22, 2017 16:15:52 GMT
I've been looking back again at some of the speeches in Masked Empire considering that PW is now lead writer and there are two that particularly stand out when you consider what Solas is planning. The first is when Felassan is commiserating with Briala about the reaction of Keeper Thelhen to her plea about the elves of Halamshiral when he says he has no people in the alienages of Orlais. Briala: "You never said." (about the attitude of the Dalish) Felassan: "Oh, Briala, by the way, the people you've idolized for most of your life are actually pompous idiots.......Would you have listened?" Note that whilst Feleassan has his own agenda and so he is hardly going to disabuse Briala of her impression of the entirety of the Dalish people based off this one clan, PW as a writer doesn't do so either for the benefit of the reader. Remember we are constantly told in DAI that if what is asserted about the Dalish is different to our own experience of them, this is entirely down to the fact that there is no typical Dalish clan owing to them having grown apart over the years. Yet here we have the reader being given the impression that Clan Virnehn is typical of the Dalish as a whole and the attitudes they display are in contradiction to everything we have previously been told by the Dalish themselves in game or by codices. Keeper Thelhen considers that the city elves are "poor cousins lost to us forever". He suggest that some clans may take them in to boost numbers or out of misguided pity but "they are not our people". All the Dalish we have previously dealt with have been happy to welcome elves escaping to them from the alienages and also acknowledge that if they ever have a future homeland, the city elves may well be able to teach them how to deal with their human neighbours so they can secure a lasting peace. They are preserving their culture for the benefit of all elves, not just the Dalish. So whilst they may look down on the alienage elves for continuing to put up with human oppression in the cities instead of joining them in their nomadic life, they do consider they have a kinship with them that is ongoing. The War Leader (a title we have never previously come across in the DA setting) suggests that he would like to torture his captive, Michel, by making him endure a "game" known as Fen'Harel's teeth. This involves making the victim all but helpless by removing their clothes, lashing their hands together and then dressing them in leggings with nails driven through them, which dig into the legs with every movement made. They then release the prisoner, give them a hundred head start and then hunt them down. What a perversion of Dalish beliefs this is. The central teaching of the Dalish that was said to have been passed down through the ages from Andruil herself is the "Way of Three Trees" otherwise known as the "Way of the Hunter". The first of these is the Vir Assan, the Way of the Arrow. "Strike true; do not waiver. AND LET NOT YOUR PREY SUFFER." Previously even when a Dalish has been embarked on vengeance against someone, they do it as speedily as they can. Zathrian was condemned by the Hahren'al when the truth about him came to light for his "crime against nature". He was one individual, though, and his clan played no part in his curse against the people who raped his daughter and murdered his son. In the case of Michel though, he had personally done nothing at that point against the clan, so they had no reason to treat him in that way, except apparently it being something that Dalish clans do for kicks. Remember this clan is being presented as typical to both Briala and the reader. To my mind they seem more like worshipers of the Forgotten Ones as found in the Tirashan. Most disturbing speech of all is Thelhen's response to Celene's offer of concessions in return for his help. "If you and Gaspard slew each other, and war killed every human in Orlais, and burned every alienage to the ground.....then we would be willing to return to Halamshiral." So essentially what he is saying is that he would have no problem with the death of every human and every non Dalish elf in order to restore the elven homeland. Does that not sound like someone who could be manipulated by Solas into assisting his plans? Just as Felassan manipulated Thelhen into assisting him in getting control of the eluvians (don't tell me Thelhen discovered about them and the need to summon Imshael all on his own). So when they show an elf at the front of picture in the epilogue screen at the end of Trespasser and that elf has both hair and vallaslin, I am inclined to think that is a Dalish elf. When they say that elves are flocking to his side from across Thedas, I think they are going to make it that the majority of Dalish do support him. When Maryden sings: "Dalish father roams, will the Dalish son survive the fight?" I think there is every reason to fear that next game we are going to find ourselves in opposition to the Dalish who are being led to their doom by Solas. And unfortunately, Patrick Weekes is the lead writer now.
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Post by vit246 on Mar 14, 2017 21:50:00 GMT
And unfortunately, Patrick Weekes is the lead writer now. Son of a bitch. More Dalish demonizing and gaslighting.
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Post by cloud9 on Mar 15, 2017 8:50:06 GMT
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Post by phoray on Jun 6, 2017 21:50:26 GMT
The Templar? Soldier? in Arl Howe's dungeon that ate darkspawn flesh screamed about Flemeth (The witch! The witch!). Why? Flemeth get bored of saving wardens and Hawkes and screw with some deserters?
This is related as I am discussing Flemythal who is an elvhen spirit.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 7, 2017 19:57:32 GMT
Could you remind me of what he says exactly? It is so long ago since I played that sequence and I have to admit I didn't listen to his babbling with much attention considering he had just been sent crazy by lyrium withdrawal (I assume you mean the Templar) or was there another crazy guy down there too? I don't recall any mention of the guy eating darkspawn flesh but as I say it is a very long time ago. (I really will have to play DAO through again).
Now if you are referring to the Templar, Morrigan mentions how back when she was a girl Flemeth used to have "fun" toying with Templars using Morrigan as bait to lead them to their doom. So may be that Templar was involved with one of those parties but escaped with his life and in his lyrium addled state was muddling up a lot of his memories. The one in Arl Howe's dungeon had specifically been the Templar pursuing Jowan, who was then captured and incarcerated to prevent him from intervening in Redcliffe, so he couldn't have been involved with darkspawn or Flemeth immediately prior to his capture as this would have been before the assault at Ostagar when Flemeth was still at her hut in the wilds with Morrigan and the darkspawn were still deep in the Korcari Wilds.
However, I will say that Flemythal is said to be a capricious being. The Dalish are aware that you only go to her if you are desperate and she is just as likely to kill you as help you (which actually sounds a lot like Mythal as described in her own Temple). The Chasind would also seek her out if they wanted vengeance on someone but invariably it never turns out the way they expected and they end up regretting their decision to involve her, having ended up giving more than they would have wanted to in return for her help.
We only have Solas' word for the fact that she is the one good Evanuris who cared for her people and protected them. To be honest may be the emphasis should be on her people. Apparently it was only her followers/worshipers in her cities that she was particularly bothered about. After all, when Falon'Din is creating rivers of blood she only intervenes when it affects her people. So really the attitude displayed by Flemeth seems entirely consistent with that of the goddess of Mythal inhabiting her. She helps people as the whim takes her or if it is in her own interests to do so.
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Post by phoray on Jun 7, 2017 20:21:36 GMT
gervaise21 It's Rexel a soldier from Ostagar. Typed most of it up here: "They said to retreat. The horn sounded and then there were screams." *nonsense follows about darkspawn-flesh-blood* "They died!. And we left them. In the swamp. The Witch! The Witch!"Morrigan doesn't say anything in that video- I don't think she did on my most recent PT either. It all seems like just another Ruck situation until he specifcally mentions a witch in a swamp. Looking at the Wiki, apparently dialogue from Morrigan IS supposed to trigger.
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Post by phoray on Jun 7, 2017 20:26:53 GMT
Ooooo. I remember clicking on this article. I found it pretty lacking on developing it's point in a fashion that gets people to listen and learn- possibly all the curse words and racial slurs put me off. Don't recommend.
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Post by phoray on Jun 7, 2017 21:14:26 GMT
I must admit that I wonder what happens when a large number of Dalish die in one place. According to their culture, a tree is planted over the grave of each person, which as Alistair says is a lovely custom to use the death in a positive way to create new life. However, there is a big danger in Thedas of spirits coming through and occupying the corpses of the deceased, particularly if they have had a violent death. I know Felassan commented when they were being attacked by possessed skeletons, that burning the dead is one of the humans better ideas. So I wondered if they might have to burn the dead from practicality and then perhaps just gather the ashes to use for planting the trees. I think considering the book, The Masked Empire, the elves have too long left their dead whole to break tradition now. Maybe this is why there are so many Sylvans in the Brecillian Forest. There was a huge war there we don't even know what was about, but elves were involved. I have also wondered if burying dwarves in stone is not just about "returning them to the stone". Equally, a possessed corpse/skelton would find it difficult to shift a half ton to a full ton of stone off of themselves.
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Post by phoray on Jun 7, 2017 21:31:02 GMT
Flemythal wanted the Archdemon to be destroyed. But Solas thinks it's all a foolhardy plan. .. Seems like they'd be of one mind on this issue... From what I can recall, Solas was objecting to the Wardens intending to seek out and kill the uncorrupted Old Gods. I don't remember if he extends the same objection to the Archdemons so it may be that I am mistaken and that he does. It is possible he does since I don't he was awake during the Fifth Blight and so he dosen't know just how devastating and dangerous a Blight is. Flemeth seems to have been around for far longer or, at least, she has the knowledge of someone who has so she'd know what the Blights are like.
Solas was in contact with Falessan for as long as Falessan knew Briala, which was a couple of years- at least, that was my impression from the Masked Empire, when Briala ran away from the slaughter of her dead parents to find the Dalish and found Falessan. That was when Empress Celene killed them to become Empress, at the age of 16. That was 9:20 Dragon, meaning that Solas' plan was being put into place for 20+ years. To me, that means he was ....at least, not so deep in Uthenara , as to be able to make plans for his Awakening during the 5th Blight. He even speaks of visiting those events in the Fade- he doesn't mention a time. So either Falessan woke up before Solas, and worked on contacting him to waken him or lived in Thedas all along and Solas suddenly came to. But why would Falessan bother to get an elven spy in the Orlesian Government without the order from Solas? So, to me, Solas has been "aware" but still in uthenara for at least 25 years, waking up fully, taking control of his own body again, 6 months to a year prior to the Conclave Explosion.
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