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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on May 9, 2017 15:27:38 GMT
And when a desire demon tempts her, it offers a ship full of men. Isabela is pretty down-the-middle. Most real people, even bi people, have more of a preference than she does. A dude Hawke isn't in competition with lady Hawkes (or vice versa). The lady Hawkes don't exist, in his universe. Why does it matter if someone's lover would pick an opposite-gender version of them, if such a person existed? There is no opposite-gender copy of them running around. It's like worrying about a version of yourself with no character flaws stealing your lover. Sure, hypothetically that person would be more appealling. But they don't exist. As I recall it, it was the getting a brand new ship part that got her attention. It matters because I'm not talking about what Hawke feels as a character, but the players themselves. And in my opinion, it just isn't the way the writers should handle bi LIs at all. The protagonist isn't going to be a perfect match for their LI anyway. My Dorianmancer sided with the templars. My Solasmancer killed the sentinels. My Seramancer was power-hungry. My Isabelamancer became a viscount and killed Bethany. My Merrillmancer denied her the mirror. My Zevranmancer... okay, they were a pretty good match, but point still stands. If the player really needs to be the perfect fulfillment of all the LI's fantasies, they can change their protagonist's gender just as easily as changing their personality. They could make a redhead for Bull, a vashoth for Sera. The option is there. There's also the option for "imperfect" relationships, and I like having that option.
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Post by Iddy on May 9, 2017 15:35:05 GMT
As I recall it, it was the getting a brand new ship part that got her attention. It matters because I'm not talking about what Hawke feels as a character, but the players themselves. And in my opinion, it just isn't the way the writers should handle bi LIs at all. The protagonist isn't going to be a perfect match for their LI anyway. My Dorianmancer sided with the templars. My Solasmancer killed the sentinels. My Seramancer was power-hungry. My Isabelamancer became a viscount and killed Bethany. My Merrillmancer denied her the mirror. My Zevranmancer... okay, they were a pretty good match, but point still stands. If the player really needs to be the perfect fulfillment of all the LI's fantasies, they can change their protagonist's gender just as easily as changing their personality. They could make a redhead for Bull, a vashoth for Sera. The option is there. There's also the option for "imperfect" relationships, and I like having that option. I wasn't talking about sexual attraction. I meant emotional investment.
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on May 9, 2017 15:53:28 GMT
The protagonist isn't going to be a perfect match for their LI anyway. My Dorianmancer sided with the templars. My Solasmancer killed the sentinels. My Seramancer was power-hungry. My Isabelamancer became a viscount and killed Bethany. My Merrillmancer denied her the mirror. My Zevranmancer... okay, they were a pretty good match, but point still stands. If the player really needs to be the perfect fulfillment of all the LI's fantasies, they can change their protagonist's gender just as easily as changing their personality. They could make a redhead for Bull, a vashoth for Sera. The option is there. There's also the option for "imperfect" relationships, and I like having that option. I wasn't talking about sexual attraction. I meant emotional investment. And personality choices affect emotional investment. Solas was livid at my Lavellan in the temple of Mythal. He hated her bloodthirst in Here Lies the Abyss. I still had them romance each other. My Adaar straight-up abandoned Dorian after meeting him, and sided with the templars instead. Dorian chewed him out after joining the Inquisition. And they got together anyway. Would the relationship have been deeper with a different Inquisitor? Probably, yes. If this is about the player's feelings, they can easily choose a different gender for their protag. It's just another RP choice, like killing the sentinels or siding with the templars. If it's about the protagonist's feelings, they aren't aware of alternate world states where the LI might say something slightly more affectionate.
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Pain Delta
N2
Go back to lesbian college to learn words
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 74 Likes: 169
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169
Pain Delta
Go back to lesbian college to learn words
74
May 2017
bunkinbronuts
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Pain Delta on May 9, 2017 16:39:31 GMT
The protagonist isn't going to be a perfect match for their LI anyway. My Dorianmancer sided with the templars. My Solasmancer killed the sentinels. My Seramancer was power-hungry. My Isabelamancer became a viscount and killed Bethany. My Merrillmancer denied her the mirror. My Zevranmancer... okay, they were a pretty good match, but point still stands. If the player really needs to be the perfect fulfillment of all the LI's fantasies, they can change their protagonist's gender just as easily as changing their personality. They could make a redhead for Bull, a vashoth for Sera. The option is there. There's also the option for "imperfect" relationships, and I like having that option. I wasn't talking about sexual attraction. I meant emotional investment. Why would Anders have less emotional investment in femHawke just because of the existence of Karl? As he was one of your examples.
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Post by Iddy on May 9, 2017 17:16:42 GMT
I wasn't talking about sexual attraction. I meant emotional investment. Why would Anders have less emotional investment in femHawke just because of the existence of Karl? As he was one of your examples. Not so much the existence but the fact that he only trusts MHawke enough to talk about it.
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Pain Delta
N2
Go back to lesbian college to learn words
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 74 Likes: 169
inherit
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Pain Delta
Go back to lesbian college to learn words
74
May 2017
bunkinbronuts
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Pain Delta on May 9, 2017 17:24:58 GMT
Why would Anders have less emotional investment in femHawke just because of the existence of Karl? As he was one of your examples. Not so much the existence but the fact that he only trusts MHawke enough to talk about it. That was moreso just to hide he was bisexual at all, and not just playersexual. A femHawke could happily see him as heterosexual that way, etc. I do agree actually giving it some thought, since I really really don't like the femHawke and Anders romance. It is much more about Anders wanting to protect femHawke (either because she is a mage or because she is in danger because of associating with him) and secure a future for potential lil mage babies they make later on. MaleHawke and Anders felt a lot more partners in crime, passionate rebels, all that. This feels more preference though, maybe some people prefer the femHawke relationship but also I don't like being treated as a soft little thing to protect because of my gender lol. So yeah, I do agree they need to do bisexual characters better, even if I am okay with preferences existing and being the potential non-preferred gender.
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Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on May 9, 2017 18:17:09 GMT
Not so much the existence but the fact that he only trusts MHawke enough to talk about it. That was moreso just to hide he was bisexual at all, and not just playersexual. A femHawke could happily see him as heterosexual that way, etc. I do agree actually giving it some thought, since I really really don't like the femHawke and Anders romance. It is much more about Anders wanting to protect femHawke (either because she is a mage or because she is in danger because of associating with him) and secure a future for potential lil mage babies they make later on. MaleHawke and Anders felt a lot more partners in crime, passionate rebels, all that. This feels more preference though, maybe some people prefer the femHawke relationship but also I don't like being treated as a soft little thing to protect because of my gender lol. So yeah, I do agree they need to do bisexual characters better, even if I am okay with preferences existing and being the potential non-preferred gender. Yes, Anders' romance is better with M!Hawke – ofc for me, but not only do I say this. (Despite, that DA2-Anders/Justice written by a woman.)
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guest@proboards.com
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2017 18:23:25 GMT
I thought Isabela was pretty refreshing because there's a lot of bi female characters that are portrayed as "less serious" about women than they are about men, so seeing it the other way around was a twist on that trope. I don't see why the male players should be punished for that. Imagine what it feels like for a guy romancing Isabela to find out she is less emotionally invested just because of his character's gender. Thankfully, this isn't an approach the writers have taken with any bi LIs ever since, and Mythal willing they never will again. Usually not... unless it's done like this. FemHawke's voice acting is better than MaleHawke anyway
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Post by vertigomez on May 10, 2017 12:42:57 GMT
IIRC Isabela DOES get jealous over mHawke, but only if you do MotA in Act III. It's not that she's less emotionally invested in "Garrett" - it just takes her longer to warm up to him.
She's more cautious and less open around men than she is around women; she teases mHawke for his performance in bed and teases Carver over his interest in her, but praises fHawke for her performance in bed and encourages Bethany to explore her sexuality (dirty books, Blooming Rose, etc). She's used to being disparaged for being a shamelessly sexual woman, and a lot of that is reflected in how she approaches her relationships with men and women. She puts her foot down with male partners before they have a chance to slut shame and encourages women to embrace their sexual side.
Even discounting all that, bisexuals with a preference exist and deserve to be represented, too. Even bisexuals with a HEAVY preference exist (see: the terms homoflexible and heteroflexible). A woman's not hurting or insulting men by generally leaning more toward women. That's just how she's wired.
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Oct 29, 2016 15:45:26 GMT
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crimsonn7
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by Crim on May 10, 2017 12:51:01 GMT
IIRC Isabela DOES get jealous over mHawke, but only if you do MotA in Act III. It's not that she's less emotionally invested in "Garrett" - it just takes her longer to warm up to him. She's more cautious and less open around men than she is around women; she teases mHawke for his performance in bed and teases Carver over his interest in her, but praises fHawke for her performance in bed and encourages Bethany to explore her sexuality (dirty books, Blooming Rose, etc). She's used to being disparaged for being a shamelessly sexual woman, and a lot of that is reflected in how she approaches her relationships with men and women. She puts her foot down with male partners before they have a chance to slut shame and encourages women to embrace their sexual side. Even discounting all that, bisexuals with a preference exist and deserve to be represented, too. Even bisexuals with a HEAVY preference exist (see: the terms homoflexible and heteroflexible). A woman's not hurting or insulting men by generally leaning more toward women. That's just how she's wired. Got a line with Seb in party last night, asking Izzy why she is sticking around, I never heard it before, Bela left the guy speechless. Was hilarious.
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Post by Iddy on May 10, 2017 13:57:33 GMT
IIRC Isabela DOES get jealous over mHawke, but only if you do MotA in Act III. It's not that she's less emotionally invested in "Garrett" - it just takes her longer to warm up to him. She's more cautious and less open around men than she is around women; she teases mHawke for his performance in bed and teases Carver over his interest in her, but praises fHawke for her performance in bed and encourages Bethany to explore her sexuality (dirty books, Blooming Rose, etc). She's used to being disparaged for being a shamelessly sexual woman, and a lot of that is reflected in how she approaches her relationships with men and women. She puts her foot down with male partners before they have a chance to slut shame and encourages women to embrace their sexual side. Even discounting all that, bisexuals with a preference exist and deserve to be represented, too. Even bisexuals with a HEAVY preference exist (see: the terms homoflexible and heteroflexible). A woman's not hurting or insulting men by generally leaning more toward women. That's just how she's wired.That was totally unnecessary. I was specifically talking about how much your SO cares about you. I also find it funny that you should mention shaming, because Aveline is her most vocal critic and she is a woman.
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Post by vertigomez on May 10, 2017 14:06:47 GMT
That was totally unnecessary. I was specifically talking about how much your SO cares about you. Kay. And she does care about mHawke. It just takes her longer to warm up to him. Never said she wasn't. But she's not having sex with Aveline.
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crimsonn7
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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17,287
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Post by Crim on May 10, 2017 14:10:27 GMT
I love Sheryl's girls.
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Post by Iddy on May 10, 2017 14:11:32 GMT
That was totally unnecessary. I was specifically talking about how much your SO cares about you. Kay. And she does care about mHawke. It just takes her longer to warm up to him. Never said she wasn't. But she's not having sex with Aveline. You explained Isabela's fear based on the idea that men are her biggest critics.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
CrimsonN7
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Post by Crim on May 10, 2017 14:19:11 GMT
Kay. And she does care about mHawke. It just takes her longer to warm up to him. Never said she wasn't. But she's not having sex with Aveline. You explained Isabela's fear based on the idea that men are her biggest critics. Maybe she's more comfortable around women, maybe she has a preference, this isn't anything out of the ordinary. I know bisexual women like this IRL. Doesn't mean she loves mHawke any less, she just approaches those relationships differently.
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Post by vertigomez on May 10, 2017 14:22:03 GMT
You explained Isabela's fear based on the idea that men are her biggest critics. Again, she's not sleeping with Aveline. It's just my suspicion - based on her interactions fHawke and Bethany and her line about how "the world is cruel to women" - that she's had more trouble with male partners disrespecting her after sex than female partners. She's got her guard up. If this isn't Isabela's issue, then it really is just a matter of preference and that's also fine because bisexuality is not a zero-sum game.
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Pain Delta
N2
Go back to lesbian college to learn words
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 74 Likes: 169
inherit
8249
0
169
Pain Delta
Go back to lesbian college to learn words
74
May 2017
bunkinbronuts
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Pain Delta on May 10, 2017 14:49:26 GMT
That was totally unnecessary. I was specifically talking about how much your SO cares about you. Kay. And she does care about mHawke. It just takes her longer to warm up to him. Never said she wasn't. But she's not having sex with Aveline. or is she................
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Post by Iddy on May 10, 2017 15:16:30 GMT
You explained Isabela's fear based on the idea that men are her biggest critics. Again, she's not sleeping with Aveline. It's just my suspicion - based on her interactions fHawke and Bethany and her line about how "the world is cruel to women" - that she's had more trouble with male partners disrespecting her after sex than female partners. She's got her guard up. If this isn't Isabela's issue, then it really is just a matter of preference and that's also fine because bisexuality is not a zero-sum game. Think about it like this: What is the point of making a character available to both genders if the two options aren't equally good? You need to play femHawke in order to experience the full potential of Isabela's romance, so it seems like a waste of resources to include the watered down male version. Likewise, I very much doubt that female players enjoyed being treated like a flower by Anders. So if there is going to be a different treatment due to preference, you either do it without any disadvantage to the non-preferred gender or keep the romance arc identical for male and female protagonists alike. Bull and Josephine are a good example of the latter being done.
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Post by vertigomez on May 10, 2017 15:27:04 GMT
or is she................ I WISH. :dirty: Think about it like this: What is the point of making a character available to both genders if the two options aren't equally good? You need to play femHawke in order to experience the full potential of Isabela's romance, so it seems like a waste of resources to include the watered down male version. Likewise, I very much doubt that female players enjoyed being treated like a flower by Anders. So if there is going to be a different treatment due to preference, you either do it without any disadvantage to the non-preferred gender or keep the romance arc identical for male and female protagonists alike. Bull and Josephine are a good example of the latter being done. I romanced Isabela with mHawke and fHawke and thought both were equally good and that they both brought an interesting dynamic to the fore. Same with Merrill and Zevran and several other bisexual characters. I experienced "the full potential" of their romances regardless of whether I was romancing them as a man or a woman. I thought Anders' overly protective behavior with fHawke was obnoxious, but I feel the same about super chivalrous m'lady characters like Blackwall and Cullen, who are straight. But I don't view that behavior as a "disadvantage" so much as a character quirk. People are different. They react differently to different people. I don't have a problem with characters whose romance arcs are pretty much identical regardless of the PC's gender (Fenris, Josephine, Harding) but I also don't have a problem with bisexuals who relate to each gender a little differently (Leliana, Anders, Isabela). Different strokes.
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Post by Artemis on May 10, 2017 17:17:04 GMT
Isabela has a preference. Tough titty if the male player gets hurt. Solas dumps a female Lavellan and threatens to murder the whole world. Pretty sure that made a lot of players pretty sad :lmfao:
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Post by Iddy on May 10, 2017 17:49:12 GMT
Isabela has a preference. Tough titty if the male player gets hurt. Solas dumps a female Lavellan and threatens to murder the whole world. Pretty sure that made a lot of players pretty sad :lmfao: Wrong. I have something against that preference coming with a disadvantage in terms of experience. Leliana has a preference for women and I think it was done quite well. As for your comparison, change it to "Solas won't listen because Lavellan isn't a true elf" and then we have something similar. And in my opinion, tragedy actually improves the romance arc.
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our_lady_of_darkness
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Posts: 167 Likes: 327
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by our_lady_of_darkness on May 10, 2017 19:01:50 GMT
Isabela has a preference. Tough titty if the male player gets hurt. Solas dumps a female Lavellan and threatens to murder the whole world. Pretty sure that made a lot of players pretty sad :lmfao: Wrong. I have something against that preference coming with a disadvantage in terms of experience. Leliana has a preference for women and I think it was done quite well. As for your comparison, change it to "Solas won't listen because Lavellan isn't a true elf" and then we have something similar. And in my opinion, tragedy actually improves the romance arc. The said disadvantage, as you put it, is a subjective matter, since other people have pointed out that they find both options satisfying and don't feel deprived of experience. I find these differences quite interesting because they allow for slightly different playthroughs. But, like your sense of deprivation, my experience of actual enrichment in terms of replayability is entirely subjective.
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Post by Artemis on May 10, 2017 19:03:58 GMT
Isabela has a preference. Tough titty if the male player gets hurt. Solas dumps a female Lavellan and threatens to murder the whole world. Pretty sure that made a lot of players pretty sad :lmfao: Wrong. I have something against that preference coming with a disadvantage in terms of experience. Leliana has a preference for women and I think it was done quite well. lmao It was done "quite well" because it didn't hurt the fragile male ego.
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Post by Iddy on May 10, 2017 19:13:05 GMT
Wrong. I have something against that preference coming with a disadvantage in terms of experience. Leliana has a preference for women and I think it was done quite well. lmao It was done "quite well" because it didn't hurt the fragile male ego. I don't typically draw any correlation between a person's behavior and their gender, but that's just me.
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Mihura
N4
Eat shit, shit-eaters!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: MihuraL
Posts: 1,302 Likes: 2,754
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Eat shit, shit-eaters!
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Mihura on May 10, 2017 19:55:09 GMT
lmao It was done "quite well" because it didn't hurt the fragile male ego. I don't typically draw any correlation between a person's behavior and their gender, but that's just me. Really? how is that possible in our world? people are systematically raise with that type of bias. Unless you are from Themyscira.
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