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Post by vindur on May 22, 2017 23:54:21 GMT
I wanted to create a thread about a Dragon Age phenomena who draws a lot of attention from me and am very curious about. The nature of Blood Magic, ultimately, poses questions about the very nature of the Fade, the connection of mages with it and magic itself, the Blight, the Original Sin of the Tevinter magisters... etc.
More than a thread to post a single issue about blood magic I'd like to make this a larger thread to pose all our speculations about it. I'll post my main concerns about what I find to see as key phenomena of the game, above all after a second encounter with Avernus in my current Origins replay:
The investigations of Avernus
One of the points you find in Avernus notes is that blood magic could facilitate the possibility of taking advantage of the dark spawn taint, its true essential power, without its cons (the Calling, etc.). Avernus finds to be very primitive the Grey Wardens ritual of Initiation, and in his investigations, he states that demons are the source of blood magic, while also affirming that the dark spawn are not related to them and so, the origins of this magical phenomena.
``Blood magic comes from demons; they could counter every bit of lore I possess. But the darkspawn taint, that is alien to them. And it has power.´´
Lyrium and blood
Blood Magic is explained, basically, as a means to skip lyrium as a source of magic power and use blood as a means to establish a connection with the Fade. It seems odd to me that blood magic precedes the Golden City transgression and that its origins have no real connection to dark spawn (it's a school of magic taught by Dumat, allegedly, to Archon Thalsian). It makes sense since the existence of demons predates that of the dark spawn, but the Golden City transgression seems like the most important event in the history of the Fade since its creation and it's primarily blood-related, it created a corruption in the Magisters blood, not in their capacity to use lyrium. We also know dark spawn Emmisaries use blood magic and seem to spontaneously grow with blood magic knowledge. So, basically, I think I still can't grasp the true nature of the relationship between the taint of the dark spawn and blood magic or that it has not been totally clarified yet:
``I can feel the corruption starting to take its toll on my body. I must not succumb. There is too much work to be done. Through my magic [blood magic] I've been able to slow its inevitable spread, but not stop it completely. I am starting to hear things, even while awake: A voice--more beautiful than any other--that calls to me from the depths. In my dreams, I see the Black City, and I am drawn towards it. There is something there, an answer to what this taint is, this taint that we share with the darkspawn...´´ (Avernus)
Considering mages are those who are awake to the influence of the Fade, opposed to those the Tevinter magisters called the soporati (those who are asleep, literally) the fact that they can let lyrium aside and use blood as a spring of magical power it's something very interesting. It may gives us a hint of how not even the soporati are totally severed from the Fade's influence even after Solas' deeds, and on the same level the titan blood that is lyrium can guarantee a connection to the Fade, their blood can actually do it too, although attracting exclusively demoniacal attention.
If I remember correctly, also, magic abilities were inherited by blood, although not exclusively. I guess the true nature and origins of the Old Gods, also, has an important role in this, considering it was allegedly the Old God Dumat the one who taught blood magic for the first time to a Tevinteran Archon and also the Old God that first directed a Blight.
Will much appreciate your views and speculations on blood magic lore and related! I personally thing both blood magic and the true nature and story of the Old Gods are of the greatest unknowns that future DA games are confronted with.
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Post by Abraxas on May 23, 2017 9:14:48 GMT
I guess you're going to be interested in the origins of the Grey Warden's joining ritual, then. It seems to be a gestalt of three different styles of Blood Magic:
"Whether Carinus existed or not, the tale of his travels to recruit allies conceals another truth. The first would-be Wardens were doing more than getting the word out. They were also searching for more effective ways to fight. Most records say that Nakiri of the Donark Forest was the first one to suggest that the blood of the enemy could be a crucial tool. His people believed that consuming a foe’s blood was a way to claim that enemy’s strength for oneself. As the nascent Grey Wardens investigated this possibility, many of the mages they consulted confirmed that there was power in blood. Blood magic was far from uncommon in Tevinter at that time. The nascent Grey Wardens experimented in secret.
In addition to learning from Donark practices and Tevinter blood mages, they studied lore from ancient Arlathan. This knowledge was conveyed by elven slaves who provided it on the condition that the Grey Wardens would hold elves equal with the other races among their ranks, and turn their efforts to elven liberation once the Blight was defeated."
From "The Blight & the Grey Wardens", Dragon Age RPG—Set 2, Player's Guide
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Post by vindur on May 23, 2017 12:26:28 GMT
Very interesting. The origins of blood magic are also not clear for what I've read. There are codex entries in Origins (for example, ''The Old Gods'') that trace back the first blood magic practices to the revelation of Dumat to Archon Thalsius. But there is another one, I don't remember the name, in which it's implied there is controversy amongst scholars about the issue, some of them affirming that blood magic was already practised in Arlathan. This text you copied here seems to point in this latter direction.
Which also confuses the hell outta me lol. What could possibly be the point of blood magic in Elvhonan? Magic and magical power was already a reality you could breath, and it also contradicts Avernus investigations, which state that demons are the source of blood magic as a means to conquer a mage body and mind. There were no demons in Elvhonan, the Fade was no such.
Also, the Banastor scrolls are a very interesting source to consider here. The apostate Banastor makes some sort of metaphor comparing the mind of the mage to the world of dreams (the Fade) and his body, his blood, as the purely corporeal element. Blood magic is described then as the corporeal element imposing its will over the mind (as the Fade) only if your will is strong enough. Here the mind is described as something no holier than the toe or the knee and thus your blood is a means to bind demons to your will and access to a fragment of power from the Fade.
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Post by Abraxas on May 23, 2017 12:43:59 GMT
Which also confuses the hell outta me lol. What could possibly be the point of blood magic in Elvhonan? Magic and magical power was already a reality you could breath, and it also contradicts Avernus investigations, which state that demons are the source of blood magic as a means to conquer a mage body and mind. There were no demons in Elvhonan, the Fade was no such. There is this other codex, called "The Forbidden Knowledge" that points the origins of blood magic to the Forbidden Ones (that maybe are related to the Forgotten Ones of elven lore, according to the investigation of the Band of Three in Kirkwall): "The first of the magus cast themselves deep in the Fade in search of answers and power, always power. They found the forbidden ones—Xebenkeck, Imshael, Gaxkang the Unbound, and The Formless One. Many conversations were had and much of the fabric of the world revealed. And thus the magic of blood was born."
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Abraxas
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Post by Abraxas on May 24, 2017 2:20:16 GMT
Very interesting. The origins of blood magic are also not clear for what I've read. There are codex entries in Origins (for example, ''The Old Gods'') that trace back the first blood magic practices to the revelation of Dumat to Archon Thalsius. But there is another one, I don't remember the name, in which it's implied there is controversy amongst scholars about the issue, some of them affirming that blood magic was already practised in Arlathan. This text you copied here seems to point in this latter direction. I found it. Its not a codex, its in World of Thedas 2: "The boasts of the ancient Tevinter magisters are absurd. Blood magic wasn’t some divine blessing sprinkled on their heads: its secrets were wrested from the elves of Arlathan. Yet modern understanding of the links between Tevinter lore and elven magic is pitiful. Too much had been lost. [...]
[The Band of Three] were bound with holy vows to uncover what lore they could, to trace its roots, and return that lore to us. In their search – why there are so many blood mages in Kirkwall, the nature of the Veil there, whether the “Forgotten Ones” in elven lore are connected to the “Forbidden Ones” in other works – I hoped to find the answers we need.
Alas, they died with their work incomplete."
From "Correspondence from Seeker Archives in Val Royeaux, dated 9:37 Dragon" —World of Thedas, vol. 2 (p. 165) EDIT: One thing to take into account is that Blood Magic don't draw its power from the Fade. It draws it from the physical world. Solas even says that blood magic makes one more difficult to focus in the fade. We can even say that blood mages are effective against Templars because of this (as Templars reinforce reality in the physical world, and blood magic draws its power from the physical world): "Blood Mage: Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons. It remains an undeniably violent and self-destructive discipline, however, and the Blood Mage must be careful. The temptation to take just a little more is always there."Source (Dragon Age 2 official website)
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Post by vindur on May 24, 2017 11:58:08 GMT
Very interesting. The origins of blood magic are also not clear for what I've read. There are codex entries in Origins (for example, ''The Old Gods'') that trace back the first blood magic practices to the revelation of Dumat to Archon Thalsius. But there is another one, I don't remember the name, in which it's implied there is controversy amongst scholars about the issue, some of them affirming that blood magic was already practised in Arlathan. This text you copied here seems to point in this latter direction. I found it. Its not a codex, its in World of Thedas 2: "The boasts of the ancient Tevinter magisters are absurd. Blood magic wasn’t some divine blessing sprinkled on their heads: its secrets were wrested from the elves of Arlathan. Yet modern understanding of the links between Tevinter lore and elven magic is pitiful. Too much had been lost. [...]
[The Band of Three] were bound with holy vows to uncover what lore they could, to trace its roots, and return that lore to us. In their search – why there are so many blood mages in Kirkwall, the nature of the Veil there, whether the “Forgotten Ones” in elven lore are connected to the “Forbidden Ones” in other works – I hoped to find the answers we need.
Alas, they died with their work incomplete."
From "Correspondence from Seeker Archives in Val Royeaux, dated 9:37 Dragon" —World of Thedas, vol. 2 (p. 165) EDIT: One thing to take into account is that Blood Magic don't draw its power from the Fade. It draws it from the physical world. Solas even says that blood magic makes one more difficult to focus in the fade. We can even say that blood mages are effective against Templars because of this (as Templars reinforce reality in the physical world, and blood magic draws its power from the physical world): "Blood Mage: Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons. It remains an undeniably violent and self-destructive discipline, however, and the Blood Mage must be careful. The temptation to take just a little more is always there."Source (Dragon Age 2 official website)Very clarifying indeed! Now Banastor Scrolls have more sense to me with his metaphor of ''the body over the mind'' and about the ''unholiness'' of the mind. Blood magic imposes the physical over the dream, over the Fade, that's why so many mages are tempted to use it against Templars, makes sense! But the affirmation that it doesn't necessarily favors spirits or demons still confuses me. The games get us used to relate blood magic to demoniacal influence along the whole saga: Avernus uses blood magic to bind dozens of demons to his will to defend Soldier's Peak against Arland's forces, the Desire demon that controls Connor in Red Cliff can be forced to teach you blood magic... This could make sense from this standpoint: demons are actually always trying to get into the physical world, to experience the emotions, feelings and excesses of a mortal mind, they try to find a connection that reinforces their presence in the physical world. In this case it's logical to say they are naturally attracted by blood magic, but this could only mean that blood magic, while heavily relying in the physical world, is not totally cut off from the Fade. After all it's still a form of magic, although not lyrium-dependant, right?
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Abraxas
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Post by Abraxas on May 24, 2017 13:03:21 GMT
Sort of, yeah. Blood mages, after all, even if have better chances against Templars, can still be killed by Templars. Just are more powerful, because of the nature of their magic. The ties between Blood Magic and Blight Magic are also something to consider. The Blight is something alien to demons, yet both types of magic work are so similar... only unrestricted.
(Genlocks are kind of dwarves, yet can generate emissaries. And the spells developed by Avernus can be used by any Grey Wardens, regardless of class).
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on May 31, 2017 18:09:54 GMT
Blood magic was discussed at length on the old BSN.
The writers of Dragon Age are all over the place about where they want to go with it and they end up putting out contradictory information.
For example; Avernus says demons counter all of his blood magic yet he's still able to bind them to his service through blood magic. Which is it?
There is Fade based magic in which a mage uses their personal mana or lyrium to draw power from the Fade, and blood magic in which the mage draws power from the life force energy present within blood.
Why would demons be so adept at a form of magic that is alien to them instead of the magic that their native plane consists of?
Answer: bad writing lol
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Abraxas
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Post by Abraxas on May 31, 2017 23:31:22 GMT
For example; Avernus says demons counter all of his blood magic yet he's still able to bind them to his service through blood magic. Which is it? Well, this obviously happens after his epic fail with Sophia. Before that, the guy believed himself the master of demonology. After that, he realized his Blood Magic was useless to the demons. So, he began to use a third kind of magic: Blight Magic (akin to Blood Magic, but uses the power of the Blight instead of that of blood).
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Post by vindur on May 31, 2017 23:35:07 GMT
That's why I was saying that blood magic can't be that cut off from the Fade. It existed in the Elvhenan times after all. It's more accurate to describe it, I think, as a form of magic in which the mage turns itself into a beacon, a spring of maná that flows from his blood itself and that can be spotted by demons in the Fade. That's why is the better possible bridge for a demon to jump from the Fade to a mortal host.
And there's still the lyrium enigma. We don't know still which are the real implications that the lyrium is the actual blood of the Titans, creatures that existed in the Elvhenan times and way beyond and who maintained a war against the Elvhonan People (something revealed in Trespasser that I acknowledged like a day ago because I didn't encounter that piece of lore in my playthrough. Weird).
Since I knew that event took place and that red Lyrium is pretty much tainted Titan blood (by the Blight) I've had this conviction that the Blight is actually a blood magic weapon developed by the Evanuris to murder the Titans. A weapon they knew to control a lot better but that somehow was used to punish the Tevinteran Magisters when they besieged the Golden City (which I actually think to be the rests of Arlathan). Something like this would have massive implications on blood magic and the overall lore, but as always, we'll have to wait for DA4
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 1, 2017 10:38:19 GMT
For example; Avernus says demons counter all of his blood magic yet he's still able to bind them to his service through blood magic. Which is it? Well, this obviously happens after his epic fail with Sophia. Before that, the guy believed himself the master of demonology. After that, he realized his Blood Magic was useless to the demons. So, he began to use a third kind of magic: Blight Magic (akin to Blood Magic, but uses the power of the Blight instead of that of blood). Sophia demanded he summon more and more demons. He summoned so many that he weakened the Veil to the point that he could no longer control them. I haven't played in a while but I don't believe he was referring to that incident when he was talking about the demons countering his magic. He lost control over the demons because the Veil was thin. Not because they're adept at countering blood magic.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 1, 2017 10:45:12 GMT
That's why I was saying that blood magic can't be that cut off from the Fade. It existed in the Elvhenan times after all. It's more accurate to describe it, I think, as a form of magic in which the mage turns itself into a beacon, a spring of maná that flows from his blood itself and that can be spotted by demons in the Fade. That's why is the better possible bridge for a demon to jump from the Fade to a mortal host. And there's still the lyrium enigma. We don't know still which are the real implications that the lyrium is the actual blood of the Titans, creatures that existed in the Elvhenan times and way beyond and who maintained a war against the Elvhonan People (something revealed in Trespasser that I acknowledged like a day ago because I didn't encounter that piece of lore in my playthrough. Weird). Since I knew that event took place and that red Lyrium is pretty much tainted Titan blood (by the Blight) I've had this conviction that the Blight is actually a blood magic weapon developed by the Evanuris to murder the Titans. A weapon they knew to control a lot better but that somehow was used to punish the Tevinteran Magisters when they besieged the Golden City (which I actually think to be the rests of Arlathan). Something like this would have massive implications on blood magic and the overall lore, but as always, we'll have to wait for DA4 But a demon can't just jump into you. You have to actually let it in. They use bargains and trickery but ultimately the decision is always yours. All bloodshed weakens the Veil. There was a household massacre in Denerim that thinned the Veil and demons poured through as a result. No magic involved.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 1, 2017 10:47:31 GMT
Well, this obviously happens after his epic fail with Sophia. Before that, the guy believed himself the master of demonology. After that, he realized his Blood Magic was useless to the demons. So, he began to use a third kind of magic: Blight Magic (akin to Blood Magic, but uses the power of the Blight instead of that of blood). Sophia demanded he summon more and more demons. He summoned so many that he weakened the Veil to the point that he could no longer control them. I haven't played in a while but I don't believe he was referring to that incident when he was talking about the demons countering his magic. He lost control over the demons because the Veil was thin. Not because they're adept at countering blood magic. I'd always assumed that he was referring to them countering it after his initial bindings had failed, and he now had to deal with unbound demons. At any rate I don't think your explanation could be what we're expected to gather from Avernus's quote, since he says "blood magic comes from demons; they could counter every bit of lore I knew. But the darkspawn taint! That is alien to them. And it has power." (I played through that DLC enough times in a short time period to commit that quote mostly to memory, though I'm sure it's not punctuated that way in the subtitles and I can't remember if he uses an adjective to modify the word "power.") That quote really does seem to indicate that demons can block blood magic, even if it's obviously not useless against them since binding them depends on it.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 1, 2017 10:56:30 GMT
That's what I'm saying.
How can they counter every bit of lore he knows if he can successfully bind them to his service?
It's a contradiction.
It doesn't make sense for blood magic to come from demons. They don't have blood ffs. What would they know about it?
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Post by Abraxas on Jun 1, 2017 11:37:57 GMT
AFAIK, the binding is seldom successful. Most of the time, summoning demons either ends in the demon gaining control and killing you, or either possessing you and becoming an abomination. There are a lot of examples of it in DA:O and DA2. I guess even a couple of examples in the censured one (DA:I)
A mage (even a blood mage) totally binding a demon to his/her service is rare. Binding more than one demon is even rarer.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 1, 2017 11:42:47 GMT
AFAIK, the binding is seldom successful. Most of the time, summoning demons either ends in the demon gaining control and killing you, or either possessing you and becoming an abomination. A mage totally binding a demon to its service is rare. Binding more than one demon is even rarer. There are a lot of examples of it in DA:O and DA2. I guess even a couple of examples in the censured one (DA:I) Of course, blood magic is not for idiots. It's a quite dangerous toy. Sadly the idiots rarely realize, that they are idiots.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 1, 2017 12:03:32 GMT
That's what I'm saying. How can they counter every bit of lore he knows if he can successfully bind them to his service? It's a contradiction. It doesn't make sense for blood magic to come from demons. They don't have blood ffs. What would they know about it? It is a contradiction. But that contradiction would explain why he wasn't able to bind them after the initial attempt failed, and why he had trouble with them after he summoned them. And maybe it would even explain how the initial attempt failed.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 1, 2017 12:34:12 GMT
That's what I'm saying. How can they counter every bit of lore he knows if he can successfully bind them to his service? It's a contradiction. It doesn't make sense for blood magic to come from demons. They don't have blood ffs. What would they know about it? It is a contradiction. But that contradiction would explain why he wasn't able to bind them after the initial attempt failed, and why he had trouble with them after he summoned them. And maybe it would even explain how the initial attempt failed. You mean during the Warden battle? His initial attempts were successful. He only lost control once the Veil was thinned. Blood mages throughout the series summon and bind demons seemingly with little effort. Or did you mean something else?
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 1, 2017 12:41:29 GMT
AFAIK, the binding is seldom successful. Most of the time, summoning demons either ends in the demon gaining control and killing you, or either possessing you and becoming an abomination. There are a lot of examples of it in DA:O and DA2. I guess even a couple of examples in the censured one (DA:I) A mage (even a blood mage) totally binding a demon to his/her service is rare. Binding more than one demon is even rarer. We've seen countless mages summon demons and send them against us without these same demons attacking the summoner. From this i can only surmise that these demons were in service to the mages that summoned them. Also, I'm unaware of demons being able to possess someone against their will. Can you show me examples of this?
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Post by Catilina on Jun 1, 2017 12:47:42 GMT
AFAIK, the binding is seldom successful. Most of the time, summoning demons either ends in the demon gaining control and killing you, or either possessing you and becoming an abomination. There are a lot of examples of it in DA:O and DA2. I guess even a couple of examples in the censured one (DA:I) A mage (even a blood mage) totally binding a demon to his/her service is rare. Binding more than one demon is even rarer.
We've seen countless mages summon demons and send them against us without these same demons attacking the summoner.From this i can only surmise that these demons were in service to the mages that summoned them. Also, I'm unaware of demons being able to possess someone against their will. Can you show me examples of this? Mostly Tevinters, as I remember. Probably they have more experience in it. The Chantry shamefully neglected the teaching of the safe use of the blood magic.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 1, 2017 14:11:02 GMT
There was that Orlesian mage looking for his sister who was a victim of the mad mage Quentin
There was that mage and her crew putting demons into Templars
The forest hermit
Avernus
Merrill
The leader of the runway mages that Grace was with
There was an elven blood mage serial killer in Kirkwall i think
I haven't played the games in a while so i can't recall them all but im sure there's more.
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Post by vindur on Jun 1, 2017 14:11:07 GMT
I don't agree demons always stand by your acceptance to possess a host. There are plenty of events throughout the saga in which a demon possess an unwilling host who is playing with forces he/she can't control or understand.
I think Avernus meant something else. He said demons can counter every bit of lore he knows about the issue. A demon is not going to accept to serve someone so easily, I assume they will always try to overcome the host will of binding them. As it is also described in the Banastor's Scrolls, only mages with a powerful will can bind demons to their command and only by a determinated amount of time.
I agree though with how weird sounds that demons are the source of blood magic. It is possible that Avernus was plainly wrong. I'd understand if he said that blood magic is a powerful source of demoniacal attention, but not that. Again, blood magic existed in Elvhonan if we are to believe the canon, and there were no spirits or demons then. I think Avernus is just wrong and it's the classical example of a talented investigator with no enough information at his disposal to solve a problem, as he actually seems to feel regarding the Grey Warden's blood issue.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 1, 2017 14:14:12 GMT
You're correct Catalina.
The Chantry oppressing magic is like the Catholic Church suppressing science.
Such foolishness only stifles progress.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 1, 2017 14:16:35 GMT
Can you give me specific examples vindur?
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Post by vindur on Jun 1, 2017 14:27:08 GMT
The Broken Circle gives lots of examples I think. Not only of unwilling possessions (with the ''help'' of other mages like Uldred) but also of plenty of demons who outright escape their summoners control.
Connor's possession by a Desire demon is also a good example. It is suggested that it happened because of Connor's inexperience and that he came across with the demon in the Fade. Could the demon just easily persuade him to let it in, or did it forced it? Not sure.
On the other hand, the ''Kitten'' demon of Honnleath seems to be waiting for something to possess the girl in the basement and for some reason couldn't force the possession. I think thre are examples of both points of view here, or at least, plenty of ambiguity around the issue.
Banastor's Scrolls still seem key to me. And I remember they talked about the mage's will as a crucial factor.
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