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Post by jjdxb on Mar 17, 2018 23:23:43 GMT
Without having read most of this thread... no. For me it's not a question of play styles and mechanical replayability
As others have said, if the system is truly classless, you're just a mage who may or may not have developed your magical talent. The problem with this is that there are too many in-game lore ramifications for possessing magic. This wasn't really a problem with biotics in the ME universe because by that point the biotic/non-biotic tensions had calmed down. But in DA? Where magic is such a contentious issue that the humans of Thedas are religiously and politically divided along geographic lines based almost solely on what role magic can play in society? Even in Tevinter, where possessing magic is a reliable ticket out of slavery and potentially into the halls of power? People will treat you like a mage even if you don't want to be, even if you don't use magic.
If they want to do it, it can only be done in Tevinter. But I'd rather they keep mage and non-mage separate.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Mar 29, 2018 19:15:25 GMT
Without having read most of this thread... no. For me it's not a question of play styles and mechanical replayability As others have said, if the system is truly classless, you're just a mage who may or may not have developed your magical talent. The problem with this is that there are too many in-game lore ramifications for possessing magic. This wasn't really a problem with biotics in the ME universe because by that point the biotic/non-biotic tensions had calmed down. But in DA? Where magic is such a contentious issue that the humans of Thedas are religiously and politically divided along geographic lines based almost solely on what role magic can play in society? Even in Tevinter, where possessing magic is a reliable ticket out of slavery and potentially into the halls of power? People will treat you like a mage even if you don't want to be, even if you don't use magic. If they want to do it, it can only be done in Tevinter. But I'd rather they keep mage and non-mage separate. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, this problem could be solved by making magical ability an expensive perk which can only be selected at level 1. The only potential complication is in how the game would handle that character's backstory, but I maintain the game shouldn't be writing our backstory for us anyway.
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Post by psychomegify on Mar 30, 2018 1:38:06 GMT
The only way i could see the series going classless would be if we started the game when the veil went down. Because then suddenly everyone has magic. I'd still think it'd be a good idea to have soft classes at the beginning or like a preset or something to show what your fighting style was prior.
This still probably doesnt help the dwarves though. Unless you have titan magic but idk how they could implement that without actually meeting a titan, since it'd be a bit weird for a new PC to suddenly be let in on this big secret at the get go. Especially if the main focus of the game isnt the titans.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 3, 2018 17:39:03 GMT
Without having read most of this thread... no. For me it's not a question of play styles and mechanical replayability As others have said, if the system is truly classless, you're just a mage who may or may not have developed your magical talent. The problem with this is that there are too many in-game lore ramifications for possessing magic. This wasn't really a problem with biotics in the ME universe because by that point the biotic/non-biotic tensions had calmed down. But in DA? Where magic is such a contentious issue that the humans of Thedas are religiously and politically divided along geographic lines based almost solely on what role magic can play in society? Even in Tevinter, where possessing magic is a reliable ticket out of slavery and potentially into the halls of power? People will treat you like a mage even if you don't want to be, even if you don't use magic. If they want to do it, it can only be done in Tevinter. But I'd rather they keep mage and non-mage separate. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, this problem could be solved by making magical ability an expensive perk which can only be selected at level 1. The only potential complication is in how the game would handle that character's backstory, but I maintain the game shouldn't be writing our backstory for us anyway. Problem is there'd have to be some major drawback to being a mage or else there's no real drawback to having magic AND a sword. At most, I'd say keep the classes, but potentially let us be able to work blood magic rituals, which can't be done in combat, but can be used at certain points in the game, which can alter the story.
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Post by ahglock on Apr 4, 2018 4:08:46 GMT
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, this problem could be solved by making magical ability an expensive perk which can only be selected at level 1. Yeah, this is certainly one way to do it (it's handled similarly in some tabletop RPGs, like Shadowrun for example), though in the context of a video game doing it via a perk is... quaint... We are much more likely to see branching paths during character generation. (meaning, similarly to how you choose gender and race, you also choose magic or not) Its a pretty good way if you nail the cost. Depending on edition shadowrun did a pretty good job or pretty bad job at it. Odd that you'd use that as an example. But given the skill tree method of dragon age I think just picking X number of skill trees at char gen would work and if you don't choose a magic tree you don't have access to magic even if you get to learn new skill trees later in the game. In recent games at least I don't feel that magic trees have been any more powerful than other trees so I'm not sure a perk is really necessary. If tehy go back to old school magic where it was more powerful, there could be a stage where you pick perks and you have to pick a magic perk or perks to ave magic wile other characters could take more generally useful perks to power up.
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Post by Vall on Apr 4, 2018 5:45:23 GMT
there's no real drawback to having magic AND a sword. What is the advantage of having both? You either use light armor to increase your magic capabilities and so you'd be squishy mage walking around melee range waiting for your head to get bashed in. Or you wear heavy armor so your magic is meh but you can take a hit. Granted if we do get magic more like in Origins with more buffs, debuffs and other supportive spells (as opposed to Inquisition's barriers, damage and more damage), that would make heavily armored support battlemage less meh, but pure mage support with pure mage tank would still likely be better than that, simply because your tank is actually made to be so and your support isn't in constant danger of death. Personally, I don't really need nor really want it to be more powerful than traditional classes, I just love the aesthetic and the fantasy of it and wish it was an option without having to mod it in.
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Post by cloud9 on Apr 5, 2018 21:56:40 GMT
The only way i could see the series going classless would be if we started the game when the veil went down. Because then suddenly everyone has magic. I'd still think it'd be a good idea to have soft classes at the beginning or like a preset or something to show what your fighting style was prior. This still probably doesnt help the dwarves though. Unless you have titan magic but idk how they could implement that without actually meeting a titan, since it'd be a bit weird for a new PC to suddenly be let in on this big secret at the get go. Especially if the main focus of the game isnt the titans. There's Sandal......
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Post by psychomegify on Apr 6, 2018 0:20:04 GMT
The only way i could see the series going classless would be if we started the game when the veil went down. Because then suddenly everyone has magic. I'd still think it'd be a good idea to have soft classes at the beginning or like a preset or something to show what your fighting style was prior. This still probably doesnt help the dwarves though. Unless you have titan magic but idk how they could implement that without actually meeting a titan, since it'd be a bit weird for a new PC to suddenly be let in on this big secret at the get go. Especially if the main focus of the game isnt the titans. There's Sandal...... Yes well Sandal is... Sandal. No one really knows what his deal is. (i'm pre sure hes connected to a titan but who knows)
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Post by phoray on Apr 6, 2018 18:03:52 GMT
Yes well Sandal is... Sandal. No one really knows what his deal is. (i'm pre sure hes connected to a titan but who knows) Sandal was a joke that took on a life of it's own. Gaider hated him, Weekes liked him and brought his existence back in Trespasser. PErsonally, I think he's connected to a sleeping titan. So not outright controlled by a Titan, but just a Dwarf that has the connection that others have lost.
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Post by phoray on Apr 6, 2018 18:05:27 GMT
Oh, I've already voted in this thread, but every time I see someone post in this thread, I just want to run in and be like, "Mages have to be mages with all the social gains and losses that that would mean."
Classless is not suitable in the world of Thedas.
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Post by Vall on Apr 6, 2018 19:03:09 GMT
Oh, I've already voted in this thread, but every time I see someone post in this thread, I just want to run in and be like, "Mages have to be mages with all the social gains and losses that that would mean." Classless is not suitable in the world of Thedas. As was said multiple times before, you could have sort of soft classless system, where your "class choice" would simply be a mage/non-mage, where mage would have access to magic skills while non-mage would not. And you could tie specialisation to those if you want to keep them. What's the point? From story perspective, there is already little distinction between warriors and rogues, plus you could give mages some access to melee trees (I still maintain there is no reason for mages not to be allowed to) This would serve to open up options and options are good
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Post by phoray on Apr 6, 2018 20:30:29 GMT
Oh, I've already voted in this thread, but every time I see someone post in this thread, I just want to run in and be like, "Mages have to be mages with all the social gains and losses that that would mean." Classless is not suitable in the world of Thedas. As was said multiple times before, you could have sort of soft classless system, where your "class choice" would simply be a mage/non-mage, where mage would have access to magic skills while non-mage would not. And you could tie specialisation to those if you want to keep them. What's the point? From story perspective, there is already little distinction between warriors and rogues, plus you could give mages some access to melee trees (I still maintain there is no reason for mages not to be allowed to) This would serve to open up options and options are good Depends how soft is done. It's not about battle differences. It's about how much I love and adore Dragon Age for noticing who I am. My gender,my class, my race. It also heavily increases replayability. Watch me play a rogue elf in Tevinter and have some Magister sneer at me. Only to play a mage human a second go round and him invite me out for drinks and a card game. I need the world to notice who and what I am. It makes me feel like I'm there. That the world cares who and what I am and reacts appropriately I don't even bother playing a biotic in MEA, I may as well be a sniper for all it matters.
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Post by Vall on Apr 6, 2018 20:51:43 GMT
As was said multiple times before, you could have sort of soft classless system, where your "class choice" would simply be a mage/non-mage, where mage would have access to magic skills while non-mage would not. And you could tie specialisation to those if you want to keep them. What's the point? From story perspective, there is already little distinction between warriors and rogues, plus you could give mages some access to melee trees (I still maintain there is no reason for mages not to be allowed to) This would serve to open up options and options are good Depends how soft is done. It's not about battle differences. It's about how much I love and adore Dragon Age for noticing who I am. My gender,my class, my race. It also heavily increases replayability. Watch me play a rogue elf in Tevinter and have some Magister sneer at me. Only to play a mage human a second go round and him invite me out for drinks and a card game. I need the world to notice who and what I am. It makes me feel like I'm there. That the world cares who and what I am and reacts appropriately I don't even bother playing a biotic in MEA, I may as well be a sniper for all it matters. The soft class would exist precisely for these story differences more so than the gameplay ones. I do love the game noticing what my character is as well, seeing my elven mage being treated differently from others is what kept me playing in Origins despite my dislike of its combat gameplay. At the same time, I do think the 3 class system (tank+2h, dw+bow, mage) is too restricting and rigid and going at least partially "classless" (or rather allowing overlap of some skill trees between classes) would loosen this, but it's just one way. Another way could making specialisations a lot more distinct rather than current slight bonus on top of your class. Each specialisation could give you multiple skill lines instead of just one, give you access to weapons and armor your base class does not have, give you comepletely new mechanics... And world could/should react to these more than with just one line. I'll admit, talking about classless is more of a case of throwing ideas at a wall and seeing what sticks with the goal of loosening the restrictive 3 class system. And the lack of biotic recognition dates essentially all the way to ME1. Being a biotic in ME verse is simply not as remarkable as being a mage is in DA.
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Post by Dabrikishaw on Apr 6, 2018 23:44:54 GMT
The current system is fine as it is. All we need to see are more specializations.
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Post by phoray on Apr 6, 2018 23:54:02 GMT
I'll admit, talking about classless is more of a case of throwing ideas at a wall and seeing what sticks with the goal of loosening the restrictive 3 class system. Why is it considered restrictive though? I've never thought it was the class system that made the fighting bad, it's the lack of fun implentation that is the issue. I want my Swordsman to be like Geralt without the Signs. Maybe a Templar can make barrier against magical attacks. I want my Archer Rogue to be like Aloy from HZD. The variety of traps should also be a Rogue benefit. I like Tempest Dual Wielder in DAI (because it felt like Cone of Cold to use the ice potion, and the time potion let me play healer to my companions) but also liked the one in DA2 for all the movement all over the field of battle on top The closest to a mage I loved so far is DAO's mage, with massive AOE spells, Blood Magic, as well as close range magic like cone of cold and Mind Blast. The ability to enhance my companions normal weapons. I guess I want the Strategy of complete AI control mixed with Action Based Gameplay and a Skill Wheel ala DAO, DA2, HZD, and The Witcher 2/3. But none of this has to do with classless and everything to do with implementation of the class.
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Post by cloud9 on Apr 7, 2018 22:54:57 GMT
Me personally I don't see nothing wrong having a classless system, it provides creativity and customize your character's abilities however you want. Instead of choosing a class and specializations and stick with it seems boring and inflexible in my opinion.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Apr 25, 2018 9:15:38 GMT
Problem is there'd have to be some major drawback to being a mage or else there's no real drawback to having magic AND a sword. I'd make the magic perk REALLY expensive. Think of a point system like GURPS, and have the magic perk consume 80% of your starting points.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Apr 25, 2018 9:17:53 GMT
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, this problem could be solved by making magical ability an expensive perk which can only be selected at level 1. Yeah, this is certainly one way to do it (it's handled similarly in some tabletop RPGs, like Shadowrun for example), though in the context of a video game doing it via a perk is... quaint... We are much more likely to see branching paths during character generation. (meaning, similarly to how you choose gender and race, you also choose magic or not) I still maintain that the purpose of a CRPG is to recreate the experience of playing a tabletop RPG, but without the need for other players. This has been my opinion for 30 years. I'm not changing it now.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Apr 25, 2018 13:13:00 GMT
I've always been more inclined to think Skyrim when the idea of classless RPG's come up, thanks. Honestly I don't think it's a bad idea - just because one is born with innate magical talent doesn't mean they put any effort into training and developing that magical talent and just because someone has innate magical talent doesn't mean they can't learn to swing a sword or shoot a bow. But the big hurtle to this is that dwarves can't be mages except through extraordinary circumstance. And I'm very much of the opinion that I do not want them to remove race options from the game again and adding in the contrived explanation for how a dwarf PC can use magic is clunky when done along side three other PC options that don't require it. When I played a mage in DA:O I could use a sword and could use light warrior armor, and a staff is used by people in real life like King Richard III (aka the Lionheart) characters like Robin Hood and Little John as much as they used a bow and a sword. It makes no sense why a mage can't use a sword (especially when you have the Knight-Enchanter specialty class in DA:I) and there are other mages that make reference to being able to use swords quite well like: Malcolm Hawke, that mage you chase down in JoH, and the mage class HoF.
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Post by Sumerian Physics on May 17, 2018 19:41:34 GMT
This would break the immersion of mage life too much for me and would feel disruptive to the lore. I can't support this idea
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Post by Heart on May 17, 2018 21:18:54 GMT
Personally, I'd like to see classes stay. If anything, I think it'd be nice to have more unique content/dialogue per class. There's usually plenty of unique dialogue for mages, so I wish there was more conversation options for rogues and warriors (different ones for each, I mean). In DA2 there's a quest where you can kill someone in a cutscene by throwing a dagger, and I'm pretty sure it's only available for a rogue. Just things like that. And maybe a few unique discussions for specializations too. Aside from when the companions in DAI comment on your chosen specialization, I can only think of one dialogue in the game thats unique depending on the specialization you took.
I like to switch up what I do on a new play through. Changing my class to experience new stuff is one of those things.
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Post by phoray on May 18, 2018 18:08:54 GMT
Heartyes to the game reacting to who I made my character to be! Class, religion, sexuality, and race! Down with anything where you may as well be an amorphous blob because you can do and be anything and therefore the game can't react to you. Ra Ra!
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Post by ProbeAway on May 19, 2018 10:24:20 GMT
Thing is, one of the reasons you select a class is because you’re playing a character that has some kind of past. When you chose to be a warrior Hawke, you were playing a character who had spent years honing their skill with the blade. When you picked a mage in Origins you had been studying at the Circle Tower. You were, to be blunt, playing a role.
It’s possible to do a classless RPG well if you create some kind of event at the beginning of the game that affects your character and makes the blank slate approach believable - e.g. Kingdoms of Amalur, which begins with your magical resurrection. Otherwise, it makes sense that your character already has some strengths and weaknesses.
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Post by mmoblitz on May 19, 2018 13:44:29 GMT
Hear me out. And try not to think of it too much in Mass Effect: Andromeda terms, either -- this idea is not exactly the same (so, like, no profiles). In fact, think of Dragon's Dogma here. You still select a class, which determines your starting stats (constitution, strength, dex, etc.). But any class can use any weapon, so long as they meet the basic stat requirements for that weapon. The higher your stat, the more effectively you can use weapons of that type (i.e., dex might affect critical hits even on heavy warhammers, but strength is going to be the big stat for that kind of weapon; dex is going to be important for double daggers with little reliance on strength, but a bow might rely on strength and dex both, because the pull strength gives you more damage and range). If there's a crafting system this would also provide some interesting versatility, because you could favor different stats in the weapon to suit your playstyle (again, a big, heavy bow that fires more slowly requiring higher strength, or a smaller, faster-firing bow relying more on dex). Moreover, this allows greater versatility in the gameplay, as players can do more even when playing within the confines of traditional class archetypes. Added to that, you could have a second "loadout," which you can switch to on the fly as the situation demands: an archer could switch to double daggers when an enemy closes, a sword-and-shield fighter could switch to a sword and shortsword/dagger (ala Duncan) when faced with mobs of light enemies, a crossbow user might switch to a hammer. As far as the abilities themselves, at every level you'd get points, as usual, to distribute, and each main tree (warrior, rogue, mage) would have smaller sub-trees of abilities (or just a huge smattering of abilities that each evolve on their own, this being not unlike Mass Effect). You'd also go back to getting stat points to invest as you see fit, ala DAO -- this system would just demand that level of stat control. So, a sword-and-shield warrior would be wise to get shield bash, of course, but they might also get a few duel-wield abilities, or other valuable passives. However, you'd still need to lean into your class archetype, if you wanted the higher-tier stuff (again like ME, certain abilities or upgrades might require so many points invested in that tree. But there wouldn't be profiles (there could, perhaps, be a separate section for passives, with new passives designed to support hybrid playstyles, these unlocking only with so many points in the two trees). Class specializations would require the heaviest dedication to a specific tree -- unlocking the reaver would require a lot of points invested in warrior abilities. But the neat thing here is that you could have as many specializations as you meet the requirements for (which, realistically, is only going to be a couple or a few, and fully upgrading more than one or two is going to require sacrificing a lot of other things, or at least a very long time spent leveling). All classes would need to have stamina, in case they use those abilities, but only mages would have mana, and only if you chose mage could you choose mage abilities. Now, at first blush, a min-maxer looking to be as efficient or as powerful as possible is going to conclude that you should always pick mage -- even if you want to be a stealthy rogue, you would just skew your stats toward that, having magic abilities as an option (there would be certain magic abilities or, at the very least, passives that would be extremely desirable or would synergize well with probably any playstyle). But this is Dragon Age, and being a mage ain't no picnic. Choosing to play a mage would need to have consequences as well -- story consequences, like certain people straight-up not trusting you, or even being hostile toward you. Moreover, the more magic you use or points you have invested, the more likely you are to attract spirits -- maybe when you rest there's even a chance you'll have to deal with dreaming in the fade, and the risk of possession (after all, it's such a scary but real possibility to mages in this setting, but player mages don't really ever have to deal with it outside a few plot points). Point being, there would have to be some ways to temper being a mage -- and I've no doubt they could conjure some creative but still enjoyable ones. So, what do you think? Could it work in Dragon Age? Again, while I made some comparisons to ME Andromeda, also think of Dragon's Dogma, which offered a surprisingly fantastic, deep, and robust gameplay system that was (functionally) classless -- and, in the end, not that different from Dragon Age. While I wouldn't mind some of your suggestions, It would end up with far more complexity than we had previously which would probably been fine for most of us here, but the trend in Bioware games of late if simplification. What your suggesting wouldn't lend itself to that trend. I could also see problems with this type of system in MP mode. You know they are going have one and to keep it simple, they will likely use the same mechanics for both . Your system would work fine in SP, but MP would bring a whole new set of problems.
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mmoblitz
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: mmoblitz
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mmoblitz
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mmoblitz
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
mmoblitz
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Post by mmoblitz on May 19, 2018 14:03:25 GMT
If done right not necessarily opposed, though I have not seen evidence bioware can do it right. Hopefully, they learned from games like Skyrim who has successfully created a hybrid classless system. The only thing successful about skyrim is the ability to mod it into the game you want to play. If I had only every played it on console, I would have done one PT and would have never touched it again. On PC though, I have over 2500+ hrs into it and it doesn't even resemble the original game anymore. Modding it the biggest reason skyrim reached the popularity it has. I very much doubt It's the classless system. Skyrim isn't a good example anyway. It's more of a sandbox game with a main story and is a game where exploration is key to enhancing your experience. The DA franchise isn't that, though they did lean a little more that way with DAI.
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