inherit
749
0
Mar 10, 2024 18:44:44 GMT
3,653
Iddy
3,727
August 2016
iddy
|
Post by Iddy on May 26, 2017 0:33:17 GMT
I believe people's condemnation of the destruction of the Chantry temple was that it caused the death of kind hearted Elthina.
But what if the ones inside the building were only priests and Andrastian leaders who adamantly oppose mage freedom? Would you not consider it a righteous blow against his oppressors?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
7959
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 26, 2017 2:02:05 GMT
I believe people's condemnation of the destruction of the Chantry temple was that it caused the death of kind hearted Elthina. But what if the ones inside the building were only priests and Andrastian leaders who adamantly oppose mage freedom? Would you not consider it a righteous blow against his oppressors? Anders' act of propaganda by deed was directed specifically against Ethina to remove the compromise. It could not have been directed against anyone else to provoke the same revolutionary situation. She was the barrier, that is why he is motivated to act against her. She is the one that maintains the status quo and prevents the matters to reach boiling point. Hey, he left you a manifesto in your bedroom, I am sure he covered it there.
|
|
inherit
8542
0
95
The_Smiling_Bandit
66
May 2017
thesmilingbandit
|
Post by The_Smiling_Bandit on May 26, 2017 2:41:30 GMT
In a word “no”. In more than one word; I’m fairly certain that Anders’ destruction of a religious structure with civilians inside is a war crime in multiple ways.
|
|
inherit
1685
0
1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
1,501
Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on May 26, 2017 9:07:36 GMT
I believe people's condemnation of the destruction of the Chantry temple was that it caused the death of kind hearted Elthina. But what if the ones inside the building were only priests and Andrastian leaders who adamantly oppose mage freedom? Would you not consider it a righteous blow against his oppressors? Even if the cathedral itself only had priests in it, and even if all those priests were strongly anti-mage-freedom, that doesn't change the fact that the cathedral rained rocks down on Kirkwall afterward, or the fact that that was step one of a plan for which Step Two was an unjustified Annulment. Even if those weren't problems, though, there's the whole debate on whether or not the Circles are actually justified to consider.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 22, 2024 10:49:42 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 9:08:59 GMT
I believe people's condemnation of the destruction of the Chantry temple was that it caused the death of kind hearted Elthina. But what if the ones inside the building were only priests and Andrastian leaders who adamantly oppose mage freedom? Would you not consider it a righteous blow against his oppressors? Elthina's not kind-hearted, she has sarcastric humour (this is the only thing what I like in her), and strongly interest in the eternity instead real people of Kirkwall. At first, of course, she seems a decent, wise woman, but the more I listen her circumlocution of "I don't like Meredit's methods, but both side has good and wrong points", the more I want to punch due to helpless anger (Do not you see, old bitch, what's happening? Or do you think that's right?) I know is not fair do punch a woman, I guess that's the reason what why Anders blew up her instead... Seriously: the Grand Cleric was the main target, and the building, which was a symbol of institutionalized violence. But it may not have happened, if Elthina not as "wise" "neutral" old woman, but a feckin' leader. (What Anders did, was not crime, what the Chantry did for centuries was crime – my opinion.)
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 22, 2024 10:49:42 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 9:10:34 GMT
In a word “no”. In more than one word; I’m fairly certain that Anders’ destruction of a religious structure with civilians inside is a war crime in multiple ways. True. The Facebook campaign is much more peaceful.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
2726
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 26, 2017 9:50:13 GMT
No. Ends do not justify the means no matter how noble his cause was, his way of achieving it was monstrous
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 22, 2024 10:49:42 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 10:17:09 GMT
No. Ends do not justify the means no matter how noble his cause was, his way of achieving it was monstrous No. What the Chantry did, was monstrous. A revolution rarely gentle. "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." (John F. Kennedy) Someone had to start somehow. He undertook.
|
|
inherit
8542
0
95
The_Smiling_Bandit
66
May 2017
thesmilingbandit
|
Post by The_Smiling_Bandit on May 26, 2017 11:03:47 GMT
In a word “no”. In more than one word; I’m fairly certain that Anders’ destruction of a religious structure with civilians inside is a war crime in multiple ways. True. The Facebook campaign is much more peaceful. Okay, yes, peace may not work. But to give up on the peaceful solution and use the easier violent solution is the path of the coward; after all it is easier to make others suffer than to suffer yourself. And the revolution that Anders incites pits untrained fighters against a force that is literally trained, equipped and augmented to fight the aforementioned untrained force. Regardless, in this situation, there are multiple combatants that could be targeted instead of the civilian one.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 22, 2024 10:49:42 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 11:10:49 GMT
True. The Facebook campaign is much more peaceful. Okay, yes, peace may not work. But to give up on the peaceful solution and use the easier violent solution is the path of the coward; after all it is easier to make others suffer than to suffer yourself. And the revolution that Anders incites pits untrained fighters against a force that is literally trained, equipped and augmented to fight the aforementioned untrained force. Regardless, in this situation, there are multiple combatants that could be targeted instead of the civilian one. Everyone except the Templars is civilian. Including Anders. And everyone's involved. Anders tried to find a peaceful solution for more than seven years. To attack the Templars would a heroic and incredibly foolish act (who would care about this ugly construction, where live only the mages?). Sorry for the victims, but what Anders did, was effective.
|
|
inherit
8542
0
95
The_Smiling_Bandit
66
May 2017
thesmilingbandit
|
Post by The_Smiling_Bandit on May 26, 2017 11:18:48 GMT
Okay, yes, peace may not work. But to give up on the peaceful solution and use the easier violent solution is the path of the coward; after all it is easier to make others suffer than to suffer yourself. And the revolution that Anders incites pits untrained fighters against a force that is literally trained, equipped and augmented to fight the aforementioned untrained force. Regardless, in this situation, there are multiple combatants that could be targeted instead of the civilian one. Everyone except the Templars is civilian. Including Anders. And everyone's involved. Anders tried to find a peaceful solution for more than seven years. To attack the Templars would a heroic and incredibly foolish act (who would care about this ugly construction, where live only the mages?). Sorry for the victims, but what Anders did, was effective. So it’s okay for Anders to not fight the Templar directly and instead force mages who are far less prepared to do so?
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 22, 2024 10:49:42 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 11:29:59 GMT
Everyone except the Templars is civilian. Including Anders. And everyone's involved. Anders tried to find a peaceful solution for more than seven years. To attack the Templars would a heroic and incredibly foolish act (who would care about this ugly construction, where live only the mages?). Sorry for the victims, but what Anders did, was effective. So it’s okay for Anders to not fight the Templar directly and instead force mages who are far less prepared to do so? Alone, against an army? He's perhaps possessed, but neither fool nor suicidal. As I said, the foolish "courage" isn't effective. These mages were already sentenced to death by Meredith. Fighting for life and freedom, instead to wait for the death as a cattle at the slaughterhouse was the question. (Bethany at the end saw, that to fight for the freedom is the best way.)
|
|
inherit
8542
0
95
The_Smiling_Bandit
66
May 2017
thesmilingbandit
|
Post by The_Smiling_Bandit on May 26, 2017 11:35:01 GMT
So it’s okay for Anders to not fight the Templar directly and instead force mages who are far less prepared to do so? Alone, against an army? He's perhaps possessed, but neither fool nor suicidal. As I said, the foolish "courage" isn't effective. These mages were already sentenced to death by Meredith. Fighting for life and freedom, instead to wait for the death as a cattle at the slaughterhouse was the question. But they weren’t sentenced to death until Anders set off his little bomb.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
2726
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 26, 2017 11:36:06 GMT
No. Ends do not justify the means no matter how noble his cause was, his way of achieving it was monstrous No. What the Chantry did, was monstrous. A revolution rarely gentle. "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." (John F. Kennedy) Someone had to start somehow. He undertook. İ wasn't defending the Chantry but the way Anders took action. It is my belief that no matter how noble your intentions are you shouldn't make it happen with killing innocents. I holds this opinion in my real life as well, ends do not justify the means
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 22, 2024 10:49:42 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 11:39:29 GMT
Alone, against an army? He's perhaps possessed, but neither fool nor suicidal. As I said, the foolish "courage" isn't effective. These mages were already sentenced to death by Meredith. Fighting for life and freedom, instead to wait for the death as a cattle at the slaughterhouse was the question. But they weren’t sentenced to death until Anders set off his little bomb. Meredith didn't knew about Anders' plan. If you speak with Karras at the Gallows in Act 3, He told, that the mages will die. And: Anders wanted to give a chance to Elthina to change her mind. But she was an idiot/malicious.
|
|
inherit
8542
0
95
The_Smiling_Bandit
66
May 2017
thesmilingbandit
|
Post by The_Smiling_Bandit on May 26, 2017 11:45:14 GMT
But they weren’t sentenced to death until Anders set off his little bomb. Meredith didn't knew about Anders' plan. If you speak with Karras at the Gallows in Act 3, He told, that the mages will die. And: Anders wanted to give a chance to Elthina to change her mind. But she was an idiot/malicious. But, as I understand it at least, Meredith didn’t actually have the authority to pull that particular trigger until Anders set off his little bomb.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 22, 2024 10:49:42 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 11:47:07 GMT
No. What the Chantry did, was monstrous. A revolution rarely gentle. "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." (John F. Kennedy) Someone had to start somehow. He undertook. İ wasn't defending the Chantry but the way Anders took action. It is my belief that no matter how noble your intentions are you shouldn't make it happen with killing innocents. I holds this opinion in my real life as well, ends do not justify the means Bullshit, big and stinky. 1. Almost every victim "innocent" in a war. 2. Yes, the slave revolts were not justified either, if caused some bloodshed. The most important are the peace. No matter how much suffering required, the slaves need to understand, that the peace of the "civilians" more important than their stupidness about some freedom...
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 22, 2024 10:49:42 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 11:49:07 GMT
Meredith didn't knew about Anders' plan. If you speak with Karras at the Gallows in Act 3, He told, that the mages will die. And: Anders wanted to give a chance to Elthina to change her mind. But she was an idiot/malicious. But, as I understand it at least, Meredith didn’t actually have the authority to pull that particular trigger until Anders set off his little bomb. And you think, that the mages must just sit on their ass, and wait for anyone benevolence... oh, I forget: they even can pray for it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
2726
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on May 26, 2017 11:51:58 GMT
İ wasn't defending the Chantry but the way Anders took action. It is my belief that no matter how noble your intentions are you shouldn't make it happen with killing innocents. I holds this opinion in my real life as well, ends do not justify the means Bullshit, big and stinky. 1. Almost every victim "innocent" in a war. 2. Yes, the slave revolts were not justified either, if caused some bloodshed. The most important are the peace. No matter how much suffering required, the slaves need to understand, that the peace of the "civilians" is the most important thing. Slaves in real life do not have magical powers. Mages in DA should've had their voting for independence without the destruction of chantry so they can fight their war. Anders kind of forced them into war
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 22, 2024 10:49:42 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 11:56:16 GMT
Bullshit, big and stinky. 1. Almost every victim "innocent" in a war. 2. Yes, the slave revolts were not justified either, if caused some bloodshed. The most important are the peace. No matter how much suffering required, the slaves need to understand, that the peace of the "civilians" is the most important thing. Slaves in real life do not have magical powers. Mages in DA should've had their voting for independence without the destruction of chantry so they can fight their war. Anders kind of forced them into war Voting? (Especially in Kirkwall..) And a Facebook campaign, yes. I said. Fiona tried... failed. No matter, they have magical power or not: the system was cruel, unjust AND even dangerous.
|
|
inherit
8542
0
95
The_Smiling_Bandit
66
May 2017
thesmilingbandit
|
Post by The_Smiling_Bandit on May 26, 2017 11:58:00 GMT
But, as I understand it at least, Meredith didn’t actually have the authority to pull that particular trigger until Anders set off his little bomb. And you think, that the mages must just sit on their ass, and wait for anyone benevolence... oh, I forget: they even can pray for it. No, passivity accomplishes nothing. But your argument seems to be predicated on the idea that violent revolt is the best option, and that's what I take offense to.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 22, 2024 10:49:42 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 12:00:03 GMT
And you think, that the mages must just sit on their ass, and wait for anyone benevolence... oh, I forget: they even can pray for it. No, passivity accomplishes nothing. But your argument seems to be predicated on the idea that violent revolt is the best option, and that's what I take offense to. Against violence? Sometimes not only the best, but the only solution. Anders and Fiona tried the other ways... failed, both.
|
|
Sah291
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Prime Posts: 1,240
Prime Likes: 1340
Posts: 862 Likes: 1,935
inherit
306
0
1,935
Sah291
862
August 2016
sah291
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
1,240
1340
|
Post by Sah291 on May 26, 2017 12:06:38 GMT
Comparing the Chantry to a modern day church or temple is apples to oranges, IMO, it's maybe not military, but it's still a state and governmental body in Dragon Age...one that represents an empire, with a standing army, with direct control over leaders. It wasn't as simple as appointing a mage friendly leader in Kirkwall. The Templars opposed it and the Chantry threatened to invade. It would have caused a war anyway.
|
|
inherit
8542
0
95
The_Smiling_Bandit
66
May 2017
thesmilingbandit
|
Post by The_Smiling_Bandit on May 26, 2017 12:08:01 GMT
No, passivity accomplishes nothing. But your argument seems to be predicated on the idea that violent revolt is the best option, and that's what I take offense to. Against violence? Sometimes not only the best, but the only solution. Anders and Fiona tried the other ways... failed, both. But that violence was illegal... (wait for it)... until Anders set off his bomb.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 22, 2024 10:49:42 GMT
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 12:11:11 GMT
Against violence? Sometimes not only the best, but the only solution. Anders and Fiona tried the other ways... failed, both. But that violence was illegal... (wait for it)... until Anders set off his bomb. I didn't speak about Meredith's Annulment (at least not only about the Annulment). The violence happened already for centuries. Oh, I see: the violence behind the closed doors isn't violence, because doesn't hurt the "civilians"... And what? This would be ILLEGAL? As I experienced neither Meredith, not Elthina was bothered by illegal things... Meredith (and Elthina) was law-breaker.
|
|