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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 19, 2018 17:16:47 GMT
This would break the immersion of mage life too much for me and would feel disruptive to the lore. I can't support this idea How would it do that? The "mage" property (unlike the OP, I wouldn't call it a "class", but it has the same net effect) can be like race, and you have to pick it to unlock the spell skill trees. No violation to lore.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 19, 2018 17:25:48 GMT
Thing is, one of the reasons you select a class is because you’re playing a character that has some kind of past. When you chose to be a warrior Hawke, you were playing a character who had spent years honing their skill with the blade. When you picked a mage in Origins you had been studying at the Circle Tower. You were, to be blunt, playing a role. It’s possible to do a classless RPG well if you create some kind of event at the beginning of the game that affects your character and makes the blank slate approach believable - e.g. Kingdoms of Amalur, which begins with your magical resurrection. Otherwise, it makes sense that your character already has some strengths and weaknesses. Setting aside how dumb it is to force role selection before you know anything about the story or characters -- yet another pointless holdover from D&D -- we don't know everything about all the roles possible in lore yet. We haven't seen every culture, and we don't know what previous restrictions might be relaxed, and what new restrictions might be imposed. The Circle is not the end-all and be-all of mage training in the world, particularly now that we know a bit more of what really happened in elven history (for some value of "really"). Not to mention that in some post-Trespasser futures, there is no Circle. I understand that you were using the Circle v.v. DAO as an example, I'm simply countering that example with how DA4 opens up many more possibilities for mage abilities. And when you throw in the possibility of some parts of the Veil being torn down, causing localized enhancement of mage abilities in people who wouldn't have been considered mage-able otherwise, there's even more reason to speculate that a class-restrictive character system makes even less sense in DA4. It would be f-ing awesome if, in Act II of the game, every player would have the option of unlocking some part of the mage skill tree for their character, regardless of what role template they started with. Thanks, Solas!
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Post by ProbeAway on May 22, 2018 13:09:27 GMT
Thing is, one of the reasons you select a class is because you’re playing a character that has some kind of past. When you chose to be a warrior Hawke, you were playing a character who had spent years honing their skill with the blade. When you picked a mage in Origins you had been studying at the Circle Tower. You were, to be blunt, playing a role. It’s possible to do a classless RPG well if you create some kind of event at the beginning of the game that affects your character and makes the blank slate approach believable - e.g. Kingdoms of Amalur, which begins with your magical resurrection. Otherwise, it makes sense that your character already has some strengths and weaknesses. Setting aside how dumb it is to force role selection before you know anything about the story or characters -- yet another pointless holdover from D&D -- we don't know everything about all the roles possible in lore yet. We haven't seen every culture, and we don't know what previous restrictions might be relaxed, and what new restrictions might be imposed. The Circle is not the end-all and be-all of mage training in the world, particularly now that we know a bit more of what really happened in elven history (for some value of "really"). Not to mention that in some post-Trespasser futures, there is no Circle. I understand that you were using the Circle v.v. DAO as an example, I'm simply countering that example with how DA4 opens up many more possibilities for mage abilities. And when you throw in the possibility of some parts of the Veil being torn down, causing localized enhancement of mage abilities in people who wouldn't have been considered mage-able otherwise, there's even more reason to speculate that a class-restrictive character system makes even less sense in DA4. It would be f-ing awesome if, in Act II of the game, every player would have the option of unlocking some part of the mage skill tree for their character, regardless of what role template they started with. Thanks, Solas! I don’t disagree that the story/world could open up different possibilities, but I’m not really seeing how what you say counters my point. You are still stepping into the shoes of an adult character who has has some kind of existence and experience up to that point. Choosing a starting class (whether hard or soft) is simply a way of recognising that. Pointing out that a major story event can potentially open up more fluid character development options is effectively what I was getting at - a story related event that makes this kind of flexibility logical.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on May 29, 2018 8:21:42 GMT
I really hope DA4 doesn't go classless. I didn't care much for it in MEA where I could have virtually every possible skill and biotic power if I simply did an NG+. Don't really want to see a rogue/mage/warrior. Over in ME I tend to play biotics but in DA my preference is for rogues. Don't want that ruined.
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Post by colfoley on May 29, 2018 23:52:23 GMT
I really hope DA4 doesn't go classless. I didn't care much for it in MEA where I could have virtually every possible skill and biotic power if I simply did an NG+. Don't really want to see a rogue/mage/warrior. Over in ME I tend to play biotics but in DA my preference is for rogues. Don't want that ruined. why would it be ruined? Granted it was frustrating when my tech warrior who never used any biotic abilities was referenced as a biotic but I never used any ability I did not want to. For RP purposes.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 30, 2018 2:44:09 GMT
I really hope DA4 doesn't go classless. I didn't care much for it in MEA where I could have virtually every possible skill and biotic power if I simply did an NG+. Don't really want to see a rogue/mage/warrior. Over in ME I tend to play biotics but in DA my preference is for rogues. Don't want that ruined. why would it be ruined? Granted it was frustrating when my tech warrior who never used any biotic abilities was referenced as a biotic but I never used any ability I did not want to. For RP purposes. Right, so why even have the mix and match style? It's supposed to be RP so let it be that way.
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Post by colfoley on May 30, 2018 3:47:53 GMT
why would it be ruined? Granted it was frustrating when my tech warrior who never used any biotic abilities was referenced as a biotic but I never used any ability I did not want to. For RP purposes. Right, so why even have the mix and match style? It's supposed to be RP so let it be that way. Fair enough. All I am saying is if you want to have a limit, for whatever reason, nothing really is stopping you. It would have been very interesting for my Inquisitor in DAI if she could get access to the 'war horn' ability given what she was and the rajectory of her arc. Why can't Rogues blow a horn? Either way though depending on how they go I still really want 'Assassin' abilities as over powered as they were in DA 2. That's what I really want to see.
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Post by ApocAlypsE on May 30, 2018 9:09:10 GMT
I don't think classless works in DA because of the nature of magic in Thedas. The world heavily separates between those who are capable of doing magic and those who aren't. Besides, there is a lesser replay value in a classless system I think. I believe that 3 classes with a bunch of subclasses for each is the way to go.
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Post by Vall on Jun 1, 2018 9:37:48 GMT
why would it be ruined? Granted it was frustrating when my tech warrior who never used any biotic abilities was referenced as a biotic but I never used any ability I did not want to. For RP purposes. Right, so why even have the mix and match style? It's supposed to be RP so let it be that way. Why even have it? Because while classless system doesn't stop you from playing pure mage/warrior/rogue character, mage/warrior/rogue system is stopping me from creating my mage-who-also-uses-some-melee-skills character. Of course, you could do that by expanding class roster to add mage/warrior, mage/rogue, warrior/rogue classes (like Vanguard, Sentinel and Infiltrator) or by adding subclasses that allow you do stuff like that, but classless still allows you to more or less create a unique skillset for your character.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 1, 2018 17:09:42 GMT
Right, so why even have the mix and match style? It's supposed to be RP so let it be that way. Why even have it? Because while classless system doesn't stop you from playing pure mage/warrior/rogue character, mage/warrior/rogue system is stopping me from creating my mage-who-also-uses-some-melee-skills character. Of course, you could do that by expanding class roster to add mage/warrior, mage/rogue, warrior/rogue classes (like Vanguard, Sentinel and Infiltrator) or by adding subclasses that allow you do stuff like that, but classless still allows you to more or less create a unique skillset for your character. I guess but in MEA I end up with a Ryder who has every ability after NG+. It's one of the things I don't like and so would prefer to avoid it with a classless system.
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Post by Vall on Jun 2, 2018 6:47:01 GMT
Why even have it? Because while classless system doesn't stop you from playing pure mage/warrior/rogue character, mage/warrior/rogue system is stopping me from creating my mage-who-also-uses-some-melee-skills character. Of course, you could do that by expanding class roster to add mage/warrior, mage/rogue, warrior/rogue classes (like Vanguard, Sentinel and Infiltrator) or by adding subclasses that allow you do stuff like that, but classless still allows you to more or less create a unique skillset for your character. I guess but in MEA I end up with a Ryder who has every ability after NG+. It's one of the things I don't like and so would prefer to avoid it with a classless system. That's fair, classless system would definitely need some sort of limit so you can't be everything.
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 2, 2018 12:28:36 GMT
How about this? We could pick a class and if a player decides to have a rogue or warrior skillset, they could go to schools for that specific skillset to unlock to customize and experiment abilities. A win-win.
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Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 2, 2018 14:28:01 GMT
How about this? We could pick a class and if a player decides to have a rogue or warrior skillset, they could go to schools for that specific skillset to unlock to customize and experiment abilities. A win-win. <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.960000000000036px; height: 3.1599999999999966px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_59017596" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1599999999999966"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_62973216" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1599999999999966"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 98px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_75639324" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1599999999999966"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: 98px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_37609270" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1599999999999966"></iframe> I wouldn't be opposed to that but I'd love it if you could only have X number of skills so that in order for a mage to become a rogue, the new class has to lose some abilities from the prior class.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 2, 2018 14:28:48 GMT
FYI, I love being able to hash out these ideas without it becoming a Thing where bad feelings are had.
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Post by Vall on Jun 2, 2018 15:19:03 GMT
I wouldn't be opposed to that but I'd love it if you could only have X number of skills so that in order for a mage to become a rogue, the new class has to lose some abilities from the prior class. Maybe you could have a base version of the class you choose in the CC until you get to the point where you can access the schools/trainer, and you have either option to learn advanced techniques for your original class or choose to branch out? With Mage being limited to CC option and trainer being there only for said advanced techniques. Say for stuff that would be part of current specialisations and more...difficult abilities like Firestorm (DA2 edition please), Blizzard, Static Cage, Deathblow (you know, end-points of trees in Inquisition) you would need to advance in your current class, while more basic abilities like Flanking Strike, Immolate or Pommel Strike would be parts of the base classes. Edit: Maybe you could even have extra active and passive abilities based on what your primary and secondary class is that would facilitate synergy between them.
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 3, 2018 3:21:13 GMT
How about this? We could pick a class and if a player decides to have a rogue or warrior skillset, they could go to schools for that specific skillset to unlock to customize and experiment abilities. A win-win. <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.960000000000036px; height: 3.1599999999999966px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_59017596" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1599999999999966"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_62973216" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1599999999999966"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 98px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_75639324" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1599999999999966"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: 98px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_37609270" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1599999999999966"></iframe> I wouldn't be opposed to that but I'd love it if you could only have X number of skills so that in order for a mage to become a rogue, the new class has to lose some abilities from the prior class. Not really and what would be the point if a person can't customize with limits?
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 3, 2018 4:16:33 GMT
<iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.960000000000036px; height: 3.1599999999999966px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_59017596" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1599999999999966"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_62973216" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1599999999999966"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 98px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_75639324" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1599999999999966"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: 98px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_37609270" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1599999999999966"></iframe> I wouldn't be opposed to that but I'd love it if you could only have X number of skills so that in order for a mage to become a rogue, the new class has to lose some abilities from the prior class. Not really and what would be the point if a person can't customize with limits? Doesn't that just bring us back to the potential to have every ability possible? My idea was to avoid it becoming like MEA where you can have every skill possible by the end of a NG+. I don't see the benefit because it just creates a mega-powerful character. I don't need my character to be Superman.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 3, 2018 6:13:37 GMT
Not really and what would be the point if a person can't customize with limits? Doesn't that just bring us back to the potential to have every ability possible? My idea was to avoid it becoming like MEA where you can have every skill possible by the end of a NG+. I don't see the benefit because it just creates a mega-powerful character. I don't need my character to be Superman. They could get away with not doing that simply by creating a level cap.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 3, 2018 8:01:58 GMT
Doesn't that just bring us back to the potential to have every ability possible? My idea was to avoid it becoming like MEA where you can have every skill possible by the end of a NG+. I don't see the benefit because it just creates a mega-powerful character. I don't need my character to be Superman. They could get away with not doing that simply by creating a level cap. It would have to be significantly lower than what we have in MEA.
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Post by Vall on Jun 3, 2018 8:21:17 GMT
They could get away with not doing that simply by creating a level cap. It would have to be significantly lower than what we have in MEA. Yeah, if we go with just a level cap it would have to be somewhere between 30 and 60. (in MEA skill tree terms, it would be different if skill tree looked like DAI)
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Post by colfoley on Jun 3, 2018 23:47:44 GMT
More I think about it the more I doubt they can go pure classless. Likely will have to rely on specializations. I still want the ability to switch weapons / profiles mid combat though.
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Post by Vall on Jun 4, 2018 8:06:28 GMT
More I think about it the more I doubt they can go pure classless. Likely will have to rely on specializations. I still want the ability to switch weapons / profiles mid combat though. Yep, pure classless wouldn't work in DA, if only because of how magic works. I do think there were some pretty neat ideas in this thread to expand our options though. ...also remove the stupid weapon restrictions, I want to use sword on my mage >_>
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 4, 2018 8:29:09 GMT
It would have to be significantly lower than what we have in MEA. Yeah, if we go with just a level cap it would have to be somewhere between 30 and 60. (in MEA skill tree terms, it would be different if skill tree looked like DAI) Why not go for limitless?
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Post by Vall on Jun 4, 2018 9:00:25 GMT
Yeah, if we go with just a level cap it would have to be somewhere between 30 and 60. (in MEA skill tree terms, it would be different if skill tree looked like DAI) Why not go for limitless? Doesn't that just bring us back to the potential to have every ability possible? My idea was to avoid it becoming like MEA where you can have every skill possible by the end of a NG+. I don't see the benefit because it just creates a mega-powerful character. I don't need my character to be Superman. Between 30 and 60 because it's around lvl 40 when you start having extra or waste skill points, when I just start dumping them wherever because all I already have all the skills that fit whatever character I'm playing. And IMO it just doesn't feel that great to spend points on skills I won't use. Not to mention that when you hit that point, the stat increases from skills points you spend make enemies trivial.
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Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Jan 7, 2019 21:18:04 GMT
I don't think removal of the Veil means everyone suddenly can shapeshift and shoot fire. I really liked how we could learn specializations in DAO (companions/manuals/quests), simply remove the class restriction on those.
Need to note we don't know yet if the game will start with the Veil removed, it could be an endgame thing, maybe even something we can prevent.
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