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Post by rivverrabbit on Apr 29, 2017 16:56:39 GMT
It works for Skyrim but only because of the overall solo adventure that it is. I did not like going classless in MEA. I like how the classes work in DA. To me it is one of the most defining traits of my characters outside of their race and social status. That doesn't have to change, though. You could still have a warrior who is good at warrior stuff -- and the game can still acknowledge that, too. They'd just have to come up with more, more creative, and more catered ways to acknowledge and incorporate your character's identity into the story. Allowing players more options, though, without fundamentally changing the overall result is almost categorically a better design decision.
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Post by rivverrabbit on Apr 29, 2017 17:02:22 GMT
I like the current system. I doubt I would have as many playthroughs as I do now if the games featured classless. It's the same for ME1/2/3 I mentioned above that arbitrarily locking you off from simple abilities just to encourage playthroughs is a terrible design choice. The system I suggest still encourages replaying because you can never be or do everything. You can be a sword-and-shield templar in one playthrough, and an elemental mage in another; a stealthy, trap-laying archer, and then a merciless two-hander reaver. You're not able to do too many radically different things at once, and the more things you attempt the less mastery you'll find. On that end, it's literally no different than the current system. But what is different is that you can choose. That now, if you find you don't like something, you can respec into a completely different playstyle. You can build new and interesting specializations by combining skills that had until now been separated by an invisible barrier. You can build a spirit warrior, or a spirit rogue, and that could be two totally different playthroughs.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 29, 2017 17:12:34 GMT
I know what you're saying. I still prefer the current system. MEA does what you described. I like for DA4 not to copy that. It would be MEA except with swords, shields and staffs.
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Post by formerfiend on Apr 29, 2017 17:37:46 GMT
If racial selection was limited to human and/or elf and/or qunari, then there's no real contradiction with the lore with a classless system; the PC is a mage, period. It's just a matter of whether or not they put any effort into developing and utilizing their magic. Having magic doesn't mean you've ever learned to throw a spell. It's not dissimilar to the mass effect series; Shepard and the Ryder Twins are biotic from the word go. It's just if you pick a non-biotic class with Shepard - or if you start with a non-biotic specialization with Ryder, they simply haven't trained their latent biotic powers. I do still see the biggest problem being that dwarves are the odd ones out because short being exposed to Titans, however that works - I haven't played the Descent yet - they can't use magic, period, so you'd be blocking off a third of potential progression for them. And, again, I don't want to take dwarves out of the running for playability. Honestly I don't think it'd really be a problem at all. Dwarf players have been locked out of magic so far -- it wouldn't be any different here. If anything, dwarves just get more options this way. It's an intrinsic part of the setting, so it's not like it would come as a surprise. I really see it as a simple choice in the beginning: do you possess magic, or don't you? And that is way more important a question to the overall setting as well, so for once gameplay could tie in to the setting in a far more meaningful way. I see an inherent difference here in that under the current system, a dwarf warrior or a dwarf rogue is in no way disadvantaged compared to a rogue or warrior of any other class, but in a classless system a dwarf character would be locked out of one third of the character progression options that the other races would have. By definition that's taking away options, not giving them more.
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Post by arvaarad on Apr 29, 2017 17:54:41 GMT
Honestly I don't think it'd really be a problem at all. Dwarf players have been locked out of magic so far -- it wouldn't be any different here. If anything, dwarves just get more options this way. It's an intrinsic part of the setting, so it's not like it would come as a surprise. I really see it as a simple choice in the beginning: do you possess magic, or don't you? And that is way more important a question to the overall setting as well, so for once gameplay could tie in to the setting in a far more meaningful way. I see an inherent difference here in that under the current system, a dwarf warrior or a dwarf rogue is in no way disadvantaged compared to a rogue or warrior of any other class, but in a classless system a dwarf character would be locked out of one third of the character progression options that the other races would have. By definition that's taking away options, not giving them more. Also DA4 is likely to be in the Tevinter area, so being a magic user would benefit the player socially as well. Unless the protagonist starts out under the Qun, and magic users are forced to spend the entire game with their mouths stitched shut. Which, though it would lead to some amazing dialogue scenes, seems very unlikely.
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Post by rivverrabbit on Apr 30, 2017 15:48:59 GMT
I see an inherent difference here in that under the current system, a dwarf warrior or a dwarf rogue is in no way disadvantaged compared to a rogue or warrior of any other class, but in a classless system a dwarf character would be locked out of one third of the character progression options that the other races would have. By definition that's taking away options, not giving them more. Hmm, I don't think we're on the same page here, and I apologize if I wasn't being as clear as I could have been. Let me see if I can do a better job of explaining myself: While I liked what you said about the PC being a mage canonically in the way Shepard and Ryder are biotic, even if those abilities don't manifest, I don't agree with that interpretation here. In this suggested system (which maybe I could have done better to call a soft class system, rather than utterly classless), you'd pick from the three classes -- but the only time in which you're a mage is if you actually pick mage. If you pick warrior or rogue, you're not a mage whose powers haven't manifested -- you're straight up not a mage. If you pick mage, then and only then are you going to get dialogue options about being a mage, mana, any access at all to the magic trees, or any other gameplay changes that brings. A mage is an actual thing you can be in Dragon Age, but a rogue isn't -- that's a meaningless state of being in the setting (not the gameplay, obviously). Sera wasn't born a rogue, but Dorian was born a mage. So, in this system, if you pick to play as a dwarf, you can't pick mage. That's an inherent part of the setting. But here it's actually more open than what Dragon Age currently offers: if I pick a dwarf in Inquisition, I can't pick mage, but I still have to pick rogue or warrior -- and when I do, I am stuck with that. My rogue dwarf can never pick up a shield. In this soft class system, dwarves get more options than ever before (and so does anybody who picks warrior or rogue). Now, again, the disparity this creates is that anybody who picks rogue or warrior -- i.e., doesn't pick mage -- is exactly the same as the dwarf -- i.e., not a mage, at all. So the only players who are going to have access to all three class groups are players who pick mage -- BUT the point there is that while they've got far more power potential, it comes at a huge cost: they're a mage, in Thedas, which is not, traditionally, an entirely desirable position. Because of the hard class system, however, the gameplay has never borne that out, even though the setting says mages should face much more danger. They get on just fine (incidentally, they're also not really any more powerful than the other classes, which the setting also says isn't true). I don't think a soft class system would threaten the inclusion of dwarves as a playable race for two reasons: first, it's no different than what we have now, in regards to the setting -- dwarves can never be mages anyway. And two, it hasn't stopped them twice before (to be fair, it was a little iffy in Inquisition, but fan opinion has been made pretty clear at this point).
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Post by llandwynwyn on Apr 30, 2017 18:49:30 GMT
If they wanted due to plot reasons, they could make our next protagonist a mage* that can focus on physical combat, weapons (sword, archery etc) or pure magic. That's the only way I can see DA doing it, because it allows the illusion of a class system. They actually done something similar in DAO & DA2, with the arcane/spirit warrior. I'd be so fucking here for a magic archer. * OFC, no dwarves in the case. Unless it's titan touched or some special snowflake but plausible for a BioWare messiah protagonist.
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Post by formerfiend on Apr 30, 2017 19:13:03 GMT
Hmm, I don't think we're on the same page here, and I apologize if I wasn't being as clear as I could have been. Let me see if I can do a better job of explaining myself: While I liked what you said about the PC being a mage canonically in the way Shepard and Ryder are biotic, even if those abilities don't manifest, I don't agree with that interpretation here. In this suggested system (which maybe I could have done better to call a soft class system, rather than utterly classless), you'd pick from the three classes -- but the only time in which you're a mage is if you actually pick mage. If you pick warrior or rogue, you're not a mage whose powers haven't manifested -- you're straight up not a mage. If you pick mage, then and only then are you going to get dialogue options about being a mage, mana, any access at all to the magic trees, or any other gameplay changes that brings. A mage is an actual thing you can be in Dragon Age, but a rogue isn't -- that's a meaningless state of being in the setting (not the gameplay, obviously). Sera wasn't born a rogue, but Dorian was born a mage. So, in this system, if you pick to play as a dwarf, you can't pick mage. That's an inherent part of the setting. But here it's actually more open than what Dragon Age currently offers: if I pick a dwarf in Inquisition, I can't pick mage, but I still have to pick rogue or warrior -- and when I do, I am stuck with that. My rogue dwarf can never pick up a shield. In this soft class system, dwarves get more options than ever before (and so does anybody who picks warrior or rogue). Now, again, the disparity this creates is that anybody who picks rogue or warrior -- i.e., doesn't pick mage -- is exactly the same as the dwarf -- i.e., not a mage, at all. So the only players who are going to have access to all three class groups are players who pick mage -- BUT the point there is that while they've got far more power potential, it comes at a huge cost: they're a mage, in Thedas, which is not, traditionally, an entirely desirable position. Because of the hard class system, however, the gameplay has never borne that out, even though the setting says mages should face much more danger. They get on just fine (incidentally, they're also not really any more powerful than the other classes, which the setting also says isn't true). I don't think a soft class system would threaten the inclusion of dwarves as a playable race for two reasons: first, it's no different than what we have now, in regards to the setting -- dwarves can never be mages anyway. And two, it hasn't stopped them twice before (to be fair, it was a little iffy in Inquisition, but fan opinion has been made pretty clear at this point). Issue being that I don't think there's a way to balance that. I can't imagine a way that you make "being a mage" such a disadvantage that anyone considers it an even trade to give up a third of potential character progression to not have to deal with it while still keeping "being a mage" fun enough to play. The challenges that mage characters face that others don't are either going to be so tedious as to make playing a mage not worth it or so easily overcome as to not be considered obstacles at all. On the social side of things it, what? Takes away a few opportunities at persuasion checks? Makes them more difficult? Ignoring the likely reality that the game will probably be taking place in Tevinter where being a mage is more desirable than not - even if it isn't the free pass to high social status that a lot of people on the BSN think it is - that raises the question as to how people would know you're a mage if you hypothetically built your character to focus more on warrior/rogue things and only have a few token magical abilities. On the other side of things I guess you could put in a mechanic where if you play a mage demons regularly try to tempt/possess you and you have to fend them off but again, that's either going to be tedious or annoying, or it'll be desirable as it'll present more opportunities for character interaction and potential experience gain for quicker leveling. So, yeah. I don't see how you make it an even trade off.
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Post by rivverrabbit on Apr 30, 2017 20:46:22 GMT
Issue being that I don't think there's a way to balance that. I can't imagine a way that you make "being a mage" such a disadvantage that anyone considers it an even trade to give up a third of potential character progression to not have to deal with it while still keeping "being a mage" fun enough to play. The challenges that mage characters face that others don't are either going to be so tedious as to make playing a mage not worth it or so easily overcome as to not be considered obstacles at all. On the social side of things it, what? Takes away a few opportunities at persuasion checks? Makes them more difficult? Ignoring the likely reality that the game will probably be taking place in Tevinter where being a mage is more desirable than not - even if it isn't the free pass to high social status that a lot of people on the BSN think it is - that raises the question as to how people would know you're a mage if you hypothetically built your character to focus more on warrior/rogue things and only have a few token magical abilities. On the other side of things I guess you could put in a mechanic where if you play a mage demons regularly try to tempt/possess you and you have to fend them off but again, that's either going to be tedious or annoying, or it'll be desirable as it'll present more opportunities for character interaction and potential experience gain for quicker leveling. So, yeah. I don't see how you make it an even trade off. That's definitely an incredibly fair and accurate point. I think that would be the biggest hurdle to get over. But assuming we do go to Tevinter, where mages are treated a little bit differently, it would in this particular case maybe actually work to have the PC be a canonical mage -- which then would, as you've said, stiff dwarves, and I just don't see it happening anyway. I think it could be done, but I don't think it would be. It's too much of a departure. (Then again, I'm not even against the PC dwarf being magical, as rare as they are -- Bioware games aren't exactly strangers to the hero messiah complex; players characters get to be special as hell all the dang time with them) All that said, I wouldn't personally mind mages having to face additional challenges, because I love magic in this setting and in general. I mean, if I'm gonna play a videogame why not have magic? I can be nonmagical in real life. But that's just me; different strokes for different folks. Really, all I want is the ability to create my own spellsword, warrior-mage type character -- I want a sword, a shield, and some teleporting freezing spiriting magic, without having to squeeze into any one specialization. Ah, but that's why I have tabletop RPG's, I suppose. Though perhaps we can brainstorm other ideas for what challenges mages could face? There's the obvious, being treated negatively. Worse prices in shops, reduced inventory from merchants. Hm, that is tedious though. Maybe a system where the more magic you use, the greater the chance you'll have to endure a fade-based dream sequence whenever you next rest? No experience or rewards for surviving. Oh, but then if you failed you'd have to keep throwing yourself at it, and what if you got stuck? That'd be neat to have a few scripted ones, but being dynamic could frustrate people. You know, I'll think about it. It really does raise a bigger and very interesting question, though: is it possible for the devs to bridge the gap between gameplay and what we know of the setting, and should they try?
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2017 0:55:37 GMT
But why? Classes are cool though. Being a Warrior Mage In the DA verse also seems a little... OP for my liking too...
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Post by rivverrabbit on May 1, 2017 3:31:47 GMT
But why? Classes are cool though. Being a Warrior Mage In the DA verse also seems a little... OP for my liking too... You mean, like the arcane warrior, battlemage, spirit warrior, or knight enchanter -- all (functionally) warrior mages? I'm advocating the change not to create something drastically different, but to adjust the context. This is largely a setting about mages and non-mages, and the disparities between them -- but the gameplay is about three roughly balanced kinds of people totally divorced from the setting. Classes are cool when they serve a purpose (Look at Dungeon World as a great example), but Dragon Age's classes have always been exclusionary, and have always existed only to fulfill a fantasy quota -- in my opinion.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on May 1, 2017 14:07:14 GMT
I do like the way, you can make your own class in the Elder Scroll games, but I don't think, it would work lorewise in DA. While there wouldn't be any problems with cross class skills or talents between warriors and rogues, there is the problem with magic. In DA it is emphasised how magic is a talent, you are born with, you can't learn it through training like in ES or other games. So a mage might pick up warrior or rogue skills, but someone born without magic can not simply pick it during the game. I would love to see some cross classes though. Something like the arcane trickster from the D&D universe (basically a rogue/mage who focus on Illusions and such) or maybe a druid - a mix between the ranger rogue and the shapeshifter mage with some nature based spells. We already have the arcane warrior/knight enchanter as a mage/warrior hybrid - so basicallyI don't think completely classless would work in DA but class mixing could be fun Agreed whilst they can get away with it in ME because even in the ME trilogy we've had characters with skills from multiple disciplines like Garrus for example has both some soldier skills and some tech ones like Overload and Concussive shot so it's kind of already been established even before MEA came along that there were characters out there with branching skills. The only difference with MEA is that we can now create one of our own whereas before we couldn't we had to make do with whatever powers our class had. DA on the other hand is a totally different universe so there are a lot more restrictions like for example elves and mages are treated like second class citizens or at least they had been up until DAI which was why a lot of them felt and acted as they did. So really I don't think they would or even should change. By all means give us more specializations and powers to choose from but I think that's really as far as they should go. Also as you asid those that don' t have magic can't simply just learn t ouse it they have to be born with said talent in DA. Admittedly it's the same with biotics as either you have them or you don't. Like for example Ryder inherits the powers from their parents as it's been said that both Alec and Ellen were both biotics as it was Ellen's exposure to eezo that gave her the disease she suffered from as she was one of the first human biotics I think. But in Ryder's case it's been established in the lore in that Ryder is a biotic whether you choose those abilities or not is up to you wheras with Shep you could choose to be just a normal guy or girl so wasn't set in stone that you are a biotic. So it depends on how they manage the next game I think. But I don't see them going with a classless system as it's going to be harder to explain how a rogue can all of a sudden throw a fireball and all that. Especially as they'd then have to do it for every race in the game and explain how you have said abilities.
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Post by Walter Black on May 1, 2017 14:31:31 GMT
If they wanted due to plot reasons, they could make our next protagonist a mage* that can focus on physical combat, weapons (sword, archery etc) or pure magic. That's the only way I can see DA doing it, because it allows the illusion of a class system. They actually done something similar in DAO & DA2, with the arcane/spirit warrior. I'd be so fucking here for a magic archer. * OFC, no dwarves in the case. Unless it's titan touched or some special snowflake but plausible for a BioWare messiah protagonist. But you'd be forcing being a mage on players who want something different. I like mages, but I also like being a Badass Normal who can still take down gods .
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Post by kotoreffect3 on May 1, 2017 17:30:31 GMT
I know what you're saying. I still prefer the current system. MEA does what you described. I like for DA4 not to copy that. It would be MEA except with swords, shields and staffs. The last thing they need to do is go the MEA route. It is one reason they removed squad control in MEA. It doesn't even feel like squad based combat anymore. Now in DA we have always had more control over the squad than we did in ME admittedly and while unlikely we will ever lose squad control in a DA game like we did in MEA removing class restrictions is a step in that direction. I am sure when the devs made that decision their line of thought was since we had access to all the abilities there was no need to give the player access to squad commands to use their abilities. Now I am not saying that will happen to DA if they get rid of classes but I never thought that would happen to ME either.
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Post by Iakus on May 1, 2017 18:11:50 GMT
Classless systems can work. I mean, Fallout, Divinity: Original Sin, and Shadowrun Returns do it. But Bioware seems to have completely missed the point.
Classless systems are supposed to be about expanding options and giving us lots of possible builds. MEA was just the opposite of that. They "Streamlined" things to the point where choice was meaningless. All you need is primer, detonator, and defense power. Nothing else matters.
Heck they even took the squad part of squad combat away from us.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on May 1, 2017 21:16:03 GMT
I'd love to see DA go classless.
When the premise for Inquisition was released, I hoped that would be the result; with the veil torn, anyone could have magical ability.
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Post by Iakus on May 6, 2017 23:38:25 GMT
I'd love to see DA go classless. When the premise for Inquisition was released, I hoped that would be the result; with the veil torn, anyone could have magical ability. As I said, it CAN work. But not with the restrictive playstyle we've had.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on May 7, 2017 3:16:54 GMT
I think that the magic, sneaky, and tanking trees should all be restricted to their respective classes. We have specialisations for interesting alterations on the main class (arcane warrior etc) But weapon trees could be made classless. Like how warrior could use the dual-wield tree in DAO. At least it would be good if you could pick up any weapon that you have the stats for (as an aside: bring back choosing your own attribute points instead of it being automatic). I want weapon switching back and for each class to have access to both ranged and melee attacks. Warriors not being able to take out a bow/crossbow and fire at range in DA2 & DAI was atrocious. When I felt it was best tactically to stick to range they just had to sit there uselessly, or run off into the breach even though I'd selected the hold command.
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Post by alanc9 on May 7, 2017 7:05:16 GMT
My experience of classless systems in CRPGs hasn't been good. Even if you can overcome Swiss Army Knife syndrome, the balance is typically lousy. This is less of a problem in a TES game where the combat isn't very interesting to begin with, so you might as well just go for the exploits.
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Post by shroomofdoom on May 7, 2017 9:26:07 GMT
I have no objection to classless character systems in games, generally speaking, but I do prefer the class based system we see in DA. If the choice was mine, I'd stick with a class based system, simply because it adds flavour, character and context to the class we choose and the individual stories and interactions that come with those choices.
My concern being, that some of that unique individuality I get from seperate playthroughs, would be lost. My playthroughs from previous games, in which I played a warrior, for example, felt distinct and different, from my playthroughs as a mage, or a thief! I'd like to keep that distinction in hte narrative and interaction with the game world and events.
Like many, I liked Skyrim, but every character I created, felt like the same character, even when I took a different skill focus (IE Might/Magic/Stealth)
Sometimes, adding limitations, brings more to the table, than what it takes away. And providing no limitations, removes some fundamental decision making that, makes a character/game.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on May 8, 2017 16:43:07 GMT
I'd love to see DA go classless. When the premise for Inquisition was released, I hoped that would be the result; with the veil torn, anyone could have magical ability. As I said, it CAN work. But not with the restrictive playstyle we've had. My hope is obviously that the restrictive playstyle would go away.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on May 8, 2017 16:55:28 GMT
I have no objection to classless character systems in games, generally speaking, but I do prefer the class based system we see in DA. If the choice was mine, I'd stick with a class based system, simply because it adds flavour, character and context to the class we choose and the individual stories and interactions that come with those choices. My concern being, that some of that unique individuality I get from seperate playthroughs, would be lost. My playthroughs from previous games, in which I played a warrior, for example, felt distinct and different, from my playthroughs as a mage, or a thief! I'd like to keep that distinction in hte narrative and interaction with the game world and events. As I see it, a class is merely a collection of abilities. The charactet and background should all be determined independently from that. What a classless system does is give us more choices to make, both in regard to how we develop the character and how we deploy those skills in the world. I loved my sword & shield Rogue in DAO who refused to learn any offensive abilities.
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Post by Hrungr on May 8, 2017 21:31:14 GMT
For those RPGs where you're primarily a solo act (ES/Witcher/KoA/etc.), I prefer having a classless system. But for party-based games, I like having discrete classes and individuals filling specific roles.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on May 9, 2017 17:52:30 GMT
For those RPGs where you're primarily a solo act (ES/Witcher/KoA/etc.), I prefer having a classless system. But for party-based games, I like having discrete classes and individuals filling specific roles. The way to do that with a classless system is to severely discourage jack-of-all-trades builds. That way you still need different individuals filling specific roles, but we would get to decide which individuals go in which roles.
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Post by jadedragon on May 14, 2017 17:36:27 GMT
Considering class is such a heavy part of the actual Dragon Age lore and identity of dragon age itself I say no. Mages in dragon age is huge to the actual cultural landscape of the series certain countries mages rule others they are oppressed others they are like everyone else. Races like dwarves are locked out of this class also which is vital to the lore of that race.
With that being said I do believe that the class system needs a overhaul. For mages they need to go back to Origins and bring back the other schools of magic. There are 4 schools of magic one of which contains all the elements we play in DAI. Literally our Inquisitor was basically a specialist in Primal magic with a dash of whatever school spirit comes from. Warriors and Rogues do need a expansion in weapons. Crossbows for Rogues and maybe Spears for Warriors like how the Qunari use them vice versa to give the Warriors a range option and Rogues like a evasive tank option.
Now what I do actually propose Bioware do is utilize specializations as a means of introducing somewhat of a cross hybrid class. I fell like they walked the line a little bit with Tempest and Knight Enchanter but I think that we need to go back to having at least 2 or 3 specializations to increase the variety of builds, 2 is actually the perfect # for that. But also give each of the 3 class back to 4 to 6 specializations in total. Of the 4/6 advance class make at least of those a hybrid for each class. Example Rogues can have a class like Shadow or Tempest be the class that uses magic enchantments or Bards who use songs that can enchant thus being the Rogue/Mage class then we have Assassin as our traditional Rogue then make a Rogue Specialization that builds guard or plays more like a evasive tank being the Rogue/Warrior class. 4 specializations per class 2 a hybrid of the other two class respectfully and the other 2 are strictly your class. Kind of how Dragon Dogma does it but with one more extra class just for a different option to still play a pure warrior but different then the other pure warrior.
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