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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 12:56:49 GMT
Templars are drug addicts. Prolonged lyrium use eventually destroys their minds. If the mages are free, they should be trusted to police each other. No need for people to ruin themselves by becoming Templars. As I know, their abilities useable without lyrium addiction. But in any case, the people need effective police against the rogue mages. Mages, seekers, templars, together. Of course, I prefer not using lyrium. What the Chantry did against the mages and also the templars, is unacceptable. +1
You can never, ever allow self-policing without any accountability to a third party. Even the game itself gives you an example why, with both Orsino and Anders voicing a few times a concern as to "how is it going to look" and Orsino's letter to Quentin indicating that he knew enough to suspect what was going on, and tried to warn Quentin to cease and desist before too long, but did nothing. It is a very natural behavior.
Chantry inserted itself to provide a regulatory oversight, and employed its surveillance and enforcement branch, the Templars. Which should have been Okay, if Chantry did not have a religious agenda and a partisan approach. It's the use of ideology, rather than a clear policy and a clear statement of Templar's values that made the arrangement exploitative of both groups by the Chantry. In other words, it was not acting in good faith and for the benefit of the society.
Templar's use of Lyrium vs innate magic ability imo belongs in a different conversation, and honestly, not the one I am prepared to have based on the lore from the game and because we have never had an insight into a functioning Templar, always from a disenfranchised ex-Templar. From what I have seen in the games, I think that like with Wardens, some percentage of population can take Lyrium for a prolonged time to acquire para-magical abilities (Fenris, for example, demonstrates extreme resistance to Lyrium). Red Lyrium, obviously is a no-no. Other than that, who can say.
However, in the course of all three games, I feel I missed my chance to have any say in what to do about Templars, and gotten enough to go on to define what I can do about them as an all-powerful player. It's always only about the mages, mages and mages again. I find it irritating that it is so one-sided.
And, all those pointless musing aside (that are not going to win me any friends), I stand by my belief that Anders lit the right fuse.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 9, 2017 13:46:32 GMT
Mages can police themselves.
Not everyone with magic powers will automatically be on the same side.
Take comic books for example. Tons of people with super powers. Some team up to do bad things and some team up to do good things. If there are all these oppressive laws on the good ones, then who's going to stop the bad ones?
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 9, 2017 13:49:45 GMT
In the comics, super powered people police each other right?
Why would it be any different for mages?
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Post by Iddy on Jun 9, 2017 14:09:24 GMT
In the comics, super powered people police each other right? Why would it be any different for mages? As far as I remember it, super heroes simply aren't policed. They operate outside the law, which means they're above it.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 9, 2017 14:44:05 GMT
In the comics, super powered people police each other right? Why would it be any different for mages? As far as I remember it, super heroes simply aren't policed. They operate outside the law, which means they're above it. I'm talking about all of the super folk. Not just the heroes. When Metallo acts up, Superman puts him down. When Magneto acts up, the X-Men put him down. Just 2 examples of super powered people policing each other. Mages can do the same. No need for anyone to become a drug addict.
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Post by congokong on Jun 9, 2017 15:03:41 GMT
What Anders did was terrorism. He saw a gray situation in black/white and killed many people to hopefully push the change he wanted. If you support that, you'd be a hypocrite to not support (or at least sympathize with) real life terrorists like those behind 9/11, people who bomb abortion clinics, etc. They too see a gray situation in black/white and kill many people to hopefully push the change they want. That's what any terrorist fueled by a cause is about.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 9, 2017 15:10:48 GMT
Word it however you want. What Anders the Idiot did was uncalled for. But then again merging with a spirit believing nothing bad would come about it would be ok. Yeah. He's about 6 cans short of a six pack.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 9, 2017 16:16:22 GMT
What Anders did was terrorism. He saw a gray situation in black/white and killed many people to hopefully push the change he wanted. If you support that, you'd be a hypocrite to not support (or at least sympathize with) real life terrorists like those behind 9/11, people who bomb abortion clinics, etc. They too see a gray situation in black/white and kill many people to hopefully push the change they want. That's what any terrorist fueled by a cause is about. What Anders did, wasn't terrorism. It has nothing to do with modern terrorist actions. I'm agree, this situation isn't grey, clearly black and white, and Anders/Justice is the White Knight (okay with some inevitable bloodshed...), the Templars and Elthina represent the dark side.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 16:22:50 GMT
I do not support either terrorism or anarchism, but the plot and the character appeals to me, because it draws on historic figures in the nineteenth to early twentieth century. My upbringing makes it very hard not to romanticize revolutionary figures & my upbringing was as one-sided as a Westerner's but since I had ample time to review your PoV, I can see that. Most folks here in the West are too far removed from the realities of the revolutions that brought about their current unprecedented prosperity to understand how necessary it is, and what it truly means to have nothing and be truly oppressed. Overall, ignorance and absence of interest in human history is one of the greatest losses with the over-emphasis on the science/technology parts of modern education. If it's taught to the masses at all, it's condensed to platitudes and a handful of dates.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 9, 2017 16:56:56 GMT
Mages can police themselves. Not everyone with magic powers will automatically be on the same side. Take comic books for example. Tons of people with super powers. Some team up to do bad things and some team up to do good things. If there are all these oppressive laws on the good ones, then who's going to stop the bad ones? Yes, I agree, not everyone's same, and the "good" mages would able to stop the "bad" mages. This is why the must be the part of the police, an because they are effective, just as the seekers/templars. But the people can't trust the mages, and this is understandable, for several reasons, for example the Chantry propaganda, but even the behavior of some mages. If this law enforcement would consist of different groups of people (mages, templars/seekers, simple guards), then this could be working better, and would be more difficult to become biased to the organization against the mages, or toward the mages.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 9, 2017 17:53:00 GMT
Agreed except for the Templars. Lyrium addiction is cruel and unnecessary.
The Seekers are similar and arguably better. They can serve a similar function with none of the drawbacks.
So a police force of Seekers, mages, and mundanes would be ideal.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 9, 2017 17:58:25 GMT
Oh, almost forgot!
The people can't trust the mages but they also can't trust the Seekers, Templars, city guard, the nobility, strangers etc.
No one can be trusted really.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 9, 2017 18:04:04 GMT
Oh, almost forgot! The people can't trust the mages but they also can't trust the Seekers, Templars, city guard, the nobility, strangers etc. No one can be trusted really. This is doubtless. But law enforcements are needed and cooperation is better than to give exclusive power to only one group of people.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 9, 2017 18:25:49 GMT
Agreed.
However, mages are inherently superior and wil inevitably rise to the top of any organization that they're in. In time they'll be the elite. Eventually they'll be running the show. The police force, the city, the country, the world. A magocracy is inevitable. Good thing there's not many of them.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 9, 2017 19:27:25 GMT
Agreed. However, mages are inherently superior and wil inevitably rise to the top of any organization that they're in. In time they'll be the elite. Eventually they'll be running the show. The police force, the city, the country, the world. A magocracy is inevitable. Good thing there's not many of them. I suppose, not totally inevitable, because their superiority not meant also suitability, and as you said, not every mages are same. The mages are also people: elves, humans, Free Marchers and Fereldans, Orlesians, not just mages. Not all people have political power, who stronger than the others. Not every mages would be able to be leader, and not every mages want to be leader. These people can help to prevent the violent takeover of power. And if anyone would able to lead, no problem, if this wo/man is mage or non-mage. The problem is the abuse of power. Human sacrifice, slavery etc.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 9, 2017 21:12:53 GMT
What Anders did was terrorism. He saw a gray situation in black/white and killed many people to hopefully push the change he wanted. If you support that, you'd be a hypocrite to not support (or at least sympathize with) real life terrorists like those behind 9/11, people who bomb abortion clinics, etc. They too see a gray situation in black/white and kill many people to hopefully push the change they want. That's what any terrorist fueled by a cause is about. Disagree. It's a game and can easily divorce it from real life. Given the lore of the game Anders had no choice to bomb the Chantry. The Chantry held too much power over the people, the templars and the mages. Wynne one could argue was trying to change within the rules from the inside, same with Irving. But it wasn't working. What happened in Kirkwall- Elthina turned a blind eye to what was happening, she even promoted mother Patrice possibly knowing what Patrice wasn't as squeaky clean given she was not surprised about the plot. When you have too much power concentrated in so few people nothing good can happen. Kirkwall was inevitable. Anders, maker help him if he didn't merge with Justice he may not have take that course. Being in Kirkwall with Justice pushed him over the edge. It had to be done Awakening-Anders probably wouldn't stay in Kirkwall after Karl died, just for the refugees and the other mages.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 9, 2017 22:17:04 GMT
Awakening-Anders probably wouldn't stay in Kirkwall after Karl died, just for the refugees and the other mages. Where do you think he would have gone? Other than meeting Hawke and being at his side. Away from Kirkwall? Anywhere. Kirkwall is dangerous for an apostate. He only came into Kirkwall for Karl. Hawke probably would able to keep him in Kirkwall, but I'm not sure about it. In love, probably (he didn't try to escape from the Circle, while Karl was with him, so: there is a chance, that he would stay in Kirkwall with Hawke), but I'm not sure about, that he would start the love relationship with Hawke, if he would go away after Karl's death. In Awakening, he didn't believe, that he has enough strength to do anything for the freedom of his fellows. Only after, that he talked with Justice, he thought about it and decided that it must do so. If he wouldn't meet with Justice, he simply would have fled, I suppose. What would happen, if he would meet Justice in Awakening, and befriend with him, but they not merge? I don't know, that would be enough what Justice told him. He said, that after they talked, he wasn't able to stop to thinking about what Justice told him about the mages (DA2, Act1, Isabela banter: "Justice once asked me why I didn't do more for other mages. I told him it was too much work. But I couldn't go back after that. Couldn't stop thinking about it.") Maybe this conversation has changed him, but I don't know, that would enough to carry through such a plan. In this case, perhaps he would stay in Kirkwall, and work with the Mage Underground. He wasn't as cold as the Spirit of Justice (not a "good" spirit, just righteous), but he was still angry. After that Meredith destroyed the Mage Underground, he would be able to work with Resolutionists? Or do it alone? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Probably he needed Justice's coldness to blow up the Chantry.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 9, 2017 22:46:56 GMT
Away from Kirkwall? Anywhere. Kirkwall is dangerous for an apostate. He only came into Kirkwall for Karl. Hawke probably would able to keep him in Kirkwall, but I'm not sure about it. In love, probably (he didn't try to escape from the Circle, while Karl was with him, so: there is a chance, that he would stay in Kirkwall with Hawke), but I'm not sure about, that he would start the love relationship with Hawke, if he would go away after Karl's death. In Awakening, he didn't believe, that he has enough strength to do anything for the freedom of his fellows. Only after, that he talked with Justice, he thought about it and decided that it must do so. If he wouldn't meet with Justice, he simply would have fled, I suppose. What would happen, if he would meet Justice in Awakening, and befriend with him, but they not merge? I don't know, that would be enough what Justice told him. He said, that after they talked, he wasn't able to stop to thinking about what Justice told him about the mages. Maybe this conversation has changed him, but I don't know, that would enough to carry through such a plan. In this case, perhaps he would stay in Kirkwall, and work with the Mage Underground. He wasn't as cold as the Spirit of Justice (not a "good" spirit, just righteous), but he was still angry. After that Meredith destroyed the Mage Underground, he would be able to work with Resolutionists? Or do it alone? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Probably he needed Justice's coldness to blow up the Chantry. Now that is interesting. They did have a friendship going when Justice was in the wardens body. If separate Justice remained by Anders they would still talk about the mages. If Justice planted the seed to begin with. Maybe it doesn't matter if they merged or not. He afraid, that his anger corrupted Justice, so he could be very angry. Even in Awakening, if we can ignore, how funny things he said, we can see his anger and hatred. (He covered this with humor, and charm, but he was rather sarcastic than funny. When Mhairi asked that "An apostate, in the Vigil's Keep?", Anders immediately started to charm her... routinely. Seems defense, rather than courtship.) This anger in a place like Kirkwall literally could explode.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 11, 2017 15:04:48 GMT
Anders should have known better than to merge with a spirit.
He could have found a fresh corpse for Justice to inhabit. There was no need to offer himself as a host.
I wouldn't be surprised if Justice was a pride demon who successfully pulled a long con on the fool.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 11, 2017 17:03:21 GMT
Anders should have known better than to merge with a spirit. He could have found a fresh corpse for Justice to inhabit. There was no need to offer himself as a host. I wouldn't be surprised if Justice was a pride demon who successfully pulled a long con on the fool. The Chantry didn't teach anything else about the merging, just that this is bad. Even Wynne felt abomination, and was not sure about what she did, she did well. So: neither Anders, nor Justice know so much about, how will exactly working. A fresh corpse would be a half-solution, to Justice, Anders was the ideal host*, and Anders wanted Justice's help. No, Justice's not a pride demon. He was written as the Spirit of Justice, and perhaps he can turn to Vengeance. We can see Justice as a spirit, or we can him see as a demon, but this is clear that not pride demon. Anders's nature was not overconfident, he wouldn't able to turn Justice to Pride demon (even if this would be possible), but he has accumulated anger, whit which he could capable to turn Justice into Vengeance. Not mentioned, that Anders' behavior after the merging in DA2 did not suggest pride demon presence. ________________ *At least they thought that... later Anders was not sure, that what he did was a very good idea, because he believed, that he corrupted Justice. This was not really true. I suppose, Justice even corrupted by the mortal world too.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 11, 2017 18:52:14 GMT
Mages can police themselves. Not everyone with magic powers will automatically be on the same side. Take comic books for example. Tons of people with super powers. Some team up to do bad things and some team up to do good things. If there are all these oppressive laws on the good ones, then who's going to stop the bad ones? People who burn their minds out on lyrium to gain anti-superpower superpowers, in addition to actually knowing how to fight. As for trusting mages to guard other mages, I should probably point out that in this setting, mages who team up to do bad things have a serious advantage in blood magic. I'm not one of the people who thinks you need to be bad to use it, or that it makes you bad, but it absolutely works best for bad people. Agreed except for the Templars. Lyrium addiction is cruel and unnecessary. The Seekers are similar and arguably better. They can serve a similar function with none of the drawbacks. So a police force of Seekers, mages, and mundanes would be ideal. The main problem with this idea is that the Seeker ritual has a failure rate, and that failure means permanent Tranquility. We don't know what that failure rate is, but the fact that there is a failure rate, coupled with the price of failure, means that an addiction that you can break with enough willpower is arguably a better deal.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 12, 2017 14:48:05 GMT
@cat:
I like my Pride demon idea so ima stick to it despite evidence to the contrary. Of which there is none really. He could have been faking the funk the whole time. How could we tell?
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 12, 2017 14:54:26 GMT
@river:
I didn't know/forgot about the tranquil thing. Isn't there a cure for it though?
Anyway if Seekers aren't a superior alternative to Templars then it makes even more sense to just have the mages handle it.
The cost of mundanes attempting to hang with the big boys is too great imo. Either a drug addled simpleton or a soulless meatbot? No thanks. It's all yours mages.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 12, 2017 14:57:29 GMT
@cat: I like my Pride demon idea so ima stick to it despite evidence to the contrary. Of which there is none really. He could have been faking the funk the whole time. How could we tell? This is your business, but that doesn't meant, that's you MAYBE right, because you're not. Justice could turn into demon or stay spirit. But he written as Siprit of Justice, not the Fake Spirit of Justice. This is fact, of the whole character concept of Anders/Justice is lost the sense. So, if you want's an alternate universe, then your concept is okay, but not the "real" Dragon Age. (Why you don't like Vengeance, why you insist to Pride?)
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 12, 2017 15:16:39 GMT
Well he may have turned into a demon of vengeance but i like the idea that he was a demon the whole time and pride demons are the ones most likely to be able to pull something like this off.
Remember mouse from the mage origin? I think that's a pretty good example of pride demon craftiness right there. If a demon can pretend to be a Circle mage, why can't it pretend to be a spirit of justice?
Think about how old these demons are. They've existed in the Fade watching and studying elves and humans for the entirety of the time these two peoples have been around. Eons uncounting. I imagine they've learned how to effectively manipulate us in all that time.
You don't have to agree with me though. I'm not trying to convince you. I just like the idea of it.
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