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Post by Catilina on May 29, 2017 1:28:34 GMT
The life's dangerous. Killing everyone who can caused danger is just foolish aspiration (not mentioned, how cruel), especially in DA, where almost everyone can be dangerous... And don't need to undertaken the responsibility for every people's possible crimes and lies. Summa summarum: to kill this woman is reasonable and good decision, leave her alive a merciful decision, and according my opinion, also good, and neither is evil or morally questionable. That's only your opinion of course not a truth. Facts tells me that this woman is a criminal who supported Uldred and that didn't thought twice before to attack me as well (without any reason whatsoever,since they jump immediatly at the fight) . She is a proved criminal so letting her go just like that it isn't an option. Life is less dangerous if I kill these enemies or put them in jail. Of course, you know well, what is The Only True Way, I no doubt about it.
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Post by Prince on May 29, 2017 1:43:31 GMT
In DA yes, most of the times there isn't an imprison option only the kill option to finish off the threats.This mage was part of the conspiracy of blood mages of Uldred so she is a threat,and since there is no imprison option,the kill option is the one that works better for all those who don't want to take any risk because of her who was an enemy up until that moment.If the writers of these games will have provided more imprisonment options(I wanted that especially for Alistair at Landsmeet) I would have taken those,but this mage in any case isn't allowed with me to walk free like that after all the issues that she caused. The life's dangerous. Killing everyone who can caused danger is just foolish aspiration (not mentioned, how cruel), especially in DA, where almost everyone can be dangerous... And don't need to undertaken the responsibility for every people's possible crimes and lies. Summa summarum: to kill this woman is reasonable and good decision, leave her alive a merciful decision, and according my opinion, also good, and neither is evil or morally questionable. I can clearly see your bias for mages there.The woman has been proven guilty and on top of it she also wanted to kill the PC for no reason (she didn't attempted at any dialogue before she was defeated),plus she says that you just have to let her go without any kind of supervision....(Yea of course) that's reckless,it isn't in any way near in comparision to Loghain(which can be taken in custody) ,this isn't mercy this is just as reckless as you can get. Now you can complain all you want about the concept of killing potential threats that proved to be dangerous,but that doesn't change the fact that this practice is able to eliminates the problem from it's roots,and that was often time used in reality to prevent dangerous outcomes. I've killed or attempted to kill many potential threats in DA(The false Andraste,plenty of demons,the Architect, Branka,Anders,Solas,Morrigan,Old God,ecc..) and I think I got it right ,the world is definetly a safer place without them.
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Post by Catilina on May 29, 2017 1:58:51 GMT
The life's dangerous. Killing everyone who can caused danger is just foolish aspiration (not mentioned, how cruel), especially in DA, where almost everyone can be dangerous... And don't need to undertaken the responsibility for every people's possible crimes and lies. Summa summarum: to kill this woman is reasonable and good decision, leave her alive a merciful decision, and according my opinion, also good, and neither is evil or morally questionable. I can clearly see your bias for mages there.The woman has been proven guilty and on top of it she also wanted to kill the PC for no reason (she didn't attempted at any dialogue before she was defeated),plus she says that you just have to let her go without any kind of supervision....(Yea of course) that's reckless,it isn't in any way near in comparision to Loghain(which can be taken in custody) ,this isn't mercy this is just as reckless as you can get. Now you can complain all you want about the concept of killing potential threats that proved to be dangerous,but that doesn't change the fact that this practice is able to eliminates the problem from it's roots,and that was often time used in reality to prevent dangerous outcomes. I've killed or attempted to kill many potential threats in DA(The false Andraste,plenty of demons,the Architect, Branka,Anders,Solas,Morrigan,Old God,ecc..) and I think I got it right ,the world is definetly a safer place without them. Probably you would kill the real Andraste too. She was a dangerous rebel. And a mage.
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Post by secretrare on May 29, 2017 1:59:00 GMT
That's only your opinion of course not a truth. Facts tells me that this woman is a criminal who supported Uldred and that didn't thought twice before to attack me as well (without any reason whatsoever,since they jump immediatly at the fight) . She is a proved criminal so letting her go just like that it isn't an option. Life is less dangerous if I kill these enemies or put them in jail. Of course, you know well, what is The Only True Way, I no doubt about it. You can spare her if you want,come to think of it you can spare all the characters/beings you want and set them in absolute freedoom regardless of their crimes and regardless of how world threatening they are,just don't complain if it backfires along the road later. The most important aspect of it all,is that there can't be any law of Justice so long as some people over others are allowed to have a free pass from their crimes. So yes kill Loghain for his Crimes but spare this woman for her owns because that's how "Biased Justice" works.
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Post by Catilina on May 29, 2017 2:04:25 GMT
Of course, you know well, what is The Only True Way, I no doubt about it. You can spare her if you want,come to think of it you can spare all the characters/beings you want and set them in absolute freedoom regardless of their crimes and regardless of how world threatening they are,just don't complain if it backfires along the road later. The most important aspect of it all,is that there can't be any law of Justice so long as some people over others are allowed to have a free pass from their crimes. So yes kill Loghain for his Crimes but spare this woman for her owns because that's how "Biased Justice" works. 1. Loghain's crime was bigger. 2. I think, spare Loghain is a good decision too. And executing Loghain also good. No one of them is morally wrong. You think, I saved this woman, because she's a mage, I say, I spared this woman, because she is a person.
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Post by Prince on May 29, 2017 2:12:36 GMT
Probably you would kill the real Andraste too. She was a dangerous rebel. And a mage. I don't get why you are saying she was mage?Lol we don't even know for sure if she even existed as the tales says. If I was a member of the old Empire or a Magister of Tevinter, yes I would have killed her since she was a decalred enemy of "my" nation. Not sure what you wanted to imply with that?You wanted to say that Andraste was the supreme good and her death would have been evil? Lol she isn't Jesus she was also a mass murderer,not to mention that if Tevinter wouldn't have killed her, she would have killed them so I don't think they had any choice,unless you think they should have all died for her.
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Post by Catilina on May 29, 2017 2:18:42 GMT
Probably you would kill the real Andraste too. She was a dangerous rebel. And a mage. I don't get why you are saying she was mage?Lol we don't even know for dure if he even existed as the talea says. If I was a member of the old Empire or a Magister of Tevinter, yes I would have killed her since she was a decalred enemy of "my" nation. Not sure what you wanted to imply with that?You wanted to say that Andraste was the supreme good and her death would have been evil? Lol she isn't Jesus she was also a mass murderer,not to mention that if Tevinter wouldn't have killed her, she would have killed them so I don't think they had any choice,unless you think they should have all died for her. Yes, I said, you would kill Andraste too. Every rebellion is a sin because it threatens human life. Every revolutionary is dangerous (potential) mass murderer. The existing order and law are always right. Thank you, master, you enlightened me.
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Post by secretrare on May 29, 2017 2:29:19 GMT
You can spare her if you want,come to think of it you can spare all the characters/beings you want and set them in absolute freedoom regardless of their crimes and regardless of how world threatening they are,just don't complain if it backfires along the road later. The most important aspect of it all,is that there can't be any law of Justice so long as some people over others are allowed to have a free pass from their crimes. So yes kill Loghain for his Crimes but spare this woman for her owns because that's how "Biased Justice" works. 1. Loghain's crime was bigger. 2. I think, spare Loghain is a good decision too. And executing Loghain also good. No one of them is morally wrong. You think, I saved this woman, because she's a mage, I say, I spared this woman, because she is a person. Exactly what I meant,the "Theory of Justice" built upon the Cult of Grey. It is true that the Cult of Grey has become preponderant nowadays(especially on the Internet) where peoples loves to relativize the whole life,Justice however (just like many portions of reality)doesn't work that way,it has precise norms and rules which are being established beforehand. You can't say that X deserve death because he killed someone but Y does not deserve death if it has committed the same crime for the reason that it wasn't into an official position of power like X. Relativism has nothing to do with the concept of Justice.
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Post by Prince on May 29, 2017 2:44:16 GMT
Yes, I said, you would kill Andraste too. Every rebellion is a sin because it threatens human life. Every revolutionary is dangerous (potential) mass murderer. The existing order and law are always right. Thank you, master, you enlightened me. Your post proves that you didn't understood what I've said, and now you are gonna make it sound as if I said that "Any existing order of any given time"is the right one Lol. In the first place any society built by human beings is deemed to be flawed(Lol ours modern society is probably worse than Old Tevinter ,almost 75% of the rest of the world lives in misery because of our comfort)the point is that there isn't any Rebellion that ever made the world into a better place. As I've said if I would have been the object of Andraste's rebellion(meaning if she wanted to kill me because I was part of the old system)I would have killed her,else if I was the slave I wouldn't have been the object of her rebellion thus she would have been no threat for me.
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Post by Catilina on May 29, 2017 2:44:45 GMT
1. Loghain's crime was bigger. 2. I think, spare Loghain is a good decision too. And executing Loghain also good. No one of them is morally wrong. You think, I saved this woman, because she's a mage, I say, I spared this woman, because she is a person. Exactly what I meant,the "Theory of Justice" built upon the Cult of Grey. It is true that the Cult of Grey has become preponderending nowadays(especially on the Internet) where peoples loves to relativize the whole life,Justice however (just like many portions of reality)doesn't work that way,it has precise norms and rules which are being established beforehand. You can't say that X deserve death because he killed someone but Y does not deserve death if it has committed the same crime for the reason that it wasn't into an official position of power like X. Relativism has nothing to do with the concept of Justice. "Cult of Grey"? WTF is this? I'm so black-and-white person, I suppose. To make the difference between the serious and not so serious crimes in the courts is a quite old invention, not created by some silly internet groups. The murderers and their crimes aren't same.
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Post by secretrare on May 29, 2017 2:56:25 GMT
Exactly what I meant,the "Theory of Justice" built upon the Cult of Grey. It is true that the Cult of Grey has become preponderending nowadays(especially on the Internet) where peoples loves to relativize the whole life,Justice however (just like many portions of reality)doesn't work that way,it has precise norms and rules which are being established beforehand. You can't say that X deserve death because he killed someone but Y does not deserve death if it has committed the same crime for the reason that it wasn't into an official position of power like X. Relativism has nothing to do with the concept of Justice. "Cult of Grey"? WTF is this? I'm so black-and-white person, I suppose. To make the difference between the serious and not so serious crimes in the courts is a quite old invention, not created by some silly internet groups. The murderers and their crimes aren't same. Is the cult based on relativize reality based on what you feel rather than what it is. In the case I was discussing this woman is guilty of attempt at murdering ,murdering,conspiracy and who knows what else,so to say her crimes are not serious is just to say something that it isn't true. Letting her go whilist kill Loghain is a form of biased Justice,because it is a Justice made of what you feel rather than what it is.
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Post by Catilina on May 29, 2017 3:06:14 GMT
Yes, I said, you would kill Andraste too. Every rebellion is a sin because it threatens human life. Every revolutionary is dangerous (potential) mass murderer. The existing order and law are always right. Thank you, master, you enlightened me. Your post proves that you didn't understood what I've said, and now you are gonna make it sound as if I said that "Any existing order of any given time"is the right one Lol. In the first place any society built by human beings is deemed to be flawed(Lol ours modern society is probably worse than Old Tevinter ,almost 75% of the rest of the world lives in misery because of our comfort)the point is that there isn't any Rebellion that ever made the world into a better place. As I've said if I would have been the object of Andraste's rebellion(meaning if she wanted to kill me because I was part of the old system)I would have killed her,else if I was the slave I wouldn't have been the object of her rebellion thus she would have been no threat for me. Yes, misunderstanding. You spoke about the false Andraste, I tried to be sarcastic with true Andraste (but who know, that this dragon wasn't really Andraste... we don't know, who is Andraste). Our modern world not perfect. The people who create the laws aren't perfect. There are best and worse periods. Of course, if Andraste appears in Tevinter as an enemy, and I play as a Magister, probably I would kill her, or, if I have a chance, then imprisoned her (I'm not a big fan of the death sentence, if we have another option). But if I'm not a supporter of slavery, then I'm not sure, I wouldn't support Andraste. So: this depend on the aspect again. What if I think, that Andraste's appear to bring some good thing to my country?
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Post by Catilina on May 29, 2017 3:12:00 GMT
"Cult of Grey"? WTF is this? I'm so black-and-white person, I suppose. To make the difference between the serious and not so serious crimes in the courts is a quite old invention, not created by some silly internet groups. The murderers and their crimes aren't same. Is the cult based on relativize reality based on what you feel rather than what it is. In the case I was discussing this woman is guilty of attempt at murdering ,murdering,conspiracy and who knows what else,so to say her crimes are not serious is just to say something that it isn't true. Letting her go whilist kill Loghain is a form of biased Justice,because it is a Justice made of what you feel rather than what it is. No. This woman killed one-two people, and hid with the others, seems left Uldred, and only defended themselves. Loghain abused his political power, jeopardized and sold his own people. Loghain's crime, as a politician was much bigger, than this woman's crime. She was fool, and she took part in a rebellion, what was indirectly caused by Loghain... (Loghain was the head of the conspiracy.) The Circle was a jail of innocents. If this prisoners rebel, that I can't call crime. Uldred crime was, that finally he wanted more power, and let a demon possess him. He was fool. I'm –as already wrote– a black-and-white person. The oppression is black. The rebellion against this is white. And Uldred? Just a dangerous fool.
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Post by secretrare on May 29, 2017 3:42:33 GMT
No. This woman killed one-two people, and hid with the others, seems left Uldred, and only defended themselves. Loghain abused his political power, jeopardized and sold his own people. Loghain's crime, as a politician was much bigger, than this woman's crime. She was fool, and she took part in a rebellion, what was indirectly caused by Loghain... (Loghain was the head of the conspiracy.) The Circle was a jail of innocents. If this prisoners rebel, that I can't call crime. Uldred crime was, that finally he wanted more power, and let a demon possess him. He was fool. I'm –as already wrote– a black-and-white person. The oppression is black. The rebellion against this is white. And Uldred? Just a dangerous fool. I was not debating about which was the more fitting system to describe reality(Realitivism or a Binary system)I was simply stating that true Justice shouldn't be a matter of opinion or else it wouldn't be Justice at all. If there is the highest price to pay for the crime of murdering then that should be always applied without any kind of distinction. It doesn't matter if the woman killed less than Loghain,the only thing that matters is that she killed,so she gains the appropriate punishment from Justice for murderer just like Loghain does,and if that punishment is death then she should be killed like Loghain.Regardless of how many Crimes you want to put on Loghain death is not cumulative so he can't be killed multiple times. And if instead of death you want the jail option,Loghain would be given cumulative years of imprisonment(which would be jail for life)just as the woman,in any case neither of them would live long enough to be free once again. But to say that the woman should walk free whilist Loghain should die is not B&W thinking,this is just favoritism towards this person.
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Post by Catilina on May 29, 2017 3:59:12 GMT
No. This woman killed one-two people, and hid with the others, seems left Uldred, and only defended themselves. Loghain abused his political power, jeopardized and sold his own people. Loghain's crime, as a politician was much bigger, than this woman's crime. She was fool, and she took part in a rebellion, what was indirectly caused by Loghain... (Loghain was the head of the conspiracy.) The Circle was a jail of innocents. If this prisoners rebel, that I can't call crime. Uldred crime was, that finally he wanted more power, and let a demon possess him. He was fool. I'm –as already wrote– a black-and-white person. The oppression is black. The rebellion against this is white. And Uldred? Just a dangerous fool. I was not debating about which was the more fitting system to describe reality(Realitivism or a Binary system)I was simply stating that true Justice shouldn't be a matter of opinion or else it wouldn't be Justice at all. If there is the highest price to pay for the crime of murdering then that should be always applied without any kind of distinction. It doesn't matter if the woman killed less than Loghain,the only thing that matters is that she killed,so she gains the appropriate punishment from Justice for murderer just like Loghain does,and if that punishment is death then she should be killed like Loghain.Regardless of how many Crimes you want to put on Loghain death is not cumulative so he can't be killed multiple times. And if instead of death you want the jail option,Loghain would be given cumulative years of imprisonment(which would be jail for life)just as the woman,in any case neither of them would live long enough to be free once again. But to say that the woman should walk free whilist Loghain should die is not B&W thinking,this is just favoritism towards this person. Not mentioned, that the Warden isn't a judge. So: the Warden can make an emotional decision. So: you think, that murderers are same. Who accidentally killed someone while fighting in a tavern, and a serial killer, who tortured, raped and killed his victims are all the same? And the same punishment for them. Okay, I understood. What I can say?
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on May 29, 2017 4:00:10 GMT
@rare I agree. -If players thinks that the price to pay by Loghain is death because he killed people,(directly and indirectly)then the same Justice they should apply to this mage. And also to their Wardens as well since they are the greatest mass murderes in DAO.
-If they thinks that they both don't deserve death but imprisonment than so be it,it should be no less than 20 years for murdering,so both Loghain and the woman would be in Jail until death.
-If they think they both don't deserve any punishment then they should never punish crimes(which is just insane as it will bring society to the state of nature)
all 3 cases are choerent,everything else would not be objective Justice because wouldn't be able to use the same measures for punishments and crimes.
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Post by Catilina on May 29, 2017 4:02:24 GMT
@rare I agree. -If players thinks that the price to pay by Loghain is death because he killed people,(directly and indirectly)then the same Justice they should apply to this mage. And also to their Wardens as well since they are the greatest mass murderes in DAO. -If they thinks that they both don't deserve death but imprisonment than so be it,it should be no less than 20 years for murdering,so both Loghain and the woman would be in Jail until death. -If they think they both don't deserve any punishment then they should never punish crimes(which is just insane as it will bring society to the state of nature) In 3 cases are choerent,everything else would be objective Justice because wouldn't be able to use the same measures for punishments and crimes. So: you also think, that murderers are same. Who accidentally killed someone while fighting in a tavern, and a serial killer, who tortured, raped and killed his victims are all the same? And the same punishment for them. Okay, I understood. What can I say? (Again.)
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on May 29, 2017 4:07:52 GMT
So: you think, that murderers are same. Who accidentally killed someone while fighting in a tavern, and a serial killer, who tortured, raped and killed his victims are all the same? Okay, I understood. What I can say? There is no such thing as killing for accident someone whilist being engaged in a fight with this person on purpose,that is murder(at least both in EU and US),if you meant manslaughter(which means kill by accident without premeditation)that is still a severe crime and it is definetly not the case for almost all DA characters that killed someone. Definetly not the case for this mage,since she didn't killed by accident.I want you to tell me one single DA character that killed for accident because I don't remember a single one.
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Post by Catilina on May 29, 2017 4:13:14 GMT
There is no such thing as killing for accident someone whilist being engaged in a fight with this person,that is murder(at least both in EU and US),if you meant manslaughter(which means kill by accident without premeditation)that is still a severe crime and it is definetly not the case for almost all DA characters that killed someone. You know, that this is bullshit? A big one. (Both are serious crimes, but there is a difference. Also in court judgments.)
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on May 29, 2017 4:18:21 GMT
There is no such thing as killing for accident someone whilist being engaged in a fight with this person,that is murder(at least both in EU and US),if you meant manslaughter(which means kill by accident without premeditation)that is still a severe crime and it is definetly not the case for almost all DA characters that killed someone. You know, that this is bullshit? A big one. (Both are serious crimes, but there is a difference. Also in court judgments.) You know that you are speaking nosense right?You know that kill someone in a fight triggered on purpose(which was the case mentioned by you in the previous post)is a murderer and not a manslaughter? You know that the subject of this Thread,(the woman in the circle) killed on purpose thus is guilty of murderer right?Or do you need to continue to distort facts? She killed on purpose not by any accident.
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Post by oyabun on May 29, 2017 4:41:11 GMT
Aside from Connor I don't think we have ever meet a case of a person in DA who killed for accident,I would say Connor is the only one that belongs to this category(or at least of what I remember). As for Loghain and the woman mage,well I think in the warden group there are people who don't have anything to envy in terms of crimes to them both,some killed for fun like Leliana,Zevran and Shale.. others killed on purpose without regrets like Oghren and Morrigan...and others were child-murderers like Sten...Alistair and Duncan too when he used to kills recruits(*cough Jory)and Alistair was just silent about it...(partner in murdering) and HoF who beats them all since we can even count all the people murdered by the warden in their stats.... But people have problems only with Loghain because he was the source of all evils, even worse than the AD for many people,probably at the same level of Cory..
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Post by Catilina on May 29, 2017 9:44:49 GMT
Aside from Connor I don't think we have ever meet a case of a person in DA who killed for accident,I would say Connor is the only one that belongs to this category(or at least of what I remember). As for Loghain and the woman mage,well I think in the warden group there are people who don't have anything to envy in terms of crimes to them both,some killed for fun like Leliana,Zevran and Shale.. others killed on purpose without regrets like Oghren and Morrigan...and others were child-murderers like Sten...Alistair and Duncan too when he used to kills recruits(*cough Jory)and Alistair was just silent about it...(partner in murdering) and HoF who beats them all since we can even count all the people murdered by the warden in their stats.... But people have problems only with Loghain because he was the source of all evils, even worse than the AD for many people,probably at the same level of Cory. Yes, many people hate the source of evil. Surprise.
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Post by Catilina on May 29, 2017 10:11:55 GMT
You know, that this is bullshit? A big one. (Both are serious crimes, but there is a difference. Also in court judgments.) You know that you are speaking nosense right?You know that kill someone in a fight triggered on purpose(which was the case mentioned by you in the previous post)is a murderer and not a manslaughter? You know that the subject of this Thread,(the woman in the circle) killed on purpose thus is guilty of murderer right?Or do you need to continue to distort facts? She killed on purpose not by any accident. And Loghain isn't a sadistic serial killer. (Solution: these were extreme examples. The point is: this woman and Loghain aren't same. Surprise!) 1. Warden can kill this woman and spare Loghain, for example because s/he fear from magic, but doesn't fear from Loghain anymore. 2. Warden can kill this woman, because doesn't trust her, so: consider her dangerous AND unavailing, and can spare Loghain, because s/he considers him useful. 3. Warden can kill this woman for everything what she did, and from sudden upset, etc (s/he can find many reasons for it), and spare Loghain because of Anora. 4. Warden can spare this woman, because of mercy, and can execute Loghain because of Alistair (yes: personal emotion, the Warden is not a judge, how many times I must explain this simple fact?). 5. Warden can spare this woman, because of considers her the Circle's victim, and can executing Loghain because consider his crime too serious to let him alive. And can kill/spare both from many reasons, which still does not make him/her evil. (Only one thing can change this fact: If the Warden kills/spares them, because of fun.)
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Post by Iddy on May 29, 2017 11:53:25 GMT
Aside from Connor I don't think we have ever meet a case of a person in DA who killed for accident,I would say Connor is the only one that belongs to this category(or at least of what I remember). As for Loghain and the woman mage,well I think in the warden group there are people who don't have anything to envy in terms of crimes to them both,some killed for fun like Leliana,Zevran and Shale.. others killed on purpose without regrets like Oghren and Morrigan...and others were child-murderers like Sten...Alistair and Duncan too when he used to kills recruits(*cough Jory)and Alistair was just silent about it...(partner in murdering) and HoF who beats them all since we can even count all the people murdered by the warden in their stats.... But people have problems only with Loghain because he was the source of all evils, even worse than the AD for many people,probably at the same level of Cory.. We only tolerate that because they help you fight the Blight. The blood mage woman made no such promise.
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Post by oyabun on May 29, 2017 12:58:37 GMT
We only tolerate that because they help you fight the Blight. The blood mage woman made no such promise. The blood mage woman can be persuaded to make a similar deal,but you can't chek if she will ever do that because she is not in the party. Companions helping depends on what you do,there are several scenario for each one of them in which they revolt against the PC.
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