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Post by Iddy on May 10, 2017 20:26:44 GMT
I don't typically draw any correlation between a person's behavior and their gender, but that's just me. Really? how is that possible in our world? people are systematically raise with that type of bias. Unless you are from Themyscira. Not that hard. All it takes is to believe in something called individuality. There is no such thing as a flaw that is "typical of men", "typical of women" or any race and sexual orientation. Such ideas perpetuate hate and divide us even further. In any case, this is the last I'll be saying about off-topic subjects like prejudice or other people's opinion of me.
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Eat shit, shit-eaters!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: MihuraL
Posts: 1,302 Likes: 2,754
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Post by Mihura on May 10, 2017 20:50:31 GMT
Really? how is that possible in our world? people are systematically raise with that type of bias. Unless you are from Themyscira. Not that hard. All it takes is to believe in something called individuality. There is no such thing as a flaw that is "typical of men", "typical of women" or any race and sexual orientation. Such ideas perpetuate hate and divide us even further. In any case, this is the last I'll be saying about off-topic subjects like prejudice or other people's opinion of me. It is actually on topic because it is connect to the gender of the LIs. Our current culture system is base on binary gender concepts, there is no escape from it. Most people are that ignorant when comes to assuming other people genders, behaviors or worth, that is why the games reflects that reality. There was actually a real opportunity with ME for a more equal vision but in the end it is even worse than DA. So no those ideas do not divide us or perpetuate hate, those ideas show that it is human to have difference tastes, bias and "typical behaviors". What shouldnt be normal is assuming everyone is like that or wants to be like that but there isnt nothing wrong if some are "typical".
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Post by Iddy on May 11, 2017 0:46:46 GMT
Not that hard. All it takes is to believe in something called individuality. There is no such thing as a flaw that is "typical of men", "typical of women" or any race and sexual orientation. Such ideas perpetuate hate and divide us even further. In any case, this is the last I'll be saying about off-topic subjects like prejudice or other people's opinion of me. It is actually on topic because it is connect to the gender of the LIs. Our current culture system is base on binary gender concepts, there is no escape from it. Most people are that ignorant when comes to assuming other people genders, behaviors or worth, that is why the games reflects that reality. There was actually a real opportunity with ME for a more equal vision but in the end it is even worse than DA. So no those ideas do not divide us or perpetuate hate, those ideas show that it is human to have difference tastes, bias and "typical behaviors". What shouldnt be normal is assuming everyone is like that or wants to be like that but there isnt nothing wrong if some are "typical". That's not what I was referring to. I meant negative association like "women are weak", "men are evil", "black people are prone to crime" and so forth.
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N4
Eat shit, shit-eaters!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: MihuraL
Posts: 1,302 Likes: 2,754
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Post by Mihura on May 11, 2017 0:49:00 GMT
It is actually on topic because it is connect to the gender of the LIs. Our current culture system is base on binary gender concepts, there is no escape from it. Most people are that ignorant when comes to assuming other people genders, behaviors or worth, that is why the games reflects that reality. There was actually a real opportunity with ME for a more equal vision but in the end it is even worse than DA. So no those ideas do not divide us or perpetuate hate, those ideas show that it is human to have difference tastes, bias and "typical behaviors". What shouldnt be normal is assuming everyone is like that or wants to be like that but there isnt nothing wrong if some are "typical". That's not what I was referring to. I meant negative association like "women are weak", "men are evil", "black people are prone to crime" and so forth. Oh that but bi people having a preference is not negative.
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Post by Iddy on May 11, 2017 0:57:14 GMT
That's not what I was referring to. I meant negative association like "women are weak", "men are evil", "black people are prone to crime" and so forth. Oh that but bi people having a preference is not negative. Indeed.
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N4
Eat shit, shit-eaters!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: MihuraL
Posts: 1,302 Likes: 2,754
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Post by Mihura on May 11, 2017 1:01:39 GMT
Oh that but bi people having a preference is not negative. Indeed. So we agree? I am confuse.
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Post by Iddy on May 11, 2017 1:50:41 GMT
So we agree? I am confuse. As mysterious as the Forgotten Ones.
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Post by fylimar on May 14, 2017 11:07:20 GMT
Again, she's not sleeping with Aveline. It's just my suspicion - based on her interactions fHawke and Bethany and her line about how "the world is cruel to women" - that she's had more trouble with male partners disrespecting her after sex than female partners. She's got her guard up. If this isn't Isabela's issue, then it really is just a matter of preference and that's also fine because bisexuality is not a zero-sum game. Think about it like this: What is the point of making a character available to both genders if the two options aren't equally good? You need to play femHawke in order to experience the full potential of Isabela's romance, so it seems like a waste of resources to include the watered down male version. Likewise, I very much doubt that female players enjoyed being treated like a flower by Anders. So if there is going to be a different treatment due to preference, you either do it without any disadvantage to the non-preferred gender or keep the romance arc identical for male and female protagonists alike. Bull and Josephine are a good example of the latter being done. As a female player who prefers to play female characters if available, I can assure you, that I have no problem at all with the Anders romance. I'm glad his romance is in the game for females too. And about Isabella: She tells her backstory at some point and if I remember correctly, it involved either her mother or her treated badly by men (I'm not sure, if she told her story in the comic or in the game though, I read the comic a short while ago and I think, she told the story tehre during her Qunari captivity). Plus her marriage wasn't that happy either, so I guess it is natural, that she is more cautious around men. But imo that adds depth to the mHawke/Isabella romance: he shows her, that she can trust a man as much as a woman. But I guess it comes down to personal opinion On another note (not related to you Iddy, just crossed my mind, when this discussion started towards gender related views and now it wants out): I always wondered, why many people (female and male player alike) view Isabella as a slut, but never complain about Iron Bull, Zevran or Anders, who have had a lot of different sexual partners too. Imo the views about a sexual active woman and a sexual active male are still quite different in our society. I personally don't care about it, if someone likes sex, by all means - go on having fun as long as it is mutual. But I often read about Isa being a slut or 'unclean' - probably because of the scene in Anders clinic. Who says, that Anders hasn't catched something himself along the way? He wouldn't have to seek out help, he can help himself. Iron Bull can probably ask Dalish and be sure, she wouldn't tell anyone, because then she would have to admit, that she is a mage. And Zevran might have gone through his shares of illnesses too. Just a thought, that popped up - maybe it is worth it's own thread. Iddy just read that: That is a commendable attitude, that not many people possess even today - kudos for that
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Post by Catilina on May 14, 2017 11:21:49 GMT
Think about it like this: What is the point of making a character available to both genders if the two options aren't equally good? You need to play femHawke in order to experience the full potential of Isabela's romance, so it seems like a waste of resources to include the watered down male version. Likewise, I very much doubt that female players enjoyed being treated like a flower by Anders. So if there is going to be a different treatment due to preference, you either do it without any disadvantage to the non-preferred gender or keep the romance arc identical for male and female protagonists alike. Bull and Josephine are a good example of the latter being done. As a female player who prefers to play female characters if available, I can assure you, that I have no problem at all with the Anders romance. I'm glad his romance is in the game for females too. And about Isabella: She tells her backstory at some point and if I remember correctly, it involved either her mother or her treated badly by men (I'm not sure, if she told her story in the comic or in the game though, I read the comic a short while ago and I think, she told the story tehre during her Qunari captivity). Plus her marriage wasn't that happy either, so I guess it is natural, that she is more cautious around men. But imo that adds depth to the mHawke/Isabella romance: he shows her, that she can trust a man as much as a woman. But I guess it comes down to personal opinion On aother note (not related to you Iddy, just crossed my mind, when this discussion started towards gender related views and now it wants out): I always wondered, why many people (female and male player alike) view Isabella as a slut, but never complain about Iron Bull, Zevran or Anders, who have had a lot of different sexual partners too. Imo the views about a sexual active woman and a sexual active male are still quite different in our society. I personally don't care about it, if someone likes sex, by all means - go on having fun as long as it is mutual. But I often read about Isa being a slut or 'unclean' - probably because of the scene in Anders clinic. Who says, that Anders hasn't catched something himself along the way? He wouldn't have to seek out help, he can help himself. Iron Bull can probably ask Dalish and be sure, she wouldn't tell anyone, because then she would have to admit, that she is a mage. And Zevran might have gone through his shares of illnesses too. Just a thought, that popped up - maybe it is worth it's own thread. Iddy just read that: That is a comendable attitude, that not many people possess even today - kudos for that I have just only problem with Anders' character, that he doesn't talk about his relationship with Karl to fem!Hawke. This is a disappointing: seems his love with a man some shameful thing. I know that explained by writers with that Anders didn't want to tell about his exboyfriend to his potential girlfrend, but this seems cheap explanation: at act 1 Hawke can flirting Anders, but the relationship will fulfill only 3-4 years later, And Anders quite reluctant to start it with fem!Hawke (I don't want to hurt you... blah, blah.). He couldn't know the future...
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Post by Rascoth on May 14, 2017 11:43:55 GMT
As a female player who prefers to play female characters if available, I can assure you, that I have no problem at all with the Anders romance. I'm glad his romance is in the game for females too. I'm really glad his romance is available for both femHawke and mHawke, but my reaction was different than yours. I love femHawke and Jo Wyatt's performance, so I play exclusively as femHawke. So as someone like that - when after my first pt I learned about the difference in romance - I was royally pissed. Keeping everything the same is not the best option as well, so I completely understand that some changes might be required. But not speaking about something as important as his relationship with Karl... I felt like whoever made this decision, decided that those playing femHawke don't need/want that part of his character ark. Yeah right Locking it behind dialogue option for both genders would be much, much better than completely lock femHawke players out of it.
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Post by fylimar on May 14, 2017 12:13:59 GMT
Catilina and RascothAbout Anders and Karl. There is a mod that fixes the dialogue. Now you can have the Karl dialogue with a female li too if you like. I don't know which version I prefer: It is always a bit awkward talking to the new partner about an old love. In Anders case, it might be understandable, because he probably wants his new love to know, why he did go all glowing madness in the cathedral when facing tranquil Karl. So both versions have their ups and downs I guess.
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Post by Catilina on May 14, 2017 12:24:18 GMT
Catilina and Rascoth About Anders and Karl. There is a mod that fixes the dialogue. Now you can have the Karl dialogue with a female li too if you like. I don't know which version I prefer: It is always a bit awkward talking to the new partner about an old love. In Anders case, it might be understandable, because he probably wants his new love to know, why he did go all glowing madness in the cathedral when facing tranquil Karl. So both versions have their ups and downs I guess. At the Act 1 they are not lovers yet. This probably doesn't seems, because the game is short enough, but still 3-4 years between Karl's death and their love relationship starting.
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Post by Rascoth on May 14, 2017 12:24:42 GMT
Catilina and Rascoth About Anders and Karl. There is a mod that fixes the dialogue. Now you can have the Karl dialogue with a female li too if you like. I don't know which version I prefer: It is always a bit awkward talking to the new partner about an old love. In Anders case, it might be understandable, because he probably wants his new love to know, why he did go all glowing madness in the cathedral when facing tranquil Karl. So both versions have their ups and downs I guess. Yeah, I know about that mod and ponder about installing it. Still, an option for femHawke without a mod should be in game from the beginning. The thing is, Anders and Hawke don't become a thing for next 3 years. So Anders is not talking with his new love/new partner. He talks to a person that he might feel attracted to, but nothing of lover/partner magnitude at that time. Rather someone he thinks he may actually trust a little and decides to explain his behaviour (femHawke in vanilla gets only part of his explanation). Well, I'm aware not everyone would like to hear it or at least not with every Hawke, that's why I mentioned dialogue lock/explore option, rather than gender gate. Edit: Seems Catilina 'd me.
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Post by fylimar on May 14, 2017 12:55:43 GMT
Catilina and Rascoth About Anders and Karl. There is a mod that fixes the dialogue. Now you can have the Karl dialogue with a female li too if you like. I don't know which version I prefer: It is always a bit awkward talking to the new partner about an old love. In Anders case, it might be understandable, because he probably wants his new love to know, why he did go all glowing madness in the cathedral when facing tranquil Karl. So both versions have their ups and downs I guess. Yeah, I know about that mod and ponder about installing it. Still, an option for femHawke without a mod should be in game from the beginning. The thing is, Anders and Hawke don't become a thing for next 3 years. So Anders is not talking with his new love/new partner. He talks to a person that he might feel attracted to, but nothing of lover/partner magnitude at that time. Rather someone he thinks he may actually trust a little and decides to explain his behaviour (femHawke in vanilla gets only part of his explanation). Well, I'm aware not everyone would like to hear it or at least not with every Hawke, that's why I mentioned dialogue lock/explore option, rather than gender gate. Edit: Seems Catilina 'd me. I know, that there is a lot of time between the events in the church and Anders explaining and I don't know, if it makes sense, but that would for me the only explanation, why he would bring up an old love interest, otherwise, I found it kind of awkward to bring it up. So this is more my personal explanation for the Karl dialogue
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Post by Rascoth on May 14, 2017 13:04:01 GMT
Yeah, I know about that mod and ponder about installing it. Still, an option for femHawke without a mod should be in game from the beginning. The thing is, Anders and Hawke don't become a thing for next 3 years. So Anders is not talking with his new love/new partner. He talks to a person that he might feel attracted to, but nothing of lover/partner magnitude at that time. Rather someone he thinks he may actually trust a little and decides to explain his behaviour (femHawke in vanilla gets only part of his explanation). Well, I'm aware not everyone would like to hear it or at least not with every Hawke, that's why I mentioned dialogue lock/explore option, rather than gender gate. Edit: Seems Catilina 'd me. I know, that there is a lot of time between the events in the church and Anders explaining and I don't know, if it makes sense, but that would for me the only explanation, why he would bring up an old love interest, otherwise, I found it kind of awkward to bring it up. So this is more my personal explanation for the Karl dialogue Hmnmn... I have a feeling you're confusing conversations. Anders brings up his relationship with Karl in first conversation with him after properly finishing Tranquility, so there's not a lot of time (or none if you start that conversation right away) between events in the Chantry and his explanation.
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Post by fylimar on May 14, 2017 13:15:56 GMT
I know, that there is a lot of time between the events in the church and Anders explaining and I don't know, if it makes sense, but that would for me the only explanation, why he would bring up an old love interest, otherwise, I found it kind of awkward to bring it up. So this is more my personal explanation for the Karl dialogue Hmnmn... I have a feeling you're confusing conversations. Anders brings up his relationship with Karl in first conversation with him after properly finishing Tranquility, so there's not a lot of time (or none if you start that conversation right away) between events in the Chantry and his explanation. I might be. It's been a while since I did the Anders romance. But if I remember correctly, he is interested pretty soon after meeting Hawke, so he still might care, what Hawke thinks about his actions in the church and therefore he explained it. It's less awkward, because they aren't together (I only used the modded dialogue once and thought, it came up, after Anders and Hawke became an item, my bad), but still I think both versions (telling Hawke about Karl/not telling Hawke about Karl) are equally justified - he coudl wish to explain his actions or he could just want to leave the past behind.
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Post by Rascoth on May 14, 2017 13:23:28 GMT
Hmnmn... I have a feeling you're confusing conversations. Anders brings up his relationship with Karl in first conversation with him after properly finishing Tranquility, so there's not a lot of time (or none if you start that conversation right away) between events in the Chantry and his explanation. I might be. It's been a while since I did the Anders romance. But if I remember correctly, he is interested pretty soon after meeting Hawke, so he still might care, what Hawke thinks about his actions in the church and therefore he explained it. It's less awkward, because they aren't together (I only used the modded dialogue once and thought, it came up, after Anders and Hawke became an item, my bad), but still I think both versions (telling Hawke about Karl/not telling Hawke about Karl) are equally justified - he coudl wish to explain his actions or he could just want to leave the past behind. Np, no one asks us to remember every line every fictional character ever made Or do they? Agreed about last part. That's why now, pardon me, but I'm gonna sound like broken record it should be dialogue exploration option and/or gated behind the way Hawke responds, not gender-gated.
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 14, 2017 20:12:36 GMT
As a female player who prefers to play female characters if available, I can assure you, that I have no problem at all with the Anders romance. I'm glad his romance is in the game for females too. I'm really glad his romance is available for both femHawke and mHawke, but my reaction was different than yours. I love femHawke and Jo Wyatt's performance, so I play exclusively as femHawke. So as someone like that - when after my first pt I learned about the difference in romance - I was royally pissed. Keeping everything the same is not the best option as well, so I completely understand that some changes might be required. But not speaking about something as important as his relationship with Karl... I felt like whoever made this decision, decided that those playing femHawke don't need/want that part of his character ark. Yeah right Locking it behind dialogue option for both genders would be much, much better than completely lock femHawke players out of it. I don't like the difference, either, but that's not the reason for it. The reason essentially is as Catilina said above: Anders is reluctant to reveal a m/m relationship to a woman he is interested in. That has to do with Anders's feelings, not Hawke's. "... somehow baffled that Anders would not mention his relationship with a man to a woman ( in what world would someone do this?)..." The problem I have with that attitude is that it is forcing real-world views into Thedas, which it supposedly does not have. In fact, most of Anders's conversation with male Hawke seems out of place considering how Thedas is supposed to be.
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Post by Rascoth on May 14, 2017 20:27:13 GMT
I'm really glad his romance is available for both femHawke and mHawke, but my reaction was different than yours. I love femHawke and Jo Wyatt's performance, so I play exclusively as femHawke. So as someone like that - when after my first pt I learned about the difference in romance - I was royally pissed. Keeping everything the same is not the best option as well, so I completely understand that some changes might be required. But not speaking about something as important as his relationship with Karl... I felt like whoever made this decision, decided that those playing femHawke don't need/want that part of his character ark. Yeah right Locking it behind dialogue option for both genders would be much, much better than completely lock femHawke players out of it. I don't like the difference, either, but that's not the reason for it. The reason essentially is as Catilina said above: Anders is reluctant to reveal a m/m relationship to a woman he is interested in. That has to do with Anders's feelings, not Hawke's. "... somehow baffled that Anders would not mention his relationship with a man to a woman ( in what world would someone do this?)..." The problem I have with that attitude is that it is forcing real-world views into Thedas, which it supposedly does not have. In fact, most of Anders's conversation with male Hawke seems out of place considering how Thedas is supposed to be. I understand that. Really. I'm not asking for Anders to reveal it like it was nothing. As I stated before, my preferable way would be for Anders to reveal it basing on Hawke's actions/dialogue choices. Hell, I wouldn't mind if femHawke had to try harder to get it out of him. But an option at all to get that dialogue would be wonderful. Seriously, I would happily take a bit cut version of this dialogue, omitting what kind of relationship he had with Karl (it's like one sentence, important one, but still one), while keep the rest of his explanation/rant, as long as it was there in place of first of many "I'll hurt you" variations.
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Post by Catilina on May 14, 2017 20:39:02 GMT
I'm really glad his romance is available for both femHawke and mHawke, but my reaction was different than yours. I love femHawke and Jo Wyatt's performance, so I play exclusively as femHawke. So as someone like that - when after my first pt I learned about the difference in romance - I was royally pissed. Keeping everything the same is not the best option as well, so I completely understand that some changes might be required. But not speaking about something as important as his relationship with Karl... I felt like whoever made this decision, decided that those playing femHawke don't need/want that part of his character ark. Yeah right Locking it behind dialogue option for both genders would be much, much better than completely lock femHawke players out of it. I don't like the difference, either, but that's not the reason for it. The reason essentially is as Catilina said above: Anders is reluctant to reveal a m/m relationship to a woman he is interested in. That has to do with Anders's feelings, not Hawke's. "... somehow baffled that Anders would not mention his relationship with a man to a woman ( in what world would someone do this?)..." The problem I have with that attitude is that it is forcing real-world views into Thedas, which it supposedly does not have. In fact, most of Anders's conversation with male Hawke seems out of place considering how Thedas is supposed to be. Anyhow: the player, who only play with fem!Hawke, lost an important information, so this is a very stupid decision. Should have been a little better, than this.
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Post by turianlannister on May 18, 2017 0:28:10 GMT
Bisexuals with preferences do exist, though I hate the slant towards them being completely heterosexual outside of the player character romance and essentially being playersexual. From her nomad dialogue Vetra seems to prefer women over men, I can recall *Her talking about finding Asari attractive *Talking about either finding Suvi's voice or Suvi herself attractive And zero about men she found attractive
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Post by caladrius on May 18, 2017 3:30:12 GMT
It annoys me that they usually have a preference, tbh. Nearly every bisexual male they've ever written has a female preference and only talks about women and/or past female lovers. We've only ever had two options available for m/m in any game, so that sucks, basically. The only option for us in DA:O was Zevran and he has a massive female preference. It really sucks getting the least amount of content and still feeling unattractive to your LI. I would rather they didn't have a preference and either didn't talk a lot about other people or tried to balance the dialogue somewhat. It gets old have the same stock bi guys that constantly go on and on about women.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2017 20:54:56 GMT
I wanted to say that my "Isabela is a slut" is not due to her bedding other folks in the past, it's due to her first asking about my PC's relationship with Fenris and then immediately starting to attempt to seduce him in front of the PC. In multiple dialogues. At the same time, she continues to treat the PC well, if it is on the friendship path, as if such things are totally normal between friends. I have not yet romanced Isabela, so I will see how that looks from the other side of the fence.
Zevran from what I see does get a certain amount of negativity due to his profession. I did not really find his romance particularly tiltilating due to that specific "fallen men" background and I did not feel I get to discover the "golden heart" really in the course of the romance, as it came really late in the dialogues. TBH, I was too busy to be appalled at Alistair's sudden propensity to jump beds to worry about how I feel about Zevran.
With Anders, I do not get it why Karl was left out for female PCs, because in my SWTOR experience it's male players who have more troubles dealing with homosexual or bisexual characters that may became romantically involved with the pc. For me his relationship with Karl might not be mentioned, but it is so canon, I don't really feel a female gets shortchanged. I guess she just knows. Anders' follow up attachment to Hawke tbh cleanly erases any shade of doubt that whatever happens in the past, Hawke's his last love. And, well, that's incredible, because it's harder to convey than the first love or the One True Love. Anders just attaches to Hawke so desperately and with such a need in him, that it's hard to get concerned about exclusivity imo.
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moderately incensed firmicute
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Stay strong, and queer!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 186 Likes: 435
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moderately incensed firmicute
Stay strong, and queer!
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Apr 18, 2017 12:48:04 GMT
April 2017
firmicute
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by moderately incensed firmicute on May 19, 2017 14:40:47 GMT
And when a desire demon tempts her, it offers a ship full of men. Isabela is pretty down-the-middle. Most real people, even bi people, have more of a preference than she does. A dude Hawke isn't in competition with lady Hawkes (or vice versa). The lady Hawkes don't exist, in his universe. Why does it matter if someone's lover would pick an opposite-gender version of them, if such a person existed? There is no opposite-gender copy of them running around. It's like worrying about a version of yourself with no character flaws stealing your lover. Sure, hypothetically that person would be more appealling. But they don't exist. As I recall it, it was the getting a brand new ship part that got her attention. It matters because I'm not talking about what Hawke feels as a character, but the players themselves. And in my opinion, it just isn't the way the writers should handle bi LIs at all.
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Post by Iddy on May 19, 2017 14:43:31 GMT
Huh. This is still going?
Uh... I'll just smile and nod in agreement as the general response.
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