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Post by Iddy on May 21, 2017 1:24:56 GMT
It is that fucking blood mage woman at the beginning of Broken Circle. There are a lot of things to consider:
1. You need to decide whether the end justifies the means here.
2. How responsible she is for the chaos considering that she didn't intend it to turn out that way.
3. Deciding if your character believes she is being honest.
4. The pragmatic side of this. If you let her go, there is no guarantee that she won't make things worse and continue to aid her fellow blood mages in their plan.
But let's assume the Warden believes she won't. There still is the matter of her escape (I know she doesn't escape, but I avoid metagaming).
Here is how it could play out.
4.1 She realizes the doors are shut, waits for them to be opened after the whole mess is dealt with and surrenders to the templars.
4.2 She finds a way out without needing to get past the templars, but I doubt it.
4.3 She tries to fight her way out of the tower and Greagor blames the Warden for it, ultimately resulting in the loss of an ally.
Without metagaming, it is a bit of a gamble.
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Post by Prince on May 21, 2017 3:07:52 GMT
Sten and Zevran are worse than that. At least even if you spare the woman she doesn't follow you 24/24 hours (Assuming a day in Thedas is made of 24 hours)so she isn't a costant danger for you unlike those two.Honestly most things in this game are a gamble unless you metagame. -Follow Morrigan blindly to her Mother at the beginning of the game is a gamble. -Go into the hearth of the deeproads to be a bait for the traps of Caridin just to make a crown for a maggot dwarf is a gamble...and so on.
Basically only into a game everything end up being a success no matter what you do.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on May 21, 2017 3:21:34 GMT
Loghain is by far more easy to deal with in the party than all the others kill\spare decisions. Most people don't kill him for that reason,they do that as a form of retribution(as if their wardens didn't committed worse sins against others Lol...)
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 5:50:41 GMT
Well she probably dies anyway while trying to escape so I let get away Btw Loghain is a pretty easy spare/kill choice for me. I ain't gonna let a badass character die
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Post by Abraxas on May 21, 2017 8:49:36 GMT
I guess she just lay low, joins the war effort (if you sided with the mages), and then flees during the cinematic of the last battle, lol
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Post by Catilina on May 21, 2017 9:43:48 GMT
Spare this blood mage woman only depend on character's thinking about the blood magic. If consider that as a tool, then haven't any reason to kill her, because seems she try to keep away herself from Uldred. As Circle Mage for example, because s/he know, that this is the only tool against the Templars. But there are pious Andrastian Circle Mages, who fear from blood magic (as I experienced, these are the minority in the Circles...), so considers this woman very dangerous. As a non-mage pious Andrastian (Cousland, for example) there is less reason to spare her, particularly in this situation. As dalish this depend on wants to kill a woman, who lying on the ground, or not... And that trust in her words, or not. As dwarf, same as dalish. The dwarfs fear from the sky, not really the magic, but perhaps feels some distrust of magic like any unknown thing. And there are the mercy or bloodthirsty: this can work with any origins.
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Post by Iddy on May 21, 2017 13:44:00 GMT
Sten and Zevran are worse than that. At least even if you spare the woman she doesn't follow you 24/24 hours (Assuming a day in Thedas is made of 24 hours)so she isn't a costant danger for you unlike those two.Honestly most things in this game are a gamble unless you metagame. -Follow Morrigan blindly to her Mother at the beginning of the game is a gamble. -Go into the hearth of the deeproads to be a bait for the traps of Caridin just to make a crown for a maggot dwarf is a gamble...and so on. Basically only into a game everything end up being a success no matter what you do. Alright, but what do you think of the situation we're discussing here? Spare this blood mage woman only depend on character's thinking about the blood magic. If consider that as a tool, then haven't any reason to kill her, because seems she try to keep away herself from Uldred. As Circle Mage for example, because s/he know, that this is the only tool against the Templars. But there are pious Andrastian Circle Mages, who fear from blood magic (as I experienced, these are the minority in the Circles...), so considers this woman very dangerous. As a non-mage pious Andrastian (Cousland, for example) there is less reason to spare her, particularly in this situation. As dalish this depend on wants to kill a woman, who lying on the ground, or not... And that trust in her words, or not. As dwarf, same as dalish. The dwarfs fear from the sky, not really the magic, but perhaps feels some distrust of magic like any unknown thing. And there are the mercy or bloodthirsty: this can work with any origins. It isn't all about magic. It is about all the deaths she is responsible for.
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Post by Catilina on May 21, 2017 13:50:07 GMT
Sten and Zevran are worse than that. At least even if you spare the woman she doesn't follow you 24/24 hours (Assuming a day in Thedas is made of 24 hours)so she isn't a costant danger for you unlike those two.Honestly most things in this game are a gamble unless you metagame. -Follow Morrigan blindly to her Mother at the beginning of the game is a gamble. -Go into the hearth of the deeproads to be a bait for the traps of Caridin just to make a crown for a maggot dwarf is a gamble...and so on.
Basically only into a game everything end up being a success no matter what you do. Alright, but what do you think of the situation we're discussing here? Spare this blood mage woman only depend on character's thinking about the blood magic. If consider that as a tool, then haven't any reason to kill her, because seems she try to keep away herself from Uldred. As Circle Mage for example, because s/he know, that this is the only tool against the Templars. But there are pious Andrastian Circle Mages, who fear from blood magic (as I experienced, these are the minority in the Circles...), so considers this woman very dangerous. As a non-mage pious Andrastian (Cousland, for example) there is less reason to spare her, particularly in this situation. As dalish this depend on wants to kill a woman, who lying on the ground, or not... And that trust in her words, or not. As dwarf, same as dalish. The dwarfs fear from the sky, not really the magic, but perhaps feels some distrust of magic like any unknown thing. And there are the mercy or bloodthirsty: this can work with any origins. It isn't all about magic. It is about all the deaths she is responsible for.I think only about that she's dangerous enough for executing her (without verdict) or not. The Warden not an executioner (I always say in Loghain's case too. Exacuting the characters is possible, and not a wrong choice –in every case–, but leave them alive also a good coice.) The Warden's not a judge, to judge her (unknown) previous actions. If do it, then okay, if not, I think, better. And that choice, that she dangerous or not, depend on the Warden's opinion about the (blood) magic, (blood) mages.
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Post by Iddy on May 21, 2017 14:15:23 GMT
Alright, but what do you think of the situation we're discussing here? It isn't all about magic. It is about all the deaths she is responsible for.I think only about that she's dangerous enough for executing her (without verdict) or not. The Warden not an executioner (I always say in Loghain's case too. Exacuting the characters is possible, and not a wrong choice –in every case–, but leave them alive also a good coice.) The Warden's not a judge, to judge her (unknown) previous actions. If do it, then okay, if not, I think, better. And that choice, that she dangerous or not, depend on the Warden's opinion about the (blood) magic, (blood) mages. No, it depends on the countless bloody corpses on the floor.
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Post by Catilina on May 21, 2017 14:25:50 GMT
I think only about that she's dangerous enough for executing her (without verdict) or not. The Warden not an executioner (I always say in Loghain's case too. Exacuting the characters is possible, and not a wrong choice –in every case–, but leave them alive also a good coice.) The Warden's not a judge, to judge her (unknown) previous actions. If do it, then okay, if not, I think, better. And that choice, that she dangerous or not, depend on the Warden's opinion about the (blood) magic, (blood) mages. No, it depends on the countless bloody corpses on the floor. Warden can kill her because of revenge, but this isn't legitimate judgment. And probably that was self-defense. They left Uldred and just wanted to survive. There isn't time to judge exactly what happened. She could lie or speak the truth, the Warden don't know. So: s/he can kill her for simple revenge or because consider her dangerous. Or can spare her, because of mercy, or because s/he considers her harmless at the moment, or because consider her action self-defense.
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Post by Iddy on May 21, 2017 14:53:43 GMT
No, it depends on the countless bloody corpses on the floor. Warden can kill her because of revenge, but this isn't legitimate judgment. And probably that was self-defense. They left Uldred and just wanted to survive. There isn't time to judge exactly what happened. She could lie or speak the truth, the Warden don't know. So: s/he can kill her for simple revenge or because consider her dangerous. Or can spare her, because of mercy, or because s/he considers her harmless at the moment, or because consider her action self-defense. We may hear her telling another blood mage that they should leave Uldred, but then he says they have no choice but proceed with the plan. Whether she was going to agree with him or not, we'll never know.
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Post by Catilina on May 21, 2017 15:00:17 GMT
Warden can kill her because of revenge, but this isn't legitimate judgment. And probably that was self-defense. They left Uldred and just wanted to survive. There isn't time to judge exactly what happened. She could lie or speak the truth, the Warden don't know. So: s/he can kill her for simple revenge or because consider her dangerous. Or can spare her, because of mercy, or because s/he considers her harmless at the moment, or because consider her action self-defense. We may hear her telling another blood mage that they should leave Uldred, but then he says they have no choice but proceed with the plan. Whether she was going to agree with him or not, we'll never know. It's no matter: the Warden only responsible for that s/he kill her. If spare her, the responsibility is her own. Nobody responsible for the sin of the others. if s/he spared her life, s/he gave her a chance, no more. If she later destroys a village or a city, or sacrifice a few virgins, this is her sin, not the Warden's, (Just as not Hawke's responsibility, if Sebastian tries to annex Kirkwall...)
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Post by Abraxas on May 21, 2017 15:23:04 GMT
(I always say in Loghain's case too. Exacuting the characters is possible, and not a wrong choice –in every case–, but leave them alive also a good coice.) The Warden's not a judge, to judge her (unknown) previous actions. If do it, then okay, if not, I think, better. Well, Loghain's case is special, because the nobles in the Landsmeet granted you, at least during the event, the rights of judge, jury and executioner. In other instances I agree with you, though. Now, for this specific topic, in my case it depends of the Warden I'm playing. In my previous game state I killed her without a doubt. My chara wasn't super faithful andrastian to the level of Sebastian, but believed in the Maker, and that was a blighted Blood Mage. But now I'm playing with a mage that, while a good person and very grateful to Irving, doesn't like the Circle system. She also don't see anything bad with blood magic—though don't trust in people who misuse this kind of magic (because Jowan betrayed her). In the end, Neria let her go, because sympathized with her plea.
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Post by Catilina on May 21, 2017 15:49:44 GMT
(I always say in Loghain's case too. Exacuting the characters is possible, and not a wrong choice –in every case–, but leave them alive also a good coice.) The Warden's not a judge, to judge her (unknown) previous actions. If do it, then okay, if not, I think, better. Well, Loghain's case is special, because the nobles in the Landsmeet granted you, at least during the event, the rights of judge, jury and executioner. In other instances I agree with you, though. Now, for this specific topic, in my case it depends of the Warden I'm playing. In my previous game state I killed her without a doubt. My chara wasn't super faithful andrastian to the level of Sebastian, but believed in the Maker, and that was a blighted Blood Mage. But now I'm playing with a mage that, while a good person and very grateful to Irving, doesn't like the Circle system. She also don't see anything bad with blood magic—though don't trust in people who misuse this kind of magic (because Jowan betrayed her). In the end, Neria let her go, because sympathized with her plea. Yes, executing Loghain is not against the law, but the Warden can say, that s/he's not an executioner, and s/he's right about that. (Alistair haven't a problem with executing him...) You're right, that all about the faith, and temperament, personal viewpoints. I mostly let her go, because of mercy. My characters mostly Andrastians but questions the Chantry's standpoints – especially as Warden: the blood magic doesn't counts forbidden, just a tool. (I never consider Jowan as a betrayer, just a foolish boy, who wanted to be free, and tried some forbidden things for his own protection. He's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but not malevolent.)
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Post by Abraxas on May 21, 2017 16:20:16 GMT
Jowan especifically says "I'm no blood mage" to you. He swear it in the name of Andraste and his love for Lily. And then, 5 minutes later, he owns a lot of Templars with a blood magic spell your warden can't even learn if s/he becomes blood mage later in the game. For me, that is betrayal (even in the cases the mage Warden is collaborating with Irving)
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Post by Catilina on May 21, 2017 16:27:55 GMT
Jowan especifically says "I'm no blood mage" to you. He swear it in the name of Andraste and his love for Lily. And then, 5 minutes later, he owns a lot of Templars with a blood magic spell your warden can't even learn if s/he becomes blood mage later in the game. For me, that is betrayal (even in the cases the mage Warden is collaborating with Irving) No, this is literally a lie, not a berayal. Lying to him, and working for Irving is the betrayal (my opinion).
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 16:30:04 GMT
Jowan especifically says "I'm no blood mage" to you. He swear it in the name of Andraste and his love for Lily. And then, 5 minutes later, he owns a lot of Templars with a blood magic spell your warden can't even learn if s/he becomes blood mage later in the game. For me, that is betrayal (even in the cases the mage Warden is collaborating with Irving) No, this is literally a lie, not a berayal. Lying to him, and working for Irving is the betrayal (my opinion). Or working with him to help him escape is betrayal to Irving (perspective)
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Post by Catilina on May 21, 2017 16:37:04 GMT
No, this is literally a lie, not a berayal. Lying to him, and working for Irving is the betrayal (my opinion). Or working with him to help him escape is betrayal to Irving (perspective) I can't call "betrayal" to lying to a prison guard... This is just natural. Working for the freedom in a wrong system is a duty.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 16:39:01 GMT
Or working with him to help him escape is betrayal to Irving (perspective) I can't call "betrayal" to lying to a prison guard... This is just natural. Working for the freedom in a wrong system is a duty. He is also your teacher regardless of your opinion on the Circle. All I'm saying is there are other ways to look at it
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Post by Catilina on May 21, 2017 16:52:35 GMT
I can't call "betrayal" to lying to a prison guard... This is just natural. Working for the freedom in a wrong system is a duty. He is also your teacher regardless of your opinion on the Circle. All I'm saying is there are other ways to look at it Yes, Irving seems a decent man, but still an enemy, until the character in the prison. Later he's not an enemy anymore. Yes, you can see him this way, with some Stockholm-syndrome. Sadly, this is so common in the Circle. Those who are being kidnapped too young or as an orphan (Wynne), so easily can feel the Circle as home, and the First Enchanter as mother/father. But who later taken to the Circle, probably never will be able to accept this fate (Fiona, Anders).
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Post by Abraxas on May 21, 2017 17:01:44 GMT
Irving maybe the jailor, but Jowan was a criminal (as all the charges against him were true).
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 17:08:04 GMT
He is also your teacher regardless of your opinion on the Circle. All I'm saying is there are other ways to look at it Yes, Irving seems a decent man, but still an enemy, until the character in the prison. Later he's not an enemy anymore. Yes, you can see him this way, with some Stockholm-syndrome. Sadly, this is so common in the Circle. Those who are being kidnapped too young or as an orphan (Wynne), so easily can feel the Circle as home, and the First Enchanter as mother/father. But who later taken to the Circle, probably never will be able to accept this fate (Fiona, Anders). I'm trying to have this discussion objectively, you're making this really hard. Seeing the dangers of being a mage isn't stockholm syndrome it's a point of view
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Post by Catilina on May 21, 2017 17:08:36 GMT
Irving maybe the jailor, but Jowan was a criminal (as all the charges against him were true). First Jowan was a prisoner, later he committed this "crime". So: as an innocent prisoner (from childhood), he still has a free card commit a crime... You can't call criminal an unjustly imprisoned man, even if he forced committing a violation for his freedom. The crime happened, when he closed, not when he tried to be free.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 17:08:40 GMT
Irving maybe the jailor, but Jowan was a criminal (as all the charges against him were true). Don't forget that he sounds like a spoiled child, that's the worst part
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Post by Catilina on May 21, 2017 17:20:05 GMT
Yes, Irving seems a decent man, but still an enemy, until the character in the prison. Later he's not an enemy anymore. Yes, you can see him this way, with some Stockholm-syndrome. Sadly, this is so common in the Circle. Those who are being kidnapped too young or as an orphan (Wynne), so easily can feel the Circle as home, and the First Enchanter as mother/father. But who later taken to the Circle, probably never will be able to accept this fate (Fiona, Anders). I'm trying to have this discussion objectively, you're making this really hard. Seeing the dangers of being a mage isn't stockholm syndrome it's a point of view Only what I saw in the Calenhad Tower, that miserable girl in the Circle Chantry, who prayed for forgiveness, because she felt guilty and cursed. And Jowan's fear from the tranquility, and Owen... THIS is the sin, what the Chantry committed against them. Yes, magic is dangerous, but to imprison innocents and make them a zombie, if they fear, is never a solution. I was quite objective.
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