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#more Asari
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Post by ShadowAngel on Jan 17, 2020 11:58:18 GMT
Who's gonna play this game for the MP? I imagine lots of people if it ends up being any good.
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azarhal
N6
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 7,937 Likes: 21,916
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Post by azarhal on Jan 17, 2020 12:56:18 GMT
A polish dev who knows people at CDProjekt (he doesn't work there) commented on the delay. First on twitter where he seems at a CDPR manager who posted a "delay = good" tweet, because he knows the crunch just got worst for the devs. On a forum, he wrote that the delay was because they failed technical milestones required before the game can even be sent to console certifications.
My guess: they started the console port after having completed the game thinking it could be done before March, but things aren't going smoothly. This is Oblivion and DAI all over again.
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Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Jan 17, 2020 16:02:50 GMT
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 3,382 Likes: 6,964
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Post by saandrig on Jan 17, 2020 16:17:54 GMT
My guess: they started the console port after having completed the game thinking it could be done before March, but things aren't going smoothly. This is Oblivion and DAI all over again. The solution? - Release on PC and let the console gamers wait until it's ported Let them see how it is.
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Post by burningcherry on Jan 17, 2020 18:37:14 GMT
The fan feedback about the delay seems to be overwhelmingly positive, at least on CDPR's FB page. Is it also positive after they said they were gonna crunch employees yet again, and pulled the same "if you don't like it, leave" that gets every other studio in trouble but they always seem to shrug off? Yes, checked now and positive comments still dominate.
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Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
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Post by biggydx on Jan 18, 2020 1:56:31 GMT
Who's gonna play this game for the MP? I imagine lots of people if it ends up being any good. Yeah, if it turns out to be a surprise hit like ME3 MP, I can see people putting a lot of time into it.
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Post by Fredward on Jan 18, 2020 6:00:38 GMT
CDPR's reliance on crunch is going to cost them more in the longterm then they seem to realize. For a company that's been so tentative and careful wrt their media strategy and creating/maintaining hype the fact that they're so blase about their crunch expectations in the face of a culture that's increasingly turning it's back on it (at least on the surface level), they're really saying something about their priorities and it's not flattering.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 18, 2020 6:47:59 GMT
Yes, checked now and positive comments still dominate. It's crazy to me the degree to which they seem to have a double standard applied to them about this. I really don't get how they manage to not have more demand for them to respect their employees with just that very same "this is just how we do business" excuse that they've used for years. Like, can you imagine how much people would yell about it if the folks at EA said that?
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Post by tatann on Jan 18, 2020 8:36:16 GMT
Yes, checked now and positive comments still dominate. It's crazy to me the degree to which they seem to have a double standard applied to them about this. I really don't get how they manage to not have more demand for them to respect their employees with just that very same "this is just how we do business" excuse that they've used for years. Like, can you imagine how much people would yell about it if the folks at EA said that? Thing is, they're honest about it, Bio/EA would just lie, then the truth would be reveal by leaks. That's why Bio/EA would get bashed for the same thing. Also the delay means a longer crunch period, but in a smaller form. Maybe they'll still have all their weekends and a few days vacation instead of working 7 days a week till April and even after release for the patches, while taking flak from the media/players for releasing an unfinished product.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 7,937 Likes: 21,916
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Post by azarhal on Jan 18, 2020 13:15:27 GMT
Yes, checked now and positive comments still dominate. It's crazy to me the degree to which they seem to have a double standard applied to them about this. I really don't get how they manage to not have more demand for them to respect their employees with just that very same "this is just how we do business" excuse that they've used for years. Like, can you imagine how much people would yell about it if the folks at EA said that? From a "fan" perspective there is a double standard. You don't see Rockstar getting trashed for their crazy crunch times (which are apparently the worst in the industry, worst than at CDProjekt, if internet developer hearsay are believed). While, EA got destroyed by the EA spouse "scandal" when they were not even the worst at it when it happened and people still single them out today because of it. But from a company perspective, CDProjekt pays overtime (150% weekday and 200% weekend, it's a Polish law...I'm starting to think none-paid overtime is a US thing only). Considering the salaries in Poland, they would have a lots of volunteers for overtime even if not required. Also, because they pay overtime, I suspect CDProjekt executives aren't as much fan of crunch as some people on the internet believes. There is also a social context to this, most Millennial - especially the younger ones - are very lazy, selfish and can't manage stress. They probably get annoyed every time they get asked to fix something before leaving, but it only got to that point because they haven't done anything in the last 2 days to fix it in the first place. I got a few like that at work, spend their day watching youtubes videos instead of working on their tickets and complains every time the manager ask where those tickets are at...seniors devs have started to complains, some of them aren't surviving the year I bet. Also the delay means a longer crunch period, but in a smaller form. You are so naive to believe that. They didn't delay the game because they wanted to reduce the crunch, they delayed it because it's an unplayable buggy mess. People with contacts at CDProjekt are even doubtful they will hit the September deadline. Note, for the devs it's an August deadline, it takes 2 weeks minimum for the game to pass Sony's certification and be available for download in the digital store.
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Post by Fredward on Jan 18, 2020 15:23:57 GMT
Of course there's a double standard and people aren't even particular subtle about it: CDPR is the gaming public's current darling. They inhabit a softspot that means they can get away with stuff others get gutted for. They're aware of it too, look at the tone of their communications, especially at the start of the Cyberpunk marketing push, it's borderline servile. PR stunts like hiring Keanu Reeves too. It's an unstable position and I don't think banking on it too much is smart because the first big critical, commercial or PR misstep and it'll evaporate. Which is why it's dumb to treat your workers poorly.
Also, paying overtime isn't all that praiseworthy when (according to Glassdoor) their salaries aren't great to begin with.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 7,937 Likes: 21,916
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Post by azarhal on Jan 18, 2020 17:02:24 GMT
Also, paying overtime isn't all that praiseworthy when (according to Glassdoor) their salaries aren't great to begin with. My workplace has a worst rating than CDProjekt on Glassdoor (a full point lower) and salaries are one of the main complains too. Yet my company's salary are based on the (local) market and adjusted periodically (aka augmentations). My workplace is better than all my previous job (more benefits all around) and one of them was unionized too. Either Glassdoor content is overblown, dated or CDProjekt is a dream place to work at compared to my perfectly fine workplace.
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Post by Fredward on Jan 18, 2020 18:50:34 GMT
Also, paying overtime isn't all that praiseworthy when (according to Glassdoor) their salaries aren't great to begin with. My workplace has a worst rating than CDProjekt on Glassdoor (a full point lower) and salaries are one of the main complains too. Yet my company's salary are based on the (local) market and adjusted periodically (aka augmentations). My workplace is better than all my previous job (more benefits all around) and one of them was unionized too. Either Glassdoor content is overblown, dated or CDProjekt is a dream place to work at compared to my perfectly fine workplace. Discontentment doesn't have an objective threshold. You can dispute or disprove the facts the discontentment is based on - for example, the complaints mention that CDPRs salaries aren't competitive even in the local environment, this is either true or false but if it's true you can't say someone is 'wrong' to be unhappy with it (I suppose you could actually say that if you were a particular kind of person, but I think that vein of the conversation veers into the justifiability of moral/value absolutism territory). (Dis)Contentment in a context is at least as much about the values/motivations/aims the individual brings to the table as it is about the context, many of the devs mention the overall experience is positive despite the low salaries being a pretty consistent con and that's fine. It just doesn't subtract from the validity of people saying the low wage is not fine. But that's all adjacent to the fact that it's not great to crunch your devs, justify it by saying it's necessary/!!!IT'S A DREAM JOB!!! + they're getting legally mandated overtime while also simultaneously paying them below the local industry standard. It's opportunistic and exploitative.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 7,937 Likes: 21,916
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by azarhal on Jan 18, 2020 20:06:49 GMT
My workplace has a worst rating than CDProjekt on Glassdoor (a full point lower) and salaries are one of the main complains too. Yet my company's salary are based on the (local) market and adjusted periodically (aka augmentations). My workplace is better than all my previous job (more benefits all around) and one of them was unionized too. Either Glassdoor content is overblown, dated or CDProjekt is a dream place to work at compared to my perfectly fine workplace. Discontentment doesn't have an objective threshold. You can dispute or disprove the facts the discontentment is based on - for example, the complaints mention that CDPRs salaries aren't competitive even in the local environment, this is either true or false but if it's true you can't say someone is 'wrong' to be unhappy with it (I suppose you could actually say that if you were a particular kind of person, but I think that vein of the conversation veers into the justifiability of moral/value absolutism territory). (Dis)Contentment in a context is at least as much about the values/motivations/aims the individual brings to the table as it is about the context, many of the devs mention the overall experience is positive despite the low salaries being a pretty consistent con and that's fine. It just doesn't subtract from the validity of people saying the low wage is not fine. But that's all adjacent to the fact that it's not great to crunch your devs, justify it by saying it's necessary/!!!IT'S A DREAM JOB!!! + they're getting legally mandated overtime while also simultaneously paying them below the local industry standard. It's opportunistic and exploitative. Everyone complains about low salaries all the time, even the CEO that makes 20m/year. When people aren't happy with their salaries or workplace, they look elsewhere for work. That's basic HR stuff: underpay your employees and you get that reputation and people don't want to work for you. If CDProjekt was really paying below the local industry standards with the bad reputation they have (the crunch time came to light first with TW2), they wouldn't have been able to triple in size in 5 years regardless of how much "it's a dream job" it might sound like. If you think discontentment doesn't have an objective threshold maybe you shouldn't have brought up Glassdoor which is just trying to do that. As for the "opportunistic and exploitative". Congratulation, you now understand how Capitalism works.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Jan 18, 2020 20:42:03 GMT
Of course there's a double standard and people aren't even particular subtle about it: CDPR is the gaming public's current darling. They inhabit a softspot that means they can get away with stuff others get gutted for. They're aware of it too, look at the tone of their communications, especially at the start of the Cyberpunk marketing push, it's borderline servile. PR stunts like hiring Keanu Reeves too. It's an unstable position and I don't think banking on it too much is smart because the first big critical, commercial or PR misstep and it'll evaporate. Which is why it's dumb to treat your workers poorly. Also, paying overtime isn't all that praiseworthy when (according to Glassdoor) their salaries aren't great to begin with. That's funny because I've seen plenty of journos flaying them for crunch, sexism etc. for years now. In some ways they're being held to a much higher standard than other companies. The fact is most games require overtime, especially the AAA projects. I don't think there's any way to eliminate it. The best studios can do is reduce it. Also, CDPR has been one of the few devs to address this topic honestly. You'd never hear CEOs from EA or Activision speak as frankly as Marcin Iwinski has about crunch. This youtuber contacted one of the devs on the matter. They said it's not great but not as bad as the final months of TW3 development. Of course that's just one dept. It may be worse in others.
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Jan 18, 2020 21:40:03 GMT
Of course there's a double standard and people aren't even particular subtle about it: CDPR is the gaming public's current darling. They inhabit a softspot that means they can get away with stuff others get gutted for. They're aware of it too, look at the tone of their communications, especially at the start of the Cyberpunk marketing push, it's borderline servile. PR stunts like hiring Keanu Reeves too. It's an unstable position and I don't think banking on it too much is smart because the first big critical, commercial or PR misstep and it'll evaporate. Which is why it's dumb to treat your workers poorly. Also, paying overtime isn't all that praiseworthy when (according to Glassdoor) their salaries aren't great to begin with. That's funny because I've seen plenty of journos flaying them for crunch, sexism etc. for years now. In some ways they're being held to a much higher standard than other companies. The fact is most games require overtime, especially the AAA projects. I don't think there's any way to eliminate it. The best studios can do is reduce it. Also, CDPR has been one of the few devs to address this topic honestly. You'd never hear CEOs from EA or Activision speak as frankly as Marcin Iwinski has about crunch. This youtuber contacted one of the devs on the matter. They said it's not great but not as bad as the final months of TW3 development. Of course that's just one dept. It may be worse in others. Its because they know that they wouldn't get the backlash that the other developers and publishers get. Fans just brush off the negativity that is presented about CDPR anymore. I am pretty sure if they were treated the same as the other publishers out there they wouldn't be so open. There was a lot of open hostility when Jason Schreier talked about crunch there, what I saw was a solid negativity about the article as his article was picked apart. I have never seen that happen to one of his articles before and to me its because the internet loves CDPR for some reason. Right now I see CDPR as the new Bethesda, they are one step away from becoming the new target online if they make one step and all these old actions will have a price to pay. The reason why a company like BioWare never openly talked about crunch is because it was something they did since the very beginning and the internet didn't care at the time that is what they were doing. CDPR is doing it at least a year later and the internet cares about it and they are still doing it anyway so they are telling people they are going to make people work nine additional months of crunch. Edit: Its like what CDPR said at E32019, for it makes it sound to me they pretty much started major aspects of the game over after the E32018 demo.
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Post by Fredward on Jan 19, 2020 7:17:04 GMT
Everyone complains about low salaries all the time, even the CEO that makes 20m/year. When people aren't happy with their salaries or workplace, they look elsewhere for work. That's basic HR stuff: underpay your employees and you get that reputation and people don't want to work for you. If CDProjekt was really paying below the local industry standards with the bad reputation they have (the crunch time came to light first with TW2), they wouldn't have been able to triple in size in 5 years regardless of how much "it's a dream job" it might sound like. If you think discontentment doesn't have an objective threshold maybe you shouldn't have brought up Glassdoor which is just trying to do that. As for the "opportunistic and exploitative". Congratulation, you now understand how Capitalism works. If you don't see the qualitative difference between someone complaining about 20m/year and someone complaining about a locally non-competitive salary while having crunch as a casual fact of life then I don't really know what to say. The mere fact of complaining might be universal, the underlying facts really, really aren't. That isn't what Glassdoor is trying to do, it's collating and splaying people's experiences so that others with potentially differing values/intentions/motivations can decide whether it'd be a place they'd enjoy working. Hence the fact that some reviews are overall still positive despite having the same complaints as the negative ones and Glassdoor doesn't try to police which categories contribute to an 'objectively' bad workplace. I'm curious though, are you suggesting that people are going on Glassdoor and just lying about their experiences? Consistently misinformed? As to not being able to triple in size with a bad reputation... I'm assuming we both know that's disingenuous. Game dev pays pretty consistently less than software development despite requiring a similar skillset in large part because idealistic young people are content with being paid less so that they can work their 'dream jobs.' CDP is also not just CDPR, they're also GOG. They're also a publicly traded company which means growth has to do with the expected stacks of cash Cyberpunk will get and as long as the gaming community is disinclined to hold them accountable for their practices they have every reason to overwork and underpay their devs because it means a thicker slice of the profit for their shareholders. Paradox Interactive has also experienced a period of growth leading up to and extending after going public, despite/in part because of underpaying their workers. They have a profit margin 40%, which is higher than Apple's, which means the money will keep coming in which means they'll continue to grow. Congratulations, you now understand how capitalism works. And "Yes, this is bad but only because the overall system is bad" isn't, hasn't and never will be a good reason to not say something about salient, individual instances of shittiness. That's funny because I've seen plenty of journos flaying them for crunch, sexism etc. for years now. In some ways they're being held to a much higher standard than other companies. The fact is most games require overtime, especially the AAA projects. I don't think there's any way to eliminate it. The best studios can do is reduce it. Also, CDPR has been one of the few devs to address this topic honestly. You'd never hear CEOs from EA or Activision speak as frankly as Marcin Iwinski has about crunch. This youtuber contacted one of the devs on the matter. They said it's not great but not as bad as the final months of TW3 development. Of course that's just one dept. It may be worse in others. The problem isn't with the journos not writing articles on the crunch, it's literally their job to write about relevant stuff like dubious business practices, it's the lack of response from the community those articles are aimed at. Backlash isn't drawing attention to something, it's the response that attention provokes. The reason Iwinski can be so honest is because he's aware of the privileged position CDPR inhabits wrt the gaming community's selective bouts of outrage. Honesty while you unapologetically continue to do the thing you seem to realize is bad is hardly praiseworthy.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Jan 19, 2020 7:28:45 GMT
Everyone complains about low salaries all the time, even the CEO that makes 20m/year. When people aren't happy with their salaries or workplace, they look elsewhere for work. That's basic HR stuff: underpay your employees and you get that reputation and people don't want to work for you. If CDProjekt was really paying below the local industry standards with the bad reputation they have (the crunch time came to light first with TW2), they wouldn't have been able to triple in size in 5 years regardless of how much "it's a dream job" it might sound like. If you think discontentment doesn't have an objective threshold maybe you shouldn't have brought up Glassdoor which is just trying to do that. As for the "opportunistic and exploitative". Congratulation, you now understand how Capitalism works. If you don't see the qualitative difference between someone complaining about 20m/year and someone complaining about a locally non-competitive salary while having crunch as a casual fact of life then I don't really know what to say. The mere fact of complaining might be universal, the underlying facts really, really aren't. That isn't what Glassdoor is trying to do, it's collating and splaying people's experiences so that others with potentially differing values/intentions/motivations can decide whether it'd be a place they'd enjoy working. Hence the fact that some reviews are overall still positive despite having the same complaints as the negative ones and Glassdoor doesn't try to police which categories contribute to an 'objectively' bad workplace. I'm curious though, are you suggesting that people are going on Glassdoor and just lying about their experiences? Consistently misinformed? As to not being able to triple in size with a bad reputation... I'm assuming we both know that's disingenuous. Game dev pays pretty consistently less than software development despite requiring a similar skillset in large part because idealistic young people are content with being paid less so that they can work their 'dream jobs.' CDP is also not just CDPR, they're also GOG. They're also a publicly traded company which means growth has to do with the expected stacks of cash Cyberpunk will get and as long as the gaming community is disinclined to hold them accountable for their practices they have every reason to overwork and underpay their devs because it means a thicker slice of the profit for their shareholders. Paradox Interactive has also experienced a period of growth leading up to and extending after going public, despite/in part because of underpaying their workers. They have a profit margin 40%, which is higher than Apple's, which means the money will keep coming in which means they'll continue to grow. Congratulations, you now understand how capitalism works. And "Yes, this is bad but only because the overall system is bad" isn't, hasn't and never will be a good reason to not say something about salient, individual instances of shittiness. That's funny because I've seen plenty of journos flaying them for crunch, sexism etc. for years now. In some ways they're being held to a much higher standard than other companies. The fact is most games require overtime, especially the AAA projects. I don't think there's any way to eliminate it. The best studios can do is reduce it. Also, CDPR has been one of the few devs to address this topic honestly. You'd never hear CEOs from EA or Activision speak as frankly as Marcin Iwinski has about crunch. This youtuber contacted one of the devs on the matter. They said it's not great but not as bad as the final months of TW3 development. Of course that's just one dept. It may be worse in others. The problem isn't with the journos not writing articles on the crunch, it's literally their job to write about relevant stuff like dubious business practices, it's the lack of response from the community those articles are aimed at. Backlash isn't drawing attention to something, it's the response that attention provokes. The reason Iwinski can be so honest is because he's aware of the privileged position CDPR inhabits wrt the gaming community's selective bouts of outrage. Honesty while you unapologetically continue to do the thing you seem to realize is bad is hardly praiseworthy. Dude 90% of jobs out there require overtime. In any industry. What planet do you live on?
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Post by Fredward on Jan 19, 2020 7:46:00 GMT
Dude 90% of jobs out there require overtime. In any industry. What planet do you live on? One in which I hope most people aren't fine with mandatory 'overtime' lasting months in an area as non-critical as entertainment.
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Post by aglomeracja on Jan 19, 2020 10:14:29 GMT
A quick look at how other gaming companies are rated on Glassdoor tells me that pretty much everywhere is the same. Everyone complains about crunching, mismanagement etc. CDPR is probably paying less than western companies, but I knew one Rockstar developer personally and the pay he got wasn't amazing for American standards either (no idea how it is today).
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azarhal
N6
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 7,937 Likes: 21,916
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Post by azarhal on Jan 19, 2020 14:47:22 GMT
I'm curious though, are you suggesting that people are going on Glassdoor and just lying about their experiences? Consistently misinformed? Lying? No. Misinformed fit slightly, as few people actually check salaries statistics for their area when talking about them (I do) and always compare to the exception or do unrelated comparison (QA comparing itself to programmers for example). But the "salary are low" comment is more often the result of people thinking they are worth more than that. They apply a monetary value to their worth, while salaries are based on cost of living, how easy it is to find someone to do that job (outside QA, most video game jobs are specialized) and competition with other industry/company. Congratulations, you now understand how capitalism works. And "Yes, this is bad but only because the overall system is bad" isn't, hasn't and never will be a good reason to not say something about salient, individual instances of shittiness. I just find the two words very appropriate to describe Capitalism. For the record, I think it's a crap system and as a society we should have moved to something less focused on greed years ago.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 20, 2020 5:01:20 GMT
Hah, something less focused on greed. We’ll all be long dead before that comes true.
Anyway, on CDPR’s delay+crunch, I guess time will tell if that bears meaningful fruit in the final product. Part of me is inclined to believe that maybe there’s issues of either management or resources that are resulting in this. But, since this is CDPR, who have been noted by many scholars to shit rainbows and cure lupus, I guess it’ll be fine.
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Post by apollexander on Jan 20, 2020 5:42:06 GMT
But from a company perspective, CDProjekt pays overtime (150% weekday and 200% weekend, it's a Polish law...I'm starting to think none-paid overtime is a US thing only). Considering the salaries in Poland, they would have a lots of volunteers for overtime even if not required. Also, because they pay overtime, I suspect CDProjekt executives aren't as much fan of crunch as some people on the internet believes. In China the law also demands payment for overtime. However, companies have a thousand ways to avoid paying overtime. I doubt there's any difference in Poland.
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Post by azarhal on Jan 22, 2020 14:44:56 GMT
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Post by tatann on Jan 22, 2020 18:23:07 GMT
Consoles... Ruining video games since 1999
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