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Post by miso9 on Apr 15, 2017 8:51:45 GMT
First of all sorry it took so long for me to respond. Second of all, speaking of ME2 Prima guide, it's been 7 years so maybe I remembered something wrong but I was on old Bioware forum and I'm quite sure that right before the release of ME2 people were very hopeful because apparently there was a sentence about romances in Prima guide implying that some characters are only interested in opposite gender, but other are "more open", or something like that. I remember that some people on forum tried to downplay the whole mess by insisting that people behind the guide were simply mistaken because of Jack's confessions about threesome. IIRC datamining later showed that Jack and Tali had voice files recorded for f/f romance, and Thane for m/m, don't know if anyone else. *busts out ME2 strategy guide* Gender does affect some potential romantic subplots. Jacob, for example, is only interested in a female Shepard, while Miranda is only romantic with a male Shepard. Some shipmates will consider a relationship regardless of gender.
Just figured we may as well operate with what the book says rather than relying on memory. I don't have the book. "Some shipmates will consider a relationship regardless of gender" is what the fuss was about 7 years ago.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 15, 2017 8:04:44 GMT
The ME2 guide doesn't claim there are same-sex relationships that then didn't appear in the game (or certainly not the edition I got in the UK). In the game, however, there are hints that Miranda and possibly Tali (in the emails at the end of the Lair of the Shadow Broker) could've been available to a FemShep. I've not played the game as BroShep (just didn't like Mark Meer's voice whereas Jennifer Hale is amazing!), so don't know if there's similar with m/m romances (I would assume so). First of all sorry it took so long for me to respond. Second of all, speaking of ME2 Prima guide, it's been 7 years so maybe I remembered something wrong but I was on old Bioware forum and I'm quite sure that right before the release of ME2 people were very hopeful because apparently there was a sentence about romances in Prima guide implying that some characters are only interested in opposite gender, but other are "more open", or something like that. I remember that some people on forum tried to downplay the whole mess by insisting that people behind the guide were simply mistaken because of Jack's confessions about threesome. IIRC datamining later showed that Jack and Tali had voice files recorded for f/f romance, and Thane for m/m, don't know if anyone else. The problem with the assumption that Suvi was intentionally written as someone 'in closet' is that it would only make sense if it eventually was made known to the player. When you play as a man you will get absolutely no clue she's anything but straight-by-default, so she provides absolutely no representation for us. Similarly when you play as a straight woman you will get no clue she's anything but straight. When you play a woman who's romancing her you will only get a clue she likes you, but you won't know if she likes women in general or what, you'll hear nothing implying she's a lesbian even when you're dating her. And because of this we have people here who try to appropriate her as bisexual or asexual. So once again, that's why I prefer to believe Sheryl was asked to write her as another romance option for Scott and now her bosses just force her to say untruth for damage control, instead of intentionally making the sole lesbian representation in this game completely invisible.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 10, 2017 12:03:03 GMT
Do you think it's possible that maybe whoever was making the screenshots for the prima guide was fucking around with the game enough to get that scene? That seems more likely than them deciding suddenly to make her bi or straight and then changing their mind again after the prima guide was finalized. Going by Katy and Sheryl's tweets, she was always intended to be a lesbian. I'd say it was most likely a bug. Prima didn't get their hands on the game until late in development, and romances are locked in by that point. It wouldn't make sense to cut it last minute, but again looking at the evidence it was likely a bug. Didn't Prima guide for ME2 claim there were same-sex romances in that game? It's known they were cut out short before release.I checked Katy's tweet but it seems she didn't say the entire truth. She said that she mentioned it only because she "keeps getting messages about this nonsense" and "was just responding to a plethora of messages" regarding Suvi. I checked her twitter mentions. No one asked her about that, at least looking back 5 days. So it seems she found it on her own, perhaps by reading this forum where she was actually pointed at as another evidence that Suvi was not intended to be a lesbian since before the release of the game when straight guys who wanted to bone Suvi asked her what would she say about the "rumors Suvi is gay" she said that she never heard those rumors. She was also accused for that of teasing straight guys at the expense of lesbians. That seemed to really hurt her judging from how she responded. But the other possible explanation is that she was just contacted by Bioware to put a disclaimer. I asked Sheryl earlier on Twitter about this stuff and I am not convinced at all by her response. It's not only that she didn't even acknowledge the page from official guide contradicting her statement - I understand she didn't make the guide but her answers looked like she pretended it didn't even exist - but she also gave really lazy answer to my question why if Suvi was always intended to be lesbian there's nothing to implicate she even likes women, which is unlike every other non-bisexual romance interest in this game, and that she doesn't even tell Scott who's hitting on her that she's not into men. In her answer she picked only the Scott part, and all she said was "that was a choice I made for her character. That's all I'm going to say about it". That's the whole answer to the question why the only lesbian character is basically put into closet. So yeah, not very convincing. So those statements make me even less believe the version that Suvi was always intended to be lesbian. I'd like to point out I don't blame Katy nor Sheryl. They didn't make any decisions in this regard and if their bosses told them to say untruth they couldn't do much about it. And actually, the alternative I don't believe in would make them look much worse. If Suvi was always intended to be lesbian, then Katy really teased straight guys at the expense of lesbians, and Sheryl really put into closet and made invisible the only lesbian representation in this game to not hurt straight guys' feelings.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 9, 2017 11:58:26 GMT
As this thread, just like old Sera thread, is also somewhat a ground for discussing lesbian issues since it's about the character who's supposed to be a sole lesbian representation in this game, I'd still like to post here this comment I planned for PM to deadklydarkside, since I explained in it why it's so damaging to appropriate label of a different under- and mis-represented sexual minority. I put it into spoiler tag so please just ignore if you're not interested. deadlydarkside -- it's noteworthy that the first thing you do in your comment is trying to define by your terms what "lesbian" means and while doing so, erasing women like me from the definition, or at least undermining our experiences: "Being a lesbian is not all about being sexually attracted to women".
The same kind of argumentation comes from women who are sexually attracted to men as well: "Oh I'm a lesbian because I can love only women!". And similarly, they are always defending and encouraging homophobic portrayals of lesbians in the media, every instance of "lesbian suddenly craving a man" in a movie or TV show. They know it validates *their* claim for lesbian label and don't care it encourages pre-existing homophobic stereotypes about lesbians and erases women who are sexually (and romantically) attracted exclusively to women. Few years ago I wrote complaints to BBC when one after another of their shows had storylines of lesbians sleeping with men. Each time in their responses they pretended that they're doing something groundbreaking by showing that "sexuality is fluid" (somehow only lesbian sexuality) and that they just represent "some lesbians" - "lesbians who sleep with men". Such storyline happened in at least 3 different BBC shows (twice with two different lesbian characters in one show) during a time span of few months.
People's lesbophobic beliefs are validated by watching in real life women who say that they are lesbians, while they are not homosexual but in fact bisexual or asexual. Both confirming in slightly different ways homophobic stereotypes about us - that "lesbians deep down need d*ck" and "lesbians don't even have real sex, they just hold hands and cuddle together". Which in the end leads to the fact that lesbian (female homosexual) sexual orientation is ridiculed, not taken seriously, and in conclusion, women like me become invisible, our experiences are being erased.
And unlike you we don't have any other label we could cling to. When it's convenient you can always say you're asexual who just loves women, we have only "lesbian". When you present yourself as a lesbian people think you're representing women like me, not that you mean completely different sexual orientation from mine, that you're a woman from different sexual minority. I am a lesbian. What you're doing affects me and people like me. For example now you're high-fiving Bioware for not providing lesbian players even one sex scene and you encourage them to further single out lesbians for "player-sexual" approach - to leave to the imagination of the player if the "lesbian character" even likes women sexually.
So you use the claim for lesbian label to affect the treatment and representation of a different sexual minority - of women who romantically and sexually are exclusively attracted to women - to make it better for you at our expense.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 8, 2017 16:38:41 GMT
Look, as much as I find the split attraction model to be terribly homophobic, can you guys please take this to PM? It's starting to drift from the topic of Suvi, and the mods have already dropped into the thread enough as it is. If it appears that more intense arguing has happened despite them repeatedly warning us, people might face consequences for that. So, please, for everyone's sake, take this to PM, you two. I already received the answer to my question which stands as another confirmation that this team doesn't respect lesbian players, so that's fine by me.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 8, 2017 16:28:38 GMT
I asked where Bioware devs said anything like that. It would be awful if they really did, since it would be just shameless pandering at the expense of lesbian players once again showing us we are just an afterthought to them. They didn't bother to provide us even one romance scene. That thing with Peebee is just half-assed not-making-any-sense copypaste of straight sex scene which is really offensive on its own. The only reason Suvi doesn't have sex scene is because they didn't want to waste resources on us (and given that Suvi was most likely designed as romance option for Scott, it's probable she had straight sex scene but they obviously had to cut that out, since a mere copypaste Peebee-style would be a dead giveaway she was not originally intended to be a lesbian to anyone who saw it). And now I hear some Bioware devs (but not Sheryl judging from her twitter) shamelessly try to use treating lesbians as an afterthought to score points for "diversity" by implying the only lesbian character could also not be a lesbian if you want because we didn't bother to give gay women even one sex scene?Since that's all what this is about. I remember HI tried to argue "nonsexual" romance doesn't have to imply the character is asexual, but that's definitely what people think judging from social media. For example there's this guy on Twitter who constantly bombarded Bioware with demands for it and who already thanked Sheryl for "beautiful nonsexual romance" and who is not hiding his intentions that he just wants Suvi to be degayed, as that's one of his tweets: "Can Suvi be seen as asexual or demisexual as well as a lesbian, like how Josephine could be seen as those as well as bisexual?". Co-option and appropriation, that's all what this is about. So again, where did Bioware devs say that Suvi and Sara don't have sex? It was in a PM chat I had with a dev on here. Before the game came out I asked how the romances would be in regards to sex scenes, specifically if there were romances that didn't involve it or left it to interpretation. They replied that some were written to be explicit, while others were written in an ambiguous way so players can interpret how they want. After the game came out, I asked them to thank Jo Berry and Sheryl Chee for what they did with the Cora and Suvi romances respectively and they mentioned that Suvi was the exact romance they thought of when they first read my question. As a side note, they also mentioned that Suvi's romance is their personal favorite in the game. Then thanks for confirming lesbians really are an afterthought to this team. Like I said, not bothering to provide even one actual sex scene and they apparently shamelessly insist that throwing lesbians under the bus makes them somehow more "progressive". Your friend wants Suvi to be asexual/demisexual, to have no sexual feelings towards women. He, a man, wants to take away from representation of gay women like me. And yes, he does that a lot, he also wants to get this done to Lexi because he likes her too. Sexual orientation is about sexual attraction. Meanwhile there is strong evidence any emotional preferences are nothing really hardwired. But regardless of that, *lesbian* is a synonym to *homo sexual* woman. Not "homoromantic" woman. You can't be asexual and homosexual at the same time. What is "asexual lesbian" anyway? A woman who likes to hold hands with other women? Who's more emotionally close to women than to men? That's exactly the homophobic stereotype many hold about lesbians already, that we don't know what "real sex" is because for "real sex" a woman needs a man. This whole argument is just an attempt to co-opt and appropriate the culture of a different sexual minority. Why I am not surprised that the LGBT group with minimal visibility (behind gay men and bisexual women as the data from GLAAD report I mentioned earlier showed) is always the target for this? People who want Suvi to be asexual/demisexual are exactly on the same level as those who want Suvi to be bisexual or even straight. I hope you don't.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 8, 2017 10:12:15 GMT
Where? Last time I checked the official version is that she was always written as a lesbian, i.e. a woman who's sexually attracted to women and who has sexual desires for other women. He's talking about her last romance scene, and the ambiguosity of whether they had sex or not (with Sara, just saying).... I asked where Bioware devs said anything like that. It would be awful if they really did, since it would be just shameless pandering at the expense of lesbian players once again showing us we are just an afterthought to them. They didn't bother to provide us even one romance scene. That thing with Peebee is just half-assed not-making-any-sense copypaste of straight sex scene which is really offensive on its own. The only reason Suvi doesn't have sex scene is because they didn't want to waste resources on us (and given that Suvi was most likely designed as romance option for Scott, it's probable she had straight sex scene but they obviously had to cut that out, since a mere copypaste Peebee-style would be a dead giveaway she was not originally intended to be a lesbian to anyone who saw it). And now I hear some Bioware devs (but not Sheryl judging from her twitter) shamelessly try to use treating lesbians as an afterthought to score points for "diversity" by implying the only lesbian character could also not be a lesbian if you want because we didn't bother to give gay women even one sex scene?Since that's all what this is about. I remember HI tried to argue "nonsexual" romance doesn't have to imply the character is asexual, but that's definitely what people think judging from social media. For example there's this guy on Twitter who constantly bombarded Bioware with demands for it and who already thanked Sheryl for "beautiful nonsexual romance" and who is not hiding his intentions that he just wants Suvi to be degayed, as that's one of his tweets: "Can Suvi be seen as asexual or demisexual as well as a lesbian, like how Josephine could be seen as those as well as bisexual?". Co-option and appropriation, that's all what this is about. So again, where did Bioware devs say that Suvi and Sara don't have sex?
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Post by miso9 on Apr 7, 2017 12:49:40 GMT
Right. So anyways because I'm actually a lesbian unlike this guy I can tell y'all Suvi and Ryder totally had the best time in that lab because God forbid lesbians, you know, have sexual relationships or anything. How dare us. And how dare we claim something written for us without needing your straight dude input on it. Seriously. It's getting tiring. Suvi wasn't written for you. Please stop with the high and mighty attitude and stop hiding your fetisization of us behind your "claiming" of their "non-sexual" relationship. Not to mention that Bioware devs themselves talked about how she was written to be ambiguous so both those who want a sexual romance with her and those who want a nonsexual romance with her can both have what they want. Where? Last time I checked the official version is that she was always written as a lesbian, i.e. a woman who's sexually attracted to women and who has sexual desires for other women.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 7, 2017 12:25:50 GMT
Then you imagined it wrong. Suvi doesn't have one. The only sex scenes are straight (plus one "lesbian" sex scene with Peebee, which is just straight sex scene with switched model and it just makes it look really ridiculous). True i romanced Suvi in my first playthrough and all i got were two kissing scenes ( with the clothes still on bummer ) and those two kissing scenes looked kinda weird. Because i heard the kissing sounds but the lips were not touching at all i could easily fit my hand between the two. Probably because the kiss animation was made with Scott model.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 7, 2017 11:57:54 GMT
The funny thing is, as everything points out Suvi was designed as another option for straight men and only 'locked' for women within last few months. Although her writer denied it, she couldn't say anything about the fact that official Prima guide accidentally showed that originally (as those guides are based on a little earlier build sent by developers) Suvi was romanceable by male Ryder: This also would explain why Suvi has no dialogue that would indicate she even likes women. For comparison, all the other non-bisexual romance options - Gil, Cora and Liam - tell you right away that they like men/women only. Meanwhile all she says to a guy hitting on her is "I prefer to keep it professional". Oh, and you wouldn't hear anything indicating what her sexuality is even when you romance her. But that also invalidates your point. Suvi most likely was just another, sixth option created for straight men. She was never written as a lesbian, there was apparently no lesbian character planned for this game at all. Perhaps at some point someone realized it would get them a lot of flak, or perhaps they were concerned how would it look like if Scott could bang all the women in Andromeda. So the remedy was artificially locking for women one of the female characters intended for Scott. Out of all options created for straight men (excluding the 2 flings that don't count as romances), Suvi had the most limited, tiny content. This seems to be the only reason why she was the one chosen as this pseudo "lesbian" option. Thanks for that insight. I'm not surprised Suvi's writer would lie to cover her tracks, but it is a little disappointing. Again, I'd just prefer if everybody had as many options as possible. The fact that Suvi's romance was such an afterthought, and then made a lesbian option just because BioWare likely forgot to provide one shows how utterly lazy it was in designing these characters. I'd still say BioWare should just open up all these characters to any gender. Especially with how limited the content is for some (lesbian-only and gay-only romances), it would actually be a benefit to provide these demographics with more options because BioWare did them such a disservice with the base game content. Just wanted to point out: I don't blame Suvi's writer if she didn't say the truth since she didn't make the decision what characters should be gay or straight. But there are rumors she fought to make Vetra (she's her writer as well) who was intended to be M/F only be available for F/F too, so it's reasonable to suspect she also had something to do with Suvi eventually ending up as F/F exclusive, since otherwise lesbians would have absolutely no representation in this game, and therefore this substitute is better than nothing. Besides, it was probably her bosses who told her to deny that Suvi was ever straight romance option so she couldn't do much about it. Many sources like the review from 2016 that recirculated on discussion boards after the release of MEA say that Bioware Montreal management is really problematic when it comes to the treatment of their employees. And as for making all romanceable character bi, DA2 had it (although one DLC character was straight-only), people complained it's unrealistic, that they're "player-sexual" (indeed besides Isabela who was already in DAO and already established as bisexual all the other characters seemed to be straight-by-default), and so the argument behind having in following ME3 (and later DAI) characters of defined orientation was to provide representation to minority groups. But from the start the focus was put on straight characters because everyone knows straight people really need representation, while gay men and lesbians were an afterthought. Traynor was basically designed as a little tease to straight men, there was more content in her interactions with male Shepard than female Shepard who romanced her. She also had the least content overall. Steve had the GAY(tm) cliche storyline and NO HOMO! romance scene. DAI was a bit better when it comes to this because the lead writer was a gay man. And now MEA, de facto regress compared even to ME3. Yet I don't think a come back to DA2 approach would make it much better. Look at Peebee. She was obviously from the start intended to be bisexual since all Asari are, but what is her same-sex content? They didn't even bother to make her same-sex romance scene right, that scene (which is the only sex scene lesbians got in entire game) is just reused straight sex scene with switched character model, and it just looks broken and ridiculous. They didn't care. And of course first thing she does when unromanced is quickly starting to drool over a male character. But hey, there is a same-sex backstory, she has crazy ex girlfriend! I'm no longer content with scraps. What Bioware is doing certainly doesn't look that impressive anymore when game from huge hit franchise like The Last of Us 2 is going to have fixed protagonist who's a lesbian.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 6, 2017 21:40:20 GMT
I haven't romanced Suvi so I don't know what it is like, but if her romance is unsatisfying then making her, in particular, bi won't help that all it will do is remove representation from the game. Making her bi doesn't make her romance more compelling. This isn't like DA2, which was designed around all 4 romance options being bi and so each were compelling. (Isabela is one of my favourite romances) It isn't Suvi's sexuality that doesn't make her romance compelling but how it was designed. If Bioware decides to make everyone bi, then I'd be ok with that, all players would get more options, all players would have access to the more developed romance options, but making only Suvi bi removes a gay main character and just gives straight male characters access to one more romance, when they already have access to 2 of the 3 romances people say are well-developed. I do think it's possible for a game to have characters with their own sexuality and to have all the romances well-developed. One of the things DA:I did very well were the romances, none of them felt like less development time was spent on them and they all seemed very appropriate to the character the player was romancing. It just requires time, commitment and funding. As Suvi currently stands, it's actually more limiting for someone interested in f/f romance options, considering how lackluster her romance is. If everybody was bi, then f/f would have more options that are better developed and provide more content. This is less about straight male Ryder getting more options, and more about everybody getting more options. Cora and Peebee are two of the best romances, and obviously straight male Ryder has both of those. I'm not suggesting that just switching Suvi to bi will make her romance more compelling. I think additional dialogue would need to be incorporated in order to bring more value to her romance, considering it's lacking as it currently stands. I agree with you that the design of her character (and more so lack of content) is at fault. Her sexuality is just a gate and a limiter for those who may have wanted to pursue her. Truth be told, there was never any dedicated dialogue that I could see where Suvi ever suggested a preference one way or the other. She just outright rejects male Ryder for "professional reasons" and that's the end of it. The funny thing is, as everything points out Suvi was designed as another option for straight men and only 'locked' for women within last few months. Although her writer denied it, she couldn't say anything about the fact that official Prima guide accidentally showed that originally (as those guides are based on a little earlier build sent by developers) Suvi was romanceable by male Ryder: This also would explain why Suvi has no dialogue that would indicate she even likes women. For comparison, all the other non-bisexual romance options - Gil, Cora and Liam - tell you right away that they like men/women only. Meanwhile all she says to a guy hitting on her is "I prefer to keep it professional". Oh, and you wouldn't hear anything indicating what her sexuality is even when you romance her. But that also invalidates your point. Suvi most likely was just another, sixth option created for straight men. She was never written as a lesbian, there was apparently no lesbian character planned for this game at all. Perhaps at some point someone realized it would get them a lot of flak, or perhaps they were concerned how would it look like if Scott could bang all the women in Andromeda. So the remedy was artificially locking for women one of the female characters intended for Scott. Out of all options created for straight men (excluding the 2 flings that don't count as romances), Suvi had the most limited, tiny content. This seems to be the only reason why she was the one chosen as this pseudo "lesbian" option.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 5, 2017 21:37:01 GMT
I assume you reacted the same way when the Word of Casey Hudson told you there are no lesbian romances in Mass Effect because Asari are genderless species? Haven't been there for that presumed clusterfuck, no. It is however puzzling me why would you react this way. Unless, of course... Sorry, my English is evidently not good enough to make me understand what are you trying to imply.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 5, 2017 21:15:52 GMT
No new fan art today. Instead, I found a screenshot comparison on tumblr that might back up what Sheryl claimed. The screenshot from the prima guide: ...and a screenshot of the same scene with Sara/SisRyder from the launch version: It does seem like the scene fits much better with female Ryder than male Ryder, since Suvi actually looks her in the eye. I have no idea what might have gone wrong in the making of this guide, or how it's possible that the guys at primagames weren't informed which romance is intended for which character, so that they could capture the appropriate screenshots, but at least this seems to point to carelessness during the making of the guide more than carelessness during the making of the romance. It's still very embarassing for BioWare, but not as embarassing as it would be if they had forgotten to include a lesbian crewmate and romance option from the start. How would it be carelessness during the making of the guide? They didn't mod the game just to put Scott in the place of Sara, that's the build they got. If like you propose it was some bug and they didn't know it because they somehow didn't get the memo Suvi is supposed to be gay, they would quickly realize it's just a bug from the fact that the scene would just look evidently wrong with animations, sizes, clipping etc., so this juxtaposition makes it even less likely it was just some mistake caused by bug. EDIT: the scene with Scott if not intended also shouldn't be voiced, so it's another thing that would make it painfully obvious to Prima team that something's wrong. The easiest explanation remains the most plausible one, specially when it fits with the other thing that makes Suvi stand out - not giving the slighest hint what her sexuality is as the only non-bisexual romance interest. There's also the fact her voice actress said she didn't know her character is supposed to be gay (though it could be just teasing straight guys -- but then again she declared she wouldn't do something like that).
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Post by miso9 on Apr 5, 2017 20:27:00 GMT
Prima strikes again. Do the devs and/or writers not check it before it goes out! Sigh. The strange thing is other than those pictures the guide gets her romance right since multiple times it talks about how Suvi is available only to Sarah. I'm going with the idea of it being either a bugged or placeholder scene, or maybe a practical joke that was in poor taste by someone. There's dedicated space on each page for every picture so obviously it's easier to change a line of text than already saved screenshots.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 5, 2017 20:21:18 GMT
This should be the final word on the Suvi issue: Word of God. Conclusion achieved. Got answers. Thank you. I assume you reacted the same way when the Word of Casey Hudson told you there are no lesbian romances in Mass Effect because Asari are genderless species?
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Post by miso9 on Apr 5, 2017 20:16:35 GMT
After this accusation I think any reasonable discussion with you is impossible. You are resorting to personal attacks, implying I'm awful ill-intentioned person who just wants to make "them" fail. All the evidence to the contrary casts huge doubt on Sheryl's statement so I'm personally not convinced by it, but it's also not like I blame her for anything since I know she doesn't really have much to say in decision making. Since she apparently fought for bi Vetra maybe it was even her who's behind Suvi being locked for f/f only, that she actually fought to provide lesbians at least this substitute for representation, even if her supervisors had her write Suvi as originally yet another romance option for Scott. I'm sorry if you feel "attacked", I'm getting physically tired of all this thing, because we're shitting on Bioware for theories instead of focusing on real problems (real lack of m/m, animations, bugs, etc), and this thread is not the place for that. In other words, "sorry you feel offended". You're not going to dictate what "real problems" are. And I criticized m/m issue too, thank you very much, while your post history shows that you mention it only for the purpose of distraction -- your previous and the only other mention, in this very thread: "I honestly feel worse for m/m romances shippers that only have 2 romances". Says it all. You know how does your wording look like? "I hate it so it's stupid and fake! I can debunk it BIGLY!". Nevermind this "debunk" is just your theories meant to defend this team at all cost. Your response to the screenshot? Prima Guide messed it up!! But how, they just played what Bioware sent them? It was a bug!! But surely they would know it and wouldn't even try to romance her in Scott gameplay? They're just lazy!!There's only one claim that deserves some consideration here - the claim that there are only audio files with Sara's name. Still wouldn't be anything definitive but would cast some actual doubt. But I certainly won't believe you for a word, last time I checked datamining thread they were only focused on Jaal and no one really paid much attention to Suvi. Oh, it's another "shitty" very ill-intentioned spooky team of people that just did it intentionally, to make us hate Bioware! Sure, believe that. Nothing will shake your faith in this studio, which even putting this thing aside treated gay male players like sh*t and there's no question about that. But I assume it stops being any problem when it's not used to distract the attention from the issues of lesbian players?
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Post by miso9 on Apr 5, 2017 11:09:58 GMT
Ugh, don't get them started. Basically, you experienced 2 of the only 3 sex scenes from all romances, which explains itself, really. really? I would imagine peebee had one as well as liam, and suvi (I know gil doesn't so I won't bring it up.) I wouldn't be suprised about vetra not getting one but the rest... Then you imagined it wrong. Suvi doesn't have one. The only sex scenes are straight (plus one "lesbian" sex scene with Peebee, which is just straight sex scene with switched model and it just makes it look really ridiculous).
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Post by miso9 on Apr 5, 2017 11:05:37 GMT
I would be content with just one actually lesbian character, you know, one that wasn't written as another option for straight men and just artificially locked for f/f at the last minute.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 5, 2017 10:42:37 GMT
It could be just a damage control she was told to say. Simple "no" won't stop the doubt when there are so many things contradicting her statement which she didn't address at all. The stuff with Prima Guide is not merely wrong information. They did that before (and most of the time the reason was Bioware changing things in final build), but the thing is, the information is correct, Suvi is romanceable by women only, it's the screenshot from gameplay they attached that shows her romancing Scott. What's the probability that Bioware sent them game's build that somehow had a "bug" that allowed male Ryder to romance Suvi? What's more, even if there was a bug why would those guide's guys still take those screenshots and put them into guide while knowing from the start she's supposed to be gay and it's just a bug? And if it was just that one thing I could believe it was some really weird error or something, but it's not just one thing. Suvi also, unlike every other non-bisexual romance interest never gives even the slighest hint what her sexuality is, when Liam, Cora and Gil make you know that they like men/women. She hides her sexuality from Scott hitting on her and you will have no idea she's supposed to be lesbian if you don't read forums. And the last thing, remember how Suvi's voice actress said that she has no idea about the rumors Suvi is gay? She was accused of teasing straight guys at the expense of lesbians which seemed to really hurt her and she even mentioned in response she wouldn't do that because she's a part of LGBT community. So most likely she really had no idea her character is supposed to be gay. Which means she wasn't given any memo saying that, and that she most likely recorded romance lines directed at Scott. -It's clear that whatever they say, you'll never change your mind, because you just want them to fail.After this accusation I think any reasonable discussion with you is impossible. You are resorting to personal attacks, implying I'm awful ill-intentioned person who just wants to make "them" fail. All the evidence to the contrary casts huge doubt on Sheryl's statement so I'm personally not convinced by it, but it's also not like I blame her for anything since I know she doesn't really have much to say in decision making. Since she apparently fought for bi Vetra maybe it was even her who's behind Suvi being locked for f/f only, that she actually fought to provide lesbians at least this substitute for representation, even if her supervisors had her write Suvi as originally yet another romance option for Scott.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 5, 2017 9:21:55 GMT
This should be the final word on the Suvi issue: It could be just a damage control she was told to say. Simple "no" won't stop the doubt when there are so many things contradicting her statement which she didn't address at all. The stuff with Prima Guide is not merely wrong information. They did that before (and most of the time the reason was Bioware changing things in final build), but the thing is, the information is correct, Suvi is romanceable by women only, it's the screenshot from gameplay they attached that shows her romancing Scott. What's the probability that Bioware sent them game's build that somehow had a "bug" that allowed male Ryder to romance Suvi? What's more, even if there was a bug why would those guide's guys still take those screenshots and put them into guide while knowing from the start she's supposed to be gay and it's just a bug? And if it was just that one thing I could believe it was some really weird error or something, but it's not just one thing. Suvi also, unlike every other non-bisexual romance interest never gives even the slighest hint what her sexuality is, when Liam, Cora and Gil make you know that they like men/women. She hides her sexuality from Scott hitting on her and you will have no idea she's supposed to be lesbian if you don't read forums. And the last thing, remember how Suvi's voice actress said that she has no idea about the rumors Suvi is gay? She was accused of teasing straight guys at the expense of lesbians which seemed to really hurt her and she even mentioned in response she wouldn't do that because she's a part of LGBT community. So most likely she really had no idea her character is supposed to be gay. Which means she wasn't given any memo saying that, and that she most likely recorded romance lines directed at Scott.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 4, 2017 21:03:45 GMT
I agree that the game is tailored towards hetero males. Statically 90+% of female players will be hetero so why the big skew toward lesbian romances? Hetero male - 5 options Lesbian female - 5 options Hetero female - 3 options Homosexual male - 2 options Hetero females aren't even the minority - which makes the bias stand out more. Hetero females will statically be the second largest player group after hetero males, yet they are almost as underrepresented as homosexual males. Because straight men initially had 6 romances and all "lesbian romances" are just copypaste of straight male romances, it cost them nothing to do it. Even the "lesbian" character was designed as another romance option for Scott. There's no content in this game created just for lesbians. And BTW, it's untrue lesbians have 5 options - it's 4 - Suvi, Peebee, Vetra and the fling with Asari reporter.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 4, 2017 20:55:35 GMT
How do you know she's a lesbian? Maybe she's a straight woman who during the course of the game just happens to fall in love with a person, not the gender, and that person happens to be Sara? Or like our friend from this thread constantly insists she's not a lesbian but asexual? Or whatever that can be guessed about character written and designed as straight romance option and then just artificially locked for women month before release. I noticed you said in your earlier comments that you're not a gay woman. So maybe you'll be interested what's the opinion of this gay woman. In short, representation and not being treated like a complete afterthought are things that are important to me. I have never once insisted that Suvi is asexual or not a lesbian. Seriously, people need to knock that off and stop putting words in my mouth. I said she can be interpreted as a nonsexual romance, as in a romance that does not involve sex. There are people of all orientations who have relationships like that for a variety of reasons. So how do you imagine that? If they have sexual needs and feel sexual attraction they don't have sex because they wear chastity belt? Sorry for jumping to conclusion you meant asexuality.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 4, 2017 20:37:43 GMT
I don't see the point of this, but it's no worse than #MakeJaalBi, even though it will be treated as terrible by the same people advocating the latter. I remember that with the ME3 and DAI mods. Making characters like Cassandra or Cullen available for same-sex relationships was seen as totally fine, but making characters like Samantha or Sera available for opposite-sex relationships was seen as being terrible person despite it being the exact same thing. Ever heard of such ideas like 'reparative therapy'? Now answer yourself this question, what people does it affect. And another question, what does making gay character straight resembles. I personally don't have any big issues with people making mods, but it's obvious why one is not symmetrical to another and it's ridiculous to claim it's the exact same thing.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 4, 2017 20:19:48 GMT
But thirdly, in the end, how much does it matter? In the end, Suvi is a female only romance, she's quite an important character (unlike Gil who feels a bit tacked on) and she's decidedly not Traynor OR Kelly (but no Sera either!). As long as Bioware don't change it!! Mind it does show Bioware's Mass Effect team are completely clueless and their attitude towards LGBT issues is poor - but did we need more evidence of that! How do you know she's a lesbian? Maybe she's a straight woman who during the course of the game just happens to fall in love with a person, not the gender, and that person happens to be Sara? Or like our friend from this thread constantly insists she's not a lesbian but asexual? Or whatever that can be guessed about character written and designed as straight romance option and then just artificially locked for women month before release. I noticed you said in your earlier comments that you're not a gay woman. So maybe you'll be interested what's the opinion of this gay woman. In short, representation and not being treated like a complete afterthought are things that are important to me.
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Post by miso9 on Apr 4, 2017 19:57:51 GMT
I think there's no black and white here, Gil was created as gay option, but his romance with Jill in between has a lot of homophobic connotations (screw you with your breeding plan sister) and lesbians are just a toy they keep using for their dudebros pandering. Either way LGBTQ players are second class to them, and we're screwed anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ We can unite ourselves with torches and pitchforks instead of fighting for who was screwed the most this time. Our salt is our power peeps. If my comments look like I try to argue that lesbian players have it worse than gay men then I apologize, English is not my first language and sometimes it's hard for me to 100% accurately translate my thoughts. What I argued against was conclusion that because lesbians got 4 options we have no right to complain. Perhaps I unnecessarily mentioned Gil in this argument, but it was to emphasize different aspects that should be taken into consideration before making such judgments. But you're right, we are evidently both second class players to this team and they would want nothing more than have us infighting.
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