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Post by Gwydden on Apr 26, 2017 18:50:18 GMT
- Blows up a conclave which included a Leader that may have actually guided Southern Thedas in a good direction: he kills a bunch of people we've never met before off-screen. This is standard setting up the conflict. Standard villain stuff.
- He sought out Bianca to get access to the Thaig and spread Red Lyrium over the surface of Thedas along with the mining for more destroys an entire town: standard villain stuff.
- Venatori killing the Tranquil for their skulls: off-screen to show how eeeeeeevil they are.
- Degrading the image of the Grey Wardens in a pretty significant way, which leads to an implied Civil War: standard villain stuff. Loghain did it better.
- Totally willing to risk the "Vessel"s soul to get a key to the Fade: standard villain stuff.
- Totally killed a bunch of Ancient elves to get access to that key: we spent the entire game killing people for our own self-righteous reasons.
- Let's not forget that he be one of the very magisters that released the Blight on the world: accident, and barely explored at that.
On top of that, he is a major destructive distraction from the true villain in your very party- Solas. (Hence the problem. Revealing a lame villain was just a distraction all along doesn't make him any less lame.) He doesn't talk a good talk, his blindness for power isn't tempered with anything particularly sympathethtic, but he was a man of the times he was raised in- when Tevinter was at it's mightiest. And underscores Dorian's point about how his countrymen need to change. (Tevinter did nothing the Ancient Romans didn't do, and while they would seem horrible people to us because of culture shock, said Romans weren't mustache twirling caricatures.)
I don't respect Cory, he never frightened me a moment after the Haven thing was resolved, but I respect his part in the plot. And I can't remember anyone mocking Cory in the party except Sera, and that's to cover up her fear. (My point is that no one takes him seriously. People express fear of the Breach or the end times, not Corypheus. What makes a good villain is not the evil stuff they do; I'm guessing we've all consumed enough fiction so that villains doing bad things is kind of unimpressive. Villains doing good things, heroes doing bad things, and people in general doing questionable things for compelling reasons is a much bigger draw.)
What I'm getting at is not that we need more grimdark. I don't care for grimdark; I just think that for a story to be good it needs to take itself with some degree of seriousness. This applies even to good comedies. The conflicts in Inquisition are half-baked, likely because they are meant to contextualize the rise of the Inquisitor and his organization (an uninspired Chosen One ego trip) more than serve as, y'know, genuine conflicts. You are completely right to point out that it is all a distraction for the Solas plot, but if that is the really important, really good storyline, why not skip straight to it instead of weakening it with a glorified dress rehearsal? More pertinently, I would like to point out that ever since Dragon Age: Origins I wanted to visit Orlais in a Dragon Age game. Leliana's stories were largely responsible. When we finally went there, part of the reason I was disappointed was the game's refusal to take the country and culture seriously for a second. The aforementioned Countess Whatsherface was symptomatic of that as well. That's my problem: I don't get the impression the devs were taking Inquisition very seriously. "Well, we need to make a game, but we don't actually feel like putting any thought into this until the DLCs, at least. So let's just go with a run-of-the-mill monomyth as told by Josh Whedon. Oh, some of you have interesting ideas? Great! We'll put them in the war table minigame or hide them away in codex entries. Y'know, as far from the actual game as possible!" I apologize for my directness, but this game...
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Post by Iddy on Apr 26, 2017 19:23:02 GMT
DAO has a lot of "pause, laugh now" moments, usually with a full face camera pan. I know, I'm replaying it and they stick out a lot more than I remember... Maybe it had more than I recall (I played it just before 2017) but it was balanced out by how gloomy and dark the game would otherwise be. Inquisition has some good vibes in the Haven parts and the first few hours of being at Skyhold but then it kind of loses its way and I think in part it's becuase there's not enough dread or moments of failure, sacrifice or anything that makes you feel the weight of what is happening to make jokes seem like actual relief. I would even say the combat of DA:O helped establish that. You'd be super into the adrenaline rush and sense of danger of failing which made it all the more satisfying to exit that combat encounter unscathed, then enter Redcliffe Castle and see Arl Eamon dancing under a demon's spell. Whooh, I was so serious and occasionally frustrated at the game in the last hour that little humorous moment was exactly what I needed. Something just happens to DA:I after you get to Skyhold where it starts to feel generic and lame and every time there's another comedic relief moment it just feels even more so. I think the Wicked Grace scene in particular was just fail. "Aah, look at how endearing and good friends they are." For whatever reason it just didn't feel earned to me, and then Sera under the table is the game going " oh you, Sera". BioWare were smelling their own farts with this game just as they are with Andromeda's cast and that Movie Night part. That is an odd rule you're establishing. Comedy is only expected be funny, not a tool for emotional comfort. Now, if you're only arguing that it didn't get a laugh out of you, that's understandable. I think the Solas storyline benefits from how long his secret lasted. The player is given the time to see him as a companion, which increases the big reveal's impact.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 26, 2017 19:39:46 GMT
My take on whether the humor is funny or not is subjective. When I talk about whether it's effective I intended to talk specifically about the use of comedic relief and contributing to the tone of the story. You cannot write Lord of the Rings and insert practical jokes every time the characters aren't saying anything that moves the plot along. It's destructive to the emotional pull of the story and the comedy becomes ineffective. If you use it in the appropriate times it's good comedic relief. Those moments may be created on a whim by the writers when it happens because they have good taste and know that it would really add to the story to write something lighthearted after a dark and serious section. It can also be in bad taste and they'll add an overabundance of jokes or be too dry and never have anything but serious conversations. It's a balance that needs to deliberately created somehow and I think Inquisition doesn't do that balance well at all because too often the story is too neutral or too optimistic and then the comedy falls flat because the timing isn't appropriate. That is why it becomes unfunny, like with the bear-puns. It's already not taking itself overly seriously and then the bear puns turn the DLC story into an outright cheese-fest.
The reason you have terms like "tongue in cheek" for certain writing style of quippy writing and pulpy Han Solo moments is because that style is memorable and effective and it has a certain... well, style of humor it applies where the story can be relatively gritty and sometimes even edgy but then the characters have smart lines in between or offensive language used in the right moments to make it funny in a "cool" way.
Basically you can do whatever you want of course, but if you don't think about how you employ your humor in the writing you may risk falling flat like Inquisition does in a lot of places. It's not considerate enough and I know I'm not the only one who thought it stood out for that. I've read several others who probably don't care about BioWare games anymore say that they felt embarrassed while playing this game during the "comedic" scenes. You can subjectively like it as well as you can subjectively dislike it. All I'm saying is that you can make a case for how Inquisition's humor is often ill fitting because the relief isn't balanced out with proper intrigue or story beats worth of emotional investment.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 19:50:23 GMT
Honestly, save for the goats, I can't recall comedic air in Inquisition. I was mostly bored. Ryder is all funny guy/gal all the time, and so is Hawke if you let him. But the Inquisitor? You wish...
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Post by thats1evildude on Apr 26, 2017 21:23:19 GMT
Jim Sterling did a video a long time ago about it's necessary to have moments of levity to make the tragic moments actually feel tragic. If your main character is a mope, him getting mopier doesn't resonate.
About the only bit of silliness I don't care for is the food-themed weaponry, like the cheese wheel shield or the glazed ham mace. That's a bit too silly for my taste. I either sell or don't loot those.
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Post by thats1evildude on Apr 26, 2017 21:25:46 GMT
Honestly, save for the goats, I can't recall comedic air in Inquisition. I was mostly bored. Ryder is all funny guy/gal all the time, and so is Hawke if you let him. But the Inquisitor? You wish... The Inquisitor can be very funny.
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Apr 26, 2017 21:46:25 GMT
I like humor at the right time and place but I also like it when a game takes itself seriously. Time and place for everything and moderation for everything.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 21:51:13 GMT
@that1evildude
I have not seen this scene, but imo it's more of an exception confirming the rule. Shepard is overall grim, Ryder is mostly cheerful, Hawke can be earnest, snarky or angry... the Inquisitor is reserved and mellow for most of the story save for a brief interlude of catching up with the companions in the beginning of Trespasser.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 26, 2017 21:57:45 GMT
Honestly, save for the goats, I can't recall comedic air in Inquisition. I was mostly bored. Ryder is all funny guy/gal all the time, and so is Hawke if you let him. But the Inquisitor? You wish... The Inquistor can be funny. Like Hawke with Ella.
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Post by thats1evildude on Apr 26, 2017 22:15:23 GMT
"I call for rehabilitation! The skull shall do public theatre about the evils of evil! I also judge the box: an end table for orphans!"
Alix's voice totally cracks when saying "box." 😁
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 26, 2017 22:27:59 GMT
So Bioware games are known for their snarky, sarcastic, often Whedonesque sense of humor, but I'm wondering if that humor hasn't become overplayed to the point of actively hurting the stories that Bioware wants to tell by deflating their villains and taking the stakes out of the situation; if the characters in game aren't taking the situations they're in seriously, then why should we? Now I personally think you need a certain amount of levity in a story to add a human quality to it because otherwise it can paradoxically become silly by just how dour and serious it is, but at the same time I think Bioware would do well to dial the humor back a few notches in the next Dragon Age game. But I'm just one man and that's just one man's opinion, which is why I made the poll. Let's let the PCs have their fun. I mean, they're dealing with potential apocalypses. If I was there, and I was taking it seriously, I'd go insane.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 23:23:44 GMT
Yep, Inquisitor can be funny, just like Bhaalspawn had that one reply in Baldur's gate 1 that he comes from a magic country of frolicking naked nymphs, but he is certainly not consistently so, he is more consistently reserved. Which is fine for one game. I am hoping for a different tone for the next. If it is not funny, that's fine. I would not even mind if it were a screaming and angry Berserker voice as one emotional option. 'Cause why not. Never seen it in a game. Well, some evil responses in SWTOR were voiced that way, but a constantly PO'd at the world mood throughout the game? It could be funny too, and ina different way than ye cute Ryder puppy.
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Post by azarhal on Apr 27, 2017 1:46:07 GMT
"I call for rehabilitation! The skull shall do public theatre about the evils of evil! I also judge the box: an end table for orphans!" Alix's voice totally cracks when saying "box." The youtube comments are educative for once. Apparently, judging remains was done in ancient times...
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Post by thats1evildude on Apr 27, 2017 3:02:57 GMT
"I call for rehabilitation! The skull shall do public theatre about the evils of evil! I also judge the box: an end table for orphans!" Alix's voice totally cracks when saying "box." The youtube comments are educative for once. Apparently, judging remains was done in ancient times... Indeed! There was one such famous trial called the Cadaver Synod. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_SynodAnimal trials have also occurred, so the judgment of Storvacker isn't even that unusual. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_trial
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 5:26:09 GMT
I'm probably the wrong person to answer this query, because my favorite codex entry in Inquisition is the incomplete limerick you find in the Emerald Graves. I found the humor in DA:I fairly balanced. I thought the only things that maybe got out of hand were the cheese wheels and the occasional top hat, which I disliked more as an anachronistic/out of place item than anything else. I like the joke weapons though, especially Mark's Mangled Mace. While I enjoyed his characters, I am glad David Gaider has moved on. If only because his characterization is 80% snark with a few linguistic tics, and that gets tiresome. Even Cassandra has some snark when she's not being generally irritable. Although, with Weekes in charge... I hope you all like dark humor, massively over-complicated puns, and dad jokes.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 27, 2017 8:15:26 GMT
Although, with Weekes in charge... I hope you all like dark humor, massively over-complicated puns, and dad jokes. Anyone who wasn't one hundred percent done with this franchise after the "boneless women" line probably doesn't care about dark humor all that much.
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Post by kumazan on Apr 27, 2017 8:54:25 GMT
Nah, DA is fine on this front. I can understand people not getting into ME:A's tone after such a big change from the OT, but I think DA has been relatively consistent, beyond what you think of the quality of the humour in each game.
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Post by Wildfire on Apr 27, 2017 19:51:24 GMT
I love DA2 the most out of BW games, partly because its completely over the top humour-wise. At times it feels as if the whole game was made completely tongue-in-cheek, and its absolutely fantastic. Being campy and weird doesn't stop the games from dealing with difficult issues successfully. DA2 is one of the most emotional games ever. MEA is also great, because Ryder has that whimsicality which the Inq and Shep both lack. So more funny lines and crazy characters, please! Btw, I totally agree with the one who spoke about Jade Empire earlier in the thread. That was utterly tasteless (and yet fabulous), and the recent BW games are like modern art compared to the cheesiness of JE. The amount of facepalms in that game...
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Post by thats1evildude on Apr 27, 2017 21:13:32 GMT
Oh Varric! Forgive me, my brother! I was just jealous of you! How could I ever compete with you for Mother's love?
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Post by isaidlunch on Apr 30, 2017 5:23:05 GMT
Yes they should, Bioware writers have absolutely no sense of humor. The only funny moments were the edgy evil choices and even those are gone now. If you find mean girl codex entries and cheese jokes funny then I have no respect for you.
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Post by Blaze on Apr 30, 2017 8:15:18 GMT
tone down the humor? what you talkin bout louis?
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Post by Blaze on Apr 30, 2017 8:15:56 GMT
Yes they should, Bioware writers have absolutely no sense of humor. The only funny moments were the edgy evil choices and even those are gone now. If you find mean girl codex entries and cheese jokes funny then I have no respect for you. you are dead inside, you know that right? =P
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Post by azuremazey on Apr 30, 2017 14:20:43 GMT
I agree as long as it's done right, I'd love more humor.
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Post by llandwynwyn on Apr 30, 2017 14:49:36 GMT
Humor isn't bad, as long as it doesn't interfere with scenes that don't require it or dominates the mood of the game.
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Post by Zemgus on May 3, 2017 20:13:32 GMT
Whatever they do, I hope DA4's protagonist is more serious than Ryder the professional clown. I hate it when humor is overused. It just stops being funny very quickly. Guardians of the Galaxy 2. is a very good example of this. It's also what kind of humor it is. I like dark, subtle humor - not people yelling over each other and making weird noises, etc.
I hope the overall tone of DA4 is darker than DAI. Humor is at it's best when it's used with consideration here and there.
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