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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Apr 22, 2017 20:21:05 GMT
Codex entry: A Sheaf of Dubious Forum Posts Spymaster, I have begun to compile a list of all known or suspected double agents. I hope you will take action on the contents of these shocking documents. Many of those in question are in our very midst. Why, even you yourself are on it! - △ - While the DA wiki covers known double agents, there's a large cohort of characters that are suspected to have hidden motives, but are not yet confirmed. These theories are scattered all over the web. My goal is to catalog that... we'll call it "information"... in a central location, so we're better able to form a unified picture. Paranoid accusations suggestions for expanding this list are encouraged! The more ridiculous or flimsy the connection is, the better. Spoilers (and enough tinfoil to make Skyhold visible from space) ahead! Agents of Fen'Harel*gazes at elves with the racist eye of an Orlesian chevalier* Felassan. Fen'Harel's #1 fanboy. Probably wears Fen'Harel pajamas to bed. Knows a lot about Fen'Harel, ancient elves, and also, have we mentioned Fen'Harel? On a first name basis with Imshael. Mage. Word of Weekes says his vallaslin is probably Mythal's. Confirmed by Solas and Cole in Trespasser. That Trespasser Elf. "Found" the gaatlok in Halamshiral. "Found" the Qunari body in Halamshiral. Good at "finding" things. Magic ability unknown. No vallaslin. Confirmed by Solas, who casually threw her under the bus to make a point in his villain monologue. He really is a terrible employer. Cillian. Wears sweet-ass armor. Says cryptic things. Makes that familiar "I saw it in a dream" excuse. Knows an ancient elven fighting style For Some Reason. Mage. June vallaslin. Suspected at time of writing. "Sketch". Worked with Leliana. "I now believe you were placed according to the stirrings of an old empire and the seeding of our borders with hidden agents. Some formerly owned." Pursued by many, many, many different assassins. Mage. No vallaslin. Suspected at time of writing. Dalish. Excellently positioned to spy on the Ben-Hassrath. Goes by a nickname that's the elf equivalent of "Mr. Hugh Mann". Doesn't talk much, allowing Bull to fill in her backstory. "My keeper thought I should see the world a little." Not a mage, because that would make her an apostate! Dirthamen vallaslin. Mildly suspicious at time of writing. Elan Ve'mal. Inquisition apothecary. Previously worked for multiple unspecified nobles. Could just be well-connected. Wants Isthmus Goodson dead. Magic ability unknown. No vallaslin. Mildly suspicious at time of writing. Might be in Briala's network instead. Order of Fiery Promise. An apocalypse cult which is only slightly better at staying alive than the Empty Ones. Enjoy wearing seeker and templar regalia. "A band of men and women who decreed that not only was the end of the world nigh, it was necessary. Thedas must be cleansed with fire and reborn as a paradise. This they solemnly promised; they devoted themselves utterly to seeing this come about." Probably aren't actually working for Fen'Harel, but their fanclub sure would love him. Mildly suspicious. Ben-HassrathAnaan! Hissrad/Iron Bull. Trained as a Ben-Hassrath. Ben-Hassrath training, remember? Is Ben-Hassrath. Good at lying and killing things, which is ideal for Ben-Hassrath. Which is good, because the tamassrans made him a Ben-Hassrath. Confirmed. Yes, Bull, we know. Tallis. Wears the Qunari symbol on her armor. Wants a Qunari item. Has a Qunari name. Quotes Qunari proverbs. Confirmed, to everyone's great surprise, near the end of MotA. Truly, the Ben-Hassrath are masters of infiltration. Executors/Those Across the SeaPossibly had a hand in whatever event drove both the humans and the Qunari off the northern continent. Aware of Corypheus. Their current modus operandi is to watch in secret, but also leave chalk graffiti everywhere. Lord Trifles Minutiae. Constructs the diabolical, nigh insoluble obstacle course that is... the Quizquisition! There is absolutely no reason to suspect that he works for the Executors, save for his vague and mysterious ways, so alike to theirs. Poorly made wind noises. Pyramids of Par Vollen. The Executors are clearly the kind of secret organization that doesn't want to actually be secret. Doubtless the fiendish Towers of Hanoi are their calling card as well. Why not? Cult of Masked Andraste"It must be Andraste: it has the rayed crown, the outspread hands. But a bow is carved on her back, and her face is hidden. This is Masked Andraste, the huntress-aspect worshipped only in Serault, whose cult is neither entirely permitted nor entirely forbidden." Image unrelated. I think it's from the wiki page on elven statues. Elegant Abbess. Of the Abbey of the Bans. Sister to the Muttering Banker. Occasionally slips into the woods. "We will be shepherds, and Serault our lamb. We shall see her to sunlit pastures. We shall stone the wolves who threaten her." Confirmed at the rites of Masked Andraste. Ashkaari Koslun. Founder of the Qunari. What are they doing in this section? Said something about "fly straight, and never waver; bend, but never break; receive the gifts of the hunt with mindfulness." Wait, that wasn't Koslun. This is Koslun: "Struggle is an illusion. The tide rises, the tide falls, but the sea is changeless. There is nothing to struggle against. Victory is in the Qun." Chill stoner who talked about wisdom and being one with nature, only to somehow inspire the most militaristic theocracy on the continent. Where were we? Oh yeah: mildly suspicious. Cult of the Forgotten Ones. Elves who live in vaguely the same area and offer up blood sacrifices to the Forgotten Ones. Masked Andraste probably isn't a Forgotten One. If she is, Serault is not very good at forgetting. Mildly suspicious by dint of proximity. Not proximity to the shrine of Masked Andraste, mind you; their proximity to Serault. Everyone in that area is suspicious in some way. Haven cultists. Worship a version of Andraste that takes the form of a dragon. What do huntress-statues at the edge of the Tirashan have to do with dragons? Andraste, apparently. Mildly suspicious at time of writing. Friends of Red JennyNot to be confused with the Friends of Dread Fenny. Those lot can shove it right up their elven glory. Charade Amell. Much nicer than her dad. Operates in Tantervale. Confirmed by a war table mission. Sera. Makes terrible cookies. Can throw bees, but should drink potions, because those stack Killer's Alchemy. Has been to Tevinter. Confirmed by Sera. The Inquisitor. Very conspicuous. Can scale tall buildings with a single grappling hook arm. Is ready to relax for a change. "The wolf did not believe them, that they would loose him, until they laid Týr's hand into his mouth as a pledge. But when the Æsir would not loose him, then he bit off the hand at the place now called 'the wolf's joint;' and Týr is one-handed, and is not called a reconciler of men." - Prose Edda: Gylfaginning; on Týr's daring. Conditional on friendship with Sera. Mediums and AbominationsWhat do you mean, they're "not technically double agents"? There's two of them in one body! Anders. Would have been better off in any place other than Kirkwall, and with any spirit other than Justice. Goes predictably bonkers. Confirmed by Anders in DA2. Evangealine. Is not a mage. Once and for all: spirits can possess templars (Wilmod). Spirits can possess viscounts (Khedra). Spirits can even possess rocks (Profane). They prefer to possess powerful things, so mages are usually more appealing. But mages don't have a monopoly on possession. Confirmed in Asunder. Hakkon. The breath of winter; the cold wind of war. While most spirits are lucky not to end up in a tree or corpse, this guy casually lands a dragon. Show-off. Honorable mention to all the other Avvar gods, but they didn't show up to the party. Confirmed to be in need of a good rebirthing by Svarah Sun-Hair. Flemeth/Witch of the Wilds/Asha'bellanar/Old Woman Who Talks Too Much. Has just awful luck with men, which means she's probably playing a Bioware game. Creates alt accounts for fun. Is also Mythal, because why not? Provided the Old God Baby ritual, which means she's an OGB herself, knows suspiciously much about the Blight, or both. Confirmed by herself and the Well of Sorrows. Wynne. Has a spirit of faith. Occasionally manifests as over-optimism that Circles will get better on their own. Could at times be mistaken for Sloth. Confirmed by Wynne in Origins and Asunder. After Asunder, Faith now lives in Evangealine. Morrigan. Mythal's "godhood", whatever that means, has been passed to Morrigan. "Her mother's paths / Shall the maiden tread / When the gods to death have gone." - Poetic Edda: The Ballad of Vafþrúðnir; Vafþrúðnir's response to Odin's distress at the wolf devouring the sun. Ambiguous; it's unclear how much of Mythal is with Solas and how much is with Morrigan. Whoever has Mythal's login now, they're talking to elves in Orlais. Sebastian Vael. Last time we saw him, he was vowing to visit vengeance on Anders. I'm sure everything is just fine. If Sebastian happens to track him down and kill him, surely Justice would return peacefully to the Fade. What would a possibly Blight-mad spirit of justice want with the ruler of a city-state, anyway? He's not a mage, so of course he has no power that might draw a spirit's attention. With the minor exception of commanding an army. Mildly suspicious at time of writing. People Who Aren't Grey WardensThe Silverite Wings of Valor! They mean nooooothing. Blackwall. Is totally a warden, you guys. Likes looking at warden artifacts so he can cram for the test contemplate honor and duty. Confirmed to be Thom Rainier by himself. Revered Defenders"Little stones" affiliated with the titans, the Stone, or blue lyrium's song. May or may not also be related to the Void. Valta. Hears the lyrium song. Carves a path through Sha-Brytol. Hates Sha-Brytol. Lets the Inquisitor fight the titan's guardian. Doesn't have food or water. Becomes a titan's... researcher? Confirmed by Valta and her spooky lyrium magic. Leliana. Conditionally, is resurrected by the lyrium song and becomes a fake Leliana made of birds lyrium dreams? Unconditionally, has a dream of the Maker which propels her to the Left Hand of the Divine, and later to spymaster, where she can approve or reject all of the Inquisition's agents. Skilled bard who does not catch Solas, the Ben-Hassrath agents, or the myriad ancient elves until after they've acted. Per her letter to Sketch, she may know about AoFs during DA:I, but doesn't tell the Inquisitor. Helps plan the Inquisitor's Tevinter move. If she's compromised, the new organization is too. Suspected to be important to someone lyrium-related, but it's unclear who. May be an unwitting agent. Purveyor of Teas. "We shared a nameless tea, you and I. One that was drunk in Tevinter of old. We are bound." Surfacer. Brews many varieties of tea, including one laced with lyrium. Lives in Serault, so he may just be weird. Mildly suspicious. Templar Order. Appears to extend, in some form, at least to the time of the ancient elves. Maybe further. Unusual, vaguely magic powers granted by lyrium. "The lyrium helps, but their bodies always want to connect to... something older, bigger than they are. That's why they block magic. They reach for that other thing, and magic has no room to come in." Per Solas, the templars protect people "from thinking", although that may be Solas being dramatic. Mildly suspicious at time of writing, though I wouldn't want to be within a mile of the templars when the old dreams reawaken. Viddasala's team. Started mining lyrium to boost their saarebas' magic. Likely very close to a titan's heart, as the lyrium keeps refilling. Also close to the point where the elves sealed off the Deep Roads, in terrible fear of something beneath. Jerren calls Viddasala as mad as Meredith. That could suggest lyrium, but she could also simply be power-hungry. Mildly suspicious. Sandal. Enchantment! Not enchantment at time of writing. Scaled OnesReptilian civilization from the Deep Roads. Attested both by ancient dwarves and ancient elves. Likely related to dragons in some way, whether by ancestry or the reaver/Qunari methods. May not have any stake in modern Thedas. If they do, Helsdim Rolfsen is going to fliiiiiiip. ????? ShadesThey aren't all double agents, but they sure are shady characters. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Cole. Can read minds, sort of. Wants to help you. Wants to help the Inquisitor too. Murdered some mages in the White Spire. Confirmed to be a spirit of despair in Asunder and Compassion in Inquisition. Still occasionally murders people, but prefers to go after the mean ones now. Horned Knight. Summoned by the Shame of Serault, who also helped bind Corypheus, because the Shame apparently operated on a "bind one loose one" policy. Rules the woods of Serault. Gives exciting gifts. Confirmed to be better than the Wayward Bard. How is that even a question? Lord Woolsley. Is a very special ram. Confirmed by people who can't keep a handle on their Chain Lightning. Solas. Named for an emotion. Wears armor with same broad shoulders, skinny legs, and sticky-out wrist things as a pride demon. Cut off the dreams to prevent the old dreams from waking. Killed Felassan so he'd stop posting selfies tagged #chillinwiththevillain #bffs #enansal'd #awoooo. While he's confirmed to be Fen'Harel, it's less clear whether he's a shade. We know he's not an abomination. Herren. Tries valiantly to keep Wade focused. Lover's name rhymes with "shade". Appears as a desire demon (purpose spirit?) in Darkspawn Chronicles, which is considered apocryphal. Unconfirmed in main canon at time of writing. Most of Kirkwall. Lives under a thin Veil. Prefers "virtue" names like Worthy. Can pop out of walls and ceilings, like terror demons. Unusually aggressive/confused, as if pulled into the world against their will. Very few children, yet population is steadily replenished. Probably attributable to Varric's artistic license. Mildly suspicious at time of writing. Staff of the Void...by which I mean the people staffing the Void/Abyss. Andruil. "Yet even a god should not linger there, and each time she entered the Void, Andruil suffered longer and longer periods of madness after returning. Andruil put on armor made of the Void, and all forgot her true face. She made weapons of darkness, and plague ate her lands. She howled things meant to be forgotten, and the other gods became fearful Andruil would hunt them in turn." It's generally assumed - though not confirmed - that her weapons, the plague, and possibly her armor were blighted. However, it's unclear whether they came from the Void (making the Void the source of the Blight), or were more effective at hunting in the Void (making the Blight an elven weapon). Mildly suspicious at time of writing. Branka. In retrospect, acts a bit like Valta. Is obsessed with finding the Anvil of the Void, to the point of leaving her entire party to the darkspawn so she could throw their spawn at traps. Could just be a garden-variety mad scientist. Mildly suspicious at time of writing. Caridin. Created the Anvil of the Void and the modern golem-making process. How did he know it would work? Has probably at least heard of the Sha-Brytol. Is unable to destroy the Anvil himself, but wants to. Only mildly suspicious, and also dead. So even if he's really tied to the Void (and didn't just give his anvil a cool name), he's unlikely to play a role. With the exception of... King Bhelen or King Harrowmont. Regardless of choices around the Anvil or the line of succession, the current king of Orzammar wears a crown forged on the Anvil of the Void. If the Anvil is destroyed, Caridin crafts the crown on it first. If the Anvil isn't destroyed, Branka makes the crown. Neither king has undergone any obvious changes, but this is still mildly suspicious. Titans. "And those who slept, the ancient ones, awoke / For their dreams had been devoured / By a demon that prowled the Fade / As a wolf hunts a herd of deer." Sleepy earth-pillars who cause earthquakes when the Fade touches them, probably. The ancient elves didn't like earthquakes but really liked the Fade, so that was a problem. At least one lives in (around?) the Uncharted Abyss. Mildly suspicious. It's still unknown whether the Void/Abyss is actually linked to titans, or some even deeper thing. And what's the deal with the Stone? She's supposedly "under Orlais", which is nowhere near the titan the Inquisitor visited. Is she even a titan? Whispers in Red Lyrium "We are here / We have waited / We have slept / We are sundered / We are crippled / We are polluted / We endure / We wait / We have found the dreams again / We will awaken." Could be anything from corrupted titans (since titans speak through lyrium) to elven gods (since "we endure" is 50% of ancient elves' vocabulary) to the Forgotten Ones(?), to something else entirely. Probably does not refer to the blight itself, since the blight would not consider itself polluted by the blight. Nor could it refer to archdemons, since the sleeping ones are (we think) not yet blighted. Extremely suspicious, but as of now we can't pinpoint the source. Empty Ones. Worshipped the blight, which they believed to come from the Void. "The Empty Ones believed the world to be beyond redemption, and that it was the Maker's will that it be destroyed completely." Got a head start on the destruction by standing in front of the darkspawn during the Second Blight. Deceased, and of questionable accuracy. VenatoriMarvel at perfection, for it is fleeting. Florianne de Chalons. Standard Orlesian noble. Doesn't waste time pretending to hate the Game, unlike certain members of her family who shall remain un-maned. Confirmed by herself. Gereon Alexius. Can time-travel. Slightly. Would prefer to time-travel further. Not all that loyal to Corypheus, but needs access to resources. Confirmed by Felix. Livius Erimond. Has a facial hair situation that wasn't a dead giveaway to the wardens. Convinces them that killing all the old gods would be cool, despite the fact that their song keeps darkspawn in the deep roads. Confirmed to be an asshole by Cole. Lucius Corin. Concocts elaborate plan to overthrow the Seekers by way of an envy demon, red lyrium, and the Order of Fiery Promise. Confirmed, Lucius does things in the most complicated way possible.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 23, 2017 18:20:17 GMT
I think some of the links are more tenuous than others but an interesting list. Would like clarification on a couple of points: Fen'Harel's Agents Felassan. Did Patrick Weekes give any explanation as to why Felassan's vallaslin were "probably" Mythal's? He never says which god's he has in the novel and since he doesn't revere any of them and it is just a cover, they could be anyone's. Which brings me on to the other query.
Cillian. I never did multiplayer but I did read his entry in World of Thedas 2 which made me rather interested in his character. I read in another post that Patrick Weekes had suggested or possibly simply not denied that he was an agent of Solas. Would you know anything about this?
I don't think the armour proves anything since the WoT2 entry says that he searched a number of old elven ruins and finally found an ancient elven shrine where he claims the secrets of the order were kept. Since we were able to pick up some ancient armour after our visit to Temple of Mythal, it is conceivable that he found the armour at the shrine. More to the point was the shrine occupied or not?
He definitely has his origins in Clan Ralaferin, so cannot be an actual ancient elf, but it is possible that one of Solas' ancient buddies, even Felassan himself, could have had a hand in teaching him his skills. Then again, may be he was taught by a spirit of the Fade lingering at the shrine. It is also possible that Solas only recruited him after he joined the Inquisition.
Personally, I'd like for Cillian not to be a follower of Solas and even have him appear again in the future on the side opposing him. Basically I'd like for at least one elf we have encountered (other than Sera) not to be a Solas "fan boy" and I would rather it was Cillian as I find him intriguing, so any information one way or the other would be helpful.
As for that unnamed servant in Trespasser, they sort of flagged up she was an agent even before she told you, by giving her a Welsh accent. Dalish elves are usually Irish (Merrill was an exception for reasons they explained at the time) and city elves usually have the accent of the alienage they originated in. So I now have a deep suspicion of any elf with a Welsh accent but particularly one without vallaslin. Mediums and Abominations The Horned Knight: Was amazed to see a connection with Corypheus. Went and checked the Wiki. Discovered the Wardens were even more lax in guarding Corypheus than I thought. Apparently in the space of relatively few years they needed to use 3 separate people to strengthen the wards, although I suppose Hawke wasn't really necessary as they were enticed into the prison and had to remove the wards in order to escape. Still, the wards failing the first time should have been enough of a wake up call that they should consider alternatives to dealing with Corypheus but when they had to use Malcolm Hawke for the same purpose, alarm bells should really have started ringing in Weishauppt. I think the Wardens are only secretive to hide their own incompetence.
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Post by arvaarad on Apr 23, 2017 21:22:32 GMT
Felassan. Did Patrick Weekes give any explanation as to why Felassan's vallaslin were "probably" Mythal's? He never says which god's he has in the novel and since he doesn't revere any of them and it is just a cover, they could be anyone's. Which brings me on to the other query. Cillian. I never did multiplayer but I did read his entry in World of Thedas 2 which made me rather interested in his character. I read in another post that Patrick Weekes had suggested or possibly simply not denied that he was an agent of Solas. Would you know anything about this? I don't think the armour proves anything since the WoT2 entry says that he searched a number of old elven ruins and finally found an ancient elven shrine where he claims the secrets of the order were kept. Since we were able to pick up some ancient armour after our visit to Temple of Mythal, it is conceivable that he found the armour at the shrine. More to the point was the shrine occupied or not? He definitely has his origins in Clan Ralaferin, so cannot be an actual ancient elf, but it is possible that one of Solas' ancient buddies, even Felassan himself, could have had a hand in teaching him his skills. Then again, may be he was taught by a spirit of the Fade lingering at the shrine. It is also possible that Solas only recruited him after he joined the Inquisition. Personally, I'd like for Cillian not to be a follower of Solas and even have him appear again in the future on the side opposing him. Basically I'd like for at least one elf we have encountered (other than Sera) not to be a Solas "fan boy" and I would rather it was Cillian as I find him intriguing, so any information one way or the other would be helpful. As for that unnamed servant in Trespasser, they sort of flagged up she was an agent even before she told you, by giving her a Welsh accent. Dalish elves are usually Irish (Merrill was an exception for reasons they explained at the time) and city elves usually have the accent of the alienage they originated in. So I now have a deep suspicion of any elf with a Welsh accent but particularly one without vallaslin. The Horned Knight: Was amazed to see a connection with Corypheus. Went and checked the Wiki. Discovered the Wardens were even more lax in guarding Corypheus than I thought. Apparently in the space of relatively few years they needed to use 3 separate people to strengthen the wards, although I suppose Hawke wasn't really necessary as they were enticed into the prison and had to remove the wards in order to escape. Still, the wards failing the first time should have been enough of a wake up call that they should consider alternatives to dealing with Corypheus but when they had to use Malcolm Hawke for the same purpose, alarm bells should really have started ringing in Weishauppt. I think the Wardens are only secretive to hide their own incompetence. For Felassan's vallaslin, I think someone asked him on Twitter, and he said something to the effect of "not specified, but probably Mythal?" If Solas previously had vallaslin, they were likely Mythal's as well. "He didn't want a body, but she asked him to come. He left a scar when he burned her off his face." If Cole was referring to Solas, then Solas' scar is consistent with Mythal's vallaslin, the full-grown tree. Plus Fen'Harel is heavily associated with Mythal when it comes to statues and temples, always in a guarding/protecting role. So it's speculated that he was some kind of guardian of Mythal like Abelas. For Cillian, all I know is that people strongly suspect he's an ancient elf. Possibly not an AoF, since he's got June vallaslin (and all confirmed AoFs are either barefaced or have Mythal vallaslin). But he's... shifty. In so many ways. And I agree with your assessment of the Wardens, haha. People love razzing them for their actions in Inquisition, but they've been mucking things up since before DA:O. It's a void-damned miracle that Alistair and the HoF weren't blight-mad nincompoops like the rest of the order throughout history.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 24, 2017 19:55:20 GMT
I ticked the box for the ancient elves being shades as I assume you mean "like Cole" as you have for Solas. I am convinced that the ancient elves were originally spirits (lst born of the Maker) that crossed from the Fade to the Unchanging World and the moment they came into contact with it, took on material forms. The longer they remained in the Unchanging World, the more fixed they became in their material form, so much so that the only way that they eventually could shed it would be to be killed, when their spirit would be released back into the Fade, unless they had taken preventative measures. It is also possible they could return to spirit form by crossing back into the Fade directly, but that would cause them to lose their material body and possibly their identity as well. Hence them developing Uthenera as a way that they could still access the Fade without losing their body and identity. They also developed the Crossroads and all the major structures of Arlathan, such as the Library, as an inbetween plane of existence that bridged the two worlds, allowing them to interact with spirits without either side being compromised and also to prevent the reaction of beings like Titans that objected their magical constructs in the Unchanging World.
When the Veil went up, those ancient elves trapped on the Thedas side still retained certain properties, like the ability to extend their lives through Uthenera. However, any elves born subsequent to the Veil were more grounded in the Unchanging World and every succeeding generation took them further from their origins. The reason that if they mate with other race the resulting offspring always favours the other race is due to the fact that the other races belong in Thedas and have their origins wholly there, whereas the elves still have that latent connection to the Fade, as evidenced by their different blood.
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Post by mabarigoeswoof on Apr 25, 2017 0:18:20 GMT
- 'If Anders is killed, Justice possesses a nearby vengeance-seeker: Sebastian.'
- 'The Grey Wardens advance, rather than hinder, the ultimate goal of the Blight.'
- 'The Blight is meant to deter people from unearthing something worse.'
Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
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Post by arvaarad on Apr 25, 2017 2:08:41 GMT
I ticked the box for the ancient elves being shades as I assume you mean "like Cole" as you have for Solas. I am convinced that the ancient elves were originally spirits (lst born of the Maker) that crossed from the Fade to the Unchanging World and the moment they came into contact with it, took on material forms. The longer they remained in the Unchanging World, the more fixed they became in their material form, so much so that the only way that they eventually could shed it would be to be killed, when their spirit would be released back into the Fade, unless they had taken preventative measures. It is also possible they could return to spirit form by crossing back into the Fade directly, but that would cause them to lose their material body and possibly their identity as well. Hence them developing Uthenera as a way that they could still access the Fade without losing their body and identity. They also developed the Crossroads and all the major structures of Arlathan, such as the Library, as an inbetween plane of existence that bridged the two worlds, allowing them to interact with spirits without either side being compromised and also to prevent the reaction of beings like Titans that objected their magical constructs in the Unchanging World.
When the Veil went up, those ancient elves trapped on the Thedas side still retained certain properties, like the ability to extend their lives through Uthenera. However, any elves born subsequent to the Veil were more grounded in the Unchanging World and every succeeding generation took them further from their origins. The reason that if they mate with other race the resulting offspring always favours the other race is due to the fact that the other races belong in Thedas and have their origins wholly there, whereas the elves still have that latent connection to the Fade, as evidenced by their different blood. Yeah, it's a theory I believe also. It does lead to an amusing question: can you stack abominations? Like, if mortal elves are descended from spirits, a possessed elf is a spirit(ish) with another spirit inside them. So can the spirit possessing them have another tinier spirit possessing it? Can we construct infinitely deep abomination nesting-dolls? - 'If Anders is killed, Justice possesses a nearby vengeance-seeker: Sebastian.'
- 'The Grey Wardens advance, rather than hinder, the ultimate goal of the Blight.'
- 'The Blight is meant to deter people from unearthing something worse.'
Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. Ha! I can't claim credit for most of them - many are common fan theories that I'm passing along. I especially like the Justice+Sebastian one because (1) it would be deeply ironic (2) he'd have an easier time hiding it, because his eyes are already bright blue and (3) surprisingly, there's a precedent for Marcher rulers getting possessed; Khedra, the viscount of Kaiten, was possessed by a pride demon. The Blight-as-a-deterrent theory has a really interesting backstory, so I had to include it. It goes as follows. There's a codex entry in Here Lies the Abyss called The Keepers of Fear. Here's how it begins: Two key points here. One, this is referring to the Blight. Two, "this was not a place of honor" is a reference to something in real life: nuclear waste disposal sites. When people were determining that they needed to dump nuclear waste, they realized it would remain dangerous for a really long time. About ten millennia, in fact. Over that time, people would not only forget the location, but their language, culture, and technology could change to such a degree that they wouldn't be able to read any warnings, or detect the radiation. Even worse, they might interpret warnings like we interpret the warnings in Egyptian tombs - superstitious nonsense, meant to keep people from robbing the graves. So they'd be even more likely to dig it up. There might be valuables! A committee was formed to solve this problem. How do we protect our descendants, who might know nothing about radioactivity or understand our warning symbols/languages, and send the following message: They came up with several ideas for different messaging schemes. Maybe have tablets in multiple languages, then add blank tablets at the end, instructing people to add more translations as the original languages became archaic. Or maybe make really huge, jagged dirt mounds that looked forbidding but held no materials of value. And then there's this: i.e., just hope people will only breach the top layer of the nuclear waste, and get sick enough to leave the bulk of the danger still buried. When it comes to warning people off blighted land, modern Thedas seems to have settled on screaming statues. But the way the ancient elves talk about... whatever it was that frightened them. What is it? "Broke the dreams to stop the old dreams from waking", "let no one wake its anger", etc. Is that the Blight? What if the Blight is the elves' equivalent of screaming statues, their equivalent of a "limited amount of sickness and death"? If so, what is it warning us away from?
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Post by mabarigoeswoof on Apr 26, 2017 5:29:28 GMT
I especially like the Justice+Sebastian one because (1) it would be deeply ironic (2) he'd have an easier time hiding it, because his eyes are already bright blue and (3) surprisingly, there's a precedent for Marcher rulers getting possessed; Khedra, the viscount of Kaiten, was possessed by a pride demon. That kind of irony is like fucking catnip. I love it. But the way the ancient elves talk about... whatever it was that frightened them. What is it? "Broke the dreams to stop the old dreams from waking", "let no one wake its anger", etc. Is that the Blight? What if the Blight is the elves' equivalent of screaming statues, their equivalent of a "limited amount of sickness and death"? If so, what is it warning us away from? Broodmothers are the first thing that comes to mind, but I'd consider them part of the Blight itself, so I don't think that's right (if the Blight is the warning about something worse, I'm gonna need BW to hire Clive Barker or Brian Lumely to write that story line!)
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Post by arvaarad on Apr 26, 2017 13:08:41 GMT
Broodmothers are the first thing that comes to mind That's true, something like a blighted titan might fit the bill. Titans seem to produce(?) a lot of dwarves. Actually, I'm not sure if they produce them or if all the Sha-Brytol just wandered down there Valta-style. I'm... assuming the sealed lyrium armor eliminates procreation between Sha-Brytol. If titans do generate dwarves, a red titan could theoretically pump out a lot of genlocks. Possibly ones encased in lyrium armor, which would make them stronger than modern darkspawn. They'd be more similar to red templars. A massive army of red templars. A massive army of perfectly obedient red templars. A massive army of perfectly obedient red templars with advanced weaponry. Hmmmmm. That does sound a bit... bad.
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Post by mabarigoeswoof on Apr 27, 2017 3:41:23 GMT
Broodmothers are the first thing that comes to mind That's true, something like a blighted titan might fit the bill. Titans seem to produce(?) a lot of dwarves. Actually, I'm not sure if they produce them or if all the Sha-Brytol just wandered down there Valta-style. I'm... assuming the sealed lyrium armor eliminates procreation between Sha-Brytol. If titans do generate dwarves, a red titan could theoretically pump out a lot of genlocks. Possibly ones encased in lyrium armor, which would make them stronger than modern darkspawn. They'd be more similar to red templars. A massive army of red templars. A massive army of perfectly obedient red templars. A massive army of perfectly obedient red templars with advanced weaponry. Hmmmmm. That does sound a bit... bad. I'd always assumed the Heidrun Thaig codex was just a ghoul/darkspawn reference, but it definitely could be about something else. There's also this: And if the Wardens and Legion of the Dead keep digging, they're going to let it loose. (also, the whole lyrium inscribed, really strong warrior thing the Sha-Brytol have going? Totally reminds me of Fenris)
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Post by arvaarad on Apr 29, 2017 17:32:29 GMT
Got to say, I'm entertained by the poll results so far. I expected "the Black City was Arlathan" and "the Qunari are dragon/elf hybrids" to do well. I didn't expect so many people to think the Wardens are tools of the Blight. For the record, so do I.
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Post by Pain Delta on May 7, 2017 10:16:11 GMT
For some reason I think Andraste is going to end up being an Old God, revealed only when the rest of the Old Gods are blighted and dead. I think I got the idea from the Cult of Andraste, who unfortunately have very little information in the codexes, but I can't help but feel like they were almost onto something with Andraste taking the form of a dragon (while mistakenly projecting that thought onto the High Dragon) with more reasoning than we were able to see. With how old the Cult is, and how they did have access to what is most likely Andraste's literal ashes (and for the skeptical, random magic ashes), they have to have to know something we don't that caused that line of thought, right?
So I guess that is a yes, Andraste is/was reincarnated as a dragon/Old God, but the High Dragon was not the one they were seeking. Too bad the HoF killed the whole Cult.
EDIT: I have to add hell yes I am bumping this well polished thread in the hopes to get some theory crafting going get your lore hats on !! Heated Discussion !!
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2017 10:54:56 GMT
I have an issue with one of these choices, if Anders is killed in DA2 Sebastian doesn't seem vengence, so it wouldn't be possible
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Post by gervaise21 on May 7, 2017 10:56:42 GMT
Much of the thinking behind the Cult of Andraste is explained in the Jaws of Hakkon. The disciples of Andraste were the descendants of Alaamari barbarians who had retained much of their religious beliefs that Drakon wiped out in other parts of the world. WoT2 confirms this as it says that there were many different cults of Andraste after her death, many still worshipping the Maker alongside their own animist beliefs. Then along came Drakon with his desire to "simplify things", in the words of Ameriden, and make everyone conform to his particular cult. The people of Haven escaped this purge and in fact it was Drakon's actions that probably made them cut themselves off in the first place.
The Avvar were an offshoot of the lowland barbarians, so it is likely that many of their beliefs would have been similar. The Avvar believe that certain favoured souls are destined to return to the world in the future. Those individuals will not precisely remember their former lives but may recall some aspects through dreams and visions. The Avvar also believe that a hold spirit, that is associated with a particular clan or group, can be called into a hold beast to aid them in the material world. This is what the original Hakkonites did with the dragon we encounter in the game. They also apparently got the idea for the ritual from elven ruins, so it is likely something the ancient elves did as well. The early Neromenians would seem to use dragons to fight for them and believed their heroes would be reborn as dragons.
So really the Cult of Andraste were simply following a very ancient tradition of the human tribes. According to WoT2 the HoF didn't get everyone; the multi-player character Tamar was a member of the cult and continued to wage war against the Chantry at Haven, until persuaded to join the Inquisition after the breach. A quote from her: "The gilded Chantry says only one truth exists, and its servants lie, steal, kill to make it so." She said this to Neria of the Dalish and she felt a kinship with Tamar from that day.
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Go back to lesbian college to learn words
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Post by Pain Delta on May 7, 2017 11:02:36 GMT
Much of the thinking behind the Cult of Andraste is explained in the Jaws of Hakkon. The disciples of Andraste were the descendants of Alaamari barbarians who had retained much of their religious beliefs that Drakon wiped out in other parts of the world. WoT2 confirms this as it says that there were many different cults of Andraste after her death, many still worshipping the Maker alongside their own animist beliefs. Then along came Drakon with his desire to "simplify things", in the words of Ameriden, and make everyone conform to his particular cult. The people of Haven escaped this purge and in fact it was Drakon's actions that probably made them cut themselves off in the first place. The Avvar were an offshoot of the lowland barbarians, so it is likely that many of their beliefs would have been similar. The Avvar believe that certain favoured souls are destined to return to the world in the future. Those individuals will not precisely remember their former lives but may recall some aspects through dreams and visions. The Avvar also believe that a hold spirit, that is associated with a particular clan or group, can be called into a hold beast to aid them in the material world. This is what the original Hakkonites did with the dragon we encounter in the game. They also apparently got the idea for the ritual from elven ruins, so it is likely something the ancient elves did as well. The early Neromenians would seem to use dragons to fight for them and believed their heroes would be reborn as dragons. So really the Cult of Andraste were simply following a very ancient tradition of the human tribes. According to WoT2 the HoF didn't get everyone; the multi-player character Tamar was a member of the cult and continued to wage war against the Chantry at Haven, until persuaded to join the Inquisition after the breach. A quote from her: "The gilded Chantry says only one truth exists, and its servants lie, steal, kill to make it so." She said this to Neria of the Dalish and she felt a kinship with Tamar from that day. I realize now I reeeaaally need to read the 2 guide books lol, NPCs and codex don't really paint a full picture. I still believe Andraste is the final Old God but with a lot less red strings attached and a lot more sticky notes with question marks.
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Post by arvaarad on May 7, 2017 14:46:26 GMT
Much of the thinking behind the Cult of Andraste is explained in the Jaws of Hakkon. The disciples of Andraste were the descendants of Alaamari barbarians who had retained much of their religious beliefs that Drakon wiped out in other parts of the world. WoT2 confirms this as it says that there were many different cults of Andraste after her death, many still worshipping the Maker alongside their own animist beliefs. Then along came Drakon with his desire to "simplify things", in the words of Ameriden, and make everyone conform to his particular cult. The people of Haven escaped this purge and in fact it was Drakon's actions that probably made them cut themselves off in the first place. The Avvar were an offshoot of the lowland barbarians, so it is likely that many of their beliefs would have been similar. The Avvar believe that certain favoured souls are destined to return to the world in the future. Those individuals will not precisely remember their former lives but may recall some aspects through dreams and visions. The Avvar also believe that a hold spirit, that is associated with a particular clan or group, can be called into a hold beast to aid them in the material world. This is what the original Hakkonites did with the dragon we encounter in the game. They also apparently got the idea for the ritual from elven ruins, so it is likely something the ancient elves did as well. The early Neromenians would seem to use dragons to fight for them and believed their heroes would be reborn as dragons. So really the Cult of Andraste were simply following a very ancient tradition of the human tribes. According to WoT2 the HoF didn't get everyone; the multi-player character Tamar was a member of the cult and continued to wage war against the Chantry at Haven, until persuaded to join the Inquisition after the breach. A quote from her: "The gilded Chantry says only one truth exists, and its servants lie, steal, kill to make it so." She said this to Neria of the Dalish and she felt a kinship with Tamar from that day. I realize now I reeeaaally need to read the 2 guide books lol, NPCs and codex don't really paint a full picture. I still believe Andraste is the final Old God but with a lot less red strings attached and a lot more sticky notes with question marks. Hmmmmm, I wonder if there's some link between the religious practices of the pre-Koslun qunari* and the Haven cultists. The pre-Qunari qunari were said to be animist, just like the Avvar and Alamarri. And many (all?) of the Haven cultists are reavers, which means they drink dragon blood. Cassandra mentions that if reavers drink too much blood, they start looking and acting** more dragon-y. One speculated origin of the qunari is that they're descended from really advanced reavers. And then there's the Scaled Ones, who look even more dragon-y than the qunari. Is there something about these animist beliefs that inevitably draws people to dragons? Or do all these beliefs stem from the same source, that coincidentally included these dragon elements? Or is this just a factor of dragons being awesome, and multiple religious traditions discovered that independently? Dragons are pretty magical, to be fair. They have an incredibly high tolerance for the Blight. Tevinter worshipped them. Gods like Hakkon and Mythal seem to love them. The ancient elves also seemed to associate them with gods. Sylaise breathed fire, Elgar'nan scorched the sky, and taking on wings seems to have been forbidden for non-gods. Plus, Dragon Age. They must be a wee bit important to the overall arc. --- *using lowercase-q "qunari" here, because the devs seem pretty adamant that "kossith" isn't the right word for the race. **if qunari have dragon emotions, it would fit with Sten's reaction to losing his sword, Bull's perception of Tal-Vashoth, Solas'... super racist comments to Adaar, and the Arishok's behavior in Kirkwall. Perhaps the Qun is like the Vulcan philosophy in Star Trek, where they prize rational behavior in order to avoid being torn apart by their naturally intense emotions.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 7, 2017 16:57:36 GMT
Kossith is only considered wrong because the race is said to have changed so much once the Qun got involved. So pre-Koslun qunari were Kossith. Also people of Thedas being largely unaware that they were ever called something else now call the race qunari and the Qun also insist on doing so because they like to feel they have distanced themselves from their "savage" ancestors. The writers/devs use Kossith to describe those of the race who arrived in southern Ferelden before the Blight and so I must assume that they were indeed Kossith and not qunari.
Whilst the comics are not meant to be "canon", even so you would think that lore in there must be fairly accurate considering the first series was written by David Gaider. There are strong hints there that the qunari have a very close link to dragons. It is also suggested by Yavana that before the Veil dragons ruled the skies, which might simply refer to the Evanuris in their dragon form or that literally there were a lot of dragons flying around, which might account for why not only dwarves but elves and even the early humans seem to have made their structures underground. She also claimed that the "blood of the dragons was the blood of the world" or something similar and that killing them off would be bad for the human race. I wonder though if the writers decided to change the vital element from being the blood of dragons to the blood of the Titans. Or may be dragons and Titans are related in some way.
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Post by arvaarad on May 7, 2017 18:10:25 GMT
Kossith is only considered wrong because the race is said to have changed so much once the Qun got involved. So pre-Koslun qunari were Kossith. The lore is kind of fuzzy on this. When Iron Bull talks about the kossith, he seems to put "people who were kossith" and "people who would become the Qunari" into two different categories. " We came south to Thedas because the kossith were... I don't know. We had to leave. The stories aren't clear." It almost sounds like modern qunari fled from the kossith, rather than being descended from them. They could very well be descended from them too, but I'm not sure that's confirmed. It all happened so long ago that records are likely to be jumbled.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 7, 2017 21:53:49 GMT
The thing is it wasn't that long ago. Iron Bull probably doesn't know because he wasn't told or is being deliberately evasive because the Ben-Hassrath are not meant to talk about such things. The Qun only invaded Par Vollen some 300 years ago, so unless they stopped off somewhere else on route for a considerable period of time, the records should not be jumbled at all, even if it was only an oral record. To my mind the priesthood are deliberately supressing the truth from their people and the nature of their philosophy and discipline means the rank and file do not question the official line. Bull though is from the area under the control of the Ariqun, who is responsible for all teaching disseminated to their followers, and he was a member of the Secret Police charged with ferreting out dissent and therefore more likely to come into contact with unorthodox beliefs. That's why I think he probably knew more than he let on. Remember that whole Iron Bull persona was originally an act to fool people into thinking he was a simple mercenary but as he reveals from time to time, he is actually very observant of everything going on around him. So I think that the vagueness of his answer was simply an act.
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Post by arvaarad on May 7, 2017 23:12:56 GMT
The thing is it wasn't that long ago. Iron Bull probably doesn't know because he wasn't told or is being deliberately evasive because the Ben-Hassrath are not meant to talk about such things. The Qun only invaded Par Vollen some 300 years ago, so unless they stopped off somewhere else on route for a considerable period of time, the records should not be jumbled at all, even if it was only an oral record. To my mind the priesthood are deliberately supressing the truth from their people and the nature of their philosophy and discipline means the rank and file do not question the official line. Bull though is from the area under the control of the Ariqun, who is responsible for all teaching disseminated to their followers, and he was a member of the Secret Police charged with ferreting out dissent and therefore more likely to come into contact with unorthodox beliefs. That's why I think he probably knew more than he let on. Remember that whole Iron Bull persona was originally an act to fool people into thinking he was a simple mercenary but as he reveals from time to time, he is actually very observant of everything going on around him. So I think that the vagueness of his answer was simply an act. Yeah, I'm inclined to think the start of his answer was the correct info (as he understood it), then he realized halfway through that he wasn't supposed to talk about it. Hence the breaking off mid-sentence.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 14, 2017 18:57:01 GMT
Arvaarad, perhaps you can clear something up for me. People keep mentioning a northern continent suggesting it as a possible origin for the qunari. However, whilst I know there is land to the north, I've always understood this is in the form of numerous islands, the largest and most mysterious of which is the legendry Par Ladi. Both Tevinter and the Qunari have explored these northern islands and settled some of them (but not Par Ladi)
I thought the likely unknown continent would be over the Amaranthine Sea to the west, including the home of the illusive Executors. So have a missed an important reference somewhere?
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Post by arvaarad on May 14, 2017 23:29:46 GMT
Arvaarad, perhaps you can clear something up for me. People keep mentioning a northern continent suggesting it as a possible origin for the qunari. However, whilst I know there is land to the north, I've always understood this is in the form of numerous islands, the largest and most mysterious of which is the legendry Par Ladi. Both Tevinter and the Qunari have explored these northern islands and settled some of them (but not Par Ladi) I thought the likely unknown continent would be over the Amaranthine Sea to the west, including the home of the illusive Executors. So have a missed an important reference somewhere? Yep, the Qunari currently live in some of the known northern islands (among other places). IIRC, they originally came from even further north, a place which is currently unknown. It's unclear whether that's due to distance or... something else. All we know is that the Qunari "had to leave", sailing south to the continent of Thedas. The records are foggy on why.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 16, 2017 19:56:39 GMT
A couple more things to add to the ideas already mentioned. I notice that in the first comic series Sten refers to the Tome of Koslun and says that in it Koslun talks about the ancient Tevinter Imperium and the old gods. Koslun was meant to have wandered the world while coming up with his ideas so that at least seems to put a fix on a date before which the Qun could not have existed.
Do you think it is significant that the joining ritual and the idea about how to get rid of the archdemon originally came from elven slaves recruited into the original Wardens? Bearing in mind that the elven slaves were descendants of those captured in the fall of the city in Arlathan Forest and it is clear from their fond memories of the elven gods that their leaders at least were supporters of the Evanuris. I think they would certainly have known about soul jumping and also calling spirits into a body (as the Avvar did and apparently originally got their ideas from elven ruins) but it does make me wonder if they wanted to break the cycle of the old god soul returning to a darkspawn host in order to let it go somewhere else, but simply told the other Wardens that it was destroyed in the process when they knew in fact it wasn't. Mythal knew what they were about but couldn't intervene directly since she was still stuck as a wisp in the Fade. She didn't get out of the Fade and into Flemeth until after the 3rd Blight. I wonder if Flemeth tried the same ploy with Garahel but he refused, so she had to wait until the 5th Blight for another shot at capturing a old god soul.
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Post by arvaarad on May 16, 2017 22:19:48 GMT
A couple more things to add to the ideas already mentioned. I notice that in the first comic series Sten refers to the Tome of Koslun and says that in it Koslun talks about the ancient Tevinter Imperium and the old gods. Koslun was meant to have wandered the world while coming up with his ideas so that at least seems to put a fix on a date before which the Qun could not have existed. There's another interesting factor here, which I recently noticed when looking at Qunlat. The word "hissra" means "illusion", but it also means "god" (because gods are considered to be an illusion). So let's look at the most famous part of the Qunari creed: Struggle is an illusion. The tide rises, the tide falls, but the sea is changeless. There is nothing to struggle against. Victory is in the Qun.Swap out "hissra": There is a god named "Struggle". The tide rises, the tide falls, but the sea is changeless. Struggle opposes nothing. Victory is in the Qun.Or possibly: The gods struggle. The tide rises, the tide falls, but the sea is changeless. They struggle against nothing. Victory is in the Qun.There's also a very common pattern throughout languages in Thedas where "nothing" can be exchanged with "the Void" or "the Blight". How about this possibility: Rebellion is a god. The tide rises, the tide falls, but the sea is changeless. Rebel against the Void/Blight. Victory is in the Qun.These are loose translations at best. But we've known this phrase, and the double meaning of hissra, for a long time. I'm interested whether there's hidden information in there. Do you think it is significant that the joining ritual and the idea about how to get rid of the archdemon originally came from elven slaves recruited into the original Wardens? Bearing in mind that the elven slaves were descendants of those captured in the fall of the city in Arlathan Forest and it is clear from their fond memories of the elven gods that their leaders at least were supporters of the Evanuris. I think they would certainly have known about soul jumping and also calling spirits into a body (as the Avvar did and apparently originally got their ideas from elven ruins) but it does make me wonder if they wanted to break the cycle of the old god soul returning to a darkspawn host in order to let it go somewhere else, but simply told the other Wardens that it was destroyed in the process when they knew in fact it wasn't. Mythal knew what they were about but couldn't intervene directly since she was still stuck as a wisp in the Fade. She didn't get out of the Fade and into Flemeth until after the 3rd Blight. I wonder if Flemeth tried the same ploy with Garahel but he refused, so she had to wait until the 5th Blight for another shot at capturing a old god soul. It is odd how wardens figured it out before Mythal was back in town. I do agree there's a genuine possibility that "destroyed" souls are freed, which... could be a problem.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2017 23:16:44 GMT
I would like to join in the fun. I have one tinfoil hat theory that I didn't see up on your poll (my apologies if I missed it). I have suspected, even before the release of Trespasser, that the Qunari are being manipulated through their priestesses by one of the Evanuris or Old God's. Either Razikale or Ghilan'nain, I'm not sure which, perhaps they are the same person.
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Post by arvaarad on May 19, 2017 1:09:44 GMT
I would like to join in the fun. I have one tinfoil hat theory that I didn't see up on your poll (my apologies if I missed it). I have suspected, even before the release of Trespasser, that the Qunari are being manipulated through their priestesses by one of the Evanuris or Old God's. Either Razikale or Ghilan'nain, I'm not sure which, perhaps they are the same person. Ooooooo I like this one. It would tie in nicely with the "hissra=illusion=god" information too. "Struggle is an illusion" ==> "The gods struggle" ==> "The gods are at war" "There is nothing to struggle against" ==> "Struggle against nothing" ==> "Struggle against the Void" Maybe all this time, we think Koslun is spouting a vaguely Buddhist philosophy, when meanwhile the Qunari are actually talking about the gods' war against the Forgotten Ones. If we suppose that the Void is the source of the Blight, half-dragon warriors would be a logical way to fight it, because dragons have a high resistance to the Blight. There's also Fiona, who mysteriously ceased to be a Grey Warden after boinking Maric Theirin. This is believed to have happened because Calenhad Theirin drank a buuuuuuunch of dragon blood back in his day. (cw: blood) The Theirins don't even look that dragon-y, and yet Maric's magical dragon dick cured Fiona of the Blight. I can't even imagine how Blight resistant the giant horned fellows must be. Like dragons, they clearly can be turned (hence ogres), but I expect it takes more effort.
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