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Post by leadintea on May 24, 2017 14:54:47 GMT
Personally I don't mind bi LIs having preferences, but I do despise the fact that all bi males always seem to have a preference for females.
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Post by phoray on May 25, 2017 2:21:18 GMT
Merrill and Josephine don't prefer one sex over the other. Fenris doesn't either if you don't count him and Isabela developing a friends with benefits relationship if neither are romanced. I didn't say there are none. I even mentioned the Iron Bull as an example. What I meant was that I'd like it better if there weren't any BI LIs who display a particular preference for either sex, because it can be pretty shitty. For an instance, some players don't like the fact that Anders only talks about Karl to a male Hawke and I can't blame them. Bisexuals exist that prefer one gender over another. There is even a thing where they "feel straight for a while" then feel "gay for a while". Bisexuality is not perfectly even. Sexuality I think is generally referred to as being on a spectrum, but yet others prefer the description of their sexuality and gender as more of a sphere. Sorry bisexual LIs having a mild leaning one way or the other messes with your head space. They don't love you any less for not being their perfect preference.
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Post by Iddy on May 25, 2017 11:14:27 GMT
I didn't say there are none. I even mentioned the Iron Bull as an example. What I meant was that I'd like it better if there weren't any BI LIs who display a particular preference for either sex, because it can be pretty shitty. For an instance, some players don't like the fact that Anders only talks about Karl to a male Hawke and I can't blame them. Bisexuals exist that prefer one gender over another. There is even a thing where they "feel straight for a while" then feel "gay for a while". Bisexuality is not perfectly even. Sexuality I think is generally referred to as being on a spectrum, but yet others prefer the description of their sexuality and gender as more of a sphere. Sorry bisexual LIs having a mild leaning one way or the other messes with your head space. They don't love you any less for not being their perfect preference.
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Post by phoray on May 25, 2017 11:57:32 GMT
*rolls eyes* oh, I thought we were having a real discussion. I didn't know it was one of those "declare opinion and then mock anyone for disagreement" threads.
Have fun.
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Post by shechinah on May 25, 2017 12:34:51 GMT
I didn't say there are none. I even mentioned the Iron Bull as an example. What I meant was that I'd like it better if there weren't any BI LIs who display a particular preference for either sex, because it can be pretty shitty. For an instance, some players don't like the fact that Anders only talks about Karl to a male Hawke and I can't blame them.Back in the day that wasn't about Anders' bisexuality, from what I can recall, it was about Anders' playersexuality. Basically, Anders was gay or bisexual when romanced by a male Hawke and straight when romanced by a female Hawke. Anders' romantic involvement with Karl was believed by plenty of players to have been left out of the romance path with a female Hawke for this reason. His sexuality was decided by the player and that "edited" his past. That was part of the criticism towards Dragon Age's playersexuality based on what I can remember. In short, it wasn't about Anders being bisexual and showing a preference: it was about maintaining playersexuality. Anders was straight when romanced by a female Hawke. Anders mentions Karl as a previous love because he's bisexual when romanced by a male Hawke. That's how I remember some of the criticisms back then, at least. It's been a while. As far as I can recall, the characters weren't even confirmed as bisexual until some time after the game's release. Prior to that confirmation, they were playersexual. The exception to this was Isabella because she'd previously been established as obviously interested in men and women. Anders to half a degree because he'd previously been etablished as obviously interested in women. Speaking of which, another criticism was that some people felt that Anders' sexuality had been retconned by playersexuality to make him a romance option for male Hawkes. This whole thing is part of why some people consider playersexuality to detract from characterization.
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Post by shechinah on May 25, 2017 12:43:41 GMT
Bisexuals exist that prefer one gender over another. There is even a thing where they "feel straight for a while" then feel "gay for a while". Bisexuality is not perfectly even. Sexuality I think is generally referred to as being on a spectrum, but yet others prefer the description of their sexuality and gender as more of a sphere. Sorry bisexual LIs having a mild leaning one way or the other messes with your head space. They don't love you any less for not being their perfect preference. Yes, there are bisexual people who have a preference. As you say, it does not mean that they love their partner less. I understand not wanting every bisexual option to express a preference or wanting the preferences to be switched up but when it make sense for a character to talk about it like Isabella or Zevran then I don't see why they shouldn't. It make sense for their character and again, it shouldn't be taken as them loving their significant other less for not being women. Apply to it something else like hair color: just because someone prefers blonds does not mean that they love their brunet significant other any less. Blond being a preference does not make brunet a dislike. If mitigation is really need then think of it like this: if you're with someone then chances are that you prefer said someone to others.
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Post by Iddy on May 25, 2017 13:06:14 GMT
*rolls eyes* oh, I thought we were having a real discussion. I didn't know it was one of those "declare opinion and then mock anyone for disagreement" threads. Have fun. I thought we were having fun with some friendly mud slinging. Some people just start things and then decide they don't wanna play anymore.
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Post by Catilina on May 25, 2017 13:48:06 GMT
I didn't say there are none. I even mentioned the Iron Bull as an example. What I meant was that I'd like it better if there weren't any BI LIs who display a particular preference for either sex, because it can be pretty shitty. For an instance, some players don't like the fact that Anders only talks about Karl to a male Hawke and I can't blame them.Back in the day that wasn't about Anders' bisexuality, from what I can recall, it was about Anders' playersexuality. Basically, Anders was gay or bisexual when romanced by a male Hawke and straight when romanced by a female Hawke. Anders' romantic involvement with Karl was believed by plenty of players to have been left out of the romance path with a female Hawke for this reason. His sexuality was decided by the player and that "edited" his past. That was part of the criticism towards Dragon Age's playersexuality based on what I can remember. In short, it wasn't about Anders being bisexual and showing a preference: it was about maintaining playersexuality. Anders was straight when romanced by a female Hawke. Anders mentions Karl as a previous love because he's bisexual when romanced by a male Hawke. That's how I remember some of the criticisms back then, at least. It's been a while. As far as I can recall, the characters weren't even confirmed as bisexual until some time after the game's release. Prior to that confirmation, they were playersexual. The exception to this was Isabella because she'd previously been established as obviously interested in men and women. Anders to half a degree because he'd previously been etablished as obviously interested in women. Speaking of which, another criticism was that some people felt that Anders' sexuality had been retconned by playersexuality to make him a romance option for male Hawkes. This whole thing is part of why some people consider playersexuality to detract from characterization. Anders wasn't straight, just because he shows interest in women in DAA. His teasing with Nathaniel was ambiguous. Jennifer Helper wrote him as bisexual, this wasn't post-factum change, but I don't know, why she treated the straight romance in this way. The explain was, that Anders didn't want to speak about his ex-boyfriend to his future girlfriend. But I think, that's quite lame (they wasn't lovers yet for 3-4years...). (Bioware/Helper afraid, that this would distracted the straight female gamers?)
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Post by shechinah on May 25, 2017 15:28:05 GMT
Anders wasn't straight, just because he shows interest in women in DAA. His teasing with Nathaniel was ambiguous. Jennifer Helper wrote him as bisexual, this wasn't post-factum change, but I don't know, why she treated the straight romance in this way. The explain was, that Anders didn't want to speak about his ex-boyfriend to his future girlfriend. But I think, that's quite lame (they wasn't lovers yet for 3-4years...). (Bioware/Helper afraid, that this would distracted the straight female gamers?) I don't think I said Anders was straight because he showed interest in women in DAA? I just said that Anders' interest in women was established previously. I didn't mean that Anders was definitely straight. I wasn't one of the people who felt his sexuality had been retconned. I've previously cited the same example of that bit of dialogue with Nathaniel as an example of why I thought his sexuality was ambigious. I'm just explaining what the complaints back then was first about based on what I can remember. Again, Anders didn't hide his romantic involvement with Karl because he was bisexual with a preference for women. That's why I don't feel he can be used as an example of that. It may be my perception of the past clouded things but as I remember it, the characters were playersexual and that the developers tried to backpedal on this later on with the final result being the confirmation of all of the romanceable characters as bisexual, not playersexual. It didn't make sense that Anders didn't want to talk about his love for Karl with a female Hawke when he has no problem doing so with a male Hawke. He even gives a speech to a male Hawke about not finding anything wrong with finding love with someone who's similar to him in response to Hawke being taken by his relationship to Karl. I don't think it was worry for offended people that prompted the editing of Anders' dialogue: I think it was just playersexuality that they later regretted and retconed into official bisexuality. Anders was a special situation because he's the only one that references a previous romance. Neither Fenris nor Merill had previous relationships or romantic situations so their dialogue didn't need to be edited depending on the gender of their romancer. Isabella was established as bisexual in the previous game. I think the rushed nature of Dragon Age 2 led to playersexuality being implemented because it's been stated as being easier on resources but again, I think that they later regretted this decision.
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Post by shechinah on May 25, 2017 15:35:40 GMT
I thought we were having fun with some friendly mud slinging. Some people just start things and then decide they don't wanna play anymore. "What I meant was that I'd like it better if there weren't any BI LIs who display a particular preference for either sex, because it can be pretty shitty." can be interpreted as you saying that it's shitty that real life bisexuals have a preference because, well, having a preference is a real thing that some real life bisexuals have. It may not be your intent but I think that's how it came across. I think was why phoray included this: "Sorry bisexual LIs having a mild leaning one way or the other messes with your head space. They don't love you any less for not being their perfect preference."Bisexuals don't have a control over their preferences. People typically don't, in my experiences. Bisexuals are attracted to both genders so it's not odd that some would develop a preference just as people develop preferences to other things. It's a fact. Again, I can understand not wanting every bisexual to express a preference or to express the same preference but when it make sense for them to talk openly about their sexuality like Isabella and Zevran does then it's not out-of-character and it's not unrealistic for them to have one. As phoray says, it does not mean that the character loves the player character any less. Again, if the character is with the player character then chances are that they prefer the player character to others. There really shouldn't be doubt about the character's feelings for the player character. That's like saying that somebody preferring blonds means that they love their brunet partner less. It's insecurity but it's irrational insecurity basically. This is especially when the character goes through hell for the player character. I think they've more than proven their love is sincere and true even if the player character don't have those bouncing breasts that they like to watch during sex.
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 25, 2017 16:15:56 GMT
I thought we were having fun with some friendly mud slinging. Some people just start things and then decide they don't wanna play anymore. "What I meant was that I'd like it better if there weren't any BI LIs who display a particular preference for either sex, because it can be pretty shitty." can be interpreted as you saying that it's shitty that real life bisexuals have a preference because, well, having a preference is a real thing that some real life bisexuals have. It may not be your intent but I think that's how it came across. I think was why phoray included this: "Sorry bisexual LIs having a mild leaning one way or the other messes with your head space. They don't love you any less for not being their perfect preference."Not to me. I immediately thought of examples like Zevran. It IS shitty that Zevran specifically states how he prefers a woman's curves and doesn't stop talking about women, even as a male Warden is romancing him. Yeah, real bi people have preferences. We all have preferences about various things. But this isn't real life, it's a game, and when the only m/m romance option says those things, it kinda sucks for those players.
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Post by shechinah on May 25, 2017 16:32:31 GMT
Not to me. I immediately thought of examples like Zevran. It IS shitty that Zevran specifically states how he prefers a woman's curves and doesn't stop talking about women, even as a male Warden is romancing him. Then is the problem then that the character has a preference and not that they keep talking about said preference or that all the gay romances have the same preference?
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2017 16:51:27 GMT
Ah, I'd rather my LI focused on my PC's finer qualities, than went on and on and on about his or her former or present lovers of either gender and their finer qualities.
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 25, 2017 16:58:33 GMT
Not to me. I immediately thought of examples like Zevran. It IS shitty that Zevran specifically states how he prefers a woman's curves and doesn't stop talking about women, even as a male Warden is romancing him. Then is the problem then that the character has a preference and not that they keep talking about said preference or that all the gay romances have the same preference? The problem is that the preference is done to an excessive amount. But I do also consider it a problem that this mainly applies to the male characters and not the female ones. Both Leliana and Josephine are portrayed in a different way in their bisexuality than are Zevran and Iron Bull.
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Post by shechinah on May 25, 2017 17:09:10 GMT
Then is the problem then that the character has a preference and not that they keep talking about said preference or that all the gay romances have the same preference? The problem is that the preference is done to an excessive amount. But I do also consider it a problem that this mainly applies to the male characters and not the female ones. Both Leliana and Josephine are portrayed in a different way in their bisexuality than are Zevran and Iron Bull. It seems to me then that the solution is not to do away with preferences entirely but to add variety and limit excessive mentions. Isabella displays a preference towards women but it's not excessively mentioned, Josephine don't display a preference at all and Leliana's preference for women is not verbally displayed by her. A similar variety could be introduced to male characters that are bisexual so it feels natural the same way it does for the female characters.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2017 17:18:35 GMT
The problem is that the preference is done to an excessive amount. But I do also consider it a problem that this mainly applies to the male characters and not the female ones. Both Leliana and Josephine are portrayed in a different way in their bisexuality than are Zevran and Iron Bull. It seems to me then that the solution is not to do away with preferences entirely but to add variety and limit excessive mentions. Isabella displays a preference towards women but it's not excessively mentioned, Josephine don't display a preference at all and Leliana's preference for women is not verbally displayed by her. A similar variety could be introduced to male characters that are bisexual so it feels natural the same way it does for the female characters. Dunno, in my game, Isabela's mentions were excessive and all directed towards one man in particular. My committed LI. It did not feel natural at all. I have never heard her talking about any females in her life or hit on Aveline, Merrill or female PC in the same aggressive, focused and dead-determined fashion. I do not really see Isabela as a good example of how to go about subtle bisexual hints.
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Post by shechinah on May 25, 2017 18:24:21 GMT
Dunno, in my game, Isabela's mentions were excessive and all directed towards one man in particular. My committed LI. It did not feel natural at all. I have never heard her talking about any females in her life or hit on Aveline, Merrill or female PC in the same aggressive, focused and dead-determined fashion. I do not really see Isabela as a good example of how to go about subtle bisexual hints. I don't think I've said that Isabela was subtle about her bisexuality. Just about her preference which seems to be women judging by this dialogue bit: "The truth is, sweetness, that men are only good for one thing, while women are good for six." There is also this difference in dialogue after she and Hawke initially sleeps together: With a male Hawke, she says: "I was curious about you and now my curiosity is sated" while with a female Hawke, she says: "It was fun, wasn't it? Well, you know, if you ever want to do it again..."
Mind you, there was that thing in "Mark of the Assassin" where some players felt Isabela cared less about her romance with a male Hawke than she did about her romance with a female Hawke because she reacts differently to Talis and Hawke flirting depending on Hawke's gender. They thought it made it seem like a male Hawke's relationship with her was more casual and less serious than it was with a female Hawke. I found these two videos with footage that showed the differences in her reactions:
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2017 18:39:41 GMT
Dunno, in my game, Isabela's mentions were excessive and all directed towards one man in particular. My committed LI. It did not feel natural at all. I have never heard her talking about any females in her life or hit on Aveline, Merrill or female PC in the same aggressive, focused and dead-determined fashion. I do not really see Isabela as a good example of how to go about subtle bisexual hints. I don't think I've said that Isabela was subtle about her bisexuality. Just about her preference which seems to be women judging by this dialogue bit: "The truth is, sweetness, that men are only good for one thing, while women are good for six." There is also this difference in dialogue after she and Hawke initially sleeps together: With a male Hawke, she says: "I was curious about you and now my curiosity is sated" while with a female Hawke, she says: "It was fun, wasn't it? Well, you know, if you ever want to do it again..."
Mind you, there was that thing in "Mark of the Assassin" where some players felt Isabela cared less about her romance with a male Hawke than she did about her romance with a female Hawke because she reacts differently to Talis and Hawke flirting depending on Hawke's gender. They thought it made it seem like a male Hawke's relationship with her was more casual and less serious than it was with a female Hawke. I found these two videos with footage that showed the differences in her reactions:
Well, I took your post to mean that you'd like the hints of the character preferences to be evident, but subtle. Playing a straight female, in all honesty, it was more obvious to me that Anders cared for Karl, than Isabela would ever be interested in women romantically, but her interest in men was impossible to miss.
And I am not crazy about how Dorian or Hunter are handled vs a female PC, so I prefer the clues from 3rd parties rather than from PC-initiated flirting.
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Post by aslightjump on Jun 21, 2017 7:43:08 GMT
I wanted to say that my "Isabela is a slut" is not due to her bedding other folks in the past, it's due to her first asking about my PC's relationship with Fenris and then immediately starting to attempt to seduce him in front of the PC. In multiple dialogues. At the same time, she continues to treat the PC well, if it is on the friendship path, as if such things are totally normal between friends. I have not yet romanced Isabela, so I will see how that looks from the other side of the fence. Isn't this a confirmed bug that never got fixed? Or are you referring to something other than banters? I'm only asking because I think I once saw a tweet from Gaider than the DAII Fenris/Isabela banters were bugged and didn't recognize the relationship flag. On topic, bisexuals do have preferences, and that doesn't eliminate or lessen their love while in same sex relationships, but it is kinda 'ehhhh no' to me that the game tends to write most of the male ones as being strongly female-leaning. I haven't played Reyes' romance over in MEA but he might be the exception, as is Fenris I suppose. But Zev, IB, Jaal, Kaidan, and the Karl-erasure in Anders' F!Hawke route all indicate a lean towards women, I think. Meanwhile, Liara, Merrill and Josephine seem to have no preference, and Vetra, Isabela and kinda sorta Leliana lean towards women. So I think its more that the writing is lopsided. I see the complaint, but I don't want it to be completely eliminated because its true to life that it happens.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 11:46:46 GMT
I wanted to say that my "Isabela is a slut" is not due to her bedding other folks in the past, it's due to her first asking about my PC's relationship with Fenris and then immediately starting to attempt to seduce him in front of the PC. In multiple dialogues. At the same time, she continues to treat the PC well, if it is on the friendship path, as if such things are totally normal between friends. I have not yet romanced Isabela, so I will see how that looks from the other side of the fence. Isn't this a confirmed bug that never got fixed? Or are you referring to something other than banters? I'm only asking because I think I once saw a tweet from Gaider than the DAII Fenris/Isabela banters were bugged and didn't recognize the relationship flag. On topic, bisexuals do have preferences, and that doesn't eliminate or lessen their love while in same sex relationships, but it is kinda 'ehhhh no' to me that the game tends to write most of the male ones as being strongly female-leaning. I haven't played Reyes' romance over in MEA but he might be the exception, as is Fenris I suppose. But Zev, IB, Jaal, Kaidan, and the Karl-erasure in Anders' F!Hawke route all indicate a lean towards women, I think. Meanwhile, Liara, Merrill and Josephine seem to have no preference, and Vetra, Isabela and kinda sorta Leliana lean towards women. So I think its more that the writing is lopsided. I see the complaint, but I don't want it to be completely eliminated because its true to life that it happens. I am not sure if it's bugged or not, but it is what occurring in the official patched game 5 or 6 years after release, so it is fair to say that it's how the game presents it to me. I am not a jury to disregard the testimony because Gaider said "oops". Intentional or not, that's why she comes across as a slut to me. As I said, I do not know if she tries to cheat on the male as well, when in romance.
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