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Post by Catilina on May 2, 2018 18:37:11 GMT
Yes it is law. I agree that a law can be unjust and that those laws should be changed or eliminated, but that doesn't negate it being a law. To use a real world comparison, laws that discriminated against people based on things like their race, sex, orientation, religion, etc. are unjust laws but unfortunately they were still the law. But to break them, serves the good, and to comply with these law is a sin.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 2, 2018 18:40:47 GMT
Yes it is law. I agree that a law can be unjust and that those laws should be changed or eliminated, but that doesn't negate it being a law. To use a real world comparison, laws that discriminated against people based on things like their race, sex, orientation, religion, etc. are unjust laws but unfortunately they were still the law. But to break them, serves the good, and to comply with these law is a sin. To break the law is also a sin. Especially breaking laws such as laws against murder.
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Post by Catilina on May 2, 2018 18:46:40 GMT
But to break them, serves the good, and to comply with these law is a sin. To break the law is also a sin. Especially breaking laws such as laws against murder. Break the wrong law isn't sin, only in the eyes of the lawmakers – but these are irrelevant, because they created a wrong law: so they were, who committed the sin. Sometimes the violence is necessary. Not good, but still.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 2, 2018 18:49:46 GMT
To break the law is also a sin. Especially breaking laws such as laws against murder. Break the wrong law isn't sin, only in the eyes of the lawmakers – but these are irrelevant, because they created a wrong law: so they were, who committed the sin. What are you using as the definition of sin? Just asking since most religions and philosophies, even ones that when formed weren't supported by the lawmakers, have breaking the law as a sin especially if that law is about another sin for example murder since that is one of the if not the worst sin a person can commit for most of those.
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Post by Catilina on May 2, 2018 18:58:59 GMT
Break the wrong law isn't sin, only in the eyes of the lawmakers – but these are irrelevant, because they created a wrong law: so they were, who committed the sin. What are you using as the definition of sin? Just asking since most religions and philosophies, even ones that formed and weren't supported by the lawmakers, have breaking the law as a sin especially if that law is about another sin hence me mentioning murder since that is one of the if not the worst sin a person can commit for most of those. Yes, I know your opinion. And yes, the pacifists can shake their head disapprovingly, and can condemn the freedom fighters, who take the responsibility for the bloodseds, and with clean hand, the pacifist can enjoy the freedom what these sinner freedom fighters achieved. Everything has a cost.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 2, 2018 19:12:43 GMT
What are you using as the definition of sin? Just asking since most religions and philosophies, even ones that formed and weren't supported by the lawmakers, have breaking the law as a sin especially if that law is about another sin hence me mentioning murder since that is one of the if not the worst sin a person can commit for most of those. Yes, I know your opinion. And yes, the pacifists can shake their head disapprovingly, and can condemn the freedom fighters, who take the responsibility for the bloodseds, and with clean hand, the pacifist can enjoy the freedom what these sinner freedom fighters achieved. Everythinh has a cost. What I wrote in that post isn't opinion. It is a fact that most religions and philosophies believe what I wrote. Hence why I was asking for what your definition of sin was so I could better answer. But fine, be petty and don't answer the question.
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Post by Catilina on May 2, 2018 19:13:37 GMT
Yes, I know your opinion. And yes, the pacifists can shake their head disapprovingly, and can condemn the freedom fighters, who take the responsibility for the bloodseds, and with clean hand, the pacifist can enjoy the freedom what these sinner freedom fighters achieved. Everythinh has a cost. What I wrote in that post isn't opinion. It is a fact that most religions and philosophies believe what I wrote. Hence why I was asking for what your definition of sin was so I could better answer. But fine, be petty and don't answer the question. The slavery in Tevinter is legitimate. A slave who escape, breaks the law. To blow up the Magisterium to ignite the spark of the revolution is a law-break too, but my character would support that. Andraste fought against the Tevinter Magisters, she and Shartan killed many people, among them, certainly were many innocents too.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 2, 2018 19:14:50 GMT
What I wrote in that post isn't opinion. It is a fact that most religions and philosophies believe what I wrote. Hence why I was asking for what your definition of sin was so I could better answer. But fine, be petty and don't answer the question. The slavery in Tevinter is legitimate. A slave who escape, breaks the law. To blow up the Magisterium to ignite the spark of the revolution is a law-break too, but my character would support that. Andraste fought against the Tevinter Magisters, she and Shartan killed many people, amiong them were innocents too. You still haven't answered my question.
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Post by Catilina on May 2, 2018 19:17:03 GMT
The slavery in Tevinter is legitimate. A slave who escape, breaks the law. To blow up the Magisterium to ignite the spark of the revolution is a law-break too, but my character would support that. Andraste fought against the Tevinter Magisters, she and Shartan killed many people, amiong them were innocents too. You still haven't answered my question. Which question? The murder is a sin? It is.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 2, 2018 19:22:48 GMT
You still haven't answered my question. Which question? The murder is a sin? It is. What are you using as the definition of sin?
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Post by Catilina on May 2, 2018 19:28:32 GMT
Which question? The murder is a sin? It is. What are you using as the definition of sin? Sin is pure morally definition. Laws, made by the people, has nothing to do with it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 2, 2018 19:41:36 GMT
What are you using as the definition of sin? Sin is pure morally definition. Laws, made by the people, has nothing to do with it. So you have no definition, twisting it to fit what you want it to and not fit what you don't want it to. In that case there is no point continuing this conversation since you'll just keep changing the definition to fit your whim.
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Post by Catilina on May 2, 2018 20:20:57 GMT
Sin is pure morally definition. Laws, made by the people, has nothing to do with it. So you have no definition, twisting it to fit what you want it to and not fit what you don't want it to. In that case there is no point continuing this conversation since you'll just keep changing the definition to fit your whim. My definition's clear: for example, the lie is a sin, but if anyone lies to save people's lives, the intention justifies the lie. The definition is clear: the murder is a sin. For example, Anders is guilty. He committed sin but his act still justified by the system. What Meredith did in the Circle, in Kirkwall, not justified, neither morally, nor from the Chantry's law view.
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Post by Cantina on May 2, 2018 21:34:34 GMT
First and foremost, using the word "sin" is a bit much. Not everyone is religious. Personally, if you want to try tomake your point validated, perhaps its best not use the word, "sin" out of respect.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and I think I finally understand why people call Anders a terrorist. Cause he used a bomb. How prosaic.
But, since Solas and Lohgan did not use a bomb, there not terrorists. (shakes head).
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 2, 2018 22:15:32 GMT
First and foremost, using the word "sin" is a bit much. Not everyone is religious. Personally, if you want to try tomake your point validated, perhaps its best not use the word, "sin" out of respect. I'm going to go out on a limb here and I think I finally understand why people call Anders a terrorist. Cause he used a bomb. How prosaic. But, since Solas and Lohgan did not use a bomb, there not terrorists. (shakes head). No, I call Anders a terrorist because he is a person who employs terrorism tactics. Terrorism has been a thing for thousands of years, long before gunpowder was invented. I don’t really know how Solas waged his rebellion against the Evanuris so can’t say, but Loghain’s actions also qualify him as a terrorist since he used terrorism tactics in his bid to control the throne.
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Post by Catilina on May 2, 2018 22:17:59 GMT
First and foremost, using the word "sin" is a bit much. Not everyone is religious. Personally, if you want to try tomake your point validated, perhaps its best not use the word, "sin" out of respect. I'm going to go out on a limb here and I think I finally understand why people call Anders a terrorist. Cause he used a bomb. How prosaic. But, since Solas and Lohgan did not use a bomb, there not terrorists. (shakes head). No, I call Anders a terrorist because he is a person who employs terrorism tactics. Terrorism has been a thing for thousands of years, long before gunpowder was invented. I don’t really know how Solas waged his rebellion against the Evanuris so can’t say, but Loghain’s actions also qualify him as a terrorist since he used terrorism tactics in his bid to control the throne. Your terrorist is our freedom fighter. Andraste and Shartan...
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Post by Cantina on May 3, 2018 2:19:16 GMT
No, I call Anders a terrorist because he is a person who employs terrorism tactics. Terrorism has been a thing for thousands of years, long before gunpowder was invented. I don’t really know how Solas waged his rebellion against the Evanuris so can’t say, but Loghain’s actions also qualify him as a terrorist since he used terrorism tactics in his bid to control the throne. Your terrorist is our freedom fighter. Andraste and Shartan... Exactly. I don't see how a person who fight for the freedom of others can be a terrorist. Seems to me The Chantry fits being a terrorist far more then Anders. Their Exalted March on the Dales stands-out.
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Post by Catilina on May 3, 2018 9:24:19 GMT
Would any of you still be whistling the same tune if your fave Andrastian characters happened to be in that Chantry or died to the debris? Would you still find it necessary? Anders' is Andrastian. A lot. I just say. Sebastian? I would feel sorry for him – but at least he wouldn't try to annex Kirkwall for his personal revenge, in the middle of the world chaos. A true Andrastian character must be very angry at Elthina and the Chantry. I love the rebellion part of the game, this is my favourite part in fact, I waited for it, from my first origin, so I can say, Anders was right. Without him, this wouldn't happen – and Meredith would annul the Circle, quietly. Nobody would care about an annulment, nobody cares about the violence behind the closed doors. By the way, what about, if instead of Alain, Karras would "visit" Bethany in the cell...?
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Post by Cantina on May 3, 2018 10:42:29 GMT
Would any of you still be whistling the same tune if your fave Andrastian characters happened to be in that Chantry or died to the debris? Would you still find it necessary? Unless freedom takes cash, card or check, yes I would - without hesitation.
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Post by Catilina on May 3, 2018 17:20:22 GMT
Anders' is Andrastian. A lot. I just say. Sebastian? I would feel sorry for him – but at least he wouldn't try to annex Kirkwall for his personal revenge, in the middle of the world chaos. A true Andrastian character must be very angry at Elthina and the Chantry. I love the rebellion part of the game, this is my favourite part in fact, I waited for it, from my first origin, so I can say, Anders was right. Without him, this wouldn't happen – and Meredith would annul the Circle, quietly. Nobody would care about an annulment, nobody cares about the violence behind the closed doors. By the way, what about, if instead of Alain, Karras would "visit" Bethany in the cell...? And what about Varric, Fenris, or Aveline? I would still support the Templars. I may as well advocate for getting rid of the guards while I'm at it since I can't prevent all abuses they've committed and will inevitably commit. But that particular hypothetical scenario is impossible for me anyway. Karras happens to be dead at the time. So... It would be sad.But what they would find in the Chantry in this late time? The Hanged man was their place rather... Perhaps Aveline... the Chantry always was full of criminals... Isabela's slave traders, the criminal Templars who make the Chantry as a trap for Anders. Petrice's mob... so perhaps Aveline would there for killing criminals... You would. Karras can be dead, but there are the others... but do you think, Karras and Alrik there the only criminals? When Alric died (and this world Karras also was died), a Mage NPC said, no matter, Alric died, nothing changed...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 3, 2018 18:02:16 GMT
Would any of you still be whistling the same tune if your fave Andrastian characters happened to be in that Chantry or died to the debris? Would you still find it necessary? Freedom is worth fighting and dying for. Yes, if Anders died in the Chantry I'd still support him. Innocents always die in a war you can try to prevent it as best you can as Anders did and blew the Chantry at night. If Fenris was in the Chantry that night it would have been horrible as the civilians and Chantry personal that were killed that night but Hawke wouldn't change what Anders did. There was no other way at the time. If Anders wanted to prevent innocent casualties he wouldn't have created the kind of bomb he did, one that as well as utterly destroying the Chantry building rained its debris all over the city. And this is as you pointed out at night so that's when everyone is in their homes. The same homes that got crushed by burning debris. Anders cared nothing for civilian casualties, in fact the more the better for his plan. After all his plan also involves everyone in the Kirkwall Circle being killed, making them unwilling martyrs for the cause nobody in the Circle wanted but him. And yes, there were other ways since that's why Anders did his plan, because as he states he removed the opportunity for other ways. Except the Chantry was in the middle of investigating the issue so they could know how best to proceed in dealing with it. If word had gotten to the Divine that things were that bad in Kirkwall you would think she would do more than send Leliana in secret. But she sent Leliana to investigate in the shadows and meet with Hawke. It wasn't urgent enough for the Divine. At the very least Meredith should have been suspended of command temporaily while a real investigation in the open took place. I agree. However I suspect the reason that didn't happen is because this is a game thus Bioware forced things to happen like this so we would have our Act 3. Same reasons why the Reapers n ME3 don't attack the Citadel and take it over: if they did the logical thing we wouldn't have a game. Plus the lead Seekers, the ones who would do that, supported Meredith's actions so for all we know that was tried but blocked
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 3, 2018 18:10:18 GMT
No, I call Anders a terrorist because he is a person who employs terrorism tactics. Terrorism has been a thing for thousands of years, long before gunpowder was invented. I don’t really know how Solas waged his rebellion against the Evanuris so can’t say, but Loghain’s actions also qualify him as a terrorist since he used terrorism tactics in his bid to control the throne. Your terrorist is our freedom fighter. Andraste and Shartan... Your freedom fighter is my war criminal. His death should have been more than a simple stab in the back. That was too good and painless a death for that warmongering terrorist abomination. Also you assume I support those actions when committed by people like Andraste and Shartan? I don't. I don't care what side commits those acts.
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Post by Catilina on May 3, 2018 18:14:00 GMT
Your terrorist is our freedom fighter. Andraste and Shartan... Your freedom fighter is my war criminal. His death should have been more than a simply stab in the back. That was too good and painless a death for that warmongering terrorist abomination. Also you assume I support those actions when committed by people like Andraste and Shartan? I don't. I don't care what side commits those acts. Yes, the slavery much better. Okay, I got it..
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Post by kalreegar on May 3, 2018 18:49:54 GMT
I always side with meredith. She is crazy, but IMO the circles are necessary. The alternative is tevinter. It's simple as that.
Also, my canon hawke is nothing but an ambitious social climber, brave as you want, but still selfish, and templars rule kirkwall. Mages are nothig. So...
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Post by Catilina on May 3, 2018 19:55:18 GMT
I always side with meredith. She is crazy, but IMO the circles are necessary. The alternative is tevinter. It's simple as that. Also, my canon hawke is nothing but an ambitious social climber, brave as you want, but still selfish, and templars rule kirkwall. Mages are nothig. So... Why? The Orlesian Empire's better than Tevinter? Not really. Social climber? It's a good reason. (And good thing, than the Templars betray Viscount Hawke and force him/her to exile...)
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