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Post by formerfiend on Apr 26, 2017 6:33:23 GMT
So Bioware games are known for their snarky, sarcastic, often Whedonesque sense of humor, but I'm wondering if that humor hasn't become overplayed to the point of actively hurting the stories that Bioware wants to tell by deflating their villains and taking the stakes out of the situation; if the characters in game aren't taking the situations they're in seriously, then why should we? Now I personally think you need a certain amount of levity in a story to add a human quality to it because otherwise it can paradoxically become silly by just how dour and serious it is, but at the same time I think Bioware would do well to dial the humor back a few notches in the next Dragon Age game.
But I'm just one man and that's just one man's opinion, which is why I made the poll.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 7:10:07 GMT
As long as it's done right I'm ok with both. If they want to make a darker game it's fine but don't make it some emo shit. Same goes to lighter tones
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Post by Iddy on Apr 26, 2017 11:37:31 GMT
Tone up! I friggin' love those moments.
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Post by azarhal on Apr 26, 2017 12:15:08 GMT
I'm not sure why people want BioWare to drop their snark and camp style. It's one of the studio defining traits and they are basically the last developers who haven't jumped into the bandwagon of "dark, gritty and serious".
Also, they toned it down. None of their recent games reach Jade Empire campiness (it is so glorious, I need more Jade Empire *sigh*) and MEA despite people complaining about the lighter tone doesn't reach the level of DA2 purple Hawke. Also, with Gaider gone, I expect the next DA game to have less snark, it mostly came from his characters.
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Post by Gwydden on Apr 26, 2017 14:31:37 GMT
I'm not sure why people want BioWare to drop their snark and camp style. It's one of the studio defining traits and they are basically the last developers who haven't jumped into the bandwagon of "dark, gritty and serious". That's only because they have been making the same game over and over again since the '90s, using a formula that hasn't been original for five thousand years, give or take. The problem is not even that they're campy, but that they keep being campy in the most trite way possible. I can sort of accept it with ME, which has always drawn from generic pop sci fi and Hollywood, but DA has been more ambitious since its conception.
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Post by Heimdall on Apr 26, 2017 14:31:56 GMT
I don't want them to drop the snark and camp, but I feel like they rely on it too much. It works best when it's offsetting more serious moments.
Though they could also do with not making the serious moments so melodramatic that it's impossible to take them seriously, as they sometimes do, especially with Corypheus.
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Post by Hrungr on Apr 26, 2017 15:16:32 GMT
Purple Hawke is still my favorite protag in the series, so I would love to see something in the neighbourhood of that tone return as an option in DA4. My problem with the blank slate Inquisitor is that downplayed their personality so much, I find they're the most boring character in the group. I don't think I could quote you 3 memorable lines from Inky in the entire (main) game. Though they do inject a little personality (but not a lot) in the character in some of the later DLC. I also wouldn't mind seeing intimidating/charming opportunities...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 15:29:59 GMT
I would love for them to do the same thing they did with Hawke. The 'snark/humorous' option as one main character voice. I like their lighter written games, JE, DA2, SWTOR Smuggler and Bounty Hunter, and Andromeda.
A character with an option of a voice like the Bounty Hunter (and the male VA for him, omg...) would totally make my DA4 run the best.
Inquisitor was too mellow. Ryder is better, but too nice (but good VAs).
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Post by piratesnugglecakes on Apr 26, 2017 15:32:48 GMT
I don't want them to do less humor; just be mindful of where they use it. You can ruin the tone of a game with too much humor just as a game can be a real downer to play if there is no humor in it at all. It's a balance they usually do pretty well.
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Post by phoray on Apr 26, 2017 15:41:44 GMT
I'd like to see examples of where they got too funny in DAI. Loved the Goat Scene and judging a box is so ridiculous is should be mocked- and only one of three things you can say takes that matter into account. Can't even think of much else that is funny in DAI-- the bear jokes in Jaws of Hakkon? is that the "camp" humor?
Loved Purple Hawke. Keep the snark, don't lose it- add more of it. I want bitter biting Dr. House Sarcasm as well as "Life is so ridiculous, I must mock it constantly to keep my sanity" humor.
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Post by azarhal on Apr 26, 2017 15:44:18 GMT
I'm not sure why people want BioWare to drop their snark and camp style. It's one of the studio defining traits and they are basically the last developers who haven't jumped into the bandwagon of "dark, gritty and serious". That's only because they have been making the same game over and over again since the '90s, using a formula that hasn't been original for five thousand years, give or take. The problem is not even that they're campy, but that they keep being campy in the most trite way possible. I can sort of accept it with ME, which has always drawn from generic pop sci fi and Hollywood, but DA has been more ambitious since its conception. If you don't like the camp aspect, you'll think it's all trite. I don't, I love the cheese and corn. How was DA ambitious? I'm replaying DAO and what I'm experiencing is a self-derisive campy game. The amount of time a party member chipped in to complains about "yet another errands" is too numerous for it to be otherwise.
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Post by arvaarad on Apr 26, 2017 15:45:56 GMT
Purple Hawke is still my favorite protag in the series, so I would love to see something in the neighbourhood of that tone return as an option in DA4. My problem with the blank slate Inquisitor is that downplayed their personality so much, I find they're the most boring character in the group. I don't think I could quote you 3 memorable lines from Inky in the entire (main) game. Though they do inject a little personality (but not a lot) in the character in some of the later DLC. I also wouldn't mind seeing intimidating/charming opportunities... Mean Inquisitor (bottom dialog option, the one that was red in DA2) is pretty entertaining. Especially if combined with Sumalee's flawless deadpan. Every time Corypheus monologues, they mercilessly call him out on it. "We will prove here, once and for all, which of us is worthy of godhood!" "You aren't proving anything by talking."
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Post by Gwydden on Apr 26, 2017 16:08:11 GMT
That's only because they have been making the same game over and over again since the '90s, using a formula that hasn't been original for five thousand years, give or take. The problem is not even that they're campy, but that they keep being campy in the most trite way possible. I can sort of accept it with ME, which has always drawn from generic pop sci fi and Hollywood, but DA has been more ambitious since its conception. If you don't like the camp aspect, you'll think it's all trite. I don't, I love the cheese and corn. How was DA ambitious? I'm replaying DAO and what I'm experiencing is a self-derisive campy game. The amount of time a party member chipped in to complains about "yet another errands" is too numerous for it to be otherwise. I do like camp; imaginative, over-the-top camp, to be specific. Sword and sorcery and planetary romances take it to downright absurd levels, and I love them for it. Bioware's Whedonesque "cheese and corn" is too tame: it relies on taking cliches and sugarcoating them with a tiresome layer of snark. I think they can do better. I specifically said DA is more ambitious than ME. It does not always hit the mark, but it often tries. The best aspects of Dragon Age are those the devs allow themselves to take seriously: class and racial tensions, interpersonal conflicts, ideological and religious issues... Again, I'm not saying these are handled particularly well all the time or even most of the time, but they show a willingness to move past the buddy comedy approach to storytelling. Dragon Age: Origins is my favorite Bioware game to date. The main plot is awful, but that's not much of a problem since it is really just an excuse to get you to experience the game's collection of standalone episodes. The best part of that game are the origins themselves: little personal stories which flesh out aspects of the world, and with much more compelling conflicts at their core than the darkspawn. Said conflicts get fleshed out later in the main game, constituting its most compelling parts. Dragon Age 2, while lackluster in its execution, is still Bioware's most original game and the most interesting conceptually. Moving on, I would like future Dragon Age games to draw more from the smaller episodes in the first two games than from the main premises of either the first or third entries. One big reason I dislike Inquisition is because it seems to be moving away from this and into generic D&D territory. My ideal Dragon Age game is a personal drama told through colorful vignettes illustrating the nature of life in Thedas, able to combine moodiness with the occasional levity.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 16:10:48 GMT
Worst. idea. ever. The humor is what makes it a Bioware game and what has made DA specifically my favorite franchise. If they were to go the humorless "dark and gritty" route I would be very disappointed, and to be honest, a fantasy game (or movie, or book for that matter) that takes itself too seriously can be even more laughable in the worst kind of way.
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Post by leadintea on Apr 26, 2017 16:20:35 GMT
I'm really hoping that the snark/sarcasm will be toned down a lot now that Gaider is gone. It's okay every once in a while but the DA series, Gaider's characters especially, spammed it to the point it got tiring for me. Plus since we're going to be involved with both Tevinter and the Qunari, I'm hoping there'll be matters that have a little more gravity to them. A little bit of black comedy, like in TW3, would be fine as well.
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formerfiend
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Post by formerfiend on Apr 26, 2017 17:15:40 GMT
I'd like to stress that I'm not suggesting they remove the humor entirely, by any stretch of the imagination. I just personally think they could stand to tone it down a few notches because as it is they're dangerously close to qualifying as comedy games in my opinion.
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Post by phoray on Apr 26, 2017 17:28:47 GMT
I'd like to stress that I'm not suggesting they remove the humor entirely, by any stretch of the imagination. I just personally think they could stand to tone it down a few notches because as it is they're dangerously close to qualifying as comedy games in my opinion. DAI starts with an explosion that kills hundreds from a gathered Conclave with the intent to end a war that has killed thousands.The protaganist is accused of causing that explosion. Regardless, you're prodded at the point of a sword with a hypothetical promise of a trial to go close a Breach into the Spirit World- well, one of the smaller ones. You accomplish this act after battling to kill a Pride Demon, perhaps the first time you've ever seen such a monster. And the act, as little as it really accomplished, nearly kills you and puts you into an unconsious fever for three days. When you wake, only the yokels desperation to see "The Maker" in what's happening around them to explain the chaos, death, and destruction, decide to name you the chosen one of the prophet Andraste. This, and this mysterious painful glowing hand which has already tried to kill you twice, are the only things that don't get you thrown into a dungeon and tortured for information about the explosion of the Conclave. Other evidence of dark gritty- The Crestwood Mayor maintaining his power for ten years + after killing half the village to save the other half. Mistress Paulin selling the sick and infirm as slaves/materials for experiments to the Red Templars to feed the remaining healthy but apparently useless as hell people in the town. The reason Cole Exists. A sister turning on her country and brother to gain power. And I could go on an on. like the letter explaining that a man tried to rape an injured woman on the road. Real light reading there. But this post would just never end. So, again, I'm asking where the light hearted comedy is occuring. Dorian's snark to cover up his drunken depression? Sera's ignorance and loud mouth she uses to hide her fear? Leliana going completely off the deep end to deal with her grief?
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Post by Gwydden on Apr 26, 2017 17:36:33 GMT
phoray : I think unintentional (or rather poorly applied) comedy is the worst kind of comedy. What plot there is to Inquisition centers around Corypheus. Such a narrative is impossible to take seriously, likely because not even the devs seemed able to do so. Coryfish is a joke, and everyone in your team will let you know as much. You see a similar problem, in a smaller scale, with Whatsherface the Countess in the ball sequence, who you even get to sentence-while-a-corpse-in-a-box-ha-ha-so-funny or make her your jester because giggles.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 26, 2017 17:58:45 GMT
They shouldn't do less humor. They should do better humor though. The sit-com esque writing really needs to get out. Same with the bad attempts at mimicing the Joss Whedon style back and forth (and I even dislike Joss Whedon's style as it is). A good tone comes from knowing when to be funny and when not to and in doing it right when it attempts to be funny or not. It's about picking the right emotions for what the context requires. Inquisition sometimes fell really, really flat for me when it was trying to be hearty and endearing, like it felt forced becuase BioWare thought they could just do what they did with Citadel DLC but with a cast you didn't know half as well.
They should also try to be more honest to what visual style or atmosphere they use. DA:I seemed to try to mature the visual identity of Dragon Age from the somewhat simple style used in DA:O and DA2 into a more Game of Thrones appeal with more realistic skintones and human anatomy, realistic looking armor and buildings etc. but on the side of that attempt to make it look more mature they retained the writing style and silly moments of comedy, the occasional one-sided evil characters too, which just didn't work as well. Florianne, Erimond and Corypheus in particular were really, really bad villain characters because they're so openly "ha-ha" like making jokes to the audience at their own evil plans or abilities. That was super unfunny. Every time they did stuff like that I just shook my head at the game.
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Post by azarhal on Apr 26, 2017 18:04:46 GMT
So, again, I'm asking where the light hearted comedy is occuring. Dorian's snark to cover up his drunken depression? Sera's ignorance and loud mouth she uses to hide her fear? Leliana going completely off the deep end to deal with her grief? Judging a box and sending it to prison and a cheese shield. The camp is mostly limited to Corypheus being over the top. The rest is just inquisitor/party members being snarky to each others. When you compare that to Arl Howe death scene in DAO (pastiche with Tim Curry imitating Tim Curry) which isn't the most ridiculous/funny moment at the wrong time in the game, DAI is a very serious game. Even MEA, despite its "lighter tone", doesn't come close to BG1, BG2, KoTOR, Jade Empire or DA2 in term of camp/comedic moments outside Liam's loyalty mission. The OP already got his wish really.
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Post by phoray on Apr 26, 2017 18:07:23 GMT
phoray : I think unintentional (or rather poorly applied) comedy is the worst kind of comedy. What plot there is to Inquisition centers around Corypheus. Such a narrative is impossible to take seriously, likely because not even the devs seemed able to do so. Coryfish is a joke, and everyone in your team will let you know as much. You see a similar problem, in a smaller scale, with Whatsherface the Countess in the ball sequence, who you even get to sentence-while-a-corpse-in-a-box-ha-ha-so-funny or make her your jester because giggles. Cory is actually causing problems. Despite the fact that he is doomed to lose to you, the protaganist, he causes horrible damage to a lot of people, and that shouldn't be glossed over just because he loses. - Blows up a conclave which included a Leader that may have actually guided Southern Thedas in a good direction.
- He sought out Bianca to get access to the Thaig and spread Red Lyrium over the surface of Thedas along with the mining for more destroys an entire town.
- Venatori killing the Tranquil for their skulls.
- Degrading the image of the Grey Wardens in a pretty significant way, which leads to an implied Civil War.
- Totally willing to risk the "Vessel"s soul to get a key to the Fade
- Totally killed a bunch of Ancient elves to get access to that key
- Let's not forget that he be one of the very magisters that released the Blight on the world
On top of that, he is a major destructive distraction from the true villain in your very party- Solas. He doesn't talk a good talk, his blindness for power isn't tempered with anything particularly sympathethtic, but he was a man of the times he was raised in- when Tevinter was at it's mightiest. And underscores Dorian's point about how his countrymen need to change.
I don't respect Cory, he never frightened me a moment after the Haven thing was resolved, but I respect his part in the plot. And I can't remember anyone mocking Cory in the party except Sera, and that's to cover up her fear.
The Jester thing is weird, I've never done it. And I thought that was just an opportunity for spite, not humor.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 26, 2017 18:09:57 GMT
No, there was some seriously lame attempts at humor throughout. The Avvar guy threatening the Inquisition with a camera cut outside the wall showing us how the goats were thrown at the wall for example. Josephine taking you to some entertainment in Trespasser DLC with "womp-womp-womp, badum-tssss" music to cue when it's supposed to be hilarious. The humor in DA:O and DA2 whenever it was there, including camp came from the writing primarily and the voice delivery. There were no external cues yelling "LAUGH NOW!" at you and no awkward pauses in an exchange to allow for can-laughter.
Corypheus is just lame. It's the easiest word for him that comes to mind. It comes from just how little the game takes him seriously and how ridiculously off the power balance is. He could be Mr. Bean for all I cared and it would've had the same effect. He's a ramblign idiot who never does anything right and gets kicked his ass like Sonic the hedgehog would kick Robotnik every time he shows up because Inquisitor is a fucking doe-eyed cartoon hero with no depth.
Granted, the Hero of Ferelden was also a mute Link-like hero and he also just grows and grows in power but for the most part the world around him feels bigger than him most of the game and Loghain's schemes got in his way in a slightly more effective way than Corypheus did because Loghain was depicted as a loser usurper who cowardly hired assassins to kill the Warden and Alistair and co. from his place of power while his fall was slowly closing in on him the entire game. Corypheus isn't even established properly as a threat because he has no definitive victory or betrayal. That makes it seem lame when the game then pulls the snark-card and the camp-card in the following scenes when Inquisitor fights him from when he kicks the Trebuchet handle to trick Corypheus to when they make that dumbass staredown in the final confrontation.
There were also other minute moments of facepalm worthy attempts at comedy, like the bear-puns in JoH... like... why? Why is that funny and why add that? Again, it's lame. Even Varric who used to be sharp sounds like he's not even trying in this game. "You've been through some weird shit Inquisitor! I'll write a story, its title will be 'this shit is weird'". Errr, okay? Ha-ha? What happened with the writing in this game on that front? It's the same writers except for Jennifer Hepler who I don't think contributed much to the comedy at all in DAO or DA2 because her characters were always whiny and depressing (and often good despite of it) but Mary Kirby for instance wrote Varric in both games but he just comes across as flat in DA:I when he attempts to make his usual cold-distanced jokes.
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Post by azarhal on Apr 26, 2017 18:17:33 GMT
No, there was some seriously lame attempts at humor throughout. The Avvar guy threatening the Inquisition with a camera cut outside the wall showing us how the goats were thrown at the wall for example. Josephine taking you to some entertainment in Trespasser DLC with "womp-womp-womp, badum-tssss" music to cue when it's supposed to be hilarious. The humor in DA:O and DA2 whenever it was there, including camp came from the writing primarily and the voice delivery. There were no external cues yelling "LAUGH NOW!" at you and no awkward pauses in an exchange to allow for can-laughter. DAO has a lot of "pause, laugh now" moments, usually with a full face camera pan. I know, I'm replaying it and they stick out a lot more than I remember...
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 26, 2017 18:25:46 GMT
No, there was some seriously lame attempts at humor throughout. The Avvar guy threatening the Inquisition with a camera cut outside the wall showing us how the goats were thrown at the wall for example. Josephine taking you to some entertainment in Trespasser DLC with "womp-womp-womp, badum-tssss" music to cue when it's supposed to be hilarious. The humor in DA:O and DA2 whenever it was there, including camp came from the writing primarily and the voice delivery. There were no external cues yelling "LAUGH NOW!" at you and no awkward pauses in an exchange to allow for can-laughter. DAO has a lot of "pause, laugh now" moments, usually with a full face camera pan. I know, I'm replaying it and they stick out a lot more than I remember... Maybe it had more than I recall (I played it just before 2017) but it was balanced out by how gloomy and dark the game would otherwise be. Inquisition has some good vibes in the Haven parts and the first few hours of being at Skyhold but then it kind of loses its way and I think in part it's becuase there's not enough dread or moments of failure, sacrifice or anything that makes you feel the weight of what is happening to make jokes seem like actual relief. I would even say the combat of DA:O helped establish that. You'd be super into the adrenaline rush and sense of danger of failing which made it all the more satisfying to exit that combat encounter unscathed, then enter Redcliffe Castle and see Arl Eamon dancing under a demon's spell. Whooh, I was so serious and occasionally frustrated at the game in the last hour that little humorous moment was exactly what I needed. Something just happens to DA:I after you get to Skyhold where it starts to feel generic and lame and every time there's another comedic relief moment it just feels even more so. I think the Wicked Grace scene in particular was just fail. "Aah, look at how endearing and good friends they are." For whatever reason it just didn't feel earned to me, and then Sera under the table is the game going " oh you, Sera". BioWare were smelling their own farts with this game just as they are with Andromeda's cast and that Movie Night part.
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Post by kalreegar on Apr 26, 2017 18:41:51 GMT
yes... all considered the amount of humor is ok but some characters sounds like clinical idiots. sera and hardin and were insufferable. imo.
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