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Post by Iddy on May 4, 2017 14:40:02 GMT
It never did make much sense to me. These are sentient beings and therefore they are capable of something called choice, which means there naturally would be a much wider morality spectrum among them. Why not a Pride demon who focuses on positive kinds of pride such as a patriotic sentiment or family legacy? or a Desire demon that aids people who lead a hedonistic lifestyle and avoids harming anyone in the process?
What I'm tryng to say is that with the gift of intelligence comes individuality, which is severely lacking here. Instead, species apparently decides behavior and that is absurd when it comes to thinking beings.
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Post by thats1evildude on May 4, 2017 15:04:06 GMT
There are already spirits who represent the positive emotions, so I don't see the necessity.
Spirits are not like people. They are, in a word, simple. They find an emotion or a concept they like and they feed off of it for eternity. Sure, they're sentient, but just barely.
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Post by arvaarad on May 4, 2017 15:09:07 GMT
It never did make much sense to me. These are sentient beings and therefore they are capable of something called choice, which means there naturally would be a much wider morality spectrum among them. Why not a Pride demon who focuses on positive kinds of pride such as a patriotic sentiment or family legacy? or a Desire demon that aids people who lead a hedonistic lifestyle and avoids harming anyone in the process? What I'm tryng to say is that with the gift of intelligence comes individuality, which is severely lacking here. Instead, species apparently decides behavior and that is absurd when it comes to thinking beings. This is how spirits have been behaving since the first game. The desire demon enthralling Drass, who likely protected him from despair. The desire demon who reunites the lovers in The Calling. Wade, the desire/purpose spirit who's settled down to make dragonscale armor while bickering with Herren. Justice, who likes the song of lyrium jewelry. Xebenkeck, the desire demon who likes books and is infamous among the evanuris for being a pacifist, but who also probably taught people blood magic and messed with Kirkwall. Cole, the despair/compassion spirit who likes birds and matchmaking. Wisdom, the spirit who walks deeply in the Fade, and who may have had a streak of pride even before being bound. Hakkon, the god of war and winter, who aids both good and evil warriors in battle, and possesses dragons because that's how he rolls. Command, who I'm pretty sure has her own BDSM dungeon in the Fade. Nightmare, who "started out helping", but realized he could help more people if he hurt them first. Imshael, the desire/choice spirit who likes interesting choices and excitement. The Grand Oak, who possessed a tree and decided to spend his time spouting poetry at everyone. Wynne's spirit of faith, who helps her through difficult times, but who also blinds her to situations where things won't "just work themselves out". Shall I go on?
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Post by Iddy on May 4, 2017 15:45:13 GMT
There are already spirits who represent the positive emotions, so I don't see the necessity. Spirits are not like people. They are, in a word, simple. They find an emotion or a concept they like and they feed off of it for eternity. Sure, they're sentient, but just barely. "Spirits are not like people". Solas disagrees with you and he understands the subject better than most. Besides, there is no reason why positive and negative should be so black and white.
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Post by thats1evildude on May 4, 2017 17:14:59 GMT
Eh. Solas' point is more that the nature of spirits is malleable, and that the perceptions of the people of Thedas are responsible for turning so many spirits into demons. But under the right circumstances, a pride demon can become a spirit of wisdom, desire can become purpose, and so on.
I take that to mean, again, that they're not really people, but rather reflections of the mortal world.
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Post by Iddy on May 4, 2017 17:22:36 GMT
Eh. Solas' point is more that the nature of spirits is malleable, and that the perceptions of the people of Thedas are responsible for turning so many spirits into demons. But under the right circumstances, a pride demon can become a spirit of wisdom, desire can become purpose, and so on. I take that to mean, again, that they're not really people, but rather reflections of the mortal world. There literally is a party banter where Solas clashes with Dorian for calling them mere constructs of the Fade. And again, he knows more about this than you do.
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Post by thats1evildude on May 4, 2017 17:26:23 GMT
Eh. Solas' point is more that the nature of spirits is malleable, and that the perceptions of the people of Thedas are responsible for turning so many spirits into demons. But under the right circumstances, a pride demon can become a spirit of wisdom, desire can become purpose, and so on. I take that to mean, again, that they're not really people, but rather reflections of the mortal world. There literally is a party banter where Solas clashes with Dorian for calling them mere constructs of the Fade. And again, he knows more about this than you do. I don't recall such a banter. And you may not have noticed, but Solas' insistence that he knows better than everyone else is basically his most glaring flaw.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 4, 2017 17:32:16 GMT
In some ways I think that the Dalish had a better idea for it for the majority of spirits. Like wild animals which are driven by instincts, they are driven by a particular emotion. Pigs are regarded as intelligent creatures and have been shown to be able to reason out problems, but nevertheless on the whole they still behave like pigs. Different dogs can display what appears to be different character traits but they still largely behave like dogs. On the whole pride demons came about because they were attracted a prideful person. Whilst pride can be a positive thing, it can easily slip over into a more negative, self absorbed state of mind.
Even when a spirit develops a more complex identity, they still seem bound to act in a certain way. Take Imshael who identifies as a "choice spirit" rather than a desire demon, but nevertheless his actions are very much determined by whether he can manipulated a person into making a choice about something. It seems he particularly likes it when the choice involves a moral dilemma because that makes the whole process more interesting. The greatest "sin" in his eyes is not making a choice. This would seem to be why he was so angry with Thelhen. The latter, when offered a choice that compromised his moral outlook, refused to make it and kept Imshael hanging around in the hope he could persuade him to a better deal. Instead Imshael simply found someone else who was willing to make a choice, even though it was not precisely the one he claimed to be hoping for.
When looking at the Evanuris, I think it is always valuable to remember that they probably originated as spirits. So their alleged sphere of interest probably reflected their outlook being very spirit-like. Andruil is known as a hunter. This was probably her defining identity. Hence her being constantly driven to hunt new things and when she became bored of hunting her regular prey decided to try something different and more challenging in the Void. Falon'Din is known to the Dalish as the god of the dead. If this was always his identity, then it follows that things must die for him to have a purpose in life. If the ancient elves were immortal it would only be possible for him to obtain followers by war, accident, murder, disease or other misfortune. So it was hardly surprising that he was constantly trying to start wars that created rivers of blood. Solas suggests it was because of his vanity, I'd say it was simply because his "nature" required it.
Footnote: I never understood why the opposite of a pride demon is a wisdom spirit. Surely the opposite of wisdom would be ignorance and the opposite of pride would be humility. Anyway, there was a codex about a spirit of love being turned into a demon of desire by a mortal's obsession with it, so in that case it was two sides of the same emotion of erotic love. Whereas there are other desire demons that are clearly about people being driven by ambition, the opposite of which would be Solas' friend "purpose". I would also suggest that Solas' obsession with bringing back the world of the elves by any means shows a negative aspect of someone being guided by "purpose". Of course, with great irony, his friend "wisdom" is no longer in the picture to temper his purpose, although it didn't seem to have much effect on him even when it was still around, seeing as his plan with the orb was in existence long before the Breach.
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N3
Posts: 842 Likes: 1,156
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Post by xerrai on May 4, 2017 17:35:51 GMT
There are already spirits who represent the positive emotions, so I don't see the necessity. Spirits are not like people. They are, in a word, simple. They find an emotion or a concept they like and they feed off of it for eternity. Sure, they're sentient, but just barely. "Spirits are not like people". Solas disagrees with you and he understands the subject better than most. Besides, there is no reason why positive and negative should be so black and white. And yet even Solas notes the obvious differences between spirits and mortals. Notably in how mortal emotions affects them and vice versa and in how he treats Cole. But at any rate, we have seen our fair share of 'demons' who not all that morally reprehensible--or at least, not the same way most senseless demons we encounter. Imshael, Cole in Asunder, Command, Hakkon, etc. Even Nightmare was implied to be a decent enough spirit before its corruption. Furthermore, we have a decent amount of evidence to suggest that the majority of demons we do encounter in games are only a minority of spirits. Ones that have a particular interest in the world of the living and are willing to either possess stuff or cross the veil to enter it (something which is notably rare as crossing the veil safely requires a spirit form personality and a strong will). Yet even the Circle has ample documentation of spirits (or "demons" to them) who are perfectly content to stay in the fade and feed off of the memories of the living without instantly resorting to possession or something inherently malicious. Not to mention how Solas claims how there is actually very little differences between spirit and demon and while I didn't understand it at first I can kind of see what he is saying. What is Vengeance if not Justice taken way too far? Or despair that is hope/compassion that ultimately never sees its hope come to fruition? Pride a form of wisdom without humility? Any spirit can corrupt into a demon, and presumably that means any demon can revert to a spirit (like Cole). The only reason that they seldom seem to change is because they either don't want to, or simply can't. Few have the will necessary to form personality, let alone an ability to perform deep introspection. Hell, most of them are not even that intelligent at all. But those who do are the ones that are likely more complex in nature. After all, what hope does a demon have of feeding off an emotion if it cannot understand it? Take the case of the Rage demons: We have simple ones that are--well--Rage, and they are noted to be dolts who are basically just living lava that goes after anger no matter the form. Then we have a spirit like Vengeance/Justice who embodies a much more complex concept and can take the form of either spirit or demon while still never leaving that demonic "Rage" category at all.
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Post by Iddy on May 4, 2017 17:44:03 GMT
"Spirits are not like people". Solas disagrees with you and he understands the subject better than most. Besides, there is no reason why positive and negative should be so black and white. And yet even Solas notes the obvious differences between spirits and mortals. Notably in how mortal emotions affects them and vice versa and in how he treats Cole. But at any rate, we have seen our fair share of 'demons' who not all that morally reprehensible--or at least, not the same way most senseless demons we encounter. Imshael, Cole in Asunder, Command, Hakkon, etc. Even Nightmare was implied to be a decent enough spirit before its corruption. Furthermore, we have a decent amount of evidence to suggest that the majority of demons we do encounter in games are only a minority of spirits. Ones that have a particular interest in the world of the living and are willing to either possess stuff or cross the veil to enter it (something which is notably rare as crossing the veil safely requires a spirit form personality and a strong will). Yet even the Circle has ample documentation of spirits (or "demons" to them) who are perfectly content to stay in the fade and feed off of the memories of the living without instantly resorting to possession or something inherently malicious. Not to mention how Solas claims how there is actually very little differences between spirit and demon and while I didn't understand it at first I can kind of see what he is saying. What is Vengeance if not Justice taken way too far? Or despair that is hope/compassion that ultimately never sees its hope come to fruition? Pride a form of wisdom without humility? Any spirit can corrupt into a demon, and presumably that means any demon can revert to a spirit (like Cole). The only reason that they seldom seem to change is because they either don't want to, or simply can't. Few have the will necessary to form personality, let alone an ability to perform deep introspection. Hell, most of them are not even that intelligent at all. But those who do are the ones that are likely more complex in nature. After all, what hope does a demon have of feeding off an emotion if it cannot understand it? Take the case of the Rage demons: We have simple ones that are--well--Rage, and they are noted to be dolts who are basically just living lava that goes after anger no matter the form. Then we have a spirit like Vengeance/Justice who embodies a much more complex concept and can take the form of either spirit or demon while still never leaving that demonic "Rage" category at all. I'd say that spirits becoming demons when they *go bad* only reinforces that black and white duality. As for individuality, the fact that even the more intelligent spirits rarely have names is pretty telling in how it barely is acknowledged. The lore certainly could use some improvements.
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Post by arvaarad on May 4, 2017 17:47:24 GMT
Eh. Solas' point is more that the nature of spirits is malleable, and that the perceptions of the people of Thedas are responsible for turning so many spirits into demons. But under the right circumstances, a pride demon can become a spirit of wisdom, desire can become purpose, and so on. I take that to mean, again, that they're not really people, but rather reflections of the mortal world. It's sort of unclear how much spirits are actually shifting, vs people seeing them differently because they interpret the underlying actions differently. A spirit of desire/purpose might not actually change their behavior, but one person could interpret their actions as encouraging purpose ("you've helped them focus on their goal") while someone else sees the same action as encouraging unhealthy desire ("you've made them obsess over one goal"). The question then becomes: does the spirit change its behavior to match what people expect, or does it merely change its appearance to match the mortal's good/evil interpretation (for example, looking like a demon when people think it's evil), without actually changing its behavior that much? It's also a matter of degrees. A spirit can encourage a certain emotion that's good in moderation, but awful in excess (like focus vs. obsession). When it crosses that line, the spirit itself hasn't changed, it's just gotten more powerful. But mortals' sense of morality now deems it evil. Arguably, this is what happened with Cole, but in the other direction. He found killing people was less effective at evoking his target emotion (because while 1 person finds relief, others get stressed out), so he switched to different methods. We can read that as Rhys being a positive influence on his definition of "compassion"... or we could read that as Rhys showing him a more effective way to feed. It's hard to say.
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Post by xerrai on May 4, 2017 17:47:31 GMT
Eh. Solas' point is more that the nature of spirits is malleable, and that the perceptions of the people of Thedas are responsible for turning so many spirits into demons. But under the right circumstances, a pride demon can become a spirit of wisdom, desire can become purpose, and so on. I take that to mean, again, that they're not really people, but rather reflections of the mortal world. Personally I thought Solas was of the mind that spirits are people (or at least some of them)--but that being a person does not necessarily require what others typically associate with "people" (ex. strong will/personality). We already know that Solas's interpretation of what a "person" is quite different from our own so....he's possibly right? At least in his interpretation. Can't really expect a guy from 1000s of year ago to view even basic concepts the same as the rest of us do. But otherwise I agree with you.
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Post by Iddy on May 4, 2017 17:50:57 GMT
In some ways I think that the Dalish had a better idea for it for the majority of spirits. Like wild animals which are driven by instincts, they are driven by a particular emotion. Pigs are regarded as intelligent creatures and have been shown to be able to reason out problems, but nevertheless on the whole they still behave like pigs. Different dogs can display what appears to be different character traits but they still largely behave like dogs. On the whole pride demons came about because they were attracted a prideful person. Whilst pride can be a positive thing, it can easily slip over into a more negative, self absorbed state of mind.
Even when a spirit develops a more complex identity, they still seem bound to act in a certain way. Take Imshael who identifies as a "choice spirit" rather than a desire demon, but nevertheless his actions are very much determined by whether he can manipulated a person into making a choice about something. It seems he particularly likes it when the choice involves a moral dilemma because that makes the whole process more interesting. The greatest "sin" in his eyes is not making a choice. This would seem to be why he was so angry with Thelhen. The latter, when offered a choice that compromised his moral outlook, refused to make it and kept Imshael hanging around in the hope he could persuade him to a better deal. Instead Imshael simply found someone else who was willing to make a choice, even though it was not precisely the one he claimed to be hoping for.
When looking at the Evanuris, I think it is always valuable to remember that they probably originated as spirits. So their alleged sphere of interest probably reflected their outlook being very spirit-like. Andruil is known as a hunter. This was probably her defining identity. Hence her being constantly driven to hunt new things and when she became bored of hunting her regular prey decided to try something different and more challenging in the Void. Falon'Din is known to the Dalish as the god of the dead. If this was always his identity, then it follows that things must die for him to have a purpose in life. If the ancient elves were immortal it would only be possible for him to obtain followers by war, accident, murder, disease or other misfortune. So it was hardly surprising that he was constantly trying to start wars that created rivers of blood. Solas suggests it was because of his vanity, I'd say it was simply because his "nature" required it.
Footnote: I never understood why the opposite of a pride demon is a wisdom spirit. Surely the opposite of wisdom would be ignorance and the opposite of pride would be humility. Anyway, there was a codex about a spirit of love being turned into a demon of desire by a mortal's obsession with it, so in that case it was two sides of the same emotion of erotic love. Whereas there are other desire demons that are clearly about people being driven by ambition, the opposite of which would be Solas' friend "purpose". I would also suggest that Solas' obsession with bringing back the world of the elves by any means shows a negative aspect of someone being guided by "purpose". Of course, with great irony, his friend "wisdom" is no longer in the picture to temper his purpose, although it didn't seem to have much effect on him even when it was still around, seeing as his plan with the orb was in existence long before the Breach. This entire explanation is unnecessary. The thread isn't about what is the correct interpretation of the lore is, but my opinion that it would be more interesting if spirits were given more individuality.
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Post by Iddy on May 4, 2017 17:54:07 GMT
Eh. Solas' point is more that the nature of spirits is malleable, and that the perceptions of the people of Thedas are responsible for turning so many spirits into demons. But under the right circumstances, a pride demon can become a spirit of wisdom, desire can become purpose, and so on. I take that to mean, again, that they're not really people, but rather reflections of the mortal world. Personally I thought Solas was of the mind that spirits are people (or at least some of them)--but that being a person does not necessarily require what others typically associate with "people" (ex. strong will/personality). We already know that Solas's interpretation of what a "person" is quite different from our own so....he's possibly right? At least in his interpretation. Can't really expect a guy from 1000s of year ago to view even basic concepts the same as the rest of us do. But otherwise I agree with you. Solas argues that having a physical body isn't a requirement for personhood. "Is Cassandra defined by her cheekbones?".
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Post by Iddy on May 4, 2017 18:24:34 GMT
It never did make much sense to me. These are sentient beings and therefore they are capable of something called choice, which means there naturally would be a much wider morality spectrum among them. Why not a Pride demon who focuses on positive kinds of pride such as a patriotic sentiment or family legacy? or a Desire demon that aids people who lead a hedonistic lifestyle and avoids harming anyone in the process? What I'm tryng to say is that with the gift of intelligence comes individuality, which is severely lacking here. Instead, species apparently decides behavior and that is absurd when it comes to thinking beings. This is how spirits have been behaving since the first game. The desire demon enthralling Drass, who likely protected him from despair. The desire demon who reunites the lovers in The Calling. Wade, the desire/purpose spirit who's settled down to make dragonscale armor while bickering with Herren. Justice, who likes the song of lyrium jewelry. Xebenkeck, the desire demon who likes books and is infamous among the evanuris for being a pacifist, but who also probably taught people blood magic and messed with Kirkwall. Cole, the despair/compassion spirit who likes birds and matchmaking. Wisdom, the spirit who walks deeply in the Fade, and who may have had a streak of pride even before being bound. Hakkon, the god of war and winter, who aids both good and evil warriors in battle, and possesses dragons because that's how he rolls. Command, who I'm pretty sure has her own BDSM dungeon in the Fade. Nightmare, who "started out helping", but realized he could help more people if he hurt them first. Imshael, the desire/choice spirit who likes interesting choices and excitement. The Grand Oak, who possessed a tree and decided to spend his time spouting poetry at everyone. Wynne's spirit of faith, who helps her through difficult times, but who also blinds her to situations where things won't "just work themselves out". Shall I go on? I always encourage fan theories and interpretations, so why not. The Desire Demon wasn't helping Drass. She was feeding. Enjoying something like lyrium music or whatever else doesn't broaden their morality pallete. Moreover,changing into demons when they turn evil only reinforces the separation between bad demons and good spirits. The story would benefit from something more inbetween. Xebenkeck still is mainly vile and Hakkon aiding warriors indiscriminately just makes him more one dimentional and bound by his sphere. Imshael is note worthy for adding a twist to it, but this is far from being the norm as far as portrayal is concerned. I also would like to see the source for the claim that Wade is a spirit. An ingame source or another official work, preferably.
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Post by thats1evildude on May 4, 2017 18:31:28 GMT
I know that Solas thinks of spirits as people, but I personally don't. Yes, humans are influenced by their environments and their interactions with others, but we don't flip between good and evil based on how others perceive us.
For all of Solas' self-serving blather about the wonders of the Fade, I defer to Cole, who makes it fairly clear in his Cole-like way that spirits aren't "real."
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N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,887 Likes: 49,357
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Post by Iakus on May 4, 2017 18:32:51 GMT
Personally I thought Solas was of the mind that spirits are people (or at least some of them)--but that being a person does not necessarily require what others typically associate with "people" (ex. strong will/personality). We already know that Solas's interpretation of what a "person" is quite different from our own so....he's possibly right? At least in his interpretation. Can't really expect a guy from 1000s of year ago to view even basic concepts the same as the rest of us do. But otherwise I agree with you. Solas argues that having a physical body isn't a requirement for personhood. "Is Cassandra defined by her cheekbones?". People aren't simple. They cannot be defined for easy reference in the manner of: 'the elves are a lithe, pointy-eared people who excel at poverty.'"Solas would hate to hear a Qunari say that Nevertheless, Sten has a point. People are complicated. And spirits are people. However, spirits are not like other people, who are bound by physical rules. Spirits are influenced by their environment, their perceptions, and how other people perceive them. As such, they cannot be measured the same as a human or an elf. Tehy are individuals, but at the same time slaves to their changeable nature.
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Post by arvaarad on May 4, 2017 18:50:20 GMT
This is how spirits have been behaving since the first game. The desire demon enthralling Drass, who likely protected him from despair. The desire demon who reunites the lovers in The Calling. Wade, the desire/purpose spirit who's settled down to make dragonscale armor while bickering with Herren. Justice, who likes the song of lyrium jewelry. Xebenkeck, the desire demon who likes books and is infamous among the evanuris for being a pacifist, but who also probably taught people blood magic and messed with Kirkwall. Cole, the despair/compassion spirit who likes birds and matchmaking. Wisdom, the spirit who walks deeply in the Fade, and who may have had a streak of pride even before being bound. Hakkon, the god of war and winter, who aids both good and evil warriors in battle, and possesses dragons because that's how he rolls. Command, who I'm pretty sure has her own BDSM dungeon in the Fade. Nightmare, who "started out helping", but realized he could help more people if he hurt them first. Imshael, the desire/choice spirit who likes interesting choices and excitement. The Grand Oak, who possessed a tree and decided to spend his time spouting poetry at everyone. Wynne's spirit of faith, who helps her through difficult times, but who also blinds her to situations where things won't "just work themselves out". Shall I go on? I always encourage fan theories and interpretations, so why not. The Desire Demon wasn't helping Drass. She was feeding. Enjoying something like lyrium music or whatever else doesn't broaden their morality pallete. Moreover,changing into demons when they turn evil only reinforces the separation between bad demons and good spirits. The story would benefit from something more inbetween. Xebenkeck still is mainly vile and Hakkon aiding warriors indiscriminately just makes him more one dimentional and bound by his sphere. Imshael is note worthy for adding a twist to it, but this is far from being the norm as far as portrayal is concerned. I also would like to see the source for the claim that Wade is a spirit. An ingame source or another official work, preferably. Drass is ambiguous. There's a note you can get that says he's being transferred for acting up. It's pretty clear he's not cut out to be a templar, but what is he going to do? Templars can't just quit, they're addicted to lyrium. He's stuck in a demon-infested tower, he doesn't even want to be a templar, he wants to have a home and family. Had she not given him a nice fantasy, some other demon would have found him easy prey. Especially despair demons (who I'm assuming were present, even though they hadn't been added to the roster in DA:O). If she's feeding, so what? It's mutually beneficial. It seems a bit weird to say Justice's shift doesn't count because he turns into a demon. By that definition, no shift in morality would be possible, because people label spirits "demons" as soon as they do evil stuff. Even if the situation is more nuanced, and they're doing both good and evil things (which is true of Justice, even in Act III - he's still helping Anders heal and do all those mundane good deeds, while plotting the destruction of the Chantry), generally one evil thing gets them lumped into the "demon" category. We know almost nothing about Xebenkeck, certainly not enough to judge her good or evil. We do know that some people in the past tried to summon her, but not whether she encouraged/approved of this behavior. And she only attacks Hawke if they destroy her book collection, which kind of seems fair to me. We also know she sat out of one of the ancient elven wars, and the evanuris got mad at her for that. So all of the confirmed info is either neutral or slightly positive. Just... don't destroy her books. Wade is semi-canon, in the sense that he's revealed to be a shade in Darkspawn Chronicles. Darkspawn Chronicles is considered apocryphal, so he's on the list only half-seriously.
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Post by fylimar on May 4, 2017 20:38:24 GMT
Wade is semi-canon, in the sense that he's revealed to be a shade in Darkspawn Chronicles. Darkspawn Chronicles is considered apocryphal, so he's on the list only half-seriously. Wasn't Herren a desire demon in the Darkspawn Chronicles? Wade didn't change as far as I know (it's been a while since I played it)
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Post by arvaarad on May 4, 2017 20:57:17 GMT
Wade is semi-canon, in the sense that he's revealed to be a shade in Darkspawn Chronicles. Darkspawn Chronicles is considered apocryphal, so he's on the list only half-seriously. Wasn't Herren a desire demon in the Darkspawn Chronicles? Wade didn't change as far as I know (it's been a while since I played it) You may be correct. In that case, Wade being a shade is double-apocryphal.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on May 4, 2017 21:07:43 GMT
I always encourage fan theories and interpretations, so why not.
The Desire Demon wasn't helping Drass. She was feeding.
Enjoying something like lyrium music or whatever else doesn't broaden their morality pallete. Moreover,changing into demons when they turn evil only reinforces the separation between bad demons and good spirits. The story would benefit from something more inbetween. Xebenkeck still is mainly vile and Hakkon aiding warriors indiscriminately just makes him more one dimentional and bound by his sphere.
Imshael is note worthy for adding a twist to it, but this is far from being the norm as far as portrayal is concerned.
I also would like to see the source for the claim that Wade is a spirit. An ingame source or another official work, preferably. Drass is ambiguous. There's a note you can get that says he's being transferred for acting up. It's pretty clear he's not cut out to be a templar, but what is he going to do? Templars can't just quit, they're addicted to lyrium. He's stuck in a demon-infested tower, he doesn't even want to be a templar, he wants to have a home and family. Had she not given him a nice fantasy, some other demon would have found him easy prey. Especially despair demons (who I'm assuming were present, even though they hadn't been added to the roster in DA:O). If she's feeding, so what? It's mutually beneficial. It seems a bit weird to say Justice's shift doesn't count because he turns into a demon. By that definition, no shift in morality would be possible, because people label spirits "demons" as soon as they do evil stuff. Even if the situation is more nuanced, and they're doing both good and evil things (which is true of Justice, even in Act III - he's still helping Anders heal and do all those mundane good deeds, while plotting the destruction of the Chantry), generally one evil thing gets them lumped into the "demon" category. We know almost nothing about Xebenkeck, certainly not enough to judge her good or evil. We do know that some people in the past tried to summon her, but not whether she encouraged/approved of this behavior. And she only attacks Hawke if they destroy her book collection, which kind of seems fair to me. We also know she sat out of one of the ancient elven wars, and the evanuris got mad at her for that. So all of the confirmed info is either neutral or slightly positive. Just... don't destroy her books. Wade is semi-canon, in the sense that he's revealed to be a shade in Darkspawn Chronicles. Darkspawn Chronicles is considered apocryphal, so he's on the list only half-seriously. I agree, perhaps, some of the demons think, that they help, but I'm not sure about it. But I'm sure, that this desire demon didn't help to the Templar. How do you think that? That Templar would die form it's help... what the desire demon promised him was not life, not even a dream. The demon wanted to prevent him from living. Justice didn't turn into demon, at least this isn't sure. But Justice not that simple spirit anymore, who was in the Fade, when the Warden met with him at first time. He lost his purity outside of Fade. He met many emotions, and ambiguity. Yes, Anders think, that Justice turned into Vengeance, but, what he did in Kirkwall, what prove, that Justice already Vengeance, not Justice anymore? Did he kill Templars? Not even one, if that Templar is not attacked him. Killed Ella? In the heat of the battle she called him demon, but if he trusts in Hawke, he will retreat. So at the moment Justice and Anders was is unstable. Anders didn't trust Justice, or rather in himself. He needs to learn to control his emotions, but even Justice can learn about Anders emotions. So: this case doesn't prove, that Justice already turned into a demon. (Of course, even not excluded.) After Ella's case Anders continues his work in the Darktown, works for Mages with Mage Underground, and writes his manifestos, for convincing people. This is Vengeance? I think not. For seven years Anders doesn't anything, what would seem some kind of vengeance. Meanwhile, Meredith eliminated the Mage Underground, and later sent the request for the Annulment. I think, this was the point, when Anders started thinking about, what he can do, when it has run out of the peaceful tools. Here we can thinking about, that this was justice or vengeance. Or perhaps both.
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Post by Walter Black on May 5, 2017 2:31:55 GMT
Speaking purely for myself, I partake of speculative fiction to explore what does not, cannot exist. The single minded, yet elusive purpose of Dragon Age's Spirits and Demons is part of what makes them unique in fantasy, as opposed to so-called fantastical beings that are still basically people. The more complex and individual you make Demons and Spirits, the less alien they become. If you are writing are character that is for all intents and purposes human anyway, what was the point of making them non-human to begin with?
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Post by DragonKingReborn on May 5, 2017 4:36:55 GMT
I don't mind a certain uniformity in their morality - as such. They're twisted by exposure to man's world, right?
What I'd like to see more of is what we got in Origins and 2. Demons acting differently according to their 'type'. Rage Demons are OK being 'stab stab kill', because, well, rage, and Pride can go there from time to time as well. But Desire demons should be about subversion and only attack the player (or NPCs) when the subversion fails. Similarly, Sloth, Despair and Fear should be focused on subjugation (like the one in the Broken Circle).
I can give a pass to the demons in Inquisition for the most part. The Breach likely drove them mad (or madder still, depending on your point of view). I just hope we can go back to demons of nuance in DA4, especially as it seems likely we're heading to Tevinter where relationships with demons seem to fall under the category of "It's complicated".
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on May 5, 2017 8:10:34 GMT
It never did make much sense to me. These are sentient beings and therefore they are capable of something called choice, which means there naturally would be a much wider morality spectrum among them. Why not a Pride demon who focuses on positive kinds of pride such as a patriotic sentiment or family legacy? or a Desire demon that aids people who lead a hedonistic lifestyle and avoids harming anyone in the process? What I'm tryng to say is that with the gift of intelligence comes individuality, which is severely lacking here. Instead, species apparently decides behavior and that is absurd when it comes to thinking beings. Well, there's some of what you want to see already in play with Grandin's Rage Demon staying pointed at the right targets (for now) and Vengeance staying pointed at one target for the most part. Then there's the Sloth spirit that doesn't attack you in the Mage Origin, even though it qualifies as a demon as Thedas classifies them. But in light of what Solas says about demons being spirits gone wrong... well, if that's true, and demons are spirits that were driven insane, then how much of the stuff you mention would you really expect to see? Even if it's not the full explanation, if it's at least mostly true then you still wouldn't expect to see too much more ambiguity from them than we already have.
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by phoray on May 5, 2017 12:58:40 GMT
Someone mentioned perspective and it made me have an interesting thought. Like, you can't RP someone who let's spirits be spirits- every mage will see a sexy demon woman rubbing herself in the Fade if they try to save Conner. I'm assuming Imshael has a strong enough will to ignore perception and retain the shape he prefers. No matter your cunning or mage background, we'll never pick up that Wade is a desire/purpose spirit.
Or is the implication that Conner perceived the Desire Demon to look that way?
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