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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 18, 2016 1:29:08 GMT
Dual-wielding AoE weapons potential works better then Leaping Shot for that. Especially considering leaping shot rarely hits with everything it has as it spreads out. Sides, the CD on crit passive is party wide. Unless your solo'ing you want the whole party kicking out crits to take advantage of that, not a reliance on a single archer ability. Well, if you've got a vid showing Spinning Blades or something else generating as many crits as Leaping Shot, I'm interested in seeing it. In every discussion I've had with folks that have tried it both ways, Leaping Shot is the clear winner. That reflects my personal experience as well. Sure, some of the Leaping Shot arrows miss, but even if 75% miss, the hits are enough to recharge your stamina to 100% and whack off most if not all of your cooldowns. It's true that Opportunity Knocks is fed by crits from the whole party, but in practice, my warriors and mages in the party didn't generate enough crits to match Leaping Shot. It's a nice bonus when they do, but I couldn't rely on it. Besides, with limited crit mats, I'd rather pile them all on my rogue, than split them across the whole party for the sake of Opportunity Knocks. Another reason Archer is better for Artificer is the focus ability, Hail of Arrows. It only works for Archer abilities.
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Post by Element Zero on Sept 18, 2016 4:38:17 GMT
How often are focus abilities typically usable, assuming one is not wearing focus-enhancing gear? Again, I just picked up the game again after completing a single, post-release playthrough. This leaves me somewhat ignorant of about 60% of the skills I've not yet employed, much, and very sketchy about many mechanics.
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Post by Adhin on Sept 18, 2016 6:34:19 GMT
Dual-wielding AoE weapons potential works better then Leaping Shot for that. Especially considering leaping shot rarely hits with everything it has as it spreads out. Sides, the CD on crit passive is party wide. Unless your solo'ing you want the whole party kicking out crits to take advantage of that, not a reliance on a single archer ability. Well, if you've got a vid showing Spinning Blades or something else generating as many crits as Leaping Shot, I'm interested in seeing it. In every discussion I've had with folks that have tried it both ways, Leaping Shot is the clear winner. That reflects my personal experience as well. Sure, some of the Leaping Shot arrows miss, but even if 75% miss, the hits are enough to recharge your stamina to 100% and whack off most if not all of your cooldowns. It's true that Opportunity Knocks is fed by crits from the whole party, but in practice, my warriors and mages in the party didn't generate enough crits to match Leaping Shot. It's a nice bonus when they do, but I couldn't rely on it. Besides, with limited crit mats, I'd rather pile them all on my rogue, than split them across the whole party for the sake of Opportunity Knocks. Another reason Archer is better for Artificer is the focus ability, Hail of Arrows. It only works for Archer abilities. Did you not watch the video earlier in this thread someone posted? They're literally solo'ing a dragon as an AoE dagger Artificer. And that focus ability is quite literally the 'only' thing on Artificer that makes it 'better for archers' and that's because it requires a bow to function. you can also buy crit mats from Black Imporium now. It's not that limited or expensive by end game. Hell before that I had all my party around 50% on my last Artificer. Look all im saying is don't discount melee rogues from Artificer cause of leap or that focus skill. It maybe your preference for them to be ranged. It's definitely my preference to be melee for them. Especially with 2 of there actual use skills are melee range abilities. All be it still useful for archers. edit: @element Zero : Ahh about Focus abilities. They tend to be saved for tough situations since they build up slowly. At base you only have 1/3rd of your focus bar available to you. You have to spend Inquisition Perks to upgrade that to the full 3/3. Depending on how full that is will determine how strong the ability in question is once used. It's definitely not something your gonna use every fight, or every other fight for that matter. Probably every dragon fight (depending on how often you fight a dragon), or any other major boss fight. I've used it a few times because some encounter is just absurdly created. Like in one of the DLC you end up having to fight a constant stream of enemies most of which are archers that love ignoring all your armor and doing a few thousand dmg to your tank. Guh. The Inquisitors power is pretty amazing though. It slows everything down it touchs and does a tremendous amount of damage per second while it's active. It'll tear apart ANY group almost instantly upon it's use at 3/3 charges making the other 5+ seconds its around almost pointless. It's part of the reason an Archer/ASsassin can kill Dragons in like 6 seconds flat. Mark, Longshot, Rift, hidden blade, throw out a longshot then detonate the mark often results in the dragon insta-dying lol. Especially if the mark crits - if it can still crit. edit2: Oh forgot to mention focus builds up from fighting. Everytime you or a party member does dmg it builds up a tiny bit of focus for the whole party. Though each individual party member has there own focus 'bar' and when they use an ability it only drains their personal focus bar. But yeah it's a slow build and requires combat to build up after it's use.
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Post by spacev3gan on Sept 18, 2016 9:18:28 GMT
Artificer: Works best for Archer, due to Leaping Shot being the best way to generate critical hits for Looked Like It Hurt and Opportunity Knocks. Throwing Blades works at least just as good as Leaping Shot. Inside large open spaces (Dragon fights), it works arguable better. I've done a few Highland Ravager speedrun solo attempts and I found that spamming Throwing Blades is surprisingly more effective. I haven't tried with the Belt of Urgency, though. After seeing a video of what this belt + Throwing Blades is capable of doing, I am really keen to try it. Taking advantage from increased attack speed is something which I don't see working well with Leaping Shot, unless you can prevent your character jumping farther from the target by using a wall or something.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 18, 2016 20:21:49 GMT
How often are focus abilities typically usable, assuming one is not wearing focus-enhancing gear? Again, I just picked up the game again after completing a single, post-release playthrough. This leaves me somewhat ignorant of about 60% of the skills I've not yet employed, much, and very sketchy about many mechanics. It depends. Some people never use them. Some people optimize their build to use the focus ability as often as possible. For an Inquisitor, I tend towards the never side. I still carry Mark of the Rift on my Inquisitor as a "Get out of jail free" card. If a Rift battle is getting too tedious, pop 3 bars of MotR over the demons, done. For party members, it varies to purpose. When I am Dragon hunting, I like having Vivienne and Cass and Sera in the party for their focus abilities, they are great help for fighting a dragon while under-leveled. For big mob battles, like in Descent or The Duchess boss battle, Blackwall's Counterstrike is awesome. So, it depends. In general, though, I consider them optional and nice to have most of the time, and then an actual burden in the late game, since they take up one of the eight precious ability slots.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 18, 2016 20:29:26 GMT
Look all im saying is don't discount melee rogues from Artificer cause of leap or that focus skill. It maybe your preference for them to be ranged. It's definitely my preference to be melee for them. Of course. Objectively, I'm making the case for why Archer is the best fit for Artificer, but subjectively, if one prefers to play DW and finds it more fun, by all means! I'm not trying to convince anyone to never play DW. Do what's fun for you, that's always the bottom line.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 18, 2016 20:46:18 GMT
Artificer: Works best for Archer, due to Leaping Shot being the best way to generate critical hits for Looked Like It Hurt and Opportunity Knocks. Throwing Blades works at least just as good as Leaping Shot. Inside large open spaces (Dragon fights), it works arguable better. I've done a few Highland Ravager speedrun solo attempts and I found that spamming Throwing Blades is surprisingly more effective. I haven't tried with the Belt of Urgency, though. After seeing a video of what this belt + Throwing Blades is capable of doing, I am really keen to try it. Taking advantage from increased attack speed is something which I don't see working well with Leaping Shot, unless you can prevent your character jumping farther from the target by using a wall or something. I really wanted Throwing Blades to be as effective, but my testing didn't show it to be so. At least for the build I was running. I didn't have the Belt of Urgency equipped during the test, though. Of course, it's also sensitive to your crit chance. I don't remember what mine was in the video below. I doubt that it was above 70%. For either single targets, like a dragon, or mobs, like the zombies at Citadelle du Corbeau, I couldn't get Throwing Blades to restore stamina as quickly as Leaping Shot. In the video below, towards the end (start at 5:45), I run the same mob battle three times. The first time I use Leaping Shot mostly, the second I use a mix of Throwing Blades and Elemental Mines, and the last I tried to use Throwing Blades mostly. If you watch the Stamina circle around the player status picture, you can see which is more effective at restoring stamina for a single ability usage. You can see a few times when doing a Throwing Blades doesn't restore any stamina. For a mob like that, I'd say Leaping Shot is the best, followed pretty closely by Elemental Mines, then Throwing Blades last.
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Post by spacev3gan on Sept 18, 2016 23:52:26 GMT
Well, you are right. Throwing Blades is not as efficient in terms of Stamina and Cooldown recharge. Leaping Shot beats Throwing Blades when it comes to that. Against mobs Elemental Mines might be better though.
Now in terms of raw damage against targets which can take lots of damage, it is disputable. Leaping Shot will likely do more damage if all shots hit the target, but chances are they won't. As you move farther from the target each time you cast it, Leaping Shot ends up being less effective each time it is used. Throwing Blades doesn't have these drawbacks, on the other hand it doesn't have the same number of crits per second, which is something I really didn't anticipate when I thought I could just pair it with the Belt of Urgency and take maximum advantage of (something which Tempests can do, at the cost of long cooldowns).
Anyway, I tried a Throwing Blades only Artificer Dragon solo and initially it wasn't that impressive. Cooldown was still a pain (playing in a party would have minimized that, as there would be more sources of crits). I then decided to use Tears of the Dead in an attempt to bump my crits per second, and it helped. It me took 20 seconds to beat Highland Ravager. Not that impressive compared to what Assassins or Tempests can do, let alone a Leaping Shot + Focus Artificer. But still, it kinda shows that you can do fine without Leaping Shot.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 19, 2016 1:08:12 GMT
Well, you are right. Throwing Blades is not as efficient in terms of Stamina and Cooldown recharge. Leaping Shot beats Throwing Blades when it comes to that. Against mobs Elemental Mines might be better though. Now in terms of raw damage against targets which can take lots of damage, it is disputable. Leaping Shot will likely do more damage if all shots hit the target, but chances are they won't. As you move farther from the target each time you cast it, Leaping Shot ends up being less effective each time it is used. Throwing Blades doesn't have these drawbacks, on the other hand it doesn't have the same number of crits per second, which is something I really didn't anticipate when I thought I could just pair it with the Belt of Urgency and take maximum advantage of (something which Tempests can do, at the cost of long cooldowns). Anyway, I tried a Throwing Blades only Artificer Dragon solo and initially it wasn't that impressive. Cooldown was still a pain (playing in a party would have minimized that, as there would be more sources of crits). I then decided to use Tears of the Dead in an attempt to bump my crits per second, and it helped. It me took 20 seconds to beat Highland Ravager. Not that impressive compared to what Assassins or Tempests can do, let alone a Leaping Shot + Focus Artificer. But still, it kinda shows that you can do fine without Leaping Shot. Awesome! Love the video and very impressive use of Throwing Blades. Cooldowns look like the bottleneck, but just a couple of auto-attacks seem to get TB back up quick enough. Could give Tempest's Flask of Fire a run for the money. Mighty Offense would probably give more bang for the buck over Tears of the Dead, with respect to tonics. In a way, the faster you kill the target, the less value you get out of the DoT from TofD, whereas Mighty Offense pays off on every hit. Did you try a force multiplier, like Hidden Blades or Walking Bomb Masterworks? Between Leaping Shot and Throwing Blades, it still might be close. It would depend on how quickly you can string the Leaping Shots together. With Hook & Tackle/It Beats Walking, I could string them together maybe 5 seconds apart, but probably not as quickly as you were able to get TB back off cooldown. For large targets like dragons, I could do two Leaping Shots to one H&T, which improved damage output, but hmmm ... still might not be enough to match Throwing Blades. Very interesting. I might do some comparisons with my Artificer build to see if I can get TB damage as high as you did and then switch to Leaping Shot.
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Post by Element Zero on Sept 19, 2016 2:50:35 GMT
Thanks for the input on focus skills PapaCharlie9 and Adhin. I know all that one can know from reading the text; but I haven't used the skills, other than dropping MotR on dragons with my Rogue. With my mages, I found my power wheel filled too quickly to even get around to that. It's a shame they didn't make the focus skills a separate, stand alone thing, or just give us more toys for a game that features level 25+ characters. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing out on some great feature, and it seems I wasn't, really. I will definitely check out some of my crew's skills, knowing each teammate has their own focus pool. That's huge. I'd been eying Sera's "Thousand Cuts", and I'll take a look at the others' powers, as well. I don't usually get around to spending perks on focus until very late game. I'll hopefully have space on my power wheel this time through the game. The assassin archer seems less diverse than my mages, so I'm hopeful. I've only reached level 14 or 15, now, with an elf. I'm now auto-critting from Stealth, but won't have Mark until next level. Then, my toolkit will essentially be complete, in terms of skills. (The golden nug is insanely broken and I honestly like having it, but I mistakenly thought it was going to import all of my equipment. I was vaguely disappointed that I had to earn my amulets, belts and rings, once more. I'm sure it's for the best. Wouldn't want OP to become Uber-OP, I guess.)
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Post by spacev3gan on Sept 19, 2016 7:47:13 GMT
Awesome! Love the video and very impressive use of Throwing Blades. Cooldowns look like the bottleneck, but just a couple of auto-attacks seem to get TB back up quick enough. Could give Tempest's Flask of Fire a run for the money. Mighty Offense would probably give more bang for the buck over Tears of the Dead, with respect to tonics. In a way, the faster you kill the target, the less value you get out of the DoT from TofD, whereas Mighty Offense pays off on every hit. Did you try a force multiplier, like Hidden Blades or Walking Bomb Masterworks? Between Leaping Shot and Throwing Blades, it still might be close. It would depend on how quickly you can string the Leaping Shots together. With Hook & Tackle/It Beats Walking, I could string them together maybe 5 seconds apart, but probably not as quickly as you were able to get TB back off cooldown. For large targets like dragons, I could do two Leaping Shots to one H&T, which improved damage output, but hmmm ... still might not be enough to match Throwing Blades. Very interesting. I might do some comparisons with my Artificer build to see if I can get TB damage as high as you did and then switch to Leaping Shot. Nice! The Tempest can do better damage indeed, thanks to Flask of Fire. But of course that comes at a cost of long cooldowns. During this video I drank both Tears of the Dead and Mighty Offense Tonics. Tears of the Dead doesn't do much in terms of damage against a Dragon, but that one critical hit that ticks each second translates to 0.5 second off my cooldowns, which is helpful. I am using Fade-Touched Plush Fustian Velvet for 5 hits of Hidden Blades and Fade-Touched Hardened Gurn Hide for 30% extra damage. I have 64% crit chance and 236% crit damage. Now I believe that Leaping Shot can do better damage against a Dragon, but as you keep jumping backwards after each cast it becomes less and less effective on large open spaces.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 19, 2016 19:36:34 GMT
Now I believe that Leaping Shot can do better damage against a Dragon, but as you keep jumping backwards after each cast it becomes less and less effective on large open spaces. Right, that's why I have to spend time doing Hook&Tackle, to get back in close range. There's no stamina cost, but it's time not doing any damage.
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Post by spacev3gan on Sept 27, 2016 7:54:12 GMT
I finally gave Flask Of Fire + Throwing Blades + Belt Of Urgency a try and the results are pretty respectful. I am starting to like the Tempest a bit more than I used to.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 27, 2016 19:01:52 GMT
"the results are pretty respectful" is a bit of an understatement, don't ya think? You speedkilled the poor Sandy Howler. Question about your gear: Sigil of the Deepstalker and Malika's Guard? Why? Was that the only way to get Attack% above 0, by sacrificing 50% of the Sigil bonus? I'd ditch Malika's Guard and just live with the penalty. You are so OP as it is that I hardly think you'll notice it on frontal attacks. Besides, there's the opportunity cost of not having something like the Superb Stamina, Cooldown or Lifeward amulet, or Superb Amulet of Second Wind.
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Post by spacev3gan on Sept 27, 2016 20:24:45 GMT
Question about your gear: Sigil of the Deepstalker and Malika's Guard? Why? Was that the only way to get Attack% above 0, by sacrificing 50% of the Sigil bonus? I'd ditch Malika's Guard and just live with the penalty. You are so OP as it is that I hardly think you'll notice it on frontal attacks. Besides, there's the opportunity cost of not having something like the Superb Stamina, Cooldown or Lifeward amulet, or Superb Amulet of Second Wind. This is not a build that I actually play my games with, it was just an experiment with Sera. If it were my Inquisitor, I might have gone for different gear. More Stamina would likely be my choice for a full build. But for Sera I just wanted something to dispatch a Dragon quickly and Malika's Amulet adds many benefits at the cost of -50% Flank Damage. Maybe using just a Dex Amulet would have been better, I am not sure.
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Post by kalas on Jan 18, 2017 7:28:46 GMT
for anyone reading this. go with the artificer.
low/no cooldowns with opportunity knocks. aeo damage with the elemental mines. and high single target dps. use aegis of the rift with retributive strike upgrade next to the enemy. then toss elemental mines facing enemy. the spirit damage stacks quickly.
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Post by cooldude on Jan 19, 2017 8:42:01 GMT
I find DW Artificer really fun and Artificer in general to be super fun. What makes this class shine for me is the extremely fast cooldown and the Elemental Mines. Most people select the tempest due to its Flask of Fire skill which eliminates cooldown. However, with the Artificer's Opportunity Knocks Passive and a high Crit Chance (70% or higher), you will pretty much be in Flask of Fire state permanently. And the high Crit Chance works wonders with the Passive Looks like it hurts and the Sigil of the Great Bear. Another great advantage of the Artificer over other specializations is AOE damage - the Artificer is the only Rogue capable of AOE damage thanks to Elemental Mines, which helps a lot when it comes to killing large mobs of enemies. As for Boss killing, the Archer Artificer is far superior to the DW one, there is no comparison. The Artificer Focus Ability is unfortunately Archer-only. The DW Assassin and the DW Tempest also outclass the DW Artificer when it comes to Boss killing. Now even behind the competitors, the DW Artificer is still a decent Boss killer. This is a video I made a few days ago: I think the pwnage was so high that you glitched out the dragon's AI, and the AI didn't know what to do.
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Post by melbella on Jan 20, 2017 2:38:50 GMT
^^ Undoubtedly. My last game went berserk vs the Librarians in Trespasser due to too many mines exploding at once, both from me and my Bow of Artifice.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Jan 26, 2017 13:27:13 GMT
^^ Undoubtedly. My last game went berserk vs the Librarians in Trespasser due to too many mines exploding at once, both from me and my Bow of Artifice. I remember your mentioning bow of artificer but I have not run into it. I doubt I'll be pairing archer rogue with anything but artificer. I always go stealth, order the party to attack the mobs, then sneaked from behind / outflank to dump the mines at the mobs' feet. Shoot several arrows, then as soon as the mobs noticed me, shoot LS almost point blank. Boom! I'm relying much on stealth / outflanking to deal the highest dmg available.
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Post by melbella on Jan 26, 2017 13:52:43 GMT
^^ Undoubtedly. My last game went berserk vs the Librarians in Trespasser due to too many mines exploding at once, both from me and my Bow of Artifice. I remember your mentioning bow of artificer but I have not run into it. I doubt I'll be pairing archer rogue with anything but artificer. I always go stealth, order the party to attack the mobs, then sneaked from behind / outflank to dump the mines at the mobs' feet. Shoot several arrows, then as soon as the mobs noticed me, shoot LS almost point blank. Boom! I'm relying much on stealth / outflanking to deal the highest dmg available.
It's a Trials reward, so you might have to save scum in order for it to "randomly" generate. I think it requires lvl 18 or something so if you get it early you still can't use it.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 29, 2017 1:21:23 GMT
Trying to make a decision, curious what other people think...I've been playing a Rogue Archer, finishing my "canon" playthrough for Inquisition. I'd been planning on making him an Archer, as I've used and enjoyed the combination before. However, I'm running into a point of frustration because due to my way of playing through the game, I'm already level 24, through Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts (though still not Here Lies the Abyss), and still haven't actually obtained a single Alpha Quillback Spine (plus, I admit I hate the Varric dialogue glitch with Artifice...just annoying). I've picked up enough stuff to be a Tempest or an Assassin twice over, so I'm thinking of giving up on the wait and just going with one of those...probably Assassin. I've been playing this build so far (plus Mark of the Rift) : www.rpg-gaming.com/daisc.html?d=t&c=r&b=Rogue%20-%20Sabotage&t3=134568de&t2=14789def&t1=12359ad&a=03113622e31341953dHead in with Stealth, open with Shadow Strike, drop a Toxic Cloud, then jump back out with Leaping Shot and clobber anything still standing with an Explosive Shot. No stamina concerns because I've got a Sigil of the Great Bear + Cheap Shot for refilling. The intent with with the Artificer Specialty is to use the passives and add Elemental Mines, because Elemental Mines is great. If I were to go Assassin, I could incorporate Mark of Death, and replace Shadow Strike with Hidden Blades, but then I lose the Shatter/Discharge combos with my Mages. Tempest would be harder, or, at least, more of a change because of how many activated slots it needs, although, if my Assassin hopes aren't all that viable anyway, that might not matter as much. Similarly, I suppose I could change to daggers as well if I'm going to deviate from the build plan, but I wouldn't even know where to start there.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 29, 2017 3:23:39 GMT
I'm already level 24, through Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts (though still not Here Lies the Abyss), and still haven't actually obtained a single Alpha Quillback Spine (plus, I admit I hate the Varric dialogue glitch with Artifice...just annoying). I feel your pain. It took forever to get my 3 the first time, and then in a separate run where I was aiming for Assassin, every place I turned in the Western Approach was full of Alpha Quillbacks! C'mon, Bioware! Your RNG is rigged! If I had to choose between Assassin and Tempest, my personal choice would be Tempest. I just find it more fun than Assassin. It does work better as DW, but it's still awesome even without Flask of Frost. And hey, one active slot freed up can't be all bad. Here are two alternative Tempest Archer loadouts that play completely differently, like two different classes: 1. Flask of Flame/Unquenchable Flame 2. Flask of Lightning/upgraded 3. Leaping Shot/upgraded 4. Explosive Arrow 5. Long Shot/upgraded 6. Throwing Blades/Precision Targeting 7. Full Draw or Poison Weapons 8. focus ability or 1. Flask of Flame/Flaming Chain 2. Poison Weapons 3. Full Draw 4. Explosive Arrow 5. Leaping Shot 6. Long Shot/Eagle Eye 7. Throwing Blades/Precision Targeting 8. focus ability The Flaming Chain upgrade forces you to pack your loadout with offensive abilities that you can use in a reasonable sequence, to get the most out of the Flask of Flame. You could even consider dropping the focus ability to fit something like Caltrops or Shadow Strike into the loadout.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 30, 2017 18:34:00 GMT
I ended up holding out for the Spines anyway, and to...exciting effect. Combined with a Sigil of the Great Bear, I make so many things explode so quickly, the game occasionally catapults me through the map and kills me in reprisal.
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Post by melbella on Jan 30, 2017 20:51:50 GMT
I ended up holding out for the Spines anyway, and to...exciting effect. Combined with a Sigil of the Great Bear, I make so many things explode so quickly, the game occasionally catapults me through the map and kills me in reprisal. Despite the dialogue glitches with Varric and the occasional crash/freeze due to so many explosions, Artificer is super fun to play.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 12:57:00 GMT
Which of the specialization will make gap closing the easiest and will require the least manual strafe/maintaining facing? Basically which one is the most like DW rogue in DA2? I just started the Inquisition, and afte DA2, the melee rogue feels so terribly impotent....
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