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Post by ariatloak on May 10, 2017 20:41:48 GMT
I'm really conflicted about the news. On one hand I think overall MEA had some serious flaws which demonstrate Montreal was a bad choice. On another, I really don't think the HUGE disparity between reception for MEA and DAI is fair. DAI is definitely a better game, but it is extremely boring to play with fetchquests generating most of the content, and with the power system MEA doesn't have, it's very difficult to skip them. The story in DAI is also threadbare, the villain weak and unmemorable, and the mage/Templar cliffhanger from da2 isnt remotely addressed in a substantial and satisfying way. And DAI received universal acclaim, whereas the MEA reviews have basically been understood to be relatively terrible if not absolutely so.
Personally I think both games' major flaws stem from bioware trying to cash in on the open world trend and not doing so successfully. I wish that would be their overall assessment, rather than DAI = perfect and MEA = terrible as I feel like they might have understood it to be. That does upset me because it's a little unfair. But I do objectively think MEA was deeply flawed so it's not like I disagree....
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Post by ariatloak on May 10, 2017 19:24:47 GMT
I can't believe they patched makeup onto Sara and did nothing for gay men I mean I can easily believe it but it's just like my worst nightmare god I hate MEA devs
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Post by ariatloak on May 10, 2017 7:55:44 GMT
I don't think she is arguing that they are the same or even similar, but that she don't trust Bioware to make that distinction which is understandable. I seriously doubt even BioWare would not understand such simple concepts. If they made Suvi Bi it wouldn't be because they thought it was fair. I mean, the issue here is that it is a very simple concept to say "if changing one character's sexuality is okay, changing sexuality is okay in general". It's complicated to say "there's a huge difference between making a straight character bi and a gay character bi". That's why you see people making bi Dorian and bi sera mods defending themselves by bringing up bi Cassandra and bi Cullen mods. Those people aren't just playing dumb, to understand that those things are not the same and one is homophobic and one is not requires an understanding of homophobia bioware absolutely can't be trusted to have at this point IMO, considering they saw no issue with no gay squadmate in the first place, or gil's romance being all about being chided into procreation, etc. I think we're dealing with the absolute bare minimum here. That said, at the very least I think bioware is aware opening this box would lead to incessant requests about changing XYZ chr so I think they will never do it. Kaidan is a unique example I think where it became truly indefensible that they had no gay options for male Shepard, but they obviously didn't put a lot of effort into having any dialogue about kaidan not realising he was into men until later or anything that would have explained it within canon. Just shoved it at us and washed their hands with it. I don't think they'll do that again, they were clearly reluctant and felt their hand was forced by how BLATANT the homophobia was. M!Ryder can still be gay - with two people! So I really don't think they're gonna understand the specific importance of bi jaal any time soon, nor seek to usurp any elements of their game for it.
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Post by ariatloak on May 10, 2017 7:34:12 GMT
Unfortunately the same metric that would justify making jaal bi could easily be used for suvi if she also has Scott lines/models/was listed in an official guide as a romance option at one point. Frankly that's a Pandora's box I don't want bioware to open. We are vastly outnumbered by the straight men who would clamour for them to patch suvi and traynor as fuckable by their male protags and bioware definitely isn't capable of making the nuanced distinction that needs.
What would mostly avoid that is having jaal be bi in mea2 if he's still a squadmate (or mea3) but again, they would probably do the same with suvi were that to happen. They're both the only romance options who don't explicitly cite sexuality when turning you down, so they're equally fair game. Not to mention they really hammered home jaal's attraction to women at every possible opportunity. Personally I would rather bioware create an exclusively gay male alien squadmate for the next game. Preferably a quarian! Really sold on that idea for some reason.
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Post by ariatloak on May 5, 2017 3:42:34 GMT
In theory that makes sense, yeah, but obviously there's a huge disconnect between the intentions and end product, because if there really was no homophobia in the world, MUCH more people would be openly gay/bi, and ME wouldn't have the tiny smattering of LGBT squadmates it does, fshep wouldn't be able to respond with disgust to the idea of romancing Liara in ME1, and Ryder wouldn't have transphobic responses to Hainley (and a non-tevinter inq to krem!), etc. It's just hard for me to suspend disbelief that it's a homo/transphobia free world when homophobia so obviously informs the way it's created in the real world. And there's definitely many instances of explicit misogyny (especially directed towards femshep) in the OT, so I don't really see why we'd have some equalities and not others. Like I definitely think that's the intention, but they haven't been consistent enough about proving it for me to be able to believe it. Especially with regard to gender politics - tons of male characters in it are gruff alpha male archetypes, admittedly less so in the squadmates but tons of people you interact with. It's true they have an ability to subvert it (Macen is definitely not a typical gay character) and play LGBT content as existing casually, but they fail to do this so frequently too. DAO was particularly glaring with a proclamation in the character creator that Ferelden has gender equality, only to open with one origin focused around how rich nobles can get away with raping female elves, Morrigan's dialogue about how men always think they're smarter than women, etc etc. They can't have their cake and eat it too on this, and the gaps between what they might say and what actually exists are too large. I'm not sure where I stand on the issue of how "queer"-coded a LGBT character should seem. On one hand, I'm a little frustrated any time a cis straight character is portrayed in ways that are very "coded" gay, not because people like that don't exist. But that it seems more important to people to portray a ton of different kinds of straight people than a ton of different kinds of bi, gay, etc people. Whereas butch lesbians are very rarely portrayed in media and, when they are, often either: 1. have their gender nonconformity toned down majorly, or 2. are portrayed as caricatures that are either the butt of a joke or are portrayed as outright depraved/disgusting (see: Big Boo from OITNB at times, though admittedly is a more nuanced portrayal than most examples). Similarly with straight dudes being portrayed as super flamboyant and crossdressing, though to a lesser extent. If we had tons of different gay/bi chrs, it would be much less of an issue. Some gay/bi people consider being so integral to who they are, some don't, so the end product should just be a wide range rather than just one of the two. Unfortunately when you only have a handful of gay/bi significant characters, you will be making profound implications and contrasts you wouldn't if you just had many. For example I think ME does pretty well on having a wide range of different women, though they mess up in other ways (almost all of them being extremely conventionally attractive and sex appeal often being a big focus, for example), Liara, Samara, Peebee, Vetra, Jack, Miranda, Tali, etc etc are all very different people and you would never draw a conclusion about bioware's representation of how women act from one alone, just like their male characters. (Though there are definitely some sexist commonalities in the way they can be romanced by mshep and other ways you could treat them as a group, they definitely do not all lack depth compared to the men)
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Post by ariatloak on May 5, 2017 2:26:42 GMT
My 2 cents re the gay chrs vs gay chrs who happen to be gay: I think the latter is more preferable from straight writers who, when writing Gay Characters, immediately default to very underwritten side characters, but with regards to real life I don't really feel like it's a valid statement for most that gay people just Happen to be people who are gay. Personally, I would be a very different person if I wasn't a lesbian, because knowledge of homophobia has crucially shaped a lot of my life, especially during significant times like adolescence. This is the case for most gay people I'm friends with, too. I do know other people for whom it hasn't been as big a deal, but I really do think the experience of being such a minority and so isolated from the incredibly intense culture of heteronormativity we are all exposed to has a pretty profound effect on most gay people who feel alienated and resentful and hurt by that their whole lives. It might not change our interests or basic personality, but I think it often impacts our more deeper core personality traits, wellbeing, outlook on the world etc pretty significantly. I've only listed negative examples, but there are definitely positive ones too, for example, I find gay/bi men who have been rejecting heteronormativity all their lives correspondingly much less likely to conform to the sexism, reliance on offensive humour, and emotional repression that's taught to straight men, and more emotionally fulfilling and respectful people to be friends with. And in general any experience of lived opression is likely to make someone more compassionate, empathetic, etc, and being a member of the LGBT community can be a profoundly uplifting thing that will really change how you look at the world.
This is why the character of Dorian didn't bother me at all, though I know that wasn't the case for a lot of people here who were upset by him. For me, because he's written by a gay man - who has openly acknowledged how pertinent Dorian's arc is to his own experience of homophobia - I find the character very refreshing and unique in the landscape of LGBT characters. It's true that we too-frequently get tragic backstories attached to gay characters, so I understand why some people dislike him, but for me personally knowing it was written by a gay man makes all the difference. I would agree that it's best to move past experiencing homophobia as the defining character trait for him, but I think the game's progression + Trespasser showed that they're shifting the focus to his strong love and despair for Tevinter, which I think is a smart move. He's definitely a well-fleshed out character to me, but his sexuality being core to his character is not something I see as a flaw at all. Especially considering the popularity he had amongst straight men, who all may have learned something from him they might not have if it wasn't really brought up.
Compare to Sera, whose sexuality is a non-issue. I care about her far less. I wouldn't necessairily want her to have any dealings with homophobia, because definitely one character out of the two is enough, but I would have appreciated it if her lesbian-ness was given a bigger light. Again, this is all a matter of personal preference, and I appreciate that some people in this thread have said to them Sera is the far better gay representation. I understand that, just trying to suggest how the other side can feel.
To use a non-bioware example that I think several would recognise, Jeri Hogarth, the lawyer in the Marvel's Jessica Jones Netflix series who was played by Aria T'loak's VA, is an example of a straight male chr who was genderflipped into a lesbian. That was the only change, leaving his personality entirely intact, including the saga of his messy divorce with his wife after cheating on her with his secretary. I find her character very compelling, but it doesn't quite ring as true as the straight male version because I think it's a given that straight men are more likely to cheat on their wives with their secretaries than gay women are. Not that lesbians don't cheat, but the specific trope of 'my wife isn't as hot as my big boobed much younger secretary' definitely has some very specific tie-ins to straight maleness as a sociocultural thing. So sometimes I think changing nothing but sexuality can obscure some of the ways we as gay/bi people are unique, and the ways in which we love.
To me, Suvi is identical either as a lesbian or straight. I don't really care about her on that level. I feel a much closer tie to characters like Vetra, Merril and Isabela, whose attraction to women seems much more integral to who they are. Simply having it brought up in banter repeatedly can be enough, but that's an extra mile I don't think Bioware would go if their tactic was just to write characters as straight then duplicate a gay romance for them at the end and maybe axe the straight one. So while I don't think we always get great results when they sit down and think 'I have to write A Gay', I do want them to be understanding enough of gay people to ascribe traits that often go alongside gayness to them. If they followed this, I think it's a given that emotionally expressive male characters like Liam and Jaal would be more likely to be bi/gay, and butch-appearing characters like Jack, Cora, Cassandra etc would be bi/lesbians. It's difficult to nail down what I actually want, because their track record is so poor. But I feel like having gayness in their minds from conception of a character definitely doesn't have to be a defect to that character's depth. And if it is in practice, I think that's the fault of their homophobia, not the idea itself.
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Post by ariatloak on May 4, 2017 8:04:51 GMT
Backreading and wow who would have thought an aversion to gay sex could be linked to a homophobic religion
On another topic, I've never played any of the fallout games, if I were to would it be best to do so in order? I have an Xbox 360 and my laptop can handle old games pretty good not sure what platform they're on
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Post by ariatloak on May 2, 2017 19:07:06 GMT
Gotta say guys, as a lesbian let's be careful to imply lesbians always have it comparatively good. Bioware wrote themselves into a corner w/ asari, they knew they couldn't realistically justify an asari not being attracted to a human woman as they are essentially blue human women, so asari will always be bisexual, but in a way bioware clearly doesn't value or consider gay considering their comments on liara not being a gay romance and the fact Peebee gets a reused nonsensical dick riding sex scene for fryder. Vetra is the only female bisexual squadmate in the series who didn't have to be bi, and according to rumours that's only because her writer really fought for it. Suvi and Gil are about on par, Gil has slightly more to his romance, and I would say Traynor has slightly more to her character than Cortez in ME3. it's true that the "hawt lesbians" factor for dudebros is at play here, but the only character that really explains being bi is Kelly, the biggest non-romance in the series imo. So yes, lesbian players had two squadmate options in MEA, but be careful to avoid implying that f/f players are always safe or don't have to worry about homophobia affecting their choices. It looks like we almost didn't have anything but an asari, and if Sheryl Cree had written Jaal or Liam maybe she could have made sure they were bi, but that wouldn't negate Bioware's homophobia overall. They are clearly miles behind dragon age and we are all suffering for it, lesbians included. We definitely got the better deal with MEA specifically, and fshep/liara happens to be a wonderful romance, but it wasn't written with us in mind.
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Post by ariatloak on Apr 27, 2017 14:46:56 GMT
Unfortunately this also just adds to how much ME2 feels sort of inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. Such a shame since a comparatively low stakes "getting intel about Reapers" mission is perfect for the second game but they ruined it in a lot of ways. Particularly by making the Collector Base decision not matter at all in ME3 - possibly the absolute worst your-decisions-don't-really-matter sin in the entire trilogy, just such bullshit. I think it should be possible to allow everyone to live in the SM but it should've been much, much more difficult to do so than it is. Maybe even depend on ME1 decisions somehow like how Rannoch depends on ME2. But as long as the stakes end up actually seeming high enough, as long as they can give us the impression that succeeding in ME2 actually mattered and was something of an impossible feat, being able to save everyone wouldn't downplay the victory so much. Even if one or two people die on the SM it doesn't make the mission seem much more of a big deal by the time you get to ME3, just... well, X died on that one mission, too bad they aren't here to help with the actual saving-the-galaxy mission. If you think about it from the perspective of the average person playing the game through to the end, I don't think it was too easy to get the ideal SM ending. It was incredibly easy to have (at the very least) Tali and Jacob die even having done most of the side content. Sure, it's simple enough for completionists and for people who replay the game, but that's a relatively small group. I do think it should have been easier to kill of most or all of them - I tried to do a run where Garrus died to see how ME3 worked without him, and somehow he kept surviving. Eventually I gave up and just edited my save file for that one. It was worth it to see the changes though, which I think that's an argument in favour of non-mandatory deaths since it meant there was more reason to replay with various dead/alive ratios. Either way I do agree that MEA definitely suffered from a lack of squad deaths, optional or mandatory. There just wasn't enough suspense (or drama) as it was. Yeah, it would be one thing if just doing all the loyalty missions was sufficient, but not only do you have to do those, you have to build reputation consistently enough to solve the loyalty conflicts, you have to buy the upgrades that really aren't earmarked as essential to you by the narrative at any point, you have to pick the right people for the tasks and leave a good amount of high defense squadmates behind. I really think most people who first played without a guide lost at least one person, and I know a couple people who lost like ten squadmates. I definitely think it's sufficiently hard to keep everyone alive that it feels good as a reward for careful playing.
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Post by ariatloak on Apr 22, 2017 22:27:53 GMT
Isn't it confirmed the code for Jaal didnt have romance flags though?
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Post by ariatloak on Apr 21, 2017 18:42:10 GMT
I understand having a personal preference for non sexual romances, but that simply isn't anywhere near as societally important as having gay and straight romances treated equally and seeing gay sex - an incredibly censored and taboo subject subject to so much homophobia and exclusion from media over the years - represented. Gay ppl have struggled with being sexually neutered in media for decades, so they're really an unfortunate choice for any advocacy of nonsexual representation.
Bioware have made it clear they have no issue showing Scott bone Cora or Jaal go down on Sara or Peebee ride Scott's dick. Personally, I find all of those romance scenes hard to watch, and I really don't think bioware needed to go to that level. But because they have, I demand we get the same, and that means Suvi doing the same Jaal did and Gil/Scott being like Scott/Cora. I wouldn't have demanded it before, but bioware have set a standard that they've implemented in a homophobic way.
I personally think the best middle ground is the ME3 sex scenes for liara, kaidan and Ashley, which were sexual but not over the top. I would like them to stick to this standard in the future, but there are some truly beautiful aspects of the Cora/Scott scene- like their constant exchange of little kisses while laughing and talking to SAM - that we can bring in as well.
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Post by ariatloak on Apr 6, 2017 2:49:07 GMT
I think Gil's romance is a classic example of something an LGBT writer would probably not have done but a straight writer is more inclined to not understand the problems with. I have a feeling Sheryl Cree is bi or gay herself, though I've made no attempt to find out, because vetra/fryder (and vetra hitting on Suvi/calling asari hot in a believable and subtle way) felt much more natural and attuned to genuine gay experiences.
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Post by ariatloak on Mar 21, 2017 8:30:13 GMT
The issue w the bi chrs referencing one gender a lot is that it's almost always clearly designed to placate straight gamer bros like "this character is gay but not too gay." That's obviously not how bisexuality works in real life and for real people, but these aren't real people, and when Anders brings up Karl with mhawke but is mum with fhawke, & iron bull, kaidan and reyes mention their attraction to specific women but not men in casual conversation, it's part of a pattern that definitely reflects the implicit homophobia of the writers and catering to the kinds of self professed anti-sjw gamers who freaked out when kaidan hit on them, etc.
Obviously in the real world bi ppl are not in any way obliged to show equal interest in the genders they're attracted to. It's just frustrating that the (almost entirely straight I imagine) writers and devs keep doing this to fictional characters with a key reason in mind, I think we can safely assume.
I hope the leaked audio of vetra talking about finding a woman on the tempest cute shows up regardless of whether or not you're romancing her as fRyder, but I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't unless you were.
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Post by ariatloak on Mar 21, 2017 5:10:30 GMT
btw we're still sure abt bi vetra after the jaal fuckery right? everything points to it but I'm a little concerned there's already multiple mryder/vetra youtube videos and none for fryder. Primal guide shows Vetra is available for both gender, but no video proof yet. So I can't say I'm fully convinced. MTE, at this point im vids or it didnt happen about all of this lol
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Post by ariatloak on Mar 21, 2017 4:56:43 GMT
btw we're still sure abt bi vetra after the jaal fuckery right? everything points to it but I'm a little concerned there's already multiple mryder/vetra youtube videos and none for fryder.
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Post by ariatloak on Mar 20, 2017 20:50:28 GMT
I just don't understand - what were they thinking? What did they expect? Who thought making Jaal straight was a good idea? important questions What it saddens me more is that bi Kaidan writer IS Jaal writer, I feel so betrayed. Honestly I feel like it's reasonable to assume he was bi at one point and it was scrapped so hopefully the writer had nothing to do with that. I feel like someone on the dev team when accepting bi vetra said 'we can't have all the aliens be bi though' tho ofc this is just speculation based on the code
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Post by ariatloak on Mar 20, 2017 20:42:32 GMT
if we have no confirmation that a flirt option for scott even exists does that mean there's no gender flag in the code because there's just nothing to flag? so in theory jaal wouldn't not respond to scott, but scott's lines just don't exist so the issue never arises? that implies he was bi at some point then cut - perhaps in a swap for making Vetra bi. feels even worse if so But there IS a gender flag for Jaal. Right, but the flag says both genders are acceptable correct? It's unlike Liam/Cora etc which provide a different path depending on Ryder's gender. Sorry I should have been clearer, by 'no gender flag' i meant 'no specific romance initiates flag tied to gender.'
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Post by ariatloak on Mar 20, 2017 20:27:26 GMT
if we have no confirmation that a flirt option for scott even exists does that mean there's no gender flag in the code because there's just nothing to flag? so in theory jaal wouldn't not respond to scott, but scott's lines just don't exist so the issue never arises? that implies he was bi at some point then cut - perhaps in a swap for making Vetra bi. feels even worse if so
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Post by ariatloak on Mar 20, 2017 18:46:50 GMT
Idk if anyone's suggested this but my presumption for why there's such conflicting info re: Jaal in the code/multiple reviewers is that unlike Cora, Liam etc, he never explicitly says to Scott 'not interested because you're a man.' I imagine the devs felt that was too pedestrian and mundane for what is clearly their biggest attempt at a truly Alien squadmate. I imagine the flirt options for Scott either do not exist, or they exist but following them just doesn't lead anywhere and you have to take a hint.
Truly frustrating. No intended gay squadmate romances if we know that Vetra was added in later (and asari f/f really doesn't signify as much since they've written themselves into a corner w asari basically being automatically female), the two gay NPCs were clearly added just to placate gay ppl if there are no straight Tempest romances, and both lack sex and are underwritten compared to squadmates and DAI advisors. No m/m squad romance, a step back from 5 years previously. It's clear this MEA team really has no idea what actual devoted allyship looks like, unlike DAI, and doesn't benefit from an openly gay dev as they did either.
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