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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2017 15:28:45 GMT
May I suggest "modular" rather than "linear"? For me, the attraction of ME2/3 story line is that it is build of blocks, each with its own outcome, so you can rebuild the story to your liking every time you play. "linear" for me is that story that always unfolds exactly the same way, no matter how many times you play the game. If you prefer that terminology, go with it. I've never said "completely linear story" - I said "flexible within a more linear story." IMO, that means there should still a progression of the main story line that is somewhat fixed and gated accordingly. Even in ME2 and ME3 it wasn't totally linear, although extremist like to claim it was. There was gating, but you could scramble some of the missions to flop over different main missions. ME2 would have felt more open-worldy if they had just allowed players to go back to planets they had already visited to scour for additional loot or farm enemies for extra XP or to land on some other "scanning" planets just to find loot and farm enemies (because that's basically the purpose of most of the open world in TW3). Still, they should be careful not to make the games so inordinately long that the player can get bogged down in doing all those little "farming" activities. No doubt, some people enjoy that sort of thing... but it does detract from the main story. I prefer shorter games with more choice points, a beginning and an ending, to longer games with lateral content distribution and less of an opportunity for a story to be memorable and personal.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 25, 2017 15:29:58 GMT
What's the point of insisting that the developer integrate a side quest into the story if merely doing stuff in a different order totally negates that side quests "story" - which is what happens in TW3... reducing it to "quest open" and "quest complete" signs coming up within a single second of each other? It's worse than a "fetch" quest. The shear volume of reading in TW3 is also ridiculous. If I want to read a book, I will read it from the front to the back... I don't rip out all the pages and give them a shuffle and read the little bits and pieces and expect to make sense of the story. Things like deeper character development and story tension suffer. Let CDPR do the open-world RPGs then... I won't buy them. Bioware should go back to what they did well in the Trilogy... and that was deeper personality development of the main character that was somewhat flexible within a more linear story. May I suggest "modular" rather than "linear"? For me, the attraction of ME2/3 story line is that it is build of blocks, each with its own outcome, so you can rebuild the story to your liking every time you play. "linear" for me is that story that always unfolds exactly the same way, no matter how many times you play the game. That works as long as long as the order in which you put each "block" in is actually recognized. Like, in Alpha Protocol, Marburg and SIE both comment on your dealings with the other based on who you meet first. Or talking to Albatross in Taipei can change slightly based on whether you met G22 in Moscow or not. Or befriending Steven Heck gives you an opportunity to make the fight a bit easier.
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Post by simtam on Apr 25, 2017 16:26:57 GMT
There's a huge gap between "I liked TW2 more, where each bandit camp and monster nest were unique (well, almost), and same goes for ME and DA series" and "oh no, youtube playthroughs often forego side quests or even, completionist god forbid, point of interests, in pursuit of the main goal of the game". The former is a sentiment shared by quite a lot of players; the latter happens to any popular game and tells more about youtubers than the game itself. It's up to you which of your points you would like to reinforce.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Apr 25, 2017 16:51:32 GMT
I think that DA:I and MEA are both attempts to break out of that linearity in terms of gameplay though. They are trying to provide more of a sandbox for players, but it does not work for a variety of reasons, namely the lack of RP possibilities in filling the worlds with fetch quests and mobs. Or were you referring to the linearity of the story? If so then yes I agree with you. Well, I meant both things. I think the linearity of the story is probably required, at least on some level, but I would prefer there be more to the game than that, which would help disguise that linearity by giving the player other things to do. One of the reasons I think BG was BioWare's best game is that it didn't tell you which quests were related to the story. It didn't even explicitly tell you what the story was. Also, there's a reason I turn off the quest markers in these games. If all the player is doing is following a pointer in his HUD to the next quest event, no wonder he's not having fun. KotOR actually handled the story aspect really well. I'd just like to see that story spread out over a bigger game.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Apr 25, 2017 16:57:26 GMT
Sorry, but eh? What are you smoking bud. I read some stuff on these forums but this is right up there for head scratching. Good shout on Ultima and Minecraft but bud... come on. Right out of the gate in FF7 I found conversations with only one dialogue option (so basically non-interactive content). There was no character-building or roleplaying at all. FF7 was basically a visual novel. Visual novels are not RPGs. ME2 and ME3 did basically the same thing, but dressed up in a prettier package.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Apr 25, 2017 16:59:02 GMT
Sorry, but eh? What are you smoking bud. I read some stuff on these forums but this is right up there for head scratching. Good shout on Ultima and Minecraft but bud... come on. Right out of the gate in FF7 I found conversations with only one dialogue option (so basically non-interactive content). There was no character-building or roleplaying at all. FF7 was basically a visual novel. Visual novels are not RPGs. ME2 and ME3 did basically the same thing, but dressed up in a prettier package. The FF series are RPGs. They were RPGs before Bioware even existed.
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Post by Sparkz on Apr 25, 2017 17:06:11 GMT
I read this article this morning and agree 100%. It's not that I hate DA:I or ME:A, because I don't, I just really really want to play a true Bioware game, not some EA slog with the Bioware name slapped on it. In ME:A, I honestly feel like a robot, constantly scanning my journal for pointless tasks to do that have nothing to go with the story whatsoever. In the ME Trilogy, I don't recall ever having to open my journal, quests appeared and were completed organically. If they need to go back to a linear corridor shooter style of play in order to tell a good story, then do it. Going open world has done nothing but diminish the quality of the story IMO. I would argue that focusing on story has done nothing but diminish the quality and range of roleplaying opportunities available to the player. BioWare used to make these great big games with 80+ hours of content. Then they started making console games (KotOR), and voicing the protagonist (ME), and the games got smaller. They told much more focused stories, yes, but they were lesser roleplaying experiences. DAO was the last game in BioWare's old style, and because it launched the Dragon Age franchise there are always going to be these old-school RPG expectations associated with the series. But old-school RPG design is simply incompatible with these tightly-woven narratives. Forced to choose, I'll side with the RPG aspect every time. I'd be perfectly happy to see BioWare never attempt another short linear narrative ever again. I agree that DAO was BioWare's last true quasi-RPG, but I have given up hope on the old BG/BGII and DAO style RPG adventures from BioWare. Due to EA's greed, the directive has been given to BioWare to appeal to as large a player base as possible to maximize profits. I hope I am wrong, but I don't believe we will never see a true RPG from BioWare again because there are just too few old-school RPGers. What I can hope for however is a coherent, plot-driven narrative and story that totally sucks me in in a way that only BioWare has been able to do in the past. ME:A, and to a lesser extent DA:I, failed to do that, and I blame the switch to open-world. Or it could just be crappy writing but that would break my heart coming from this studio.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 25, 2017 17:06:15 GMT
They're JRPGs if I recall correctly. Kinda a different flavor of the RPG genre.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2017 17:06:55 GMT
There's a huge gap between "I liked TW2 more, where each bandit camp and monster nest were unique (well, almost), and same goes for ME and DA series" and "oh no, youtube playthroughs often forego side quests or even, completionist god forbid, point of interests, in pursuit of the main goal of the game". The former is a sentiment shared by quite a lot of players; the latter happens to any popular game and tells more about youtubers than the game itself. It's up to you which of your points you would like to reinforce. I am talking about YouTubers who have completed many, many playthroughs of some very long RPG games and who aborted their playthrough of TW3. ou would be wise to do some checking yourself before spouting off (i.e. follow your own damned advice). We are absolutely done here. Bye.
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Post by simtam on Apr 25, 2017 17:07:16 GMT
If someone grew up on Ultima series, Betrayal at Krondor, Darklands... I can see why FF7 may seemed quite off the frontier of RPG movement (but also Diablo, and even Baldur's Gate or Morrowind, due to scant of NPC schedules - and people call these games RPGs nonetheless).
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Post by simtam on Apr 25, 2017 17:09:25 GMT
there are a number of aborted playthroughs of TW3 evident on YouTube and a number of others that basically just started ignoring doing side quests to push the playthrough to some sort of completion. Yep.
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Post by chawktrick on Apr 25, 2017 17:13:42 GMT
Why would technology advancements impact our perceptions of TW3? Will that somehow make the game less impressive? It's a great game for its era, much like Ocarina of Time and Diablo II were for their eras. Regardless, TW3 (like it or not) has become a popular measuring stick for current open world RPGs and video gaming in general, and that will likely continue for several years. I don't think its success needs another 10 years to be justified. We weren't talking about simply being "successful" or even "impressive" We're talking "best of all time" Semantics. You didn't answer the question, but I'll rephrase. Why would technology advancements impact whether TW3 is one of the best RPG's of all time?
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Apr 25, 2017 17:13:49 GMT
They're JRPGs if I recall correctly. Kinda a different flavor of the RPG genre. Yes, you are correct. JRPGs are more or less you reading a beautifully crafted story with gorgeous graphics. It's more about the theme and story being told then anything else. While Western RPGs are more about choice and freedom to do and create what you want(aka Skyrim). There are some hybrids, but generally those are the definitions.
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Post by chawktrick on Apr 25, 2017 17:20:20 GMT
Bite me? Are you 12? This is a message board. If you don't like people 'critiquing your critique,' perhaps you should step back and get some tougher skin. I happen to disagree with your opinions. Deal with it and stop acting like you're being persecuted. Welcome to the internet. My implication was that you could do better than merely critiquing my critique IF indeed you wanted to help Bioware make the game better... but you don't. I have two people going at me here merely defending TW3 on a Bioware forum because I dared to launch some criticisms against that so-called perfect game. The posts are adding nothing to the purpose of helping Bioware build a better game even though they purport to criticize me on that front as well. Am I upset... no... I'm not swearing at you, am I; and I can assure you that I am many, many decades older than 12... so "bite me." (and if that little phrase coming from me upsets you... welcome to the internet). Oh please, where did I 'go after you?' If you think this... ...is going after you, then you don't handle difference of opinion very well. I don't really care if you dislike TW3, but don't act surprised or like you're being harassed simply because people don't think like you do. You may be decades older than a 12-year-old, but you certainly don't act like it.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 25, 2017 17:23:35 GMT
This is like one of those scientific impossibilities. You can't decide what RPG was the best of all time until the end of time. Proving a negative...
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 25, 2017 17:25:04 GMT
They're JRPGs if I recall correctly. Kinda a different flavor of the RPG genre. Yes, you are correct. JRPGs are more or less you reading a beautifully crafted story with gorgeous graphics. It's more about the theme and story being told then anything else. While Western RPGs are more about choice and freedom to do and create what you want(aka Skyrim). There are some hybrids, but generally those are the definitions. Yep. I don't really like JPRGs, but they are considered RPGs nonetheless.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 25, 2017 17:39:08 GMT
We weren't talking about simply being "successful" or even "impressive" We're talking "best of all time" Semantics. You didn't answer the question, but I'll rephrase. Why would technology advancements impact whether TW3 is one of the best RPG's of all time? Not semantics. "one of the best RPGs of all time" was the actual quote I was responding to. And calling a game less than two years old one of the best games ever is pretty short-sited. Because as games get more sophisticated, more becomes possible in an RPG. Take Wasteland, for example. One reason why it was so groundbreaking is because it was one of the first RPGs to utilize a persistent world. Stuff you did actually stuck once you left the screen.Amazing! People actually remembered you gunning down that kid and his dog in the street! Choices with actual consequences! Unheard-of! Now imagine in 20 years or so what might be possible in RPGs. Maybe Bioware's dialogue wheel will gain more spokes. We may pass further through the uncanny valley. Non humanoid companions may become feasible. More voices. Better emotional range. Better customization options. More nuanced choices. All this is based on tech (well, writing too) This is why the old classics, the ones that really stay with us, have fans going "imagine what could be done with this game with modern technology" Which is why we now have a Wasteland 2 and soon a Wasteland 3
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Apr 25, 2017 19:47:25 GMT
They're JRPGs if I recall correctly. Kinda a different flavor of the RPG genre. I never understood how JRPGs qualified as RPGs. They're like RPGs designed by someone who'd never played a tabletop RPG.
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 25, 2017 19:47:35 GMT
Not semantics. "one of the best RPGs of all time" was the actual quote I was responding to. And calling a game less than two years old one of the best games ever is pretty short-sited. Because as games get more sophisticated, more becomes possible in an RPG. Meh, aside from graphical fidelity (which is more hardware driven) video games evolve pretty slowly. Most developers and publishers are far too frightened of moving away from the tried and true. From a systems and mechanics point of view RPG's today aren't all that different than one from 10 or even 20 years ago. Now imagine in 20 years or so what might be possible in RPGs. Maybe Bioware's dialogue wheel will gain more spokes. We may pass further through the uncanny valley. Non humanoid companions may become feasible. More voices. Better emotional range. Better customization options. More nuanced choices. All this is based on tech (well, writing too) This is why the old classics, the ones that really stay with us, have fans going "imagine what could be done with this game with modern technology" Which is why we now have a Wasteland 2 and soon a Wasteland 3 I think the biggest changes we are likely to see will again be hardware driven. Will people even be using anything we today would call a PC or a console or will we all be experiencing games as a VR simulation or having them beamed directly into chips in our brains or something completely outside our conceivable expectations? If 20 years from now game developers are still hard coding computer games as we understand them today I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the formats will not have changed much.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Apr 25, 2017 19:50:52 GMT
They're JRPGs if I recall correctly. Kinda a different flavor of the RPG genre. I never understood how JRPGs qualified as RPGs. They're like RPGs designed by someone who'd never played a tabletop RPG. I don't want to go into too much detail, but it has to do with their philosophy on life/society. Basically set roles and not going outside of those constraints, so freedom of choice isn't as highly rated as it is to western countries. There is more to it, but that is the general gist when they make JRPG.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2017 20:12:34 GMT
I never understood how JRPGs qualified as RPGs. They're like RPGs designed by someone who'd never played a tabletop RPG. I don't want to go into too much detail, but it has to do with their philosophy on life/society. Basically set roles and not going outside of those constraints, so freedom of choice isn't as highly rated as it is to western countries. There is more to it, but that is the general gist when they make JRPG. Interestingly enough, by engaging in a game like that, you take on a very specific role very separate from your own, live someone else's' destiny out, do their duty, take on their filial obligations, etc, while in a western game you can tailor to what you imagine you are in RL. I would not put it to philosophy, rather I would put it to the cost and complexity of production.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Apr 25, 2017 20:16:14 GMT
I don't want to go into too much detail, but it has to do with their philosophy on life/society. Basically set roles and not going outside of those constraints, so freedom of choice isn't as highly rated as it is to western countries. There is more to it, but that is the general gist when they make JRPG. Interestingly enough, by engaging in a game like that, you take on a very specific role very separate from your own, live someone else's' destiny out, do their duty, take on their filial obligations, etc, while in a western game you can tailor to what you imagine you are in RL. I would not put it to philosophy, rather I would put it to the cost and complexity of production. There were videos I watched on it from a design stand point, so philosophy is part of it. They sometimes spend more then Western developers on games, so cost and complexity aren't factors with it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2017 20:26:57 GMT
Interestingly enough, by engaging in a game like that, you take on a very specific role very separate from your own, live someone else's' destiny out, do their duty, take on their filial obligations, etc, while in a western game you can tailor to what you imagine you are in RL. I would not put it to philosophy, rather I would put it to the cost and complexity of production. There were videos I watched on it from a design stand point, so philosophy is part of it. They sometimes spend more then Western developers on games, so cost and complexity aren't factors with it. Fair enough. The only oriental game I played did cut out the dualistic choice for protagonist in later versions (and for western market) because they could not manage balanced amount of options for both. If the rest of them do attribute it to the mystery of the Oriental soul, I think there are layers... I would not mind reading up on it if I find it. It's fascinating.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 25, 2017 20:32:04 GMT
Not semantics. "one of the best RPGs of all time" was the actual quote I was responding to. And calling a game less than two years old one of the best games ever is pretty short-sited. Because as games get more sophisticated, more becomes possible in an RPG. Meh, aside from graphical fidelity (which is more hardware driven) video games evolve pretty slowly. Most developers and publishers are far too frightened of moving away from the tried and true. From a systems and mechanics point of view RPG's today aren't all that different than one from 10 or even 20 years ago. No wonder most of teh RPGs I play nowadays come from Kickstarters
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Apr 25, 2017 20:37:36 GMT
They're JRPGs if I recall correctly. Kinda a different flavor of the RPG genre. Yes, you are correct. JRPGs are more or less you reading a beautifully crafted story with gorgeous graphics. It's more about the theme and story being told then anything else. Exactly. Not RPGs. There's no roleplaying.
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