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Post by yusu on Mar 27, 2017 0:39:11 GMT
Okay. It isn't short and it needs some cleanup. I want my husband to read it over as well. He will help tighten up my points. I'm going to stick this into spoiler tags for now. Don't mind the typos. I've been fixing them as I've been re-reading the post here on my Google Doc tab. To the Mass Effect: Andromeda Team,
First of all, I do want to start by thanking you for the hard work and dedicated you have had in seeing this project through. This has been a long journey for the fans and I’m sure for you as well. I know that the development of the game has been filled with some difficult times. I am a long time fan and I look forward to experiencing life through Ryder’s eyes. Yet today I come with you with some deep concerns.
I feel I would be remiss if I did not address some of the problems with the male/male romances in ME:A. I’m a LGBT+ player and it seems like there has been some steps taken backward in this regard. Dragon Age: Inquisition set a new bar for the company. The romances were full and complete, with romance scenes that melted the heart of many gay and bisexual men throughout the fandom.
Yet when when come to ME:A, the romance content for gay and bisexual men feels lacking and at times, even half-hearted. For example, there is a very detailed scene featuring the character Cora. The time and effort spent of the content shows. However, the scene is fade to black for the gay romance. It can come across almost as there is a sense of shame about showing such content. In Mass Effect 3, the romance between Kaidan and a male Shepard culminated with a tasteful with cleverly done shadows. For many gay and bisexual male players, even lacking such a simple scene leaves a poor impression.
Also, there is less content for the gay and bisexual men. Overall, the dialogue time for the character Gil, estimated by players as being 8 minutes worth of conversation, is far behind the countless minutes spent with the heterosexual romances. The lack of a gay romance on the squad is also a concern. This sort of representation matters quite a bit. It helps give the gay player to fight alongside another hero. To feel like they are up front and center like everyone else. By leaving such romances out of the squad, and to have far less content, it has come across like having any relationships between gay men are a source of embarrassment to the ME:A team. Comments from twitter and developers such as “good Asari banging” may seem like it’s in good fun, but it is hurtful to the players that are now lacking a lot more content.
Another concern is the way bisexual men are presented in ME:A and most BioWare games. With one exception, there has never been a mention of a man as an ex-lover. They only refer to women and that seems like a default perception. It gives the impression like the character isn’t truly into men, and will make an exception for the player. There are bisexual men out there that primarily prefer men and have had few women as partners.
Finally, I’d like to address with you a more personal concern. In the last few years, the people at BioWare have stated that a LGBT+ character has to “make sense” in order to exist. I’ve tried since then to give the teams the benefit of the doubt. I’ve thought about it and it does not make sense. Is it due to the perceived low percentage of people that admit (even anonymously) that they are LGBT+? Is it due to wanting to give a realistic portrayal of the LGBT+ population in the 21st Century? That seems strange in a science fiction setting.
What truly bothers me is the idea that a LGBT+ character has to “make sense” in order to written. I am a bisexual woman and this philosophy, has left me with the impression that LGBT+ people and characters don’t make sense. That we are so different from everyone else that the teams at BioWare have to justify why there can be LGBT+ characters at all. Like the community is a checklist of some sort. I know that is not your intentions, but it has become hurtful over the years.
I know that the intentions are amazing and I do applaud the steps forward. Introducing the idea of two men having a family, the little details like two male NPCs do truly mean a lot. The romance with Reyes, despite taking place off-ship, has been well received by fans. However, please take this feedback into consideration for future games. We know you guys can give more a robust male/male romance than what we’ve seen. We know you can that you can do better.
Thank you again for reading this and for your hard work. I look forward to hearing from you soon.
Natashina, Global Moderator for the Unofficial BioWare Social Network.
Hope this doesn't sound patronizing, but I quite liked this draft, polite yet covered quite a few points. I wish to address the Inquisition m/m romances. I think what made them satisfying was the show of effort on the same level with any other romances in the game. This evenness in treatment (quality, not quantity) was more important than the romances themselves. I myself didn't feel left out, nor being special, singled out, catered to. This is very rare in media. We either have straight oriented stuff, or "special" gay targeting stuff, but not much shows/games/films that treat everyone the same. I feel heart melting is the secondary point here. I personally don't enjoy Dorian's romance that much (blasphemy!) while would still acknowledge it to be fully developed. (Sorry that I'm using your letter for my own points, I work better bouncing off other's thoughts.) If I were to write a similar letter I'd call out the poor marketing. I can only call it a nasty surprise, even if the devs/marketing team were somehow ignorant of the difference in quality/quantity between m/m content and all others (but especially m/f). But I assume this issue should be directed more towards the marketing team. Hmmm, maybe I should write a letter myself to add to the pile. But deciding not to get the game made me feel quite unqualified to give direct feedback, that and losing all confidence in the ME team.
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Post by yusu on Mar 22, 2017 0:42:25 GMT
Re: Jill Jill is the closest thing he has to family. He was a street kid so she's basically his sister. It's implied he's just as bad to her but we softened him up with our lovey dovey ways. Re: Jill later events Jill wants to have a baby on her own, her decision. She asks Gil if he'll help her being the person she's closest to. You can say no. She has her baby just using different DNA, since it's something she wants to do independent of your relationship with Gil (in fact it's postgame long after lock in) and you become uncles instead of dads. Sounds better than I thought. Thanks for clearing that up
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Post by yusu on Mar 22, 2017 0:34:03 GMT
hey........ let me know if i'm out of line as a straight woman who is probs not immune to this thing IRL or in talking about fiction but..... it seems kinda weird that straight ladies romancing Jaal are saying that at least mlm have Gil, who is wonderful enough to be their (ladies') Gay Best Friend(TM) like???????????? i noticed it a LOT with Dorian and it's just disappointing that once again the one gay dude is being reduced down to that by fandom. (not @ anyone i've seen in this forum (yet) just... in general) I can only share my own experience. I came out to all my friends a few years ago. I had some wonderful experience with most of them, because they didn't see me differently, besides that we could openly talk about sexual stuff. To some others I suddenly became this "gay best friend", as you said. It was truly awful. It felt like everything I was had been collapsed into this label, this surface, and that was all they could see. It took me about a year just to break some of them out of this thinking. I had to cut off some others too. But I don't regret it one bit. Of course, we can have very deep and meaningful friendships with our lady friends. I appreciate mine deeply. That's the reason whenever I encounter a "friendship" in media (sometimes in real life too) between a gay man and a woman, and it's all focused on the "gayness", I'll get really upset. Now, about the game: For Dorian it's ok in game. The conversation is mainly about Tervinter and his wish to change it. For Gil, I admit I only browsed through his romance so I don't really know, but Jill rubs me the wrong way completely, from her similar name, her prominent role in the romance, everything. Maybe someone more familiar with the romance can tell me that she's friend with proper boundaries and views? As for what the fandom thinks, I do have problem with certain attitudes. But by the end of the day it's toward fictional characters and everyone has his/her right to think about them however he/she wants. However, the writers should not reduce any characters in any story to this token, this label. That's very problematic and sends out the wrong signals. I'll also give anybody a hard time if I see this done to real people (within my right to do so of course).
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Post by yusu on Mar 21, 2017 8:53:43 GMT
Ha, found a pic perfect for my new saltiness level:
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Post by yusu on Mar 21, 2017 7:39:03 GMT
Well it was better than I expected, but still... Can you talk a bit about it in very general, non-spoilery terms ? Like how long it is (compared to some of the other romances), whether it feels more like a fling or a full romance, whether the sex scene really is fade-to-black? May I answer a bit? It's fairly light in content, no sex scene, several kissing scenes. I feel it's kinda between a full romance and a fling? Leaning towards full romance. The nice thing about it is it's quite involved in a side plot, so more engaging than Gil's for me. The flirting feels natural at least. Animations are half-assed. With my extremely low expectations it is better than I've feared. Does it hold a candle to any DA romances, or Kaidan's? No. Edit: minor things
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Post by yusu on Mar 21, 2017 6:58:07 GMT
Over the mishandling of m/m based romances. ... huh. Really? That's... ... huh. Nah, I'd say it's over mishandling of romances in general, failed to "pander/appease" to either group. I was joking in my initial post saying we share a common ground, in case that needed clarifying. minor edit
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Post by yusu on Mar 21, 2017 6:14:09 GMT
This forum is really helpful for time like this. If I dare say anything negative or complaining about gay on reddit. I would probably be downvoted to hell already, and the people there are making fun of us bsn over there constantly. Lol The ME reddit is pretty mixed in general. However, people are quite supportive to us gays regarding romances. It's kinda refreshing. https://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/60hykz/mea_spoilers_pages_from_the_official_romance_guide/ Did ME Team manage to do the impossible, pissing off both ends that it gave us a common ground?
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Post by yusu on Mar 21, 2017 1:38:28 GMT
I don't believe so. This is what I get: The devs knew Jaal was straight. There was no flirt option for Scott. This Starkles guy asked the devs by saying that he successfully flirted with Jaal and the devs got confused, because it should not be possible. They replied that Jaal should turn Scott down (because he was straight). We did not bait ourselves, all the marketing and teasing, tweeting, wink wink did. Or did I misunderstand something? Or the twitter guy was just making shit up. He also said you can bang Jaal. So yeah Oh he definitely made shit up. I was thinking from the devs' point of view.
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Post by yusu on Mar 21, 2017 1:33:16 GMT
Okay so, apparently the statement Starkles got from the devs is, and I quote: "Jaal should turn down Scott." The datamine basically just miraculously exposed a programming oversight. Congratulations, we baited ourselves for...a while now I guess? I don't believe so. This is what I get: The devs knew Jaal was straight. There was no flirt option for Scott. This Starkles guy asked the devs by saying that he successfully flirted with Jaal and the devs got confused, because it should not be possible. They replied that Jaal should turn Scott down (because he was straight). We did not bait ourselves, all the marketing and teasing, tweeting, wink wink did. Or did I misunderstand something?
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Post by yusu on Mar 21, 2017 0:12:37 GMT
It'd be hilarious if straight Jaal is a bug and they have to release a "gay patch".
No, it'd still be pathetic.
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Post by yusu on Mar 20, 2017 22:02:11 GMT
? the sex scenes were fine to me. They only made me wonder why the fuck was that so well animated when so much of the game looks like shit. Alright, I feel I should explain a bit. I actually rewatched Morrigan's sex scene and Cora and Peebee's just to be sure. I'd say Cora's is around the same level as Morrigan's. It's better animated, sure. But the almost complete dark background and somehow well-lit characters look off to me. Peebee's though, I really don't know how to describe it, the elongated neck, the "embrace eternity" and Scott/Sara's blank face. To me it's as startling as Morinth's, but with out the intention to be so. Of course youtube clips cannot convey the emotional build up toward the sex scenes through the entire game (best example, Mother Giselle's singing), so I don't really know. . .
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Post by yusu on Mar 20, 2017 21:38:28 GMT
Well, to be fair, the sex scenes are rather embarrassing. but are they "Morrigan having sex in her underwear which is actually less revealing than her normal clothes where she doesn't wear a bra" embarrassing? From what I've seen? More embarrassing than that
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Post by yusu on Mar 20, 2017 20:30:27 GMT
mmmm give me my ginger hunky with freckles werewolf KISA first Why not both? DA4 will be the gayest! :sure: Both is good. We'll all get what we want
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Post by yusu on Mar 20, 2017 20:23:09 GMT
Needs more mucle! THAT would be my desire demon
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Post by yusu on Mar 20, 2017 19:32:03 GMT
So this is how you guys handle it? twitter.com/ladyinsanity/with_repliesDisgusting. I am really done with this thread now and I am off to enjoy the game, like a gamer should. Enjoy your salt. This generalizing attitude really does you no good, just saying.
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Post by yusu on Mar 20, 2017 17:49:00 GMT
Yeah, not gonna attack the devs. (Of course!) I doubt we will even get any answers besides the usual "have to make sense" / "time constraint". Maybe I'm just bitterly cynical.
If the prima guide is true, MEA has just dropped from "wait for a discount" to "never buy" for me. I'll let my wallet speak.
But still, this whole thing hurts.
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Post by yusu on Mar 20, 2017 12:59:36 GMT
wow cora/peebee ones are literally porn while poor gil has it all censored ahaha actually its not funny Edit: def not buying for the full price, 50% off no less thats too much straght pandering for me. Actually I'm somehow glad of this. The scenes are so tastelessly done I dread to imagine what a m/m one would look like. I would give bioware a hard time for all the shit about MEA but I find myself already not caring. I feel the game lacks creative vision, even down to romance scenes. Do we need inadequate representation for m/m relationships? That's also the reason I have mixed feelings regarding the spoiler with Gil. I'm not sure it will be handled right.
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Post by yusu on Mar 19, 2017 4:17:37 GMT
*whisper* can someone share the reyes video? I took a screenshot of Reyes. OMG burn it with fire please! But I agree that Reyes seems way too orange. And it's not a good time to be orange right now.
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Post by yusu on Mar 15, 2017 18:19:13 GMT
I don't think they did. They expecially stated there'll be differences because it'll be based on the same type of face customization the trilogy and DAO/DA2 had, instead of the one used in DAI. They did at least imply there'll be tons of options, which is untrue. Interesting. Despite Aaryn's tweet I think this is actually the truth. From gameplay videos, especially the flirting one in the spoiler section, I get a very distinct DA2 feeling of facial animation. Just look at the muscle movement around the mouth corners. Almost exactly like Hawke's. The flirting thread in the spoiler section (BEWARE OF SPOILERS): bsn.boards.net/thread/5006/ryders-flirtingI definitely think technologically MEA's CC is a step back from Inquisition's. Maybe it's to accommodate the more detailed animation? Unfortunately it feels all the efforts actually pushed the characters deep into the uncanny valley this time.
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Post by yusu on Mar 15, 2017 7:12:12 GMT
Favorite romances:
Iron Bull. Enjoyed the kink, very nice surprise. Bull is complex and a mystery. Most the time he would hide himself, but when we caught him off guard at the final pillow talk it was genuinely moving (top response, "if I die"). It's also one of the few romances that's about both you and the love interest in equal measure. His darker alternative also adds another layer to be wondered at. The strange similarity/difference of both paths is the key in understanding Bull's character for me.
Cassandra. Especially the Divine path. It's such a bittersweet romance. Cass and the inquisitor feel like a mature, equal couple that both have things to pursue, responsibilities, ideals. But the love is so strong it bond them together despite everything. For that playthrough I even made my qunari inquisitor an atheist just to add more tension, but it still worked beautifully.
Anders. Almost the standard "fix this broken person with love" story, other than that we cannot fix Anders. The finality of his story gives the romance an unavoidable tragic taste, a weight rarely found in any other romances. (Well, except Solas, but I hate Solas. . .)
Kaidan with m/Shep. It's just a nice, normal, stable relationship. It would be one of my top picks, but I could not play ME3 again at all, so.
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Post by yusu on Mar 15, 2017 0:17:26 GMT
Been thinking about it. I think MEA's CC vs say, Inquisition's CC is comparable to the iphone camera vs a really high end DSLR. For average players everyone can make pretty decent looking characters in MEA, but everyone's character will look a bit similar and bland. While in Inquisition it would take quite a bit of effort to make the character work, but he/she has the potential to be quite unique.
I'm Asian myself, and seeing decent Asian faces is pretty nice. But I'll bet all the Asians we can make will all look quite similar to each other.
Just a design decision that traded complexity for utility, sacrificing the real high end stuff for the average quality. It's fine and all. For me? I'd put 10 hours into one face to make it feel right, so this is truly disappointing.
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Post by yusu on Mar 14, 2017 19:31:59 GMT
Wow this is incredibly bad. I was on the fence for MEA for the longest time. Just didn't have much faith in the ME team at all. Even with that in mind I never imagined they would butcher the CC like this, a 10 year regression back to the pre-ME era. Plus, everything else shown felt mediocre to me at best as well. I'll definitely give Andromeda a pass for now, a first for Bioware since Baldur's Gate. I still have tons of faith in the DA team though, and hope DA4 will not get whatever the ME team is getting. I'd say my problem with ME now is its top level concept and direction decisions, which I personally just don't care about anymore. There's no remedy for that.
My 2 cents
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yusu
N1
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 25 Likes: 135
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Jan 23, 2023 14:23:39 GMT
135
yusu
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March 2017
yusu
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by yusu on Mar 13, 2017 22:58:09 GMT
Oh, yes. I'm experiencing the exact same thing! Currently doing a kinda jerk inquisitor run and sided with the qun. Bull's greetings are just so chilly and detached now they break my heart (he is my canon romance after all). That "Yes...?" is just cold It does drain the light out of the playthrough quite a bit. So looking forward to a second Bull romance playthrough that do everything right. NEVER AGAIN!
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yusu
N1
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 25 Likes: 135
inherit
4216
0
Jan 23, 2023 14:23:39 GMT
135
yusu
25
March 2017
yusu
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by yusu on Mar 13, 2017 11:10:36 GMT
Oh I like his romance arc, I just don't like him telling me how I feel. I have a Quizzy whose very much into him and his BDSM, but would have preferred him saying "this is what I like and want to do to you, are you up for it?" Instead of saying this is what you need. Really it just that one part of the conversation that I dislike. And with the psychoanalysis of Bull needing to be in control due to not having any in the Qun was what I was calling BS. Sorry I made it seem like I was trashing your favorite romance! I didn't mean it that way. Congratulations on your first post! Oh, this I can agree. It could be handled a bit better, a proper negotiation and such. However, real life established BDSM culture may not apply perfectly to the setting. I'd like to think that Bull and the inquisitor are figuring it out in game. Bull's psyche is also extremely tricky, very fun to figure out. But that's a conversation more suited for his own thread I do give Bioware credit for doing it though (and a pretty good one too), and hope they don't shy away from similarly niche paths. And I don't think you were trashing him, just that I read similar comments all the time.
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yusu
N1
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 25 Likes: 135
inherit
4216
0
Jan 23, 2023 14:23:39 GMT
135
yusu
25
March 2017
yusu
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by yusu on Mar 13, 2017 10:18:21 GMT
? Bull's scene is cheesy because that's pretty much how he initially approaches sex with Quizzy. I mean you get to that point with some lulz worthy flirts. The BDSM is part of his characterization (with the illusion of him having control since all his life he's following someone else's orders). It fit the character (and the relationship) just fine. (Sorry I had to defend my ship yo. My favorite romance in the series that's not Fenris) Wow! I never put that together before! That makes sense. Of course it's kinda BS that he puts it on Quizzy, "Oh, your the boss and give orders all day, you need someone to take control from you." Well, Bull does give us what, six chances to say no, more than anybody else. Some may not like the "this is what you need", but I personally (and presumably many others) enjoy it a lot and think it make sense. Just say no to him if you don't like his romance arc, but it's hardly bullshit. It's no difference from any other romance arcs really. More related to MEA, I hope the romances (and those in future Bioware titles) have similarly flavorful, unexpected arcs that underline the characters well. The flexible structure in the DA games made this much easier than the "sex before final battle" ME trilogy method. So here's hoping for Andromeda. PS, first post. Just have to defend my favorite romance from Bioware
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