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Post by xerrai on Apr 20, 2017 2:02:57 GMT
My unpopular opinions? I believe anyone who believes "free" mages will instantly result in a Tevinter 2.0 or will instantly wreak unchecked havoc just because the Circles aren't a thing are either really overestimating the mages or really underestimating the natural tendency for people to defend their positions of power and way of life. That actually seems to be a pretty popular one.
But the dumb mages will start wreaking havoc pretty much instantly. Some might go Chaotic Evil and start doing what the CEs in the Hinterlands did. I imagine they won't last long. The slightly smarter ones will join organized crime groups and move up. The lucky ones might even live to have children, and those children might be born mages. Those children might go legit, or they might learn how to do crime well from their parents. The actually smart ones? Well, it depends on how ambitious they are. Some probably won't live lives that different from what they did in the Circle, only they'll be getting more sunlight and working directly for the people instead of for the Templars. The smart and ambitious ones will get jobs working for the authorities. Then they might use blood magic to bend them and control them behind the scenes. That might backfire, but until and unless it does an amoral mage has way more power than they should. Or a mage who doesn't like that plan (either because of the risk or for moral reasons) might just use their much greater than normal power to start racking up accomplishments in service to their sovereign, and maybe get a few fiefs here and there. They don't rule, but if that mage has a child, that mage starts as a lord, and when they marry, that mage's child might marry someone more powerful and get into a stronger family. Or a mage born to a noble family* just keeps their title, and starts using their power to increase their family's prestige. Eventually the mage's descendants start marrying into royal lines, and the heads of state start being born mages. Then any noble of status enough to marry into the royal family starts getting some mage blood, and more and more of the most politically powerful people are mages. I don't think Tevinter 2.0 will happen instantly, but absent any controls I think it would happen. * That does seem to happen a lot, doesn't it? I think the thing where Southern Noble houses turn out to be founded by cadet members of Tevinter families a la the Trevelyans must be pretty common. Really? I always seem to hear the opposite. Usually by others who think letting the mages out of the Circle system will only end in disaster. As if the only result of ending the Circle system is corruption and madness on the people of thedas, even if some mages are good intentioned. Tbh even though I considered these scenarios myself I think they will be partially avoided purely because of how paranoid people are. Nations could very well adopt the Chantry's "No mage is allowed noble titles or land" if they are so insecure (which they likely are) about mages usurping the upper class. God knows they do this for races and mixed-raced children who don't appear human. As for every other "blood mage, abusive mage, politically savy mage, etc." threat? Well there's not much to say about it. It will happen. Just like it happened in the Circles. I just don't think it will be as prolific of a problem as many seem to think. Or at the very least, it won't be enough of a problem to reinstate the former Circle system again. The mages will be policed one way or another. Be it by Templar Order or adaptive national forces. Only a foolish nation would let them go about without safeguards. In fact I suspect certain mages to start forming criminal societies and the like (and its implied they already do in the Circles). But I also see mages genuinely wanting to aid or fight against magical corruption, and mage groups specifically dedicated to ensuring that apostates never gain undue political footholds. But I don't see why these endless 'what-if-the-bad-mages-do-X' hypotheticals--or even the inevitable abuses---are good enough reason to deny all mages several rights (including the right to pursue a normal life) simply because they are born a mage. *Actually while I would not say it happens a lot, its not unheard of. For nobles who are not afraid of mage child ruining their reputation, certain mages have been able to use their position from within the Circle to increase the prestige of both themselves and of their families. Others are simply born to nobles and gain unprecedented privileges in comparison to other mages. Including the opportunity to not be sent to the Circle (with varrying degrees of success, Connor and Lienne de Monstimmard are prime modern examples). While we don't know exactly how "mage potential" works on a genetic level--or if its even just operates on a genetic level--it is pretty telling that no matter the Chantry's attempts to curtail mages from reproducing, mages still maintain a steady population. By this point its safe to say that most noble families have mage potential in their family somewhere. But then, the same could be said of commoner families.
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Post by phoray on Apr 20, 2017 8:13:30 GMT
I'm getting fuzzy on the Landsmeet scene sice I haven't played in a handful of months.
But isn't there a series of political finangling that doesn't involve Eamon at all? You can earn a dark vote via Crows. And shine a light on Loghain crime with the Templar that even the Chantry, a huge figure, is Against Loghain.
I'm also rather certain you don't have to be a biological Therin to be on the throne, you can absolutely be voted in based on popularity and political string pulling. But even then, they choose from the nobility.
Alistair was actually implied his whole life to be Eamon illegitimate son. So, regardless of Maric, he is of some noble line in that he is likely the son of an Arl. Teagan is the heir to Redcliffe and he can't be that AND King of Denerim, from my understanding of Fereldan politics.
Whereas Loghain is a peasant turned war hero who married another peasant and beget Anora. Who, based on Loghain/Maric bromance, got to marry Cailan. But that doesn't stop her from being peasant through and through. If Loghain hadn't been such a huge war hero and friend of Maric, then father of the queen consort, he'd have never remained in Denerim to have any power at all. Then, with no political tact, he offends half the bannorn right off the bat and doesn't even attempt to avoid a civil war with them as he attempts to sieze control of the throne with absolutely no claims. Ignoring that the Bannorn has to vote on a King, and that t has nothing to do with blood lines.
Eamon is well liked. Becoming King is a popularity contest. The Warden pulled a crap ton of strings. And Loghain screwed himself and kinda Anora out of the Crown by being a douchebag who planned to sieze the throne based on tenuous marriage claims and his hero status.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 20, 2017 10:16:45 GMT
Time magic should never have been a plotline in Thedas. It doesn't belong in the setting and made zero sense. I'm pretty sure the majority of people only defend it because it is the mage path and means you get to hook up with Dorian sooner. I think Dorian is awesome enough without making him into the Thedas Dr Who. If they were going to use it, then have a better explanation for it using Thedas magical lore. Also explain what happened to the sonic screwdriver (I mean amulet) after we return. Have a scene with Dorian actually destroying it so you know it can never again be used.
It is clear that the writers liked the plot because they used it to showcase the game. They should have stuck with a conventional blood magic explanation for Fiona's change of heart (we were dealing with Tevinter loyalists after all) and the same for the attempt to remove the Inquisitor (a Fade sequence just the same as for CoJ but this time in Redcliffe Castle with Dorian being the person coming to your rescue via his own knowledge of the Fade and spirits) after which you still have to fight through the Venatori to gain access to Alexius. That way Fiona can be excused her idiotic decision (because she was under blood magic mind control), so I don't have to resent the fact that she is still the nominal leader of the mage faction.
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Post by Melcara on Apr 20, 2017 10:31:32 GMT
Origins is my favorite DA game and has great combat. Also, I like Sera. And Vivienne. And I really dislike the idea of King Alistair.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 20, 2017 10:43:50 GMT
That actually seems to be a pretty popular one.
But the dumb mages will start wreaking havoc pretty much instantly. Some might go Chaotic Evil and start doing what the CEs in the Hinterlands did. I imagine they won't last long. The slightly smarter ones will join organized crime groups and move up. The lucky ones might even live to have children, and those children might be born mages. Those children might go legit, or they might learn how to do crime well from their parents. The actually smart ones? Well, it depends on how ambitious they are. Some probably won't live lives that different from what they did in the Circle, only they'll be getting more sunlight and working directly for the people instead of for the Templars. The smart and ambitious ones will get jobs working for the authorities. Then they might use blood magic to bend them and control them behind the scenes. That might backfire, but until and unless it does an amoral mage has way more power than they should. Or a mage who doesn't like that plan (either because of the risk or for moral reasons) might just use their much greater than normal power to start racking up accomplishments in service to their sovereign, and maybe get a few fiefs here and there. They don't rule, but if that mage has a child, that mage starts as a lord, and when they marry, that mage's child might marry someone more powerful and get into a stronger family. Or a mage born to a noble family* just keeps their title, and starts using their power to increase their family's prestige. Eventually the mage's descendants start marrying into royal lines, and the heads of state start being born mages. Then any noble of status enough to marry into the royal family starts getting some mage blood, and more and more of the most politically powerful people are mages. I don't think Tevinter 2.0 will happen instantly, but absent any controls I think it would happen. * That does seem to happen a lot, doesn't it? I think the thing where Southern Noble houses turn out to be founded by cadet members of Tevinter families a la the Trevelyans must be pretty common. Really? I always seem to hear the opposite. Usually by others who think letting the mages out of the Circle system will only end in disaster. As if the only result of ending the Circle system is corruption and madness on the people of thedas, even if some mages are good intentioned. Tbh even though I considered these scenarios myself I think they will be partially avoided purely because of how paranoid people are. Nations could very well adopt the Chantry's "No mage is allowed noble titles or land" if they are so insecure (which they likely are) about mages usurping the upper class. God knows they do this for races and mixed-raced children who don't appear human. As for every other "blood mage, abusive mage, politically savy mage, etc." threat? Well there's not much to say about it. It will happen. Just like it happened in the Circles. I just don't think it will be as prolific of a problem as many seem to think. Or at the very least, it won't be enough of a problem to reinstate the former Circle system again. The mages will be policed one way or another. Be it by Templar Order or adaptive national forces. Only a foolish nation would let them go about without safeguards. In fact I suspect certain mages to start forming criminal societies and the like (and its implied they already do in the Circles). But I also see mages genuinely wanting to aid or fight against magical corruption, and mage groups specifically dedicated to ensuring that apostates never gain undue political footholds. But I don't see why these endless 'what-if-the-bad-mages-do-X' hypotheticals--or even the inevitable abuses---are good enough reason to deny all mages several rights (including the right to pursue a normal life) simply because they are born a mage. *Actually while I would not say it happens a lot, its not unheard of. For nobles who are not afraid of mage child ruining their reputation, certain mages have been able to use their position from within the Circle to increase the prestige of both themselves and of their families. Others are simply born to nobles and gain unprecedented privileges in comparison to other mages. Including the opportunity to not be sent to the Circle (with varrying degrees of success, Connor and Lienne de Monstimmard are prime modern examples). While we don't know exactly how "mage potential" works on a genetic level--or if its even just operates on a genetic level--it is pretty telling that no matter the Chantry's attempts to curtail mages from reproducing, mages still maintain a steady population. By this point its safe to say that most noble families have mage potential in their family somewhere. But then, the same could be said of commoner families. Every time I try to make Pro-Templar arguments I find myself arguing with at least two people at once. (Oh, speaking of which, I missed one from Catilina a while back.) As for the actual content of your post, like I said, there's going to have to be some kind of controls to prevent Tevinter 2.0. I'm not sure they have to be as stringent as the Circle, but they have to be present. If it was just Tevinter 2.0 I was worried about, I'd probably be more inclined to argue for the controls you suggest. But the threat a mage might willingly pose isn't the real reason I support the Circles; that would be the fact that mages can go abomination without wanting to, and that it's not impossible for an entire city to be destroyed if they do. But it's remiss not to at least consider the threat of Tevinter 2.0 as a factor.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 20, 2017 10:50:25 GMT
Time magic should never have been a plotline in Thedas. It doesn't belong in the setting and made zero sense. I'm pretty sure the majority of people only defend it because it is the mage path and means you get to hook up with Dorian sooner. I think Dorian is awesome enough without making him into the Thedas Dr Who. If they were going to use it, then have a better explanation for it using Thedas magical lore. Also explain what happened to the sonic screwdriver (I mean amulet) after we return. Have a scene with Dorian actually destroying it so you know it can never again be used. It's at least implied that the amulet only worked as well as it did because of the Breach and its destabilizing effect on reality, since Alexius can't travel back to before it opened and once it's closed all Alexius's research can be used for is reducing cooldown times. So its not like they completely forgot to explain how it happened or tie up the loose end. Yeah, even with the explanation I provided I think this would have made more sense.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 20, 2017 11:40:04 GMT
Really? I always seem to hear the opposite. Usually by others who think letting the mages out of the Circle system will only end in disaster. As if the only result of ending the Circle system is corruption and madness on the people of thedas, even if some mages are good intentioned.
Tbh even though I considered these scenarios myself I think they will be partially avoided purely because of how paranoid people are. Nations could very well adopt the Chantry's "No mage is allowed noble titles or land" if they are so insecure (which they likely are) about mages usurping the upper class. God knows they do this for races and mixed-raced children who don't appear human. As for every other "blood mage, abusive mage, politically savy mage, etc." threat?
Well there's not much to say about it. It will happen. Just like it happened in the Circles. I just don't think it will be as prolific of a problem as many seem to think. Or at the very least, it won't be enough of a problem to reinstate the former Circle system again. The mages will be policed one way or another. Be it by Templar Order or adaptive national forces. Only a foolish nation would let them go about without safeguards. In fact I suspect certain mages to start forming criminal societies and the like (and its implied they already do in the Circles). But I also see mages genuinely wanting to aid or fight against magical corruption, and mage groups specifically dedicated to ensuring that apostates never gain undue political footholds.
But I don't see why these endless 'what-if-the-bad-mages-do-X' hypotheticals--or even the inevitable abuses---are good enough reason to deny all mages several rights (including the right to pursue a normal life) simply because they are born a mage.
*Actually while I would not say it happens a lot, its not unheard of. For nobles who are not afraid of mage child ruining their reputation, certain mages have been able to use their position from within the Circle to increase the prestige of both themselves and of their families. Others are simply born to nobles and gain unprecedented privileges in comparison to other mages. Including the opportunity to not be sent to the Circle (with varrying degrees of success, Connor and Lienne de Monstimmard are prime modern examples). While we don't know exactly how "mage potential" works on a genetic level--or if its even just operates on a genetic level--it is pretty telling that no matter the Chantry's attempts to curtail mages from reproducing, mages still maintain a steady population. By this point its safe to say that most noble families have mage potential in their family somewhere. But then, the same could be said of commoner families. Every time I try to make Pro-Templar arguments I find myself arguing with at least two people at once. (Oh, speaking of which, I missed one from Catilina a while back.) As for the actual content of your post, like I said, there's going to have to be some kind of controls to prevent Tevinter 2.0. I'm not sure they have to be as stringent as the Circle, but they have to be present. If it was just Tevinter 2.0 I was worried about, I'd probably be more inclined to argue for the controls you suggest. But the threat a mage might willingly pose isn't the real reason I support the Circles; that would be the fact that mages can go abomination without wanting to, and that it's not impossible for an entire city to be destroyed if they do. But it's remiss not to at least consider the threat of Tevinter 2.0 as a factor. And a few one. But I also think, probably this is more popular opinion, than unpopular. Most of the people consider the Circles not the best solution. I just different from this opinion, that the Circle-system int simply not good solution, rather not at all a solution, and even dangerous: more harm than benefit. I've said so many times, that this is nonsense, only a few Mages become abomination accidentally, and it's mostly happening because of the Circle system and persecution. The Templars are the cause of danger, not protectors, in this case. They can be important, if the mages will be free.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 20, 2017 12:11:20 GMT
Every time I try to make Pro-Templar arguments I find myself arguing with at least two people at once. (Oh, speaking of which, I missed one from Catilina a while back.) As for the actual content of your post, like I said, there's going to have to be some kind of controls to prevent Tevinter 2.0. I'm not sure they have to be as stringent as the Circle, but they have to be present. If it was just Tevinter 2.0 I was worried about, I'd probably be more inclined to argue for the controls you suggest. But the threat a mage might willingly pose isn't the real reason I support the Circles; that would be the fact that mages can go abomination without wanting to, and that it's not impossible for an entire city to be destroyed if they do. But it's remiss not to at least consider the threat of Tevinter 2.0 as a factor. And a few one. But I also think, probably this is more popular opinion, than unpopular. Most of the people consider the Circles not the best solution. I just different from this opinion, that the Circle-system int simply not good solution, rather not at all a solution, and even dangerous: more harm than benefit. I've said so many times, that this is nonsense, only a few Mages become abomination accidentally, and it's mostly happening because of the Circle system and persecution.The Templars are the cause of danger, not protectors, in this case. They can be important, if the mages will be free. I've never debated that it's rare. But I'd argue that if you can gain some degree of control over rare events that kill a whole bunch of people, you should at least try. As for your argument that the Circles are the danger, a lot of the people who become abominations accidentally because of the templars probably would have done it eventually anyway. If Amelia Stannard's parents kept her out of the Circle because they were afraid she wouldn't survive, and she goes abomination the second the templars show up, there's every chance she couldn't have handled daily life for her entire natural existence anyway. It's not like there's nothing for her to be afraid of in the outside world. By the same token Connor might have reacted the exact same way to his father being poisoned even if his arrangement had been entirely legal, and hadn't required Jowan. (Assuming Loghain had found some other way to pull it off of course.) Connor's case might have been prevented by taking him away from Redcliffe and not letting him return until he'd gotten his powers under control, which I recall you suggesting in previous debates, but I don't remember you ever explaining how the system could have been altered to save Amelia.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 20, 2017 12:26:41 GMT
And a few one. But I also think, probably this is more popular opinion, than unpopular. Most of the people consider the Circles not the best solution. I just different from this opinion, that the Circle-system int simply not good solution, rather not at all a solution, and even dangerous: more harm than benefit. I've said so many times, that this is nonsense, only a few Mages become abomination accidentally, and it's mostly happening because of the Circle system and persecution.The Templars are the cause of danger, not protectors, in this case. They can be important, if the mages will be free. I've never debated that it's rare. But I'd argue that if you can gain some degree of control over rare events that kill a whole bunch of people, you should at least try. As for your argument that the Circles are the danger, a lot of the people who become abominations accidentally because of the templars probably would have done it eventually anyway. If Amelia Stannard's parents kept her out of the Circle because they were afraid she wouldn't survive, and she goes abomination the second the templars show up, there's every chance she couldn't have handled daily life for her entire natural existence anyway. It's not like there's nothing for her to be afraid of in the outside world. By the same token Connor might have reacted the exact same way to his father being poisoned even if his arrangement had been entirely legal, and hadn't required Jowan. (Assuming Loghain had found some other way to pull it off of course.) Connor's case might have been prevented by taking him away from Redcliffe and not letting him return until he'd gotten his powers under control, which I recall you suggesting in previous debates, but I don't remember you ever explaining how the system could have been altered to save Amelia. Yes, her parents were afraid, that she wouldn't survive the Circle. Not the education... The Circle was cruel, a school isn't (at least not as a prison, where the prison guards can do whatever they want, without any consequences. What a terrible parents would be able to send their children such a terrible place? (Anders' father was such an idiot... thanks to the Chanty.)
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 20, 2017 12:41:12 GMT
I've never debated that it's rare. But I'd argue that if you can gain some degree of control over rare events that kill a whole bunch of people, you should at least try. As for your argument that the Circles are the danger, a lot of the people who become abominations accidentally because of the templars probably would have done it eventually anyway. If Amelia Stannard's parents kept her out of the Circle because they were afraid she wouldn't survive, and she goes abomination the second the templars show up, there's every chance she couldn't have handled daily life for her entire natural existence anyway. It's not like there's nothing for her to be afraid of in the outside world. By the same token Connor might have reacted the exact same way to his father being poisoned even if his arrangement had been entirely legal, and hadn't required Jowan. (Assuming Loghain had found some other way to pull it off of course.) Connor's case might have been prevented by taking him away from Redcliffe and not letting him return until he'd gotten his powers under control, which I recall you suggesting in previous debates, but I don't remember you ever explaining how the system could have been altered to save Amelia. Yes, her parents were afraid, that she wouldn't survive the Circle. Not the education... The Circle was cruel, a school isn't (at least not as a prison, where the prison guards can do whatever they want, without any consequences. What a terrible parents would be able to send their children such a terrible place? (Anders' father was such an idiot... thanks to the Chanty.) It's not just the Templar abuses they feared. Meredith explicitly states that Amelia wouldn't have passed the tests the Circle imposes. Those tests are imposed for a reason. Even in the Circle you propose, something like them would have been necessary, and they couldn't have allowed Amelia to leave until she passed them. If you're curious, the relevant bit starts at 3:50 in this video.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 20, 2017 12:42:29 GMT
Yes, her parents were afraid, that she wouldn't survive the Circle. Not the education... The Circle was cruel, a school isn't (at least not as a prison, where the prison guards can do whatever they want, without any consequences. What a terrible parents would be able to send their children such a terrible place? (Anders' father was such an idiot... thanks to the Chanty.) It's not just the Templar abuses they feared. Meredith explicitly states that Amelia wouldn't have passed the tests the Circle imposes. Those tests are imposed for a reason. Even in the Circle you propose, something like them would have been necessary, and they couldn't have allowed Amelia to leave until she passed them. If you're curious, the relevant bit starts at 3:50 in this video.
I know that. These tests are terrible and unnecessary. But with a good education, more mage would be able to perform less inhumane tests. On one hand, her parents were overly concerned. On the other hand, their concerns were well-founded.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 20, 2017 12:45:58 GMT
It's not just the Templar abuses they feared. Meredith explicitly states that Amelia wouldn't have passed the tests the Circle imposes. Those tests are imposed for a reason. Even in the Circle you propose, something like them would have been necessary, and they couldn't have allowed Amelia to leave until she passed them. If you're curious, the relevant bit starts at 3:50 in this video. I know that. This tests are terrible and unnecessary. I agree that they are terrible. I don't agree that they are unnecessary. The Circle needs to know that its mages are at least resistant to possession. If the mages are to be released into society after graduation, that only makes it more important. Unless you have some less terrible way to test for that?
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Post by Catilina on Apr 20, 2017 12:50:02 GMT
I know that. This tests are terrible and unnecessary. I agree that they are terrible. I don't agree that they are unnecessary. The Circle needs to know that its mages are at least resistant to possession. If the mages were to be released into society after graduation, that only makes it more important. Unless you have some less terrible way to test for that? Sorry, I completed my post. "But with a good education, more mage would be able to perform less inhumane tests. On one hand, her parents were overly concerned. On the other hand, their concerns were well-founded." So: her parents were overly concerned, but they were right. The Circle doesn't know from this tests, that the Mage able to resist the possession or not. Anders? Wynne? Uldred? Quentin? Grece? Evelina? Huon? – these all experienced mages, who performed the Harrowing.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 20, 2017 12:54:43 GMT
I agree that they are terrible. I don't agree that they are unnecessary. The Circle needs to know that its mages are at least resistant to possession. If the mages were to be released into society after graduation, that only makes it more important. Unless you have some less terrible way to test for that? Sorry, I completed my post. "But with a good education, more mage would be able to perform less inhumane tests. On one hand, her parents were overly concerned. On the other hand, their concerns were well-founded." So: her parents were overly concerned, but they were right. The Circle doesn't know from this tests, that the Mage able to resist the possession or not. Anders? Wynne? Uldred? Quentin? Yeah, that's happened to me sometimes too. But the stuff you added doesn't seem to answer my question. There need to be tests to at least weed out the mages who are dangerously easy for demons to work on. Obviously passing doesn't make you immune, but the ones who fail are arguably too dangerous to have in the Circles, and certainly too dangerous to have in cities populated mostly by muggles. If those tests don't look like the Harrowing, what do they look like? I'd be willing to use more humane tests, if you can only explain how they can be made humane without making them too easy. (Also, I don't think Quentin was possessed. I'd always assumed he was an example of a mage choosing to do evil, which is something we both agree can be handled in ways other than the Circle.)
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Post by Catilina on Apr 20, 2017 13:08:38 GMT
Sorry, I completed my post. "But with a good education, more mage would be able to perform less inhumane tests. On one hand, her parents were overly concerned. On the other hand, their concerns were well-founded." So: her parents were overly concerned, but they were right. The Circle doesn't know from this tests, that the Mage able to resist the possession or not. Anders? Wynne? Uldred? Quentin? Yeah, that's happened to me sometimes too. But the stuff you added doesn't seem to answer my question. There need to be tests to at least weed out the mages who are dangerously easy for demons to work on. If those tests don't look like the Harrowing, what do they look like? I'd be willing to use more humane tests, if you can only explain how they can be made humane without making them too easy. (Also, I don't think Quentin was possessed. I'd always assumed he was an example of a mage choosing to do evil, which is something we both agree can be handled in ways other than the Circle.) You're right, Quentin isn't abomination, but also crazed... And, there are Evelina and Huon... Look at: the mages need to be stable mindstate, and the forced Harrowing unnecessarily can destroy that. Harrowing is equally as risky as certainty. Every Mages and Templars are damaged in the Circle, who more, who less, but without exeption.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 20, 2017 13:14:27 GMT
Yeah, that's happened to me sometimes too. But the stuff you added doesn't seem to answer my question. There need to be tests to at least weed out the mages who are dangerously easy for demons to work on. If those tests don't look like the Harrowing, what do they look like? I'd be willing to use more humane tests, if you can only explain how they can be made humane without making them too easy. (Also, I don't think Quentin was possessed. I'd always assumed he was an example of a mage choosing to do evil, which is something we both agree can be handled in ways other than the Circle.) You're right, Quentin isn't abomination, but also crazed... And, there are Evelina and Huon... Look at: the mages need to be stable mindstate, and the forced Harrowing unnecessarily can destroy that. Harrowing is equally as risky as certainty. Every Mages and Templars are damaged in the Circle, who more, who less, but without exeption. That doesn't answer the question, though. What else is there that can be done to test whether or not a mage can handle demons? (Or at least weed out the ones who absolutely can't, and are thus unacceptable risks?) I agree that the Harrowing shouldn't be done unnecessarily. How do we make it unnecessary, so that we don't have to take the risk of damaging the mages?
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Post by Catilina on Apr 20, 2017 13:38:41 GMT
You're right, Quentin isn't abomination, but also crazed... And, there are Evelina and Huon... Look at: the mages need to be stable mindstate, and the forced Harrowing unnecessarily can destroy that. Harrowing is equally as risky as certainty. Every Mages and Templars are damaged in the Circle, who more, who less, but without exeption. That doesn't answer the question, though. What else is there that can be done to test whether or not a mage can handle demons? I agree that the Harrowing shouldn't be done unnecessarily. How do we make it unnecessary, so that we don't have to take the risk of damaging the mages? Good training is enough, but in a less stressful environment, a Harrowing with help, probably can work. The bigest problem is the fact, that the Circle working as a prison, the Mage not sure about, that s/he have a chance to live freely after a succeed Harrowing, but that's clear, that if s/he failed, she became Tranquil, or die.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 20, 2017 13:41:36 GMT
That doesn't answer the question, though. What else is there that can be done to test whether or not a mage can handle demons? I agree that the Harrowing shouldn't be done unnecessarily. How do we make it unnecessary, so that we don't have to take the risk of damaging the mages? Good training is enough, but in a less stressful environment, a Harrowing with help, probably can work. The bigest problem is the fact, that the Circle working as a prison, the Mage not sure about, that s/he have a chance to live freely after a succeed Harrowing, but that's clear, that if s/he failed, she became Tranquil, or die. How sure are we that that completely solves the problem, though? Some mages really do seem to be naturally weak, even with training. I'm not sure making things gentler will solve that problem, and it creates more.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 20, 2017 13:47:08 GMT
Good training is enough, but in a less stressful environment, a Harrowing with help, probably can work. The bigest problem is the fact, that the Circle working as a prison, the Mage not sure about, that s/he have a chance to live freely after a succeed Harrowing, but that's clear, that if s/he failed, she became Tranquil, or die. How sure are we that that completely solves the problem, though? Some mages really do seem to be naturally weak, even with training. I'm not sure making things gentler will solve that problem, and it creates more. No. If the Mage know his weakness, but his/her mind is clear, he capable of avoiding the dangerous situations. This not creates more problem, in fact much less problem. People with a healthy mind can solve their problems.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 20, 2017 13:48:54 GMT
How sure are we that that completely solves the problem, though? Some mages really do seem to be naturally weak, even with training. I'm not sure making things gentler will solve that problem, and it creates more. No. If the Mage know his weakness, but his/her mind is clear, he capable of avoiding the dangerous situations. This not creates more problem, in fact much less problem. People with a healthy mind can solve their problems. Some people just aren't born with healthy minds. And being a mage is a dangerous situation. Especially if you actually use magic. Double especially if you use blood magic.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 20, 2017 14:00:03 GMT
No. If the Mage know his weakness, but his/her mind is clear, he capable of avoiding the dangerous situations. This not creates more problem, in fact much less problem. People with a healthy mind can solve their problems. Some people just aren't born with healthy minds. And being a mage is a dangerous situation. Especially if you actually use magic. Double especially if you use blood magic. I said: the life is dangerous. I just don't understand, why need to spoil a healthy mind with unnecessary stress factors. Evelina, Huon, and Meredith's sister etc would be able to live a normal life without the Circle's threaten. The people in Kirkwall would be able to live a normal life without the Circle's threaten...
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 20, 2017 15:05:54 GMT
At least in medieval England, which I'd assumed this system was based on, that wouldn't have been considered strong at all. The crown was supposed to go to the eldest surviving son, and to daughters if there were no surviving sons. What happens if that's not an option takes more explaining than I'm willing to do, but the wife isn't involved except as the mother of the heirs. I'd assumed the only reason she gets away with it at all is because Alistair's claim is at least as sketchy due to the fact that he's a bastard, and thus doesn't legally count as the son of the king for this purpose. (Which I suppose could make Anora's claim by far the strongest in the game, but that means way less than you seem to think.) I suppose Alistair's claim much more Aemon Arl's claim. Aemon has power, but I think, he has enemies as well, or he think, he doesn't have enough supporters. So: he thinks more secure, if he uses Marric's bloodline for receive more supporters. I think, Anora isn't a queen, she was a queen consort. In this times Ferelden has interregnum, and Anora (and Loghain) is just the regent. Cousland, Eamon, Tegan and Alistair could be strong throne pretenders. Except that you have no way to prove that Alistair is son of Maric that makes his claim by far more weak than both Eamon and Anora,which in fact as queen consort was already a member of the crown.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 20, 2017 15:07:58 GMT
Whereas Loghain is a peasant turned war hero who married another peasant and beget Anora. except taht's not true because Logahin's wife was a noble not a pesant and ALsitair being identified as illegitimate son of Eamon may in fact damages the reputation of Eamon which was not damaged in the game because everyone believed that he wasn't son of Eamon.
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Post by oyabun on Apr 20, 2017 15:12:43 GMT
Anora's mother was a noble not a commoner,if she wasn't she would have never been able to marry Cailan. Loghain earned his status as noble because of his accomplishments with Maric in the first book,so in DAO he is considered a noble(in fact he is a Teyrn)he was a commoner in the first book not in DAO.The status of nobility can be earned(even an HoF elf is considered a noble in DAA in fact it is mandatory for them to become Arle)so i don't see why Anora claim's is weaker than Alistair given the fact that both her parents were nobles(Mother and Father,Loghain conceived her when he was already a Teyrn and her mother was a noble from birth) and she was already a Queen consort to a proved son of Maric,that's by far more strong than that of Alistair whom parentage can't be proved(there is no way to prove it wihtout Maric or Cailan) ,and he is is also a GW. The landsmeet is a popularity contest but it require the candidates to be nobles,they can't even prove that Alistair is a noble in the game since Eamon has rejected him as his own son and is saying that he is Maric son and his popularity among the nobles is pretty much near the value of 0 since nobody know him,the way I see it Eamon was a better candidate than him.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 20, 2017 15:12:45 GMT
I suppose Alistair's claim much more Aemon Arl's claim. Aemon has power, but I think, he has enemies as well, or he think, he doesn't have enough supporters. So: he thinks more secure, if he uses Marric's bloodline for receive more supporters. I think, Anora isn't a queen, she was a queen consort. In this times Ferelden has interregnum, and Anora (and Loghain) is just the regent. Cousland, Eamon, Tegan and Alistair could be strong throne pretenders. Except that you have no way to prove that Alistair is son of Maric that makes his calim by far more weak tahn both Eamon and Anora,which in fact as queen consort was already a memeber of the crown. Eamon arl have proof, I suppose, and if not, then Alistair could be his bastard too. The people knew, that Alistair grew up in his house. Anyway, I think, even Cousland stronger throne pretender, than Anora.
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