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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 3, 2018 20:11:45 GMT
Your freedom fighter is my war criminal. His death should have been more than a simply stab in the back. That was too good and painless a death for that warmongering terrorist abomination. Also you assume I support those actions when committed by people like Andraste and Shartan? I don't. I don't care what side commits those acts. Yes, the slavery much better. Okay, I got it.. Not what I said at all. Don’t put words in other people’s mouths.
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Post by Catilina on May 3, 2018 20:17:35 GMT
Yes, the slavery much better. Okay, I got it.. Not what I said at all. Don’t put words in other people’s mouths. You exactly said that with condemn Shartan and Andraste because they fought for the freedom.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 3, 2018 20:23:29 GMT
Not what I said at all. Don’t put words in other people’s mouths. You exactly said that with condemn Shartan and Andraste because they fought for the freedom. No. Condemning the tactics used to fight does not mean you are condemning the reason to fight. I agree that mages need more freedom, siding with them in each game so far, but I do not agree with how certain individuals like Anders act to achieve that.
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Post by Catilina on May 3, 2018 20:48:35 GMT
You exactly said that with condemn Shartan and Andraste because they fought for the freedom. No. Condemning the tactics used to fight does not mean you are condemning the reason to fight. I agree that mages need more freedom, siding with them in each game so far, but I do not agree with how certain individuals like Anders act to achieve that. I got it, you think the freedom is good, only you condemn people who start to fight for it. You condemn Anders, but also Shartan and Andraste. Because they start a revolution. Fighting, not bad, to rebel, bad. But without the freedom fighters, without their spark, the freedom not happen. I already said: the pacifist can shake their head disapprovingly, they can punish (with the law, of course! – so Hawke doesn't have right to execute Anders, by the way, your Hawke's a simple murderer, killed a man, who surrendered) them... AND with their clean hands, the pacifists can enjoy the freedom that these filthy bloody-handed freedom fighters achieved. (By the way: "more freedom" isn't freedom.)
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N3
Vive la révolution mages!
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 532 Likes: 952
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Post by Cantina on May 3, 2018 21:32:43 GMT
No. Condemning the tactics used to fight does not mean you are condemning the reason to fight. I agree that mages need more freedom, siding with them in each game so far, but I do not agree with how certain individuals like Anders act to achieve that. I got it, you think the freedom is good, only you condemn people who start to fight for it. You condemn Anders, but also Shartan and Andraste. Because they start a revolution. Fighting, not bad, to rebel, bad. But without the freedom fighters, without their spark, the freedom not happen. I already said: the pacifist can shake their head disapprovingly, they can punish (with the law, of course! – so Hawke doesn't have right to execute Anders, by the way, your Hawke's a simple murderer, killed a man, who surrendered) them... AND with their clean hands, the pacifists can enjoy the freedom that these filthy bloody-handed freedom fighters achieved. (By the way: "more freedom" isn't freedom.) Basically hon, (no offense), they live in this magical bubble, they believe freedom can be achieved by sitting down and discussing it over a cup tea and some crumpets. "Hey! I am perfectly OK with my Hawke running around beating/killing people to live in a nice fancy mansion in Hightown, but when it comes to fighting for the freedom for others, well, can you pass the honey please?!?"I'm sure, if Andraste and Sharatan asked Tevinter nicely and sent a fruit basket, Tevinter would have gladly set the slaves frees and sent an apology card. You cannot do violence to achieve one goal then turn around and shake your finger at violence for another. IF the violence was unnecessary then I'd be on board to give it a pass. But we are talking about setting people free. You don't achieve that with dinner and a hand-job.
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Post by Catilina on May 3, 2018 21:37:02 GMT
I got it, you think the freedom is good, only you condemn people who start to fight for it. You condemn Anders, but also Shartan and Andraste. Because they start a revolution. Fighting, not bad, to rebel, bad. But without the freedom fighters, without their spark, the freedom not happen. I already said: the pacifist can shake their head disapprovingly, they can punish (with the law, of course! – so Hawke doesn't have right to execute Anders, by the way, your Hawke's a simple murderer, killed a man, who surrendered) them... AND with their clean hands, the pacifists can enjoy the freedom that these filthy bloody-handed freedom fighters achieved. (By the way: "more freedom" isn't freedom.) Basically hon, (no offense), they live in this magical bubble, they believe freedom can be achieved by sitting down and discussing it over a cup tea and some crumpets. "Hey! I am perfectly OK with my Hawke running around beating/killing people to live in a nice fancy mansion in Hightown, but when it comes to fighting for the freedom for others, well, can you pass the honey please?!?"I'm sure, if Andraste and Sharatan asked Tevinter nicely and sent a fruit basket, Tevinter would have gladly set the slaves frees and sent an apology card. You cannot do violence to achieve one goal then turn around and shake your finger at violence for another. IF the violence was unnecessary then I'd be on board to give it a pass. But we are talking about setting people free. You don't achieve that with dinner and a hand-job. "Oh, but The Hanged Man is so filthy!" ...
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N3
Vive la révolution mages!
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 532 Likes: 952
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Post by Cantina on May 3, 2018 22:03:37 GMT
Basically hon, (no offense), they live in this magical bubble, they believe freedom can be achieved by sitting down and discussing it over a cup tea and some crumpets. "Hey! I am perfectly OK with my Hawke running around beating/killing people to live in a nice fancy mansion in Hightown, but when it comes to fighting for the freedom for others, well, can you pass the honey please?!?"I'm sure, if Andraste and Sharatan asked Tevinter nicely and sent a fruit basket, Tevinter would have gladly set the slaves frees and sent an apology card. You cannot do violence to achieve one goal then turn around and shake your finger at violence for another. IF the violence was unnecessary then I'd be on board to give it a pass. But we are talking about setting people free. You don't achieve that with dinner and a hand-job. "Oh, but The Hanged Man is so filthy!" ...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 3, 2018 22:28:16 GMT
Cantina Wow, mocking people for having a different opinion. While discussing something as trivial as a video game, no less. How petty. Catilina Still not what I said and you're still putting words in my mouth. That's a bad habit of yours, one you should stop.
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Post by q5tyhj on May 3, 2018 22:34:20 GMT
No. Condemning the tactics used to fight does not mean you are condemning the reason to fight. I agree that mages need more freedom, siding with them in each game so far, but I do not agree with how certain individuals like Anders act to achieve that. I got it, you think the freedom is good, only you condemn people who start to fight for it. You condemn Anders, but also Shartan and Andraste. Because they start a revolution. Fighting, not bad, to rebel, bad. But without the freedom fighters, without their spark, the freedom not happen. I already said: the pacifist can shake their head disapprovingly, they can punish (with the law, of course! – so Hawke doesn't have right to execute Anders, by the way, your Hawke's a simple murderer, killed a man, who surrendered) them... AND with their clean hands, the pacifists can enjoy the freedom that these filthy bloody-handed freedom fighters achieved. (By the way: "more freedom" isn't freedom.) Oh come on now... Terrorism, the intentional targeting of civilian/non-military targets for political/military/etc purposes (for instance, blowing up a chantry), is not the only way to fight for freedom. And it is, historically, possibly the least effective way to do so: resorting to terrorism usually leads to the downfall, or at least a severe worsening of the position, of the group or cause that engages in it. This is true for a variety of reasons, all of which would apply not only to the real world but also the Dragon Age world (indeed, both Orsino and Hawke make comments to this effect)- resorting to terrorism turns public opinion against you, galvanizes your enemies, and can even cause neutral parties to join the fight against you. Not to mention that its morally reprehensible. So, if anything, Anders is hurting his cause, making freedom for the mages less likely. When your cause is righteous, one of the last things you want to do is throw that away by resorting to grossly unjust and immoral methods- when you do this, you're only hurting yourself and helping your enemies.
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N3
Vive la révolution mages!
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 532 Likes: 952
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Post by Cantina on May 3, 2018 22:55:57 GMT
Cantina Wow, personally insulting people for having a different opinion. While discussing something as trivial as a video game, no less. Um. That was not an insult. It was an observation. I was merely pointing out how contradictory your opinion was. If you find such as an insult well, dunno what to tell you.
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Post by Catilina on May 3, 2018 22:57:47 GMT
I got it, you think the freedom is good, only you condemn people who start to fight for it. You condemn Anders, but also Shartan and Andraste. Because they start a revolution. Fighting, not bad, to rebel, bad. But without the freedom fighters, without their spark, the freedom not happen. I already said: the pacifist can shake their head disapprovingly, they can punish (with the law, of course! – so Hawke doesn't have right to execute Anders, by the way, your Hawke's a simple murderer, killed a man, who surrendered) them... AND with their clean hands, the pacifists can enjoy the freedom that these filthy bloody-handed freedom fighters achieved. (By the way: "more freedom" isn't freedom.) Oh come on now... Terrorism, the intentional targeting of civilian/non-military targets for political/military/etc purposes (for instance, blowing up a chantry), is not the only way to fight for freedom. And it is, historically, possibly the least effective way to do so: resorting to terrorism usually leads to the downfall, or at least a severe worsening of the position, of the group or cause that engages in it. This is true for a variety of reasons, all of which would apply not only to the real world but also the Dragon Age world (indeed, both Orsino and Hawke make comments to this effect)- resorting to terrorism turns public opinion against you, galvanizes your enemies, and can even cause neutral parties to join the fight against you. Not to mention that its morally reprehensible. So, if anything, Anders is hurting his cause, making freedom for the mages less likely. When your cause is righteous, one of the last things you want to do is throw that away by resorting to grossly unjust and immoral methods- when you do this, you're only hurting yourself and helping your enemies. The Chantry isn't civilian and had an army – in fact, the greatest army in Southern-Thedas. The Chantry is the greatest political power in Thedas. Anders attacked this. "We were already doomed!" This is right. The mages' already condemned. Their position couldn't worse. Hawke can agree. "The Circle more harm than good" – and can continue the fight with him, even after Kirkwall. They went from Circle to Circle and helped a lot them to rebel. The rebellion happened. Every mage awakened. This is a good thing.
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Post by q5tyhj on May 3, 2018 23:02:33 GMT
Oh come on now... Terrorism, the intentional targeting of civilian/non-military targets for political/military/etc purposes (for instance, blowing up a chantry), is not the only way to fight for freedom. And it is, historically, possibly the least effective way to do so: resorting to terrorism usually leads to the downfall, or at least a severe worsening of the position, of the group or cause that engages in it. This is true for a variety of reasons, all of which would apply not only to the real world but also the Dragon Age world (indeed, both Orsino and Hawke make comments to this effect)- resorting to terrorism turns public opinion against you, galvanizes your enemies, and can even cause neutral parties to join the fight against you. Not to mention that its morally reprehensible. So, if anything, Anders is hurting his cause, making freedom for the mages less likely. When your cause is righteous, one of the last things you want to do is throw that away by resorting to grossly unjust and immoral methods- when you do this, you're only hurting yourself and helping your enemies. The Chantry isn't civilian and had an army – in fact, the greatest army in Southern-Thedas. The Chantry is the greatest political power in Thedas. Anders attacked this. "We were already doomed!" This is right. The mages' already condemned. Their position couldn't worse. Hawke can agree. "The Circle more harm than good" – and can continue the fight with him, even after Kirkwall. They went from Circle to Circle and helped a lot them to rebel. The rebellion happened. Every mage awakened. This is a good thing. The chantry has an army. Having an army is different from being an army. The chantry itself is a civilian target, a place of worship no less. Blowing it up was an act of terrorism, and therefore, actively harmful to Anders' own cause. And again, terrorism is by no means the only way to fight for freedom (its actually the worst way to fight for freedom).
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Post by Catilina on May 3, 2018 23:25:31 GMT
The Chantry isn't civilian and had an army – in fact, the greatest army in Southern-Thedas. The Chantry is the greatest political power in Thedas. Anders attacked this. "We were already doomed!" This is right. The mages' already condemned. Their position couldn't worse. Hawke can agree. "The Circle more harm than good" – and can continue the fight with him, even after Kirkwall. They went from Circle to Circle and helped a lot them to rebel. The rebellion happened. Every mage awakened. This is a good thing. The chantry has an army. Having an army is different from being an army. The chantry itself is a civilian target, a place of worship no less. Blowing it up was an act of terrorism, and therefore, actively harmful to Anders' own cause. And again, terrorism is by no means the only way to fight for freedom (its actually the worst way to fight for freedom). Not civilian. As i said, the Chantry is the greatest political power in Southern Thedas – Elthina is the greatest political power in Kirkwall. Anders attacked a political target, the owner of the Circles. Worshippers? In evening? Let's see, what we have: 1. Criminal Templars, who hunted for Anders, turned this sacred place into a trap and into the scene of bloody battle. 2. Isabelas' slave traders tried to kill Isabela. 3. Petrice and her mob (Templars and zealots) killed the Viscount's son and turned this already desecrated place into the scene of a bloody battle, to start a bloody war. So? This was the scene of many bloody battles... I'm not wondering, even in broad daylight, the Chantry was always empty. But in evening – the Chantry became the battleground of criminals.
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Post by q5tyhj on May 3, 2018 23:43:38 GMT
The chantry has an army. Having an army is different from being an army. The chantry itself is a civilian target, a place of worship no less. Blowing it up was an act of terrorism, and therefore, actively harmful to Anders' own cause. And again, terrorism is by no means the only way to fight for freedom (its actually the worst way to fight for freedom). Not civilian. As i said, the Chantry is the greatest political power in Southern Thedas – Elthina is the greatest political power in Kirkwall. Anders attacked a political target, the owner of the Circles. Worshippers? In evening? Let's see, what we have: 1. Criminal Templars, who hunted for Anders, turned this sacred place into a trap and into the scene of bloody battle. 2. Isabelas' slave traders tried to kill Isabela. 3. Petrice and her mob (Templars and zealots) killed the Viscount's son and turned this already desecrated place into the scene of a bloody battle, to start a bloody war. So? This was the scene of many bloody battles... I'm not wondering, even in broad daylight, the Chantry was always empty. But in evening – the Chantry became the battleground of criminals. Yes, definitely civilian. Its a place of worship, not a military facility. Wielding great political power doesn't magically transform it into a military target- political power is not what distinguishes civilian from non-civilian, plenty of civilians who wield great political power. Heck, the president of the United States, one of the most powerful political figures in the world, is technically a civilian. So, the chantry is a civilian target, by definition, and attacking it is an act of terrorism, by definition. And while there may have been some "criminal templars" present, there were also probably civilian chantry sisters, and possibly some poor/sick people and/or travelers as well, since caring for the poor/sick and providing hospitality to travelers are among the functions of a chantry. So, clearly an act of terrorism- a morally reprehensible act that actively harms the prospects of Anders'/the mages' success, and undermines the righteousness of their cause.
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Post by q5tyhj on May 4, 2018 0:04:29 GMT
If the DA2 writers had really wanted the final mages vs. templars choice to present a genuine moral dilemma, what they should have done is prevent you from siding with the mages without condoning Anders' attack on the chantry. Because Merideth's plan to purge the Circle for what Anders did is so unambiguously evil, and because you can support the mages without condoning Anders' actions, it ends up being a moral slam-dunk, completely black and white: side with Merideth for the evil choice, side with the Circle (and condemn Anders) for the good choice. If you had to support or at least excuse Anders' act of terrorism in order to support the mages, however, you would have had a genuine moral dilemma, with real moral ambiguity.
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Post by Catilina on May 4, 2018 0:31:10 GMT
Not civilian. As i said, the Chantry is the greatest political power in Southern Thedas – Elthina is the greatest political power in Kirkwall. Anders attacked a political target, the owner of the Circles.
Worshippers? In evening? Let's see, what we have: 1. Criminal Templars, who hunted for Anders, turned this sacred place into a trap and into the scene of bloody battle. 2. Isabelas' slave traders tried to kill Isabela. 3. Petrice and her mob (Templars and zealots) killed the Viscount's son and turned this already desecrated place into the scene of a bloody battle, to start a bloody war.
So? This was the scene of many bloody battles... I'm not wondering, even in broad daylight, the Chantry was always empty. But in evening – the Chantry became the battleground of criminals. Yes, definitely civilian. Its a place of worship, not a military facility. Wielding great political power doesn't magically transform it into a military target- political power is not what distinguishes civilian from non-civilian, plenty of civilians who wield great political power. Heck, the president of the United States, one of the most powerful political figures in the world, is technically a civilian. So, the chantry is a civilian target, by definition, and attacking it is an act of terrorism, by definition. And while there may have been some "criminal templars" present, there were also probably civilian chantry sisters, and possibly some poor/sick people and/or travelers as well, since caring for the poor/sick and providing hospitality to travelers are among the functions of a chantry. So, clearly an act of terrorism- a morally reprehensible act that actively harms the prospects of Anders'/the mages' success, and undermines the righteousness of their cause. This is not our world, keep the distance! So, back to Thedas: Hospitality? That was in Darktown. Anders' clinic for example... And Evelina, the mage beggar (yes, later: abomination) – she was who tried to care about the orphans. she asked for help. The Circle –the Chantry!– refused the help, and started to pursue her – as a criminal. So this is the Chantry in Kirkwall. We saw hospitality and charity in Lothering, Redcliffe – the Chantry was full of people. In Kirkwall? The Chantry was almost empty, always. And as I said: in evening the criminals fought there. The poor people were in Lowtown and the Darktown. Many people say the Chantry doesn't care about them. And again, the mages didn't lose their good reputation, because they didn't have a good reputation. at least if they don't want to be a fashionable accessory – because Vivienne mourned for this status... AND suddenly she, a mage, who whined a lot about they lose their reputation – became a candidate of the Divine election... thanks to the rebellion, to Anders and Fiona.
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Post by q5tyhj on May 4, 2018 0:42:35 GMT
Yes, definitely civilian. Its a place of worship, not a military facility. Wielding great political power doesn't magically transform it into a military target- political power is not what distinguishes civilian from non-civilian, plenty of civilians who wield great political power. Heck, the president of the United States, one of the most powerful political figures in the world, is technically a civilian. So, the chantry is a civilian target, by definition, and attacking it is an act of terrorism, by definition. And while there may have been some "criminal templars" present, there were also probably civilian chantry sisters, and possibly some poor/sick people and/or travelers as well, since caring for the poor/sick and providing hospitality to travelers are among the functions of a chantry. So, clearly an act of terrorism- a morally reprehensible act that actively harms the prospects of Anders'/the mages' success, and undermines the righteousness of their cause. This is not our world, keep the distance! So, back to Thedas: Hospitality? That was in Darktown. Anders' clinic for example... And Evelina, the mage beggar (yes, later: abomination) – she was who tried to care about the orphans. she asked for help. The Circle –the Chantry!– refused the help, and started to pursue her – as a criminal. So this is the Chantry in Kirkwall. We saw hospitality and charity in Lothering, Redcliffe – the Chantry was full of people. In Kirkwall? The Chantry was almost empty, always. And as I said: in evening the criminals fought there. The poor people were in Lowtown and the Darktown. Many people say the Chantry doesn't care about them. And again, the mages didn't lose their good reputation , because they didn't have a good reputation. at least if they don't want to be a fashionable accessory – because Vivienne mourned for this status... AND suddenly she, a mage, who whined a lot about they lose their reputation – became a candidate of the Divine election... thanks for Anders and Fiona. We don't know that there were no poor or sick people at the chantry. The Kirkwall chantry (or the chantry in general) was obviously not doing a very good job fulfilling the original purposes of the chantry, but that doesn't mean that there definitely were no travelers, scholars, or poor or infirm at the chantry the night Anders blew it up. And there were still probably civilian chantry sisters present. And the chantry itself was still a place of worship, a civilian target. So its still an act of terrorism no matter how you slice it, and so therefore both morally wrong and counter-productive to Anders'/the mages' cause. And this is what makes Anders a tragic figure (and a compelling character)- his cause is righteous. And its at least understandable why he was driven to such extreme actions, out of desperation. But understanding why he would do such a thing doesn't make it any less morally inexcusable. And thus the tragic irony that a man possessed by a spirit of justice, standing up for a just and righteous cause, ends up committing an act of gross injustice and betraying the righteousness of his cause.
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Post by Catilina on May 4, 2018 1:48:59 GMT
This is not our world, keep the distance! So, back to Thedas: Hospitality? That was in Darktown. Anders' clinic for example... And Evelina, the mage beggar (yes, later: abomination) – she was who tried to care about the orphans. she asked for help. The Circle –the Chantry!– refused the help, and started to pursue her – as a criminal. So this is the Chantry in Kirkwall. We saw hospitality and charity in Lothering, Redcliffe – the Chantry was full of people. In Kirkwall? The Chantry was almost empty, always. And as I said: in evening the criminals fought there. The poor people were in Lowtown and the Darktown. Many people say the Chantry doesn't care about them. And again, the mages didn't lose their good reputation, because they didn't have a good reputation. at least if they don't want to be a fashionable accessory – because Vivienne mourned for this status... AND suddenly she, a mage, who whined a lot about they lose their reputation – became a candidate of the Divine election... thanks to the rebellion, to Anders and Fiona. We don't know that there were no poor or sick people at the chantry. The Kirkwall chantry (or the chantry in general) was obviously not doing a very good job fulfilling the original purposes of the chantry, but that doesn't mean that there definitely were no travelers, scholars, or poor or infirm at the chantry the night Anders blew it up. And there were still probably civilian chantry sisters present. And the chantry itself was still a place of worship, a civilian target. So its still an act of terrorism no matter how you slice it, and so therefore both morally wrong and counter-productive to Anders'/the mages' cause. And this is what makes Anders a tragic figure (and a compelling character)- his cause is righteous. And its at least understandable, why he was driven to such extreme actions. But understanding why he would do such a thing doesn't make it any less morally inexcusable. And thus the tragic irony that a man possessed by a spirit of justice, standing up for a just and righteous cause, ends up committing an act of gross injustice and betraying the righteousness of his cause. It was the main building. at twilight/evening. I don't think many people were inside, and these were only Chantry members, I suppose the chantry has wing buildings. Sebastian spoke about dozens, who died in the explosion so: 24–96 or (even in the Inquisition, and he has no reason to down the number). Not a little number, but still he killed them, I never denied. But even I can accept. Yes, I see your point about justice and injustice. As even Anders/Justice saw that. But he didn't saw another effective solution (to kill Meredith wouldn't cause a rebellion). And he succeeded. Still, he saw the innocents too. Anders: There is justice in the world. Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people. What about them? Don't they then deserve justice? Anders: Yes. This is why he just sit and wait for the judgement. And this is why I think, while Justice damaged, he has a chance to recover. As Cole. Tragic character? Yes, he is, because while he wanted the rebellion, he never wanted to murder innocents. But he considered it inevitable. It's "easy to support freedom until no one to died to achieve it".
I still can justify him in this cruel world, and support him. And I can't support Meredith and the Circle, because I feel it's just not right. If this is a double standard, call me hypocrite...
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Post by pathogen7 on May 4, 2018 2:15:30 GMT
I always side with meredith. She is crazy, but IMO the circles are necessary. The alternative is tevinter. It's simple as that. Also, my canon hawke is nothing but an ambitious social climber, brave as you want, but still selfish, and templars rule kirkwall. Mages are nothig. So... I think you can have the viewpoint of being pro-Templar, but still siding against Meredith. I personally think the job of a Templar is vital to Thedas, when done properly. It's when they start doing the stuff they did in Kirkwall that they cross the line. That's why I don't like framing the final choice as being pro-Templar vs pro-Mage. I think of it more as pro-Right of Annulment vs anti-Right of Annulment.
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Post by q5tyhj on May 4, 2018 3:25:55 GMT
We don't know that there were no poor or sick people at the chantry. The Kirkwall chantry (or the chantry in general) was obviously not doing a very good job fulfilling the original purposes of the chantry, but that doesn't mean that there definitely were no travelers, scholars, or poor or infirm at the chantry the night Anders blew it up. And there were still probably civilian chantry sisters present. And the chantry itself was still a place of worship, a civilian target. So its still an act of terrorism no matter how you slice it, and so therefore both morally wrong and counter-productive to Anders'/the mages' cause. And this is what makes Anders a tragic figure (and a compelling character)- his cause is righteous. And its at least understandable, why he was driven to such extreme actions. But understanding why he would do such a thing doesn't make it any less morally inexcusable. And thus the tragic irony that a man possessed by a spirit of justice, standing up for a just and righteous cause, ends up committing an act of gross injustice and betraying the righteousness of his cause. It was the main building. at twilight/evening. I don't think many people were inside, and these were only Chantry members, I suppose the chantry has wing buildings. Sebastian spoke about dozens, who died in the explosion so: 24–96 or (even in the Inquisition, and he has no reason to down the number). Not a little number, but still he killed them, I never denied. But even I can accept. Yes, I see your point about justice and injustice. As even Anders/Justice saw that. But he didn't saw another effective solution (to kill Meredith wouldn't cause a rebellion). And he succeeded. Still, he saw the innocents too. Anders: There is justice in the world. Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people. What about them? Don't they then deserve justice? Anders: Yes. This is why he just sit and wait for the judgement. And this is why I think, while Justice damaged, he has a chance to recover. As Cole. Tragic character? Yes, he is, because while he wanted the rebellion, he never wanted to murder innocents. But he considered it inevitable. It's "easy to support freedom until no one to died to achieve it".
I still can justify him in this cruel world, and support him. And I can't support Meredith and the Circle, because I feel it's just not right. If this is a double standard, call me hypocrite... That exchange with Isabela nails it: Anders' pursuit of justice for the mages, leads him to commit an injustice towards the innocents in the chantry. Which is often how things like this work out in real life- if achieving justice was easy, we'd have done it already. But its not easy, its messy as hell. Its sort of heart-breaking really, because I agree with you that Anders didn't WANT innocents to die, he was genuinely a good person who wanted to do good, and was driven, by desperation, to an extreme and unjust act. And so the tragic irony of a man possessed by justice, committing an injustice. And you already know that I agree with you 100% about Merideth and annulling the Circle. I generally think that DAO and DAI overall were better than DA2, but the whole pretzel at the end of Act III with Anders, Bethany, Orsino and Merideth is really interesting, and is a high point for the DA series overall.
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Post by q5tyhj on May 4, 2018 3:34:13 GMT
I always side with meredith. She is crazy, but IMO the circles are necessary. The alternative is tevinter. It's simple as that. Also, my canon hawke is nothing but an ambitious social climber, brave as you want, but still selfish, and templars rule kirkwall. Mages are nothig. So... I think you can have the viewpoint of being pro-Templar, but still siding against Meredith. I personally think the job of a Templar is vital to Thedas, when done properly. It's when they start doing the stuff they did in Kirkwall that they cross the line. That's why I don't like framing the final choice as being pro-Templar vs pro-Mage. I think of it more as pro-Right of Annulment vs anti-Right of Annulment. Good call, that's really what it comes down to. And its not even about the Right of Annulment in general, but being pro- or anti- Right of Annulment in this exact specific case, where Merideth has invoked it based on something a non-Circle mage did, and had not even followed the proper protocol for carrying out the Right (i.e. she had not received formal permission). The entire choice boils down to: assist Merideth in killing off the Circle (including children apprentices) for what Anders did, aye or nay? That's not really templars vs. mages at all. And when you add in all the abuses by the templars under Merideth, it would be perfectly plausible for a templar character (or a pro-templar character) to oppose Merideth, because she is betraying the templar order herself (lets not forget that one of the jobs of the templars is also to protect the mages). This is basically what happens with Cullen anyways.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on May 4, 2018 9:12:13 GMT
I think you can have the viewpoint of being pro-Templar, but still siding against Meredith. I personally think the job of a Templar is vital to Thedas, when done properly. It's when they start doing the stuff they did in Kirkwall that they cross the line. That's why I don't like framing the final choice as being pro-Templar vs pro-Mage. I think of it more as pro-Right of Annulment vs anti-Right of Annulment. Good call, that's really what it comes down to. And its not even about the Right of Annulment in general, but being pro- or anti- Right of Annulment in this exact specific case, where Merideth has invoked it based on something a non-Circle mage did, and had not even followed the proper protocol for carrying out the Right (i.e. she had not received formal permission). The entire choice boils down to: assist Merideth in killing off the Circle (including children apprentices) for what Anders did, aye or nay? That's not really templars vs. mages at all. And when you add in all the abuses by the templars under Merideth, it would be perfectly plausible for a templar character (or a pro-templar character) to oppose Merideth, because she is betraying the templar order herself (lets not forget that one of the jobs of the templars is also to protect the mages). This is basically what happens with Cullen anyways. This pretty much sums up what it boils down to. You can support the Circle in general without supporting Meredith, and in fact supporting the Circle in general is antithetical to supporting Meredith given that she's pretty much thrown out the rule of law. (Unless your pro-templar character actually is a sadistic monster paying lip service to the laws of the Chantry and Circle the way Meredith and the worst of the others are, in which case siding with Meredith in the last major decision is a perfect capstone to your character's career. And of course a character who doesn't support the Circles in general could find some other reason to support Meredith, such as believing that Meredith will actually reward them instead of what actually happens. But I digress.) You can accept the RoA in general, as a precaution when things really do get that bad, without believing that things really had gotten that bad here.
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Post by Catilina on May 4, 2018 9:33:03 GMT
Good call, that's really what it comes down to. And its not even about the Right of Annulment in general, but being pro- or anti- Right of Annulment in this exact specific case, where Merideth has invoked it based on something a non-Circle mage did, and had not even followed the proper protocol for carrying out the Right (i.e. she had not received formal permission). The entire choice boils down to: assist Merideth in killing off the Circle (including children apprentices) for what Anders did, aye or nay? That's not really templars vs. mages at all. And when you add in all the abuses by the templars under Merideth, it would be perfectly plausible for a templar character (or a pro-templar character) to oppose Merideth, because she is betraying the templar order herself (lets not forget that one of the jobs of the templars is also to protect the mages). This is basically what happens with Cullen anyways. This pretty much sums up what it boils down to. You can support the Circle in general without supporting Meredith, and in fact supporting the Circle in general is antithetical to supporting Meredith given that she's pretty much thrown out the rule of law. (Unless your pro-templar character actually is a sadistic monster paying lip service to the laws of the Chantry and Circle the way Meredith and the worst of the others are, in which case siding with Meredith in the last major decision is a perfect capstone to your character's career. And of course a character who doesn't support the Circles in general could find some other reason to support Meredith, such as believing that Meredith will actually reward them instead of what actually happens. But I digress.) You can accept the RoA in general, as a precaution when things really do get that bad, without believing that things really had gotten that bad here. In Kirkwall, Meredith is the Templar Order and the Circle. Hawke can't ignore her. Accepting the Right of Annulment is inherently evil with a character, who not fear the mages/magic – and Hawke grew up with magic/mages. A simple commoner/peasant can lead by some blind fears – Hawke not.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on May 4, 2018 9:51:56 GMT
This pretty much sums up what it boils down to. You can support the Circle in general without supporting Meredith, and in fact supporting the Circle in general is antithetical to supporting Meredith given that she's pretty much thrown out the rule of law. (Unless your pro-templar character actually is a sadistic monster paying lip service to the laws of the Chantry and Circle the way Meredith and the worst of the others are, in which case siding with Meredith in the last major decision is a perfect capstone to your character's career. And of course a character who doesn't support the Circles in general could find some other reason to support Meredith, such as believing that Meredith will actually reward them instead of what actually happens. But I digress.) You can accept the RoA in general, as a precaution when things really do get that bad, without believing that things really had gotten that bad here. In Kirkwall, Meredith is the Templar Order and the Circle. Hawke can't ignore her. You're right, of course, but that doesn't answer what I actually said. What I said is that supporting the Circles in general doesn't mean that you'd support Meredith, and that a character who supports the Circles as they're meant to be probably won't support Meredith. Wasn't that a plot point towards the end of DA2? It would depend on what you mean by "accepting the Right of Annulment." If you mean that accepting the Right of Annulment in this case is evil, then yeah. That's actually exactly what I was trying to say. If you mean the Right of Annulment in general? That's a bit murkier. The magic system in this setting was deliberately designed to create the possibility of things going horribly wrong whenever magic's concerned. It is deliberately designed to create the possibility of a snowballing problem so big that the best solution is to cordon off the area and bombard it with trebuchets and ballistae. That it's also a setting where sometimes authority figures are bastard enough to solve insufficiently large problems that way doesn't erase that first problem.
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Post by Catilina on May 4, 2018 10:04:39 GMT
In Kirkwall, Meredith is the Templar Order and the Circle. Hawke can't ignore her. You're right, of course, but that doesn't answer what I actually said. What I said is that supporting the Circles in general doesn't mean that you'd support Meredith, and that a character who supports the Circles as they're meant to be probably won't support Meredith. Wasn't that a plot point towards the end of DA2?It would depend on what you mean by "accepting the Right of Annulment." If you mean that accepting the Right of Annulment in this case is evil, then yeah. That's actually exactly what I was trying to say. If you mean the Right of Annulment in general? That's a bit murkier. The magic system in this setting was deliberately designed to create the possibility of things going horribly wrong whenever magic's concerned. It is deliberately designed to create the possibility of a snowballing problem so big that the best solution is to cordon off the area and bombard it with trebuchets and ballistae. That it's also a setting where sometimes authority figures are bastard enough to solve insufficiently large problems that way doesn't erase that first problem. The Annulment is evil. In general. It doesn't serve any good – pure evil.
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