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Post by Catilina on Sept 24, 2020 14:44:24 GMT
In Tevinter not the magic is the problem. The mages just as nobility, than the nobles in Orlais. Fiona for example was a slave of an Orlesain noble in her childhood. In her 7, she was used as pet... Celene burned a whole Alienage, and the Divine rewarded her with strengthen her position on the throne: so: she sacrificed the elves for more power – familiar, isn't? Yes, it's very familiar, and it proves my point. Ordinary feudal nobility (with its wealth, military power etc) is (was, in our wolrd too) very difficult to counter, limit, hold accountable for his actions, punish and possibly, if they go too far, overthrow. Difficult, but not impossibile. And even if this kind of nobility is left free to abuse their power, they tended not to represent a danger to the survival of mankind. With Tevinter magician nobility things are different. imagine louis xvi or tsar nicholas ii, and their entire entourage of nobles and vassals, relying not only on economic and military power, but also on paranormal, semi-divine powers, capable of evoking demons, plagiarizing the mind, throwing fireballs over and over, shaping time and space, killing their enemies in their sleep, etc. Good luck to limit them and make them responsible And, of course, there is still the problem of ambitious magical experiments that cyclically bring thedas to the brink of catastrophe. No, the mages must be controlled, with the same safety protocols that we use with nuclear power plants. If the circles do not go well, okay, let's think about something else, but the solution cannot be "let's learn to live together and everyone lives his life as he sees fit". IMO. There are also elements that may suggest the opposite. Dragon Age lore is cool for this reason, there is no definitive sure answer to every question / doubt. But I say it again: Tevinter is, all considered, ok. it's scary as hell, but hey, it works. it's anders' anarchist-libertarian solution that's naive and unworkable. mages are either to be controlled, or they are going to take full power (and that can be somehow like almost... okay?). But I don't think there can be any middle ground, just slight variations of the two scenarios. Taking sides with the Templars means maintaining the status quo. siding with the ,ages (in my opinion I) means implicitly supporting (or accepting) the transformation of the south thedas into a new tevinter. This is also the reason why in my opinion Cassandra is absolutely the worst choice as Divine. It is either Vivienne's restoration, or Leliana's revolution. Anders never wanted anarchy or chaos. He believes education (Anders/Bethany banter, and Anders' short story). That the mages should master their abilities. But not in a prison. Only why he decided the rebellion is: he didn't saw any other solution for freedom. He was right. They should start somewhere, even if this dangerous. Nobody else will let them free, it proved, they should fight for their freedom, and not with "prove they're worthy", this is bullshit – even Wynne saw: her peaceful solution doesn't work (In the end of Asunder, she invaded the White Spire with Shale, and destroyed the Phylactery Chamber). The Seekers/Templars doesn't let it work. So: the open rebellion was the one possibility, even if it brings temporary chaos. Libertarians also believes in the independence, but NOBODY denied the necessity of the education: the College of Enchanters proves it. Siding with mages absolutely NOT to vote the slavery or human sacrifice – this is what people associate to Tevinter as bad... You said: Tevinter is okay... then? Slavery and human sacrifice is not mage thing, I show it before... Also: the Circle was not able to prevent the war: in fact, CAUSED the war. Siding with mages is about to support the change – and declaration of that the past system is wrong. This is absolutely true. That status quo was a wrong one, doesn't deserve to defend... Also: you don't like the possibility to turn back to "Tevinter"... but you said Vivienne as a good option. I don't think so: besides, she locks the mages and keep Templars on tight leash – she especially a chance to bring Tevinter to Southern: A power-hungry Mage Divine, mages-templars as army in her hand... supported by an empire (how else she got the candidacy – she has no connection to the Chantry, only through the Orlesian Court...), and keep the mages together – and encourage them to play the "Game" to earn privileges... (Not to mention: she seems only about her loyalist mages – nothing about anything else: poor people, races... nothing, only mages...) Leliana is my ultimate choice. (While I have Cassandra end, accidentally – it was disappointing, nothing about the reversion of tranquility, even in trespasser. Now, I more and more think about that to restore the Seekers is a good idea, while I usually do it, because they're seems useful, and undoubtedly needs an effective anti-magical force, NOBODY doubts it – but according to me, it shouldn't exist without mages, they should be the equal part of this force.)
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Post by kalreegar on Sept 24, 2020 15:43:08 GMT
Anders never wanted anarchy or chaos. He believes education (Anders/Bethany banter, and Anders' short story). That the mages should master their abilities. But not in a prison. Only why he decided the rebellion is: he didn't saw any other solution for freedom. He was right. They should start somewhere, even if this dangerous. Nobody else will let them free, it proved, they should fight for their freedom, and not with "prove they're worthy", this is bullshit – even Wynne saw: her peaceful solution doesn't work (In the end of Asunder, she invaded the White Spire with Shale, and destroyed the Phylactery Chamber). The Seekers/Templars doesn't let it work. So: the open rebellion was the one possibility, even if it brings temporary chaos. Libertarians also believes in the independence, but NOBODY denied the necessity of the education: the College of Enchanters proves it. Education is ok, but under close supervision and with templars ready to intervene. Tevinter is "sort of ok" because magicians educate themselves and limit themselves collectively. if a magister goes too far or starts doing too strange creepy things, it's the other magisters who take him out (dorian said it, I believe) They also like the status quo, a quite people, a peaceful land (cit) but when mages start to educate themselves and limit themselves on their own, when they draw the line themselves... well, here you go, you've got the tevinter, BINGO. Or you're on the right path to get there in a short time... I would have respected Anders more (morally and intellectually) if he had concluded in this sense. We magicians are sick and tired of being persecuted and abused, we want our legitimate freedom. But we are aware of our immense power, our destructive potential, and of our inevitable weakness and fallaciously as human being. We know that, if we succeed in our rebellion, sooner or later, we will dominate you. Are we, am I ready to take this responsibility? Carry this burden? Yes, we are. I am.OK, let's do this, maybe I would have answered him. Or probably not. but like that? We'll be self-educated, we'll be good people, we're responsible people, everyone will live as they please according to their conscience, the Templars are paranoid, there is no reason to exercise strict forms of third party control over magicians... naaaaaaaaaah. Naive. Also: you don't like the possibility to turn back to "Tevinter"... but you said Vivienne as a good option. I don't think so: besides, she locks the mages and keep Templars on tight leash – she especially a chance to bring Tevinter to Southern: A power-hungry Mage Divine, mages-templars as army in her hand... supported by an empire (how else she got the candidacy – she has no connection to the Chantry, only through the Orlesian Court...), and keep the mages together – and encourage them to play the "Game" to earn privileges... (Not to mention: she seems only about her loyalist mages – nothing about anything else: poor people, races... nothing, only mages...) Leliana is my ultimate choice. A single mage is not a problem (unless he is Solas o Flemeth or something like that). Vivienne can be killed or removed as easily as anyone. Like Anders, Fiona, Merrill... bang bang, you're dead. A few rogue mages are not a problem. A single orlesian nobleman is nothing too, he's just a man with a good armor, a sword and maybe some fighting skill. But when they become a system, a caste, an organisation, a mechanism that feeds itself and supports itself mutually... that's where the problems start. The point of circles is not to prevent every stupid mage from making trouble. It is to prevent mages from forming a coalition.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 24, 2020 16:34:50 GMT
Anders never wanted anarchy or chaos. He believes education (Anders/Bethany banter, and Anders' short story). That the mages should master their abilities. But not in a prison. Only why he decided the rebellion is: he didn't saw any other solution for freedom. He was right. They should start somewhere, even if this dangerous. Nobody else will let them free, it proved, they should fight for their freedom, and not with "prove they're worthy", this is bullshit – even Wynne saw: her peaceful solution doesn't work (In the end of Asunder, she invaded the White Spire with Shale, and destroyed the Phylactery Chamber). The Seekers/Templars doesn't let it work. So: the open rebellion was the one possibility, even if it brings temporary chaos. Libertarians also believes in the independence, but NOBODY denied the necessity of the education: the College of Enchanters proves it. Education is ok, but under close supervision and with templars ready to intervene. Tevinter is "sort of ok" because magicians educate themselves and limit themselves collectively. if a magister goes too far or starts doing too strange creepy things, it's the other magisters who take him out (dorian said it, I believe) They also like the status quo, a quite people, a peaceful land (cit) but when mages start to educate themselves and limit themselves on their own, when they draw the line themselves... well, here you go, you've got the tevinter, BINGO. Or you're on the right path to get there in a short time... I would have respected Anders more (morally and intellectually) if he had concluded in this sense. We magicians are sick and tired of being persecuted and abused, we want our legitimate freedom. But we are aware of our immense power, our destructive potential, and of our inevitable weakness and fallaciously as human being. We know that, if we succeed in our rebellion, sooner or later, we will dominate you. Are we, am I ready to take this responsibility? Carry this burden? Yes, we are. I am.OK, let's do this, maybe I would have answered him. Or probably not. but like that? We'll be self-educated, we'll be good people, we're responsible people, everyone will live as they please according to their conscience, the Templars are paranoid, there is no reason to exercise strict forms of third party control over magicians... naaaaaaaaaah. Naive. Also: you don't like the possibility to turn back to "Tevinter"... but you said Vivienne as a good option. I don't think so: besides, she locks the mages and keep Templars on tight leash – she especially a chance to bring Tevinter to Southern: A power-hungry Mage Divine, mages-templars as army in her hand... supported by an empire (how else she got the candidacy – she has no connection to the Chantry, only through the Orlesian Court...), and keep the mages together – and encourage them to play the "Game" to earn privileges... (Not to mention: she seems only about her loyalist mages – nothing about anything else: poor people, races... nothing, only mages...) Leliana is my ultimate choice. A single mage is not a problem (unless he is Solas o Flemeth or something like that). Vivienne can be killed or removed as easily as anyone. A few rogue mages are not a problem. A single orlesian nobleman is nothing, he's just a man with a good armor, a sword and maybe some fighting skill. But when they become a system, a caste, an organisation, a mechanism that feeds itself and supports itself mutually... that's where the problems start. The point of circles is not to prevent every stupid mage from making trouble. It is to prevent mages from forming a coalition. Anders declared, that the Circle is the BEST in the education. Also: never ever said, the education is unnecessary. Taking this two together: he's all about the organized education. But against the prisons. Just watch, what he says. I don't think the Templars or Seekers should have to supervise the mages. I absolutely oppose this. As I said: an effective anti-magical force is necessary, but with mages and non-mages. This force would be able to handle better the magical accidents, to lead the mage children in the school (not to arrest them in hand-scuff, as happened to Anders as kid, when his magic manifested) and to calm down the parents and the kid as well. Trust and effectiveness. And education centres, not prisons. The College of Enchanters is able to handle it, I'm sure. The Circles can't prevent mages from forming coalition. Also: the mages aren't a party – they're individuals. Not homogenous mass. What the one tries, the other can prevent... Their cultural basis is not Tevinter. And as you said: even in Tevinter they control each other. AND: the main problem is slavery and human sacrifice. We also know, even in Tevinter there were examples of them trying to end slavery, and they are still trying to end corruption. Voluntarily, not because of some external, Templar force, or under pressure. Mages, not Templars. And again: they're minority. You said: the Circle was a "humanitarian" solution, because they before hunted for the mages, and killed them... so: I'm sure, the mages know, it can happen again. The danger is always will exist: this is a magical world. But I saw, that the Circle is rather a danger, than a solution. Anders was shaped by the Circle. Anders is the "production" of the Circle.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 24, 2020 16:35:03 GMT
I suppose if I wanted to meta-game, I'd side with the Mages all the way, since that's what BioWare has pseudo-canoned. But given my experiences, it was very much a "Stop fighting, work together, or we're all gonna die" Which ended up becoming "Oh crap, they're killing each other, now I have to clean up the mess... AGAIN." The Annulment is just a massacre, it not about "work together". If Hawke feels s/he has to clean the city again, then should to start with Meredith, who was the cause of most of the mess in the city. Not because of her big red sword, but from the beginning. If they feel they need to clean the city again, they should start with Anders: the man who killed hundreds, destroyed or damaged a lot of the city, and sparked a chaotic situation that costs the lives of hundreds more.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 24, 2020 16:39:47 GMT
The Annulment is just a massacre, it not about "work together". If Hawke feels s/he has to clean the city again, then should to start with Meredith, who was the cause of most of the mess in the city. Not because of her big red sword, but from the beginning. If they feel they need to clean the city again, they should start with Anders: the man who killed hundreds, destroyed or damaged a lot of the city, and sparked a chaotic situation that costs the lives of hundreds more. Not Anders caused the chaos: the chaos was there. Also: he's not even opposes this – just wait for the verdict. And never forget: Andraste caused a big chaos in Tevinter. Why she didn't try to convince them peacefully – such a shame!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 24, 2020 16:55:32 GMT
If they feel they need to clean the city again, they should start with Anders: the man who killed hundreds, destroyed or damaged a lot of the city, and sparked a chaotic situation that costs the lives of hundreds more. Not Anders caused the chaos: the chaos was there. Also: he's not even opposes this – just wait for the verdict. And never forget: Andraste caused a big chaos in Tevinter. Why she didn't try to convince them peacefully – such a shame! Last I checked, the finale happens because of Anders’s terrorist act. So yes he caused that chaos.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 24, 2020 17:03:01 GMT
Not Anders caused the chaos: the chaos was there. Also: he's not even opposes this – just wait for the verdict. And never forget: Andraste caused a big chaos in Tevinter. Why she didn't try to convince them peacefully – such a shame! Last I checked, the finale happens because of Anders’s terrorist act. So yes he caused that chaos. As Andraste caused the chaos in Tevinter.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 24, 2020 17:05:38 GMT
Last I checked, the finale happens because of Anders’s terrorist act. So yes he caused that chaos. As Andraste caused the chaos in Tevinter. And...? What, because someone used atrocities in the past it is okay to use atrocities in the present?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 24, 2020 17:06:58 GMT
As Andraste caused the chaos in Tevinter. And...? What, because someone used atrocities in the past it is okay to use atrocities in the present? I see, you prefer the slavery over the violent revolution. If you fine about it, your choice – I don't.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 24, 2020 17:09:20 GMT
And...? What, because someone used atrocities in the past it is okay to use atrocities in the present? I see, you prefer the slavery over the violent revolution. If you fine about it, your choice – I don't. No, I prefer innocent people not being murdered, raped, robbed, etc by being caught in the crossfire. Also historically speaking nonviolent revolutions have a far higher success rate than violent ones. Good try at discrediting those who don’t support mass murder though.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 24, 2020 17:12:43 GMT
I see, you prefer the slavery over the violent revolution. If you fine about it, your choice – I don't. No, I prefer innocent people not being murdered, raped, robbed, etc by being caught in the crossfire. Also historically speaking nonviolent revolutions have a far higher success rate than violent ones. Good try at discrediting those who don’t support mass murder though. Oh, yes no murders, rapes kidnaps happened, everything was sunshine and rainbow in Tevinter before Andraste and Shartan, and in Kirkwall before Anders. Sorry. I didn't realize, probably I misunderstood something. Slavery is nice, kidnapping children, imprison innocents and rape them is okay, lobotomy and genocide is okay. Violent rebellion is baaaaaaad. (The non-violent rebellions also cause countless death... but the pacifists can wash their hands.) NO.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 24, 2020 17:16:39 GMT
No, I prefer innocent people not being murdered, raped, robbed, etc by being caught in the crossfire. Also historically speaking nonviolent revolutions have a far higher success rate than violent ones. Good try at discrediting those who don’t support mass murder though. Oh, yes no murders, rapes kidnaps happened, everything was sunshine and rainbow in Tevinter before Andraste and Shartan, and in Kirkwall before Anders. Sorry. I didn't realize, probably I misunderstood something. Slavery is nice, kidnapping children, imprison innocents and rape them is okay, lobotomy and genocide is okay. Violent rebellion is baaaaaaad. NO. So are you trolling or...what? I find it hard to believe you are genuinely incapable of understanding to this extent.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 24, 2020 17:19:39 GMT
Oh, yes no murders, rapes kidnaps happened, everything was sunshine and rainbow in Tevinter before Andraste and Shartan, and in Kirkwall before Anders. Sorry. I didn't realize, probably I misunderstood something. Slavery is nice, kidnapping children, imprison innocents and rape them is okay, lobotomy and genocide is okay. Violent rebellion is baaaaaaad. NO. So are you trolling or...what? I find it hard to believe you are genuinely incapable of understanding to this extent. If you're convinced about I'm a troll, why do you feed a troll then?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 24, 2020 17:21:21 GMT
So are you trolling or...what? I find it hard to believe you are genuinely incapable of understanding to this extent. If you're convinced about I'm a troll, why do you feed a troll then? If you aren’t a troll, then to discuss. If you are a troll, then because it is entertaining. So which are you? Also you never answered my question: do you think it is fine to commit atrocities because others committed atrocities in the past?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 24, 2020 17:26:26 GMT
If you're convinced about I'm a troll, why do you feed a troll then? If you aren’t a troll, then to discuss. If you are a troll, then because it is entertaining. So which are you? Also you never answered my question: do you think it is fine to commit atrocities because others committed atrocities in the past? It always depends on the situation.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 24, 2020 17:27:43 GMT
If you aren’t a troll, then to discuss. If you are a troll, then because it is entertaining. So which are you? Also you never answered my question: do you think it is fine to commit atrocities because others committed atrocities in the past? It always depends on the situation. No, it doesn’t.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 24, 2020 18:01:02 GMT
1) At the risk of showing independent thought... 2) My remaining friends, my home, my brother, and my life are in danger. And, on a more pragmatic note, perhaps siding with Meredith can temper her fury and further reinforce that I have done nothing save it be for the good of Kirkwall and it's people. 1) Why do Meredith supporters always think they are sooo edgy? 2) Well, that was Carver's own choice. I never could get rid of the notion that spite was a least part of his reasoning for him joining the order.
3) Yup, Meredith sees Hawke as threat. If she's wlling to massacre a bunch innocents instead of the perpetrator who just confessed, what could possibly happen to (mage)Hawke? Oh, and she was itching for annulment ever since the start of the act, going as far to go over Elthina's head. Ser Karras is very forthcoming about this. ValRoy, not Elthina.
hmm.. you know, I've always wondered something about the Right of Annulment during Origins Wynne may tell the Warden "if they invoke the Right however, we cannot stand against them" there's dozens of mages at a time in a Circle, maybe even hundreds in one that is bigger...say there's only a third amount of templars present how is it that in regular circumstances one mage could kill dozens of templars without breaking a sweat, but "cannot stand against them" when the Right is invoked? what changes about the Templars that makes them that much more formidable during a RoA? To the interesting paert of this mess of a thread... Which mages can do that except for player/party ones? I was always under the impression that templars outnumber mages in a circle garrison. Templars are said to be resistant to magic and able to "deny" the use of fade/spirit based magic and spell effects, though they cannot prevent magical effects being cast from Blood/Taint, they can still try to dispel the fireball. Templars lore is an atrocious mess though.
But DA2, bah... tons of things in the finale don't make any sense. Why there are mages (except Orsino's group), sometimes single ones, in the city, out at night? Did Meredith left the door open? Also, why does Orsino deign to wait for Meredith to gather her reinforcements for "a big battle"? Why not urging Hawke to put her and her smaller entourage down right their and kick her into the harbour in hope that the next one in the line of command sees reasons and calls the madness off? I personally doubt that Cullen would have stopped it though.
Good question... (Especially that Greagoir sent The Templars who wanted to leave, away.) Yes, many things about the Circles is weird and absolutely not grounded. How they can keep them inside... I'm sure in some Circle live ~1000+ mages. Ferelden has only ONE Circle, The Gallows is also HUGE, probably a "collection point", also a Templar centre. I suppose that depends on the ratio of mages vs. muggles. Ferelden has population of around 1 million. How many mages are at Kinloch Hold? How many mages could realistically be there (give or take transfers to/from other circles) without mages being so common that basically every citizen would be related to at least one mage? @ all: Could you please stop misusing political terms? Anarchy=/=chaos, it merely means absence of hierarchy at the very least.
I'm always amused about all the harping concerning "checks and balances" for mages, while nobody ever seems to talk on how to check and balance the life-or-death power of force of zealots who can invoke "Maker's work!!!" to justify nearly anything. Oh, and there's the thing about Anders' bomb. Any ideas what to do after he tried multiple less-/non-violent approaches which all failed? I haven't heard much more in these endless arguments than "Don't!". Arguing with the Chantry has become somewhat possible, if only marginally, since Justinia happened. Still can' argue with templars/SoTs. Simple idea Anders could have done: fine-tune his magic so it merely hits the Chantry and disintegrates it, killing only Elthina, the few sisters and templars we see in that cutscene instead of creating a shockwave across the city. At this point, you also seem to be mostly here to troll Catilina, it seems.
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N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Sept 24, 2020 18:38:45 GMT
hmm.. you know, I've always wondered something about the Right of Annulment during Origins Wynne may tell the Warden "if they invoke the Right however, we cannot stand against them" there's dozens of mages at a time in a Circle, maybe even hundreds in one that is bigger...say there's only a third amount of templars present how is it that in regular circumstances one mage could kill dozens of templars without breaking a sweat, but "cannot stand against them" when the Right is invoked? what changes about the Templars that makes them that much more formidable during a RoA? To the interesting paert of this mess of a thread... Which mages can do that except for player/party ones? I was always under the impression that templars outnumber mages in a circle garrison. Templars are said to be resistant to magic and able to "deny" the use of fade/spirit based magic and spell effects, though they cannot prevent magical effects being cast from Blood/Taint, they can still try to dispel the fireball. Templars lore is an atrocious mess though.
But DA2, bah... tons of things in the finale don't make any sense. Why there are mages (except Orsino's group), sometimes single ones, in the city, out at night? Did Meredith left the door open? Also, why does Orsino deign to wait for Meredith to gather her reinforcements for "a big battle"? Why not urging Hawke to put her and her smaller entourage down right their and kick her into the harbour in hope that the next one in the line of command sees reasons and calls the madness off? I personally doubt that Cullen would have stopped it though.
As I said, I think it depends on the amount of mages vs. the amount of templars present at each Circle. Kinloch Hold was a somewhat smaller Circle, but the one at the White Spire was one of the largest in southern Thedas. Also in a codex in Inquisition, the Circle in Rivain knew the Right would arrive, with it's First Enchanter writing that she'd fight for her life and that of her people. Mages do fight the templars when a Right is acknowledged (as seen in DA2), but I just wonder if there is an instance of such a Right of Annulement where the templars effectively loose because they're up against too many mages. In theory, if the Warden hadn't gone to Kinloch Hold, eventually they would have gotten their reinforcements from Denerim and destroyed the mages inside, but this doesn't happen because we as player can (and because plot demands have to) interfere.
And despite what everyone keeps harping on Cullen for, at his core he remained a good man who was f*cking frightened of mages after what happened to him in Ferelden. Meredith fed that fear because it was the same fear that ate away at her. So yes, I do think Cullen would've stepped up and call of the Right of Annulment that Meredith invoked, because we know that's what happened canonically. And if Hawke sides with the Templars, and several mages beg for mercy it is Cullen who wonders if they are doing the right thing, which is also a beautiful mirror for the frightened and tortured young man in the Ferelden Circle who wanted every mage killed in cold blood.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 24, 2020 21:17:40 GMT
1) Also in a codex in Inquisition, the Circle in Rivain knew the Right would arrive, with it's First Enchanter writing that she'd fight for her life and that of her people. Mages do fight the templars when a Right is acknowledged (as seen in DA2), but I just wonder if there is an instance of such a Right of Annulement where the templars effectively loose because they're up against too many mages. In theory, if the Warden hadn't gone to Kinloch Hold, eventually they would have gotten their reinforcements from Denerim and destroyed the mages inside, but this doesn't happen because we as player can (and because plot demands have to) interfere.
2) And despite what everyone keeps harping on Cullen for, at his core he remained a good man who was f*cking frightened of mages after what happened to him in Ferelden. Meredith fed that fear because it was the same fear that ate away at her. So yes, I do think Cullen would've stepped up and call of the Right of Annulment that Meredith invoked, because we know that's what happened canonically. And if Hawke sides with the Templars, and several mages beg for mercy it is Cullen who wonders if they are doing the right thing, which is also a beautiful mirror for the frightened and tortured young man in the Ferelden Circle who wanted every mage killed in cold blood. 1) Well, what were these mages supposed to do? Lie down and lets themselves getting killed doesn't sound very attractive, especially as Dairsmiud had no abomination issues or something. I'm also curious about "templars loosing", though I think they would just brought in more troops and zerg-rushed everyone, up to Exalted March or whatever. I'm pretty sure that the Chantry would never admit or propagate anything but "Templars always win™"
2) I don't really encounter much anti-Cullen sentiment in here. Him being subjected to what could be called a Harrowing if he was a mage might explain all the shitty things he says in DA2 (and DAI), but it does not excuse anything. Saying that he would because it happened is a bit confusing to me.
That scene is pretty... odd. Thing is, he directly defies Meredith, but she doesn't react beyond a death glare, even if her subordianates act on his orders? Also, if he disagrees with killing them all regardless, why did not speak up beforehand? That he isn't present when Meredith declares Annulment is a bit of a fuck-up on Bioware in that regard. He is present when the party reaches the Gallows, but doesn't speak up. To be honest, that's a mess.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 24, 2020 22:55:01 GMT
I'm also curious about "templars loosing", though I think they would just brought in more troops and zerg-rushed everyone, up to Exalted March or whatever. I'm pretty sure that the Chantry would never admit or propagate anything but "Templars always win™" Same. They could never allow that. For one thing, that would be a major blow to their political clout. Mundanes would worry that the templars were no longer capable of policing mages, and mages who didn't want the templars there would be emboldened. Every single branch of the Libertarian fraternity would start to wonder if an Annulment of their Circle might fail too, if it came to that. For another: if an Annulment was called for legitimate reasons, and it failed, that would be a huge disaster. Take the potential Annulment in Ferelden: if the demons there had forced their way through the templars, what would have happened? Although as to how the templars would respond to an Annulment that was going badly, I don't think they'd limit themselves to zerg rushes. Back when the templars were backed by the Chantry, and shared in its financial wherewithal and basically unlimited political legitimacy, you'd expect them to be able to obtain siege equipment. I think they'd have just tried to collapse the Circle tower with trebuchets. Hell, it sounds like that's exactly what they did at Dairsmuid.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Sept 25, 2020 10:27:19 GMT
1) Well, what were these mages supposed to do? Lie down and lets themselves getting killed doesn't sound very attractive, especially as Dairsmiud had no abomination issues or something. I'm also curious about "templars loosing", though I think they would just brought in more troops and zerg-rushed everyone, up to Exalted March or whatever. I'm pretty sure that the Chantry would never admit or propagate anything but "Templars always win™"
2) I don't really encounter much anti-Cullen sentiment in here. Him being subjected to what could be called a Harrowing if he was a mage might explain all the shitty things he says in DA2 (and DAI), but it does not excuse anything. Saying that he would because it happened is a bit confusing to me.
That scene is pretty... odd. Thing is, he directly defies Meredith, but she doesn't react beyond a death glare, even if her subordianates act on his orders? Also, if he disagrees with killing them all regardless, why did not speak up beforehand? That he isn't present when Meredith declares Annulment is a bit of a fuck-up on Bioware in that regard. He is present when the party reaches the Gallows, but doesn't speak up. To be honest, that's a mess.
1) that's not what I meant...I applaud them for standing up to them. I suspect you're right though...I doubt the Chantry would ever let out that a Right of Annulment failed, or let it happen in the first place.
2) meh...you should see some posts on tumblr... can we just agree everything in DA2 was a mess? I have more to write but I'm going to refrain from doing that...*sigh* I'm just tired of people defending one character who did bad things only for them to tear down others hm...how was it that the Warden puts it to Alistair about Sten? "we're all killers here" ...I'd say that applies to 99% of the companions we've had...Josephine is the final 1% because (as far as we know) she only ever killed one person in self defense.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 25, 2020 12:47:23 GMT
People would side with Meredith for the reason that Varric gives, they imagine it is defending their way of life. However, the reality is that Meredith had already threatened this. The previous Viscount died in 9:34. It would seem that Meredith prevented the election of a new Viscount. She effectively usurped the secular rule of the city. May be when the Templars previously did this it was justified in order to remove a tyrant from power. However, now Meredith has become the tyrant or more correctly the Chantry has because Elthina has authority over Meredith and she could have ordered her to stand down and allow the nobles to elect a new Viscount.
Three years later, instead of the city being better as a result of religious martial law, it is a whole lot worse. It isn't just Circle mages who are being mistreated now but ordinary non magical citizens who stand up to Meredith. Remember this is not a mage making a grab at power but a Templar, with the full backing of her military order. The only person who seems to have a hope of standing up to her is Hawke, who may or may not be a mage, but even there, if Hawke refuses to co-operate with her, Meredith threatens and blackmails them into towing the line.
This is this reality. Today it is the Circle mages. Tomorrow who knows? You only have to look at Tantervale to see what life is like for ordinary citizens, not just mages, when a city is run by Chantry law. Apparently a street urchin would get a year in a dungeon for something that would get them a pat on the back in Orlais. Remember what happened to Lily in the Ferelden Circle? She was imprisoned for life for having dared to (unknowingly) love a blood mage and thus be apparently placed at risk of possession, so needs to be isolated with no right of reprieve. So Kirkwall is not an aberration but something that could become a permanency if someone doesn't stand up for the rights of all its citizens, with all the restrictions and punishments that would bring. That is what Hawke risks by siding with Meredith.
The Annulment is unjust. The Circle mages didn't plant the bomb, Anders did. The majority of trouble in Kirkwall by mages was caused by those on the outside not within. Even if some mages inside the Circle have been guilty of illegal magic, should all be slaughtered for the sins of just one or two? Protecting them, saving them from judicial murder is actually what will protect the way of life of the people of Kirkwall, not slavishly following Meredith's orders in the hope that you won't become her next target. For evil to flourish only requires good people to do nothing, or in this case support it.
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Post by kalreegar on Sept 25, 2020 14:46:25 GMT
The Circles can't prevent mages from forming coalition. Well, yes, they actually did it, for 800 years in southern/eastern thedas... All the other historical period (plus modern tevinter) are characterized by the tyranny of mages and the natural disasters caused by them. In my opinion, one point is missing in the debate. We are not talking about scientific laws, but historical recurrences, sociological trends. There is no way to prove (or disprove) 100% that if anders' rebellion is successful, things could work. Or that the new possibile "triumvirate" (Leliana Divine - College of Enchanters - pro mages Inquisitor) could not work. Just as there is no way to prove that "the tevinter slippery slope" described by Fenris is not a quietly possible, probable outcome, in the medium-long term. They are both sustainable theses, subject of debate in modern Thedas, supported by various in-lore elements and authoritative opinions from companions/characters. To lean towards one or the other is simply a question of how we evaluate certain elements (psychological, historical, political), the sensitivity of each and the background/objectives of one's hawke. the only thing I can empirically observe is that there are no examples of thedas societies where mages are free, not subject to control and repression, and have not at the same time taken power, and have not started exercising it in a tyrannical and/or very problematic way. Then, again... free to think that this is not a mandatory rule or an inevitable/highly probable outcome. (no science here) I believe that it depends very much on faith in human nature and the degree of optimism
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Post by Catilina on Sept 25, 2020 15:13:46 GMT
The Circles can't prevent mages from forming coalition. Well, yes, they actually did it, for 800 years in southern/eastern thedas... All the other historical period (plus modern tevinter) are characterized by the tyranny of mages and the natural disasters caused by them. In my opinion, one point is missing in the debate. We are not talking about scientific laws, but historical recurrences, sociological trends. There is no way to prove (or disprove) 100% that if anders' rebellion is successful, things could work. Or that the new possibile "triumvirate" (Leliana Divine - College of Enchanters - pro mages Inquisitor) could not work. Just as there is no way to prove that "the tevinter slippery slope" described by Fenris is not a quietly possible, probable outcome, in the medium-long term. They are both sustainable theses, subject of debate in modern Thedas, supported by various in-lore elements and authoritative opinions from companions/characters. To lean towards one or the other is simply a question of how we evaluate certain elements (psychological, historical, political), the sensitivity of each and the background/objectives of one's hawke. the only thing I can empirically observe is that there are no examples of thedas societies where mages are free, not subject to control and repression, and have not at the same time taken power, and have not started exercising it in a tyrannical and/or very problematic way. Then, again... free to think that this is not a mandatory rule or an inevitable/highly probable outcome. (no science here) I believe that it depends very much on faith in human nature and the degree of optimism Yes, we can't prove, what will happen: this is impossible. But there are the Avvar, the Dalish, Rivain (yes there was a Circle to show their benevolence toward the Chantry (and it proved: the chantry was not grateful for it...), Nevarran, who able to handle the magic. Also: as you said as well: in Tevinter as well. The corruption is the problem, not the magic.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 25, 2020 19:31:07 GMT
I'm also curious about "templars loosing", though I think they would just brought in more troops and zerg-rushed everyone, up to Exalted March or whatever. I'm pretty sure that the Chantry would never admit or propagate anything but "Templars always win™" Same. They could never allow that. For one thing, that would be a major blow to their political clout. Mundanes would worry that the templars were no longer capable of policing mages, and mages who didn't want the templars there would be emboldened. Every single branch of the Libertarian fraternity would start to wonder if an Annulment of their Circle might fail too, if it came to that. For another: if an Annulment was called for legitimate reasons, and it failed, that would be a huge disaster. Take the potential Annulment in Ferelden: if the demons there had forced their way through the templars, what would have happened? Although as to how the templars would respond to an Annulment that was going badly, I don't think they'd limit themselves to zerg rushes. Back when the templars were backed by the Chantry, and shared in its financial wherewithal and basically unlimited political legitimacy, you'd expect them to be able to obtain siege equipment. I think they'd have just tried to collapse the Circle tower with trebuchets. Hell, it sounds like that's exactly what they did at Dairsmuid.
In case of Ferelden... well, Darkspawn encounter? I mean, I do agree with your assesment that the Chantry would try to pull "duty" on the local nobles, but in Ferelden, these are busy killing each other, thanks Loghain. 1) that's not what I meant...I applaud them for standing up to them. I suspect you're right though...I doubt the Chantry would ever let out that a Right of Annulment failed, or let it happen in the first place.
2) meh...you should see some posts on tumblr... can we just agree everything in DA2 was a mess? I have more to write but I'm going to refrain from doing that...*sigh* I'm just tired of people defending one character who did bad things only for them to tear down others hm...how was it that the Warden puts it to Alistair about Sten? "we're all killers here" ...I'd say that applies to 99% of the companions we've had...Josephine is the final 1% because (as far as we know) she only ever killed one person in self defense.
1) Sorry for that. I tend to get carried away. I've also mused about a possible argument... Some might argue that Cullen's reaction in that scene is due to the mages not attacking. On the other hand, since Annulment day has been declared, so any mage would expect to be slaughtered without hesitation anyway, so why assume a templar would not attack outright and try to hit 'em first? Especially since... well, circle mages are not really prepared for non-magical combat.
2) Tumblr? I guess that depends entirely on which blogs you read. Though that's probably better off in a PM. Well, Josephine's talents are in other areas. Beware the Ruffled One. Suicide due to ruined reputation is probably regarded as a natural cause of death for orlesian nobles anyway.
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