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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 19, 2017 22:02:58 GMT
It shouldn't have been possible for Alistair to become king of Ferelden. First of all, he's a bastard and there's no proof of his parentage. He might as well be a pretender - why on earth would the nobility of Ferelden accept him as their king? Secondly, he's a Grey Warden. Wardens were just not so long ago allowed to return to Ferelden after being exiled for attempted coup. Now you expect me to believe people would just accept him as their king? Not to mention, Wardens are not to meddle with politics. There's already unrest in Weisshaupt with rumors about the First Warden attempting to seize power in the Anderfells, but they just overlook Alistair abandoning the order to play king? Makes no sense, especially considering how secretive the Wardens are and now Alistair's main loyalty must be to his kingdom, so realistically he could be a threat to the Wardens. Thirdly, he has no credibility. He's not a leader and has no idea what it means to be a king. Yet suddenly (according to the codex entries in various games) he's a good king? Just like that? Pffft. There should've been consequences for giving the throne to an inexperienced moron like Alistair, rebellions and attempted coups, smallfolk revolts, diplomatic incidents with other nations (especially Orlais), keeping arl Eamon and the Warden busy since they're probably the ones who'd have to clean up after Alistair's mistakes. I think he'd be a catastrophic king and it's a shame the games don't reflect these choices realistically (instead every out come is pretty much the same for Alistair and Anora). I think Alistair either should never have been an option to be a king or if he was his reign should have been anything but happy and peaceful. Eamon would have been a much better choice for king, just like Alistair himself said. I can't disagree with anything that you've said since your points make it impossible to form any good argument against it.I had noticed long ago this issue,the fact that there is no way to prove that Alistair is Maric son regardless of what Eamon says since his existence was kept a secret and the only one who could somehow prove it is Maric himself,which is not in the game. So why the nobles should believe that he is son of Maric is beyond my understanding. Well, everyone seems to take it as read that Eamon isn't going to lie to them. Whether or not that's wise is up for debate, but there you go.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 19, 2017 22:04:37 GMT
That seems to be more popular than you think, actually. I don't share that opinion, but others here seem to. Maybe it would be comforting to remember that plot armor only works as long as the devs say it does? Morrigan could very well die in DA4. I begun to share that opinion when I had saw her survive a fall from the sky in DAI for no reason and without any damages,i think that made no sense at all. She didn't look undamaged to me. She looked like she was seriously in need of a long stay in bed not lifting anything heavier than a light cup of soup. At best.
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Post by oyabun on Apr 19, 2017 22:05:08 GMT
I can't disagree with anything that you've said since your points make it impossible to form any good argument against it.I had noticed long ago this issue,the fact that there is no way to prove that Alistair is Maric son regardless of what Eamon says since his existence was kept a secret and the only one who could somehow prove it is Maric himself,which is not in the game. So why the nobles should believe that he is son of Maric is beyond my understanding. Well, everyone seems to take it as read that Eamon isn't going to lie to them. Whether or not that's wise is up for debate, but there you go. That makes 0 sense,Maric should be the only one able to accomplish that,I can't buy that all the nobles were just OK with that.
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Post by oyabun on Apr 19, 2017 22:06:54 GMT
I begun to share that opinion when I had saw her survive a fall from the sky in DAI for no reason and without any damages,i think that made no sense at all. She didn't look undamaged to me. She looked like she was seriously in need of a long stay in bed not lifting anything heavier than a light cup of soup. At best.Well too bad that it took her less than 5 minutes to stand-up. Seriously a fall like that should be an instant kill,just like it happened to the guardian of Mythal who was in fact killed because of that.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 19, 2017 22:28:53 GMT
Well, everyone seems to take it as read that Eamon isn't going to lie to them. Whether or not that's wise is up for debate, but there you go. That makes 0 sense,Maric should be the only one able to accomplish that,I can't buy that all the nobles were just OK with that. I'm not going to say makes no sense. They look overly credulous assuming on the strength of this one man's testimony that what he says is true, but since we're given to understand he's considered respectable, I can at least conceive of a worldview where they'd accept his word that Maric was Alistair's father and move on to thinking about whether that matters... even if I wouldn't do that.
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Post by oyabun on Apr 19, 2017 22:41:05 GMT
That makes 0 sense,Maric should be the only one able to accomplish that,I can't buy that all the nobles were just OK with that. I'm not going to say makes no sense. They look overly credulous assuming on the strength of this one man's testimony that what he says is true, but since we're given to understand he's considered respectable, I can at least conceive of a worldview where they'd accept his word that Maric was Alistair's father and move on to thinking about whether that matters... even if I wouldn't do that. I still believe it makes no sense. These are nobles,clever and educated people who are not going to believe things just like that,simply because Eamon say so,heck they don't even know who his parents are(his Mother being an elf) and they are going to make him a king no objection? When they already have two better candidates( Eamon|Anora)?Gaider truly was bad in terms of logic consistency imho he wanted this character to be king by developing the reasons as for why he shouldn't have been one. As I've stated before why don't make anyone king at this point if it only needs Eamon words to be believed as son of Maric?
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Post by Catilina on Apr 19, 2017 22:43:47 GMT
My unpopular opinions? I believe anyone who believes "free" mages will instantly result in a Tevinter 2.0 or will instantly wreak unchecked havoc just because the Circles aren't a thing are either really overestimating the mages or really underestimating the natural tendency for people to defend their positions of power and way of life. That actually seems to be a pretty popular one. But the dumb mages will start wreaking havoc pretty much instantly. Some might go Chaotic Evil and start doing what the CEs in the Hinterlands did. I imagine they won't last long. The slightly smarter ones will join organized crime groups and move up. The lucky ones might even live to have children, and those children might be born mages. Those children might go legit, or they might learn how to do crime well from their parents. The actually smart ones? Well, it depends on how ambitious they are. Some probably won't live lives that different from what they did in the Circle, only they'll be getting more sunlight and working directly for the people instead of for the Templars. The smart and ambitious ones will get jobs working for the authorities. Then they might use blood magic to bend them and control them behind the scenes. That might backfire, but until and unless it does an amoral mage has way more power than they should. Or a mage who doesn't like that plan (either because of the risk or for moral reasons) might just use their much greater than normal power to start racking up accomplishments in service to their sovereign, and maybe get a few fiefs here and there. They don't rule, but if that mage has a child, that mage starts as a lord, and when they marry, that mage's child might marry someone more powerful and get into a stronger family. Or a mage born to a noble family* just keeps their title, and starts using their power to increase their family's prestige. Eventually the mage's descendants start marrying into royal lines, and the heads of state start being born mages. Then any noble of status enough to marry into the royal family starts getting some mage blood, and more and more of the most politically powerful people are mages. I don't think Tevinter 2.0 will happen instantly, but absent any controls I think it would happen. * That does seem to happen a lot, doesn't it? I think the thing where Southern Noble houses turn out to be founded by cadet members of Tevinter families a la the Trevelyans must be pretty common. Every noble family has mage born, I suppose. These weak Circles can't prevent your dark vision. In the Circles were the mages, who were law-abiding, if you say, that these are so dangerous, these would be able to escape anytime... in fact, this doesn't depend on the magical power: Anders was capable of escaping seven times. He wasn't blood mage, always refused that. (I think, probably he was very rare in Southern Circles) Orsino would be able anytime, but he didn't want to leave, because in the Circle were the others, who needed his protection. At least he believed that. Only people (mages and non-mages together) can prevent a rise of a new Tevinter. And Tevinter's problem isn't that those who exercise power, are Mages. The problem is the moral, the slavery. Loghain wasn't Mage, but used Uldred. Lord Seeker Lucius wasn't Mage, but used a demon.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 19, 2017 22:53:40 GMT
I'm not going to say makes no sense. They look overly credulous assuming on the strength of this one man's testimony that what he says is true, but since we're given to understand he's considered respectable, I can at least conceive of a worldview where they'd accept his word that Maric was Alistair's father and move on to thinking about whether that matters... even if I wouldn't do that. I still believe it makes no sense. These are nobles,clever and educated people who are not going to believe things just like that,simply because Eamon say so,heck they don't even know who his parents are(his Mother being an elf) and they are going to make him a king no objection? When they already have two better candidates( Eamon|Anora)?Gaider truly was bad in terms of logic consistency imho he wanted this character to be king by developing the reasons as for why he shouldn't have been one. As I've started before why don't make anyone king at this point if it only nerds Eamon words to be believed as son of Maric. These are nobles. They are clever and educated people. That they aren't going to believe something just because Eamon says it doesn't necessarily follow from those, though. Obviously if your PC says Alistair's Maric's son they're not going to buy it on the strength of no other evidence, but they know Eamon. He's apparently never been caught lying to them before, and built up a reputation for virtue. There have been cultures where that's been enough to get your word believed uncritically. Though you're also overstating how easy that makes getting him onto the throne. As I recall until Loghain starts messing things up for her most of the nobles still want Anora on the throne even after they've heard the news and accepted that Alistair is who Eamon says he is.
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Post by oyabun on Apr 19, 2017 23:00:26 GMT
I still believe it makes no sense. These are nobles,clever and educated people who are not going to believe things just like that,simply because Eamon say so,heck they don't even know who his parents are(his Mother being an elf) and they are going to make him a king no objection? When they already have two better candidates( Eamon|Anora)?Gaider truly was bad in terms of logic consistency imho he wanted this character to be king by developing the reasons as for why he shouldn't have been one. As I've started before why don't make anyone king at this point if it only nerds Eamon words to be believed as son of Maric. These are nobles. They are clever and educated people. That they aren't going to believe something just because Eamon says it doesn't necessarily follow from those, though. Obviously if your PC says Alistair's Maric's son they're not going to buy it on the strength of no other evidence, but they know Eamon. He's apparently never been caught lying to them before, and built up a reputation for virtue. There have been cultures where that's been enough to get your word believed uncritically. Though you're also overstating how easy that makes getting him onto the throne. As I recall until Loghain starts messing things up for her most of the nobles still want Anora on the throne even after they've heard the news and accepted that Alistair is who Eamon says he is. That doesn't really adress the issue. It's not easy to put him on the throne due to all the quests that need to be solved to cure Eamon and call the Landsmeet,but the fact still remains that Maric has never acknoweldged Alistair and the only people who had the authority to prove that he was Maric' son were either dead(Cailan/Rowan),missing(Maric) or enemies(Loghain/Anora).
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 19, 2017 23:03:17 GMT
These are nobles. They are clever and educated people. That they aren't going to believe something just because Eamon says it doesn't necessarily follow from those, though. Obviously if your PC says Alistair's Maric's son they're not going to buy it on the strength of no other evidence, but they know Eamon. He's apparently never been caught lying to them before, and built up a reputation for virtue. There have been cultures where that's been enough to get your word believed uncritically. Though you're also overstating how easy that makes getting him onto the throne. As I recall until Loghain starts messing things up for her most of the nobles still want Anora on the throne even after they've heard the news and accepted that Alistair is who Eamon says he is. That doesn't really adress the issue. It's not easy to put him on the throne due to all the quests that need to be solved to cure Eamon and call the Landsmeet,but the fact still remains that Maric has never acknoweldged Alistair and the only people who had proof of him being Maric son were either dead,missing or enemies. Your counterargument in that post really only seems to apply to the second paragraph. The actual reply to your posts was in the first paragraph, where I point out that Eamon seems to have enough social capital that him saying something is a decent substitute for actual evidence as far as Ferelden's concerned.
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Post by Prince on Apr 19, 2017 23:07:44 GMT
Your counterargument in that post really only seems to apply to the second paragraph. The actual reply to your posts was in the first paragraph, where I point out that Eamon seems to have enough social capital that him saying something is a decent substitute for actual evidence as far as Ferelden's concerned. Why the nobles should believe in his word?It doesn't matter who he is if he want to prove something he needs evidences,just like he did when he adviced to find some proof against Loghain he didn't just said they will believe it.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 19, 2017 23:12:49 GMT
Your counterargument in that post really only seems to apply to the second paragraph. The actual reply to your posts was in the first paragraph, where I point out that Eamon seems to have enough social capital that him saying something is a decent substitute for actual evidence as far as Ferelden's concerned. Why the nobles should believe in his word?It doesn't matter who he is if he want to prove something he needs evidences,just like he did when he adviced to find some proof against Loghain he didn't just said they will believe it. I don't remember saying that their system should work like that. I'm pretty sure all I said was that it's not impossible to believe that it does.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Apr 19, 2017 23:18:05 GMT
I had noticed long ago this issue,the fact that there is no way to prove that Alistair is Maric son regardless of what Eamon says since his existence was kept a secret and the only one who could somehow prove it is Maric himself,which is not in the game. So why the nobles should believe that he is son of Maric is beyond my understanding. They don't need to believe it to be true. They just have to find it politically expedient to claim it's true. Without Alistair, the only people with a legitimate claim to the throne are Eamon and Tegan. Why no one suggests them I have no idea. Making Anora Queen makes no sense.
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Post by Prince on Apr 19, 2017 23:20:18 GMT
Why the nobles should believe in his word?It doesn't matter who he is if he want to prove something he needs evidences,just like he did when he adviced to find some proof against Loghain he didn't just said they will believe it. I don't remember saying that their system should work like that. I'm pretty sure all I said was that it's not impossible to believe that it does. I believe it is impossible to believe that it does because it required him evidences to prove Loghain guilty,his word wasn't enough for that so why it should be enough to make someone a king?
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Post by Prince on Apr 19, 2017 23:21:50 GMT
I had noticed long ago this issue,the fact that there is no way to prove that Alistair is Maric son regardless of what Eamon says since his existence was kept a secret and the only one who could somehow prove it is Maric himself,which is not in the game. So why the nobles should believe that he is son of Maric is beyond my understanding. They don't need to believe it to be true. They just have to find it politically expedient to claim it's true. Without Alistair, the only people with a legitimate claim to the throne are Eamon and Tegan. Why no one suggests them I have no idea. Making Anora Queen makes no sense. Why? She is Cailan's widow and was Queen consort for 5 years and everyone knows that,it does not need to be proved the fact that she is a noble.On the other hand nothing about Alistair legacy can be proved or now I'm going to pick a blonde pesant from Haven and force Eamon to claim that he is son of Maric.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 19, 2017 23:24:48 GMT
I had noticed long ago this issue,the fact that there is no way to prove that Alistair is Maric son regardless of what Eamon says since his existence was kept a secret and the only one who could somehow prove it is Maric himself,which is not in the game. So why the nobles should believe that he is son of Maric is beyond my understanding. They don't need to believe it to be true. They just have to find it politically expedient to claim it's true. Without Alistair, the only people with a legitimate claim to the throne are Eamon and Tegan. Why no one suggests them I have no idea. Making Anora Queen makes no sense. Wait, if Anora doesn't have a claim why does Eamon? I thought his claim rested on his sister marrying the king right before Cailan, and the respect he had in the Landsmeet. Anora has respect in the Landsmeet too, and she actually married the king who just died. I'll grant that that's a weak claim, but if it's not a claim at all why is Eamon's a claim?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 19, 2017 23:29:23 GMT
I don't remember saying that their system should work like that. I'm pretty sure all I said was that it's not impossible to believe that it does. I believe it is impossible to believe that it does because it required him evidences to prove Loghain guilty,his word wasn't enough for that so why it should be enough to make someone a king? Well, again: everyone accepting that Alistair was Maric's son wasn't enough to make him King. There was a whole lot of other stuff that needed to be done. I'm also not sure getting everyone to accept that Maric had a son out of wedlock is the same kind of challenge as getting everyone to accept that someone everyone respects more than they do Eamon (since Loghain did save everyone's bacon a few decades ago) is now a certifiable supercriminal.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 19, 2017 23:30:30 GMT
I'll grant that that's a weak claim, but if it's not a claim at all why is Eamon's a claim? I don't think that's a weak claim. Being a noble being popular among the nobles,have being member of the crown as Queen consort,that's by far the strongest claim to the throne in the game.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 19, 2017 23:37:49 GMT
I don't think that's a weak claim. Being a nobles being popular among the nobles,have being member of the crown as Queen consort,that's by far the strongest claim to the throne in the game. At least in medieval England, which I'd assumed this system was based on, that wouldn't have been considered strong at all. The crown was supposed to go to the eldest surviving son, and to daughters if there were no surviving sons. What happens if that's not an option takes more explaining than I'm willing to do, but the wife isn't involved except as the mother of the heirs. I'd assumed the only reason she gets away with trying to spin this into a claim to the throne at all is because Alistair's claim is at least as sketchy due to the fact that he's a bastard, and thus doesn't legally count as the son of the king for this purpose. (Which I suppose could make Anora's claim by far the strongest in the game, but that means way less than you seem to think.)
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 19, 2017 23:43:38 GMT
I believe it is impossible to believe that it does because it required him evidences to prove Loghain guilty,his word wasn't enough for that so why it should be enough to make someone a king? Well, again: everyone accepting that Alistair was Maric's son wasn't enough to make him King. There was a whole lot of other stuff that needed to be done. I'm also not sure getting everyone to accept that Maric had a son out of wedlock is the same kind of challenge as getting everyone to accept that someone everyone respects more than they do Eamon (since Loghain did save everyone's bacon a few decades ago) is now a certifiable supercriminal. I don't know if it is the same kind of challenge,however at that point of the game many nobles were already against Loghain and he did in fact imprisoned or killed some of them,so they had proof that he was a criminal even without the need to use those papers from Caladrius,they had no proof to accept Alistair as heir however so the challenge to prove him king is higher than prove Loghain guilty. You make it seems that everyone in Ferelden is an imbecile who is just going to take Eamon's claims for granted just because the game(for no reason) works that way.I do wonder why in Russia nobody believed in all the fake Anastasia that were usually to pop up,but in Ferelden they believe in everything they are being told.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 19, 2017 23:49:56 GMT
At least in medieval England, which I'd assumed this system was based on, that wouldn't have been considered strong at all. The crown was supposed to go to the eldest surviving son, and to daughters if there were no surviving sons. What happens if that's not an option takes more explaining than I'm willing to do, but the wife isn't involved except as the mother of the heirs. I'd assumed the only reason she gets away with trying to spin this into a claim to the throne at all is because Alistair's claim is at least as sketchy due to the fact that he's a bastard, and thus doesn't legally count as the son of the king for this purpose. (Which I suppose could make Anora's claim by far the strongest in the game, but that means way less than you seem to think.) This system is not based on medieval England it is based on the folkmoot.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 19, 2017 23:54:37 GMT
At least in medieval England, which I'd assumed this system was based on, that wouldn't have been considered strong at all. The crown was supposed to go to the eldest surviving son, and to daughters if there were no surviving sons. What happens if that's not an option takes more explaining than I'm willing to do, but the wife isn't involved except as the mother of the heirs. I'd assumed the only reason she gets away with it at all is because Alistair's claim is at least as sketchy due to the fact that he's a bastard, and thus doesn't legally count as the son of the king for this purpose. (Which I suppose could make Anora's claim by far the strongest in the game, but that means way less than you seem to think.) I suppose Alistair's claim much more Aemon Arl's claim. Aemon has power, but I think, he has enemies as well, or he think, he doesn't have enough supporters. So: he thinks more secure, if he uses Marric's bloodline for receive more supporters. I think, Anora isn't a queen, she was a queen consort. In this times Ferelden has interregnum, and Anora (and Loghain) is just the regent. Cousland, Eamon, Tegan and Alistair could be strong throne pretenders.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 19, 2017 23:58:09 GMT
Well, again: everyone accepting that Alistair was Maric's son wasn't enough to make him King. There was a whole lot of other stuff that needed to be done. I'm also not sure getting everyone to accept that Maric had a son out of wedlock is the same kind of challenge as getting everyone to accept that someone everyone respects more than they do Eamon (since Loghain did save everyone's bacon a few decades ago) is now a certifiable supercriminal. I don't know if it is the same kind of challenge,however at that point of the game many nobles were already against Loghain and he did in fact imprisoned or killed some of them,so they had proof that he was a criminal even without the need to use those papers from Caladrius,they had no proof to accept Alistair as heir however so the challenge to prove him king is higher than prove Loghain guilty. Well, the nobles we see in the Landsmeet all seem to be on Loghain's side. (Partially because they don't know that Loghain had Irminric and Oswyn imprisoned.) I'd imagine most of the ones who weren't are dead. As for proving that Alistair's the king... well, we don't actually prove that he's the king. The Landsmeet decides that he's the king, based partially but not entirely on the fact that they believe he's Maric's son. Maybe part of the reason they accept that Alistair is Maric's son so easily is that they're not really weighing that as the most important factor in who should rule. Well, to some degree I think they are overly credulous. I've already pointed out I probably wouldn't have taken Eamon's word on this. But you seem to think they just believe everything they're being told without even considering it. We're not seeing decent evidence of that here... even if you could make a case with regards to Wulff since he trusts the Venatori more than a decade later and doesn't seem to have any real excuse. But this? They're giving someone they know and deeply respect the benefit of the doubt. If I think it's a bit simpleminded, I still think it's less so than everyone else here seems to think. (I guess that's my unpopular opinion.)
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 20, 2017 0:01:18 GMT
At least in medieval England, which I'd assumed this system was based on, that wouldn't have been considered strong at all. The crown was supposed to go to the eldest surviving son, and to daughters if there were no surviving sons. What happens if that's not an option takes more explaining than I'm willing to do, but the wife isn't involved except as the mother of the heirs. I'd assumed the only reason she gets away with trying to spin this into a claim to the throne at all is because Alistair's claim is at least as sketchy due to the fact that he's a bastard, and thus doesn't legally count as the son of the king for this purpose. (Which I suppose could make Anora's claim by far the strongest in the game, but that means way less than you seem to think.) This system is not based on medieval England it is based on the folkmoot. Which appears to have been part of medieval England. Does the folkmoot have any rules on this kind of thing I need to be taking into account?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2017 1:37:36 GMT
Loghain is the best, most compelling character in the series thus far. Loghain is definitely by far my favorite antagonist to date. Solas has the potential to surpass him in the next game, but I will have to wait and see what the devs do with him. Also, to add to my unpopular opinions, Carver is the best Hawke sibling.
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