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Post by Catilina on Jul 15, 2017 8:26:07 GMT
A random guy ofc, but combined with a magical stuff and/or an army... and/or a mage, who works for him/her (a mage can be manipulated, just as everyone else and can be a weapon in someone's hand). Everyone can be dangerous. The possible danger does not justify imprisonment Why is the fact that a random guy can manipulate a mage into working for him a reason mages aren't dangerous? Yeah, the manipulator is a lot of the problem, and he can probably manipulate non-mages too, but he'd be much less dangerous if the mage was locked up.So: the Mages must be locked up because there are people, who want to use them. Aha. I got it.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jul 15, 2017 8:43:35 GMT
Why is the fact that a random guy can manipulate a mage into working for him a reason mages aren't dangerous? Yeah, the manipulator is a lot of the problem, and he can probably manipulate non-mages too, but he'd be much less dangerous if the mage was locked up.So: the Mages must be locked up because there are people, who want to use them. Aha. I got it. Yeah, for instance. Limiting who can employ mages is one of the arguments people make in favor of The Circle.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 15, 2017 8:47:50 GMT
So: the Mages must be locked up because there are people, who want to use them. Aha. I got it. Yeah, for instance. Limiting who can employ mages is one of the arguments people make in favor of The Circle. Yes. This is the best argument to justify Anders.
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PSN: sonny062699
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Post by daelonduluc on Jul 18, 2017 15:51:45 GMT
It's much simpler than that. Anders did it to set up Dragon Age III (Inquisition).
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Post by tacsear on Jul 18, 2017 19:59:12 GMT
It's much simpler than that. Anders did it to set up Dragon Age III (Inquisition). The guy was thinking about us all the time
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daelonduluc
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: sonny062699
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Post by daelonduluc on Jul 18, 2017 20:18:43 GMT
It's much simpler than that. Anders did it to set up Dragon Age III (Inquisition). The guy was thinking about us all the time He's a giver!
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 3, 2017 4:22:12 GMT
Yeah, for instance. Limiting who can employ mages is one of the arguments people make in favor of The Circle. This is one of many mistakes the Chantry and Circle has made regarding mages - making them feared by the populous and not training mages to resist demons properly and to control the gift of magic. Really? Because I was under the impression that training mages to resist demons properly and control magic was half the point of the Circle.None of that is what I was arguing should be prevented, though. I was arguing that people who want to use mages to commit crimes should be prevented from getting them. That isn't the same as saying that healing and other useful aspects of magic should be limited to those who can in some way compensate the Chantry for them, and in fact I agree that the Chantry should have made those more available. I will grant that I didn't really word my argument in a way that made that clear, though. Although on the other hand, why do people need mage teachers? If the would-be student is a mage themselves, I'd argue they should be in the Circle anyway. If they aren't, then what can the mage teach them that they can't learn from another muggle? I know in DA:O's spiritual predecessor you needed to be a supergenius to be an effective mage, so in that setting there was an actual reason to seek a mage teacher in preference to a muggle, but I didn't think magic worked that way in this setting.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 3, 2017 8:08:19 GMT
This is one of many mistakes the Chantry and Circle has made regarding mages - making them feared by the populous and not training mages to resist demons properly and to control the gift of magic. Really? Because I was under the impression that training mages to resist demons properly and control magic was half the point of the Circle.None of that is what I was arguing should be prevented, though. I was arguing that people who want to use mages to commit crimes should be prevented from getting them. That isn't the same as saying that healing and other useful aspects of magic should be limited to those who can in some way compensate the Chantry for them, and in fact I agree that the Chantry should have made those more available. I will grant that I didn't really word my argument in a way that made that clear, though. Although on the other hand, why do people need mage teachers? If the would-be student is a mage themselves, I'd argue they should be in the Circle anyway. If they aren't, then what can the mage teach them that they can't learn from another muggle? I know in DA:O's spiritual predecessor you needed to be a supergenius to be an effective mage, so in that setting there was an actual reason to seek a mage teacher in preference to a muggle, but I didn't think magic worked that way in this setting. To resist demons, yes, not to learn the spirits' nature. The Circle mostly only teaches them to fear from the demons (Vivieene). This is a big difference. Why do people need teachers? A mage must learn a lot in his/her youth. The Circles full of books, probably there have books, what not related to the theme of magic. Especially, if they will live freely after their studies, they must have some general knowledge. Those who are accustomed to learning learn more easily, and as I wrote, a mage must learn. Some of them could be good teachers.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 3, 2017 9:51:04 GMT
Really? Because I was under the impression that training mages to resist demons properly and control magic was half the point of the Circle.None of that is what I was arguing should be prevented, though. I was arguing that people who want to use mages to commit crimes should be prevented from getting them. That isn't the same as saying that healing and other useful aspects of magic should be limited to those who can in some way compensate the Chantry for them, and in fact I agree that the Chantry should have made those more available. I will grant that I didn't really word my argument in a way that made that clear, though. Although on the other hand, why do people need mage teachers? If the would-be student is a mage themselves, I'd argue they should be in the Circle anyway. If they aren't, then what can the mage teach them that they can't learn from another muggle? I know in DA:O's spiritual predecessor you needed to be a supergenius to be an effective mage, so in that setting there was an actual reason to seek a mage teacher in preference to a muggle, but I didn't think magic worked that way in this setting. To resist demons, yes, not to learn the spirits' nature. The Circle mostly only teaches them to fear from the demons (Vivieene). This is a big difference. Well, for one thing that's not what Dustyelf originally asserted. But since you're not defending that assertion I'll leave it at that. For another thing, while Vivienne very clearly subscribes to the limited view you describe Wynne and Rhys don't. As I understand it they both accept that the two are different kinds of being (even if the truth is a touch more complicated) and willingly accept help from non-demon spirits. I think I even read somewhere that Rhys knows how to call one into the physical world to act as a spy. And then there's Anders. He must have been taught to be a spirit healer in the Ferelden Circle, and while he clearly has only a limited knowledge of spirits and demons (and might have benefited from knowing more than he did) he at least acknowledges that they aren't quite the same thing. But how does any of that mean that a mage can teach a muggle something another muggle can't? A mage has to learn in his youth, and has to be accustomed to learning, but there's nothing stopping a muggle from learning in his youth and being accustomed to learning.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 3, 2017 10:11:45 GMT
To resist demons, yes, not to learn the spirits' nature. The Circle mostly only teaches them to fear from the demons (Vivieene). This is a big difference. Well, for one thing that's not what Dustyelf originally asserted. But since you're not defending that assertion I'll leave it at that. For another thing, while Vivienne very clearly subscribes to the limited view you describe Wynne and Rhys don't. As I understand it they both accept that the two are different kinds of being (even if the truth is a touch more complicated) and willingly accept help from non-demon spirits. I think I even read somewhere that Rhys knows how to call one into the physical world to act as a spy. And then there's Anders. He must have been taught to be a spirit healer in the Ferelden Circle, and while he clearly has only a limited knowledge of spirits and demons (and might have benefited from knowing more than he did) he at least acknowledges that they aren't quite the same thing.But how does any of that mean that a mage can teach a muggle something another muggle can't? A mage has to learn in his youth, and has to be accustomed to learning, but there's nothing stopping a muggle from learning in his youth and being accustomed to learning. Vivienne narrow-minded, Circle-kind. Wynne accepted a spirit, this is why more open-minded. I don't know Rhys story. Anders, before Justice doesn't know about the spirit's nature. Nor even Wynne. The truth is anywhere between the elves, avvars and the Circles' knowledge. This is why would be important to establish an open education system, where they can learn from every culture, not only the traditional Andrastian. The question is not that, why would the mages more suitable to teach people, the question is: why not? The Circle mages, closed in the Circle are wasted manpower.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 4, 2017 9:09:17 GMT
Really? Because I was under the impression that training mages to resist demons properly and control magic was half the point of the Circle.None of that is what I was arguing should be prevented, though. I was arguing that people who want to use mages to commit crimes should be prevented from getting them. That isn't the same as saying that healing and other useful aspects of magic should be limited to those who can in some way compensate the Chantry for them, and in fact I agree that the Chantry should have made those more available. I will grant that I didn't really word my argument in a way that made that clear, though. Although on the other hand, why do people need mage teachers? If the would-be student is a mage themselves, I'd argue they should be in the Circle anyway. If they aren't, then what can the mage teach them that they can't learn from another muggle? I know in DA:O's spiritual predecessor you needed to be a supergenius to be an effective mage, so in that setting there was an actual reason to seek a mage teacher in preference to a muggle, but I didn't think magic worked that way in this setting. The Circle doesn't do a good job in teaching the mages to control their magic and deal with demons who can easily prey upon them. Instead it fills them with fear. A new mage can be put to the harrowing quickly upon entering the circle like Bethany. She was skilled by her father and prepared, a mage who didn't have her advantages may not be so. The Circle also instills fear regarding the harrowing instead teaching the mages to enter into it calmly. Some will still fail but at least they would have been better prepared. A mage being Harrowed is a sign of adulthood. Bethany already was an adult at the time. They couldn't really put it off much longer. I'd imagine that that's half the reason she was Harrowed so quickly, with the other half being that they were quite convinced she'd pass, and that preparing her for the Harrowing the way they do the other mages would be like putting a world-class physicist through freshman year science courses. And why shouldn't the mages be afraid of the Harrowing? Resisting demons is harder when you're off-balance, and honestly the Harrowing shouldn't be easy. It's how the templars decide that a mage can probably handle themselves. You want them to be off-balance for that, because you want to know that they can handle fighting demons while they're off their game. And where do you get the idea that the Circle isn't good at teaching mages to control their magic? You haven't said where you get that impression.I've already answered that. The fact is that a mage being manipulated by a bad person is a far bigger problem than a non-mage being manipulated by a bad person, for the simple reason that the mage is a mage. You can manipulate a non-mage into killing with a crossbow or breaking into a house, but you can't manipulate him into killing ten people at a gesture or breaking into a mind."Why not" doesn't seem like enough of an answer to me. Every mage out working among the general population is a risk. I'd have to be blind not to see that mages can do things that make them worth that risk, but those have to be things that can't be done without taking the risk. Now, maybe that could be something that doesn't require the mage's magical skills, but even in such a case it would have to be something that only that mage can do. I am thinking of how much help that would be. I've already conceded that mage builders can do things that non-mage builders can't, and that the Chantry should have made more use of that than they seem to have. I'm not sure why you felt the need to repeat it. Well, for one thing that's not what Dustyelf originally asserted. But since you're not defending that assertion I'll leave it at that. For another thing, while Vivienne very clearly subscribes to the limited view you describe Wynne and Rhys don't. As I understand it they both accept that the two are different kinds of being (even if the truth is a touch more complicated) and willingly accept help from non-demon spirits. I think I even read somewhere that Rhys knows how to call one into the physical world to act as a spy. And then there's Anders. He must have been taught to be a spirit healer in the Ferelden Circle, and while he clearly has only a limited knowledge of spirits and demons (and might have benefited from knowing more than he did) he at least acknowledges that they aren't quite the same thing.But how does any of that mean that a mage can teach a muggle something another muggle can't? A mage has to learn in his youth, and has to be accustomed to learning, but there's nothing stopping a muggle from learning in his youth and being accustomed to learning. Vivienne narrow-minded, Circle-kind. Wynne accepted a spirit, this is why more open-minded. I don't know Rhys story. Anders, before Justice doesn't know about the spirit's nature. Nor even Wynne. The truth is anywhere between the elves, avvars and the Circles' knowledge. This is why would be important to establish an open education system, where they can learn from every culture, not only the traditional Andrastian. Well, what you originally asserted is that the Circle mostly taught mages to fear demons, not the difference between spirits and demons. This is a step back from that. But moving on to what you're arguing now: what prevents even a closed Circle from working with the Avvar and the elves, if there's actual reason to do so? We know there was at least one Ferelden Circle mage who worked with an Avvar during the Fifth Blight, even if she clearly wasn't there to learn. And how do we actually know that the Avvar and the elves know more than the Circles do about what causes spirits to alter themselves, where they come from, etc? In fact, while we have no reason to believe the Chantry's version of where spirits come from is even based in fact, how do we know they don't know more than the Avvar and the Dalish (though probably not more than the Rivaini Seers) about the rest of it? And what's stopping mages in a closed Circle from learning all of the relevant stuff a Rivaini Seer could teach them with help from the Rivaini Circle (which I'd imagine isn't likely to stop its relationship with the Rivaini Seers even if Divine Victoria threatens an Exalted March?) Well, like I said to dustyelf: any mage outside the Circle is a risk. It's one thing to take a risk to accomplish something that you can't accomplish without the risk, but it's another to take a risk to accomplish something that you could do just as easily without the risk.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 4, 2017 9:40:34 GMT
The Circle doesn't do a good job in teaching the mages to control their magic and deal with demons who can easily prey upon them. Instead it fills them with fear. A new mage can be put to the harrowing quickly upon entering the circle like Bethany. She was skilled by her father and prepared, a mage who didn't have her advantages may not be so. The Circle also instills fear regarding the harrowing instead teaching the mages to enter into it calmly. Some will still fail but at least they would have been better prepared. A mage being Harrowed is a sign of adulthood. Bethany already was an adult at the time. They couldn't really put it off much longer. I'd imagine that that's half the reason she was Harrowed so quickly, with the other half being that they were quite convinced she'd pass, and that preparing her for the Harrowing the way they do the other mages would be like putting a world-class physicist through freshman year science courses. And why shouldn't the mages be afraid of the Harrowing? Resisting demons is harder when you're off-balance, and honestly the Harrowing shouldn't be easy. It's how the templars decide that a mage can probably handle themselves. You want them to be off-balance for that, because you want to know that they can handle fighting demons while they're off their game. And where do you get the idea that the Circle isn't good at teaching mages to control their magic? You haven't said where you get that impression. I've already answered that. The fact is that a mage being manipulated by a bad person is a far bigger problem than a non-mage being manipulated by a bad person, for the simple reason than because the mage is a mage. You can manipulate a non-mage into killing with a crossbow or breaking into a house, but you can't manipulate him into killing ten people at a gesture or breaking into a mind. "Why not" doesn't seem like enough of an answer to me. Every mage out working among the general population is a risk. I'd have to be blind not to see that mages can do things that make them worth that risk, but those have to be things that can't be done without taking the risk. Now, maybe that could be something that doesn't require the mage's magical skills, but even in such a case it would have to be something that only that mage can do.I am thinking of how much help that would be. I've already conceded that mage builders can do things that non-mage builders can't, and that the Chantry should have made more use of that than they seem to have. I'm not sure why you felt the need to repeat it. Vivienne narrow-minded, Circle-kind. Wynne accepted a spirit, this is why more open-minded. I don't know Rhys story. Anders, before Justice doesn't know about the spirit's nature. Nor even Wynne. The truth is anywhere between the elves, avvars and the Circles' knowledge. This is why would be important to establish an open education system, where they can learn from every culture, not only the traditional Andrastian. Well, what you originally asserted is that the Circle mostly taught mages to fear demons, not the difference between spirits and demons. This is a step back from that. But moving on to what you're arguing now: what prevents even a closed Circle from working with the Avvar and the elves, if there's actual reason to do so? We know there was at least one Ferelden Circle mage who worked with an Avvar during the Fifth Blight, even if she clearly wasn't there to learn. And how do we actually know that the Avvar and the elves know more than the Circles do about what causes spirits to alter themselves, where they come from, etc? In fact, while we have no reason to believe the Chantry's version of where spirits come from is even based in fact, how do we know they don't know more than the Avvar and the Dalish (though probably not more than the Rivaini Seers) about the rest of it? And what's stopping mages in a closed Circle from learning all of the relevant stuff a Rivaini Seer could teach them with help from the Rivaini Circle (which I'd imagine isn't likely to stop its relationship with the Rivaini Seers even if Divine Victoria threatens an Exalted March?)Well, like I said to dustyelf: any mage outside the Circle is a risk. It's one thing to take a risk to accomplish something that you can't accomplish without the risk, but it's another to take a risk to accomplish something that you could do just as easily without the risk. 1. Then the manipulativ bad persons must be imprisoned. Impossibe to close every manipulative person? Then sucks. This paranoia even not justified to imprison innocent people, just because s/he can be victim of a bad person. Sick. 2. They do not necessarily know more, rather from a different viewpoint. 3. This is again a very paranoid viewpoint. Dangerous.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 5, 2017 3:04:34 GMT
A mage being Harrowed is a sign of adulthood. Bethany already was an adult at the time. They couldn't really put it off much longer. I'd imagine that that's half the reason she was Harrowed so quickly, with the other half being that they were quite convinced she'd pass, and that preparing her for the Harrowing the way they do the other mages would be like putting a world-class physicist through freshman year science courses.
And why shouldn't the mages be afraid of the Harrowing? Resisting demons is harder when you're off-balance, and honestly the Harrowing shouldn't be easy. It's how the templars decide that a mage can probably handle themselves. You want them to be off-balance for that, because you want to know that they can handle fighting demons while they're off their game.
And where do you get the idea that the Circle isn't good at teaching mages to control their magic? You haven't said where you get that impression. I've already answered that. The fact is that a mage being manipulated by a bad person is a far bigger problem than a non-mage being manipulated by a bad person, for the simple reason than because the mage is a mage. You can manipulate a non-mage into killing with a crossbow or breaking into a house, but you can't manipulate him into killing ten people at a gesture or breaking into a mind. "Why not" doesn't seem like enough of an answer to me. Every mage out working among the general population is a risk. I'd have to be blind not to see that mages can do things that make them worth that risk, but those have to be things that can't be done without taking the risk. Now, maybe that could be something that doesn't require the mage's magical skills, but even in such a case it would have to be something that only that mage can do.I am thinking of how much help that would be. I've already conceded that mage builders can do things that non-mage builders can't, and that the Chantry should have made more use of that than they seem to have. I'm not sure why you felt the need to repeat it. Well, what you originally asserted is that the Circle mostly taught mages to fear demons, not the difference between spirits and demons. This is a step back from that. But moving on to what you're arguing now: what prevents even a closed Circle from working with the Avvar and the elves, if there's actual reason to do so? We know there was at least one Ferelden Circle mage who worked with an Avvar during the Fifth Blight, even if she clearly wasn't there to learn. And how do we actually know that the Avvar and the elves know more than the Circles do about what causes spirits to alter themselves, where they come from, etc? In fact, while we have no reason to believe the Chantry's version of where spirits come from is even based in fact, how do we know they don't know more than the Avvar and the Dalish (though probably not more than the Rivaini Seers) about the rest of it? And what's stopping mages in a closed Circle from learning all of the relevant stuff a Rivaini Seer could teach them with help from the Rivaini Circle (which I'd imagine isn't likely to stop its relationship with the Rivaini Seers even if Divine Victoria threatens an Exalted March?)Well, like I said to dustyelf: any mage outside the Circle is a risk. It's one thing to take a risk to accomplish something that you can't accomplish without the risk, but it's another to take a risk to accomplish something that you could do just as easily without the risk. 1. Then the manipulativ bad persons must be imprisoned. Impossibe to close every manipulative person? Then sucks. This paranoia even not justified to imprison innocent people, just because s/he can be victim of a bad person. Sick. 2. They do not necessarily know more, rather from a different viewpoint. 3. This is again a very paranoid viewpoint. Dangerous. 1: Well, like I've said in past arguments, this isn't enough on its own that I view the Circles as justified. But without getting into that again, this is a better argument in that direction than you and dustyelf seem to think. The mere fact that mages are capable of magic is enough to make them more dangerous than ordinary civilians, and dangerous in ways ordinary civilians simply aren't, even without getting into the other stuff. If that's not a sufficient argument for the Circles, it's far from being an irrelevant one and not really sufficiently answered by saying that anyone can be dangerous. 2: But how sure are we that this different viewpoint is useful? And how are we that sure? The Rivaini Seers seem to be world-experts on this kind of thing, so maybe they know some useful things, but how do we know that the Dalish know anything about spirits other than how to bind them (well, that and that you shouldn't trust any of them, which the Templars already seem to know anyway) and that the Avvar know anything other than how to make deals with them? 3: I can't figure out which part of my post this is meant to answer, so I'm just going to have to ask if what I have under Point 1 is relevant to it. 1.A mage being Harrowed is a sign of adulthood. Bethany already was an adult at the time. They couldn't really put it off much longer. I'd imagine that that's half the reason she was Harrowed so quickly, with the other half being that they were quite convinced she'd pass, and that preparing her for the Harrowing the way they do the other mages would be like putting a world-class physicist through freshman year science courses. 2.And why shouldn't the mages be afraid of the Harrowing? Resisting demons is harder when you're off-balance, and honestly the Harrowing shouldn't be easy. It's how the templars decide that a mage can probably handle themselves. You want them to be off-balance for that, because you want to know that they can handle fighting demons while they're off their game. And where do you get the idea that the Circle isn't good at teaching mages to control their magic? You haven't said where you get that impression.3.I've already answered that. The fact is that a mage being manipulated by a bad person is a far bigger problem than a non-mage being manipulated by a bad person, for the simple reason than because the mage is a mage. You can manipulate a non-mage into killing with a crossbow or breaking into a house, but you can't manipulate him into killing ten people at a gesture or breaking into a mind.4"Why not" doesn't seem like enough of an answer to me. Every mage out working among the general population is a risk. I'd have to be blind not to see that mages can do things that make them worth that risk, but those have to be things that can't be done without taking the risk. Now, maybe that could be something that doesn't require the mage's magical skills, but even in such a case it would have to be something that only that mage can do.I am thinking of how much help that would be. I've already conceded that mage builders can do things that non-mage builders can't, and that the Chantry should have made more use of that than they seem to have. I'm not sure why you felt the need to repeat it. 1. fair enough. 2. yes the harrowing shouldn't be easy but it shouldn't done in a way that the mages are afraid. 3. I would disagree. A manipulative person may be able to persuade others to kill for him. Look at Manson in real life. He held no magical power but his circle did his bidding. 4. I disagree mages are not more of a risk than non mages. I see magic as a gift. 2: Why not? Like I said, keeping the mages afraid makes it a more relevant test. They're going to have to face demons when going through emotional upheaval that makes it harder to fight them. If they're not in such a state while going through the Harrowing, how relevant to such a situation is the Harrowing? 3: I'm not making the argument you just refuted, though. I'm not claiming that non-mages can't be manipulated into killing. I'm claiming that they can't be manipulated into obliterating a small group of people with a gesture, or rifling through someone's mind. 4: You don't think that people who can shoot fireballs are more dangerous than people who can't? If mages being able to abuse their magic for the sake of an immoral group isn't the best argument for the Circles, it's not one that you ought to just skate over, and not one that can be refuted by saying that you don't need to be able to ignore the laws of physics to be useful to bad people. It may be true that a criminal has some use for skilled swordsmen, but he can do things with one primal mage that he can't do with five swordsmen, and one mage with mind powers can do things that swordsmen simply can't.
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Wanted Apostate
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Aug 5, 2017 8:43:10 GMT
1. Then the manipulativ bad persons must be imprisoned. Impossibe to close every manipulative person? Then sucks. This paranoia even not justified to imprison innocent people, just because s/he can be victim of a bad person. Sick. 2. They do not necessarily know more, rather from a different viewpoint. 3. This is again a very paranoid viewpoint. Dangerous. 1: Well, like I've said in past arguments, this isn't enough on its own that I view the Circles as justified. But without getting into that again, this is a better argument in that direction than you and dustyelf seem to think. The mere fact that mages are capable of magic is enough to make them more dangerous than ordinary civilians, and dangerous in ways ordinary civilians simply aren't, even without getting into the other stuff. If that's not a sufficient argument for the Circles, it's far from being an irrelevant one and not really sufficiently answered by saying that anyone can be dangerous. 2: But how sure are we that this different viewpoint is useful? And how are we that sure? The Rivaini Seers seem to be world-experts on this kind of thing, so maybe they know some useful things, but how do we know that the Dalish know anything about spirits other than how to bind them (well, that and that you shouldn't trust any of them, which the Templars already seem to know anyway) and that the Avvar know anything other than how to make deals with them? 3: I can't figure out which part of my post this is meant to answer, so I'm just going to have to ask if what I have under Point 1 is relevant to it. 1. fair enough. 2. yes the harrowing shouldn't be easy but it shouldn't done in a way that the mages are afraid. 3. I would disagree. A manipulative person may be able to persuade others to kill for him. Look at Manson in real life. He held no magical power but his circle did his bidding. 4. I disagree mages are not more of a risk than non mages. I see magic as a gift. 2: Why not? Like I said, keeping the mages afraid makes it a more relevant test. They're going to have to face demons when going through emotional upheaval that makes it harder to fight them. If they're not in such a state while going through the Harrowing, how relevant to such a situation is the Harrowing? 3: I'm not making the argument you just refuted, though. I'm not claiming that non-mages can't be manipulated into killing. I'm claiming that they can't be manipulated into obliterating a small group of people with a gesture, or rifling through someone's mind. 4: You don't think that people who can shoot fireballs are more dangerous than people who can't? If mages being able to abuse their magic for the sake of an immoral group isn't the best argument for the Circles, it's not one that you ought to just skate over, and not one that can be refuted by saying that you don't need to be able to ignore the laws of physics to be useful to bad people. It may be true that a criminal has some use for skilled swordsmen, but he can do things with one primal mage that he can't do with five swordsmen, and one mage with mind powers can do things that swordsmen simply can't. Yes, I'm sure, that studying different methods and knowledge is important.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 7, 2017 1:52:13 GMT
2: Why not? Like I said, keeping the mages afraid makes it a more relevant test. They're going to have to face demons when going through emotional upheaval that makes it harder to fight them. If they're not in such a state while going through the Harrowing, how relevant to such a situation is the Harrowing? 3: I'm not making the argument you just refuted, though. I'm not claiming that non-mages can't be manipulated into killing. I'm claiming that they can't be manipulated into obliterating a small group of people with a gesture, or rifling through someone's mind. 4: You don't think that people who can shoot fireballs are more dangerous than people who can't? If mages being able to abuse their magic for the sake of an immoral group isn't the best argument for the Circles, it's not one that you ought to just skate over, and not one that can be refuted by saying that you don't need to be able to ignore the laws of physics to be useful to bad people. It may be true that a criminal has some use for skilled swordsmen, but he can do things with one primal mage that he can't do with five swordsmen, and one mage with mind powers can do things that swordsmen simply can't. 2. Mages shouldn't be so afraid. All that fear teaches them is when they are in a hostile situation, whatever that may be- their fear overtakes them and they turn to demon world. Not sure that is true that they need to be in an emotional state during the harrowing. When in such an emotional state your ability to reason and use logic is undercut causing you to be too emotional and that's putting the mages at a severe disadvantage. Bethany doesn't seem the overly fearful type. Think her harrowing went much smoother because her father taught her she was in control of herself and her magic at all times and to not give into that fear. I'm not arguing that mages should live in a general state of fear, though. In fact if they are it's probably a problem. What I am arguing is that the Harrowing is less useful if they aren't conditioned to fear it, for exactly the reasons you argue the mage shouldn't fear it. You're right that having low morale gives an advantage to the demon, but the mage is going to have to face demons while they're in a bad emotional state that makes it hard for them to think and to muster their willpower, because demons are an everpresent reality for them. If the Harrowing doesn't show that the mage is capable of fighting while in that state, or that the mage is resistant to entering that state in the first place, what good is it?Yes, a manipulative muggle can do that to some people, if he reads them properly and works slowly and carefully. Given enough time and effort he might even wind up with almost as much control of one particular person as a blood mage can take with one spell. Meanwhile a mage can do what he does to anybody who doesn't have plot armor, whenever he feels like. If non-magical mind control is scary, it's still a dangerous oversimplification to compare it to blood magic. But getting back to the point I was originally arguing, a non-mage manipulator can still use blood magic if he has a blood mage working for him. My original point as far as limiting who can employ magic wasn't that I don't think everyone should benefit from magic, so much as that I don't want that manipulator to be able to find a manipulable mage with the power to control people he can't. Especially since that mage can do a whole lot more that someone who is only dangerous because of his skill as a manipulator can't even come close to emulating. (Though that "whole lot more" is mostly covered under point 4.) But I didn't argue any of that. I didn't argue that mages are inherently evil, or more willing to do harm or use their talents for evil than non-mages, or that mages are more susceptible to group-think than non-mages are, or that mages have weaker minds than non-mages. In fact I don't believe any of that is true. But none of that has to be true of people who can flip off the laws of physics to make them more dangerous than people who can't. The mere fact that they can flip off the laws of physics already does that. That's part of my argument that the Circles and Templars shouldn't be destroyed: that as much as mages want to be like everyone else, they aren't. They have a gift that others don't, that could allow them to use people who don't have that gift (which most people in this setting don't) as they please. That's not why I support the Circles, because that could be handled with less drastic measures if it was the only problem, but "non-mages and mages are the same" is still a dangerous oversimplification for that reason alone. 1: Well, like I've said in past arguments, this isn't enough on its own that I view the Circles as justified. But without getting into that again, this is a better argument in that direction than you and dustyelf seem to think. The mere fact that mages are capable of magic is enough to make them more dangerous than ordinary civilians, and dangerous in ways ordinary civilians simply aren't, even without getting into the other stuff. If that's not a sufficient argument for the Circles, it's far from being an irrelevant one and not really sufficiently answered by saying that anyone can be dangerous. 2: But how sure are we that this different viewpoint is useful? And how are we that sure? The Rivaini Seers seem to be world-experts on this kind of thing, so maybe they know some useful things, but how do we know that the Dalish know anything about spirits other than how to bind them (well, that and that you shouldn't trust any of them, which the Templars already seem to know anyway) and that the Avvar know anything other than how to make deals with them? 3: I can't figure out which part of my post this is meant to answer, so I'm just going to have to ask if what I have under Point 1 is relevant to it.
2: Why not? Like I said, keeping the mages afraid makes it a more relevant test. They're going to have to face demons when going through emotional upheaval that makes it harder to fight them. If they're not in such a state while going through the Harrowing, how relevant to such a situation is the Harrowing?
3: I'm not making the argument you just refuted, though. I'm not claiming that non-mages can't be manipulated into killing. I'm claiming that they can't be manipulated into obliterating a small group of people with a gesture, or rifling through someone's mind.
4: You don't think that people who can shoot fireballs are more dangerous than people who can't? If mages being able to abuse their magic for the sake of an immoral group isn't the best argument for the Circles, it's not one that you ought to just skate over, and not one that can be refuted by saying that you don't need to be able to ignore the laws of physics to be useful to bad people. It may be true that a criminal has some use for skilled swordsmen, but he can do things with one primal mage that he can't do with five swordsmen, and one mage with mind powers can do things that swordsmen simply can't. Yes, I'm sure, that studying different methods and knowledge is important. Well, that I suppose I have to concede. But getting back to a question I asked a while ago: what stops a non-open Circle from doing that? We know the White Circles worked with the Tevinter Circle, and even outright apostates, when the need arose.
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Sifr
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Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Aug 8, 2017 0:23:55 GMT
A mage being Harrowed is a sign of adulthood. Bethany already was an adult at the time. They couldn't really put it off much longer. I'd imagine that that's half the reason she was Harrowed so quickly, with the other half being that they were quite convinced she'd pass, and that preparing her for the Harrowing the way they do the other mages would be like putting a world-class physicist through freshman year science courses. According to her letter in Act 2, the other reason is that because she was an apostate, there was a concern that she might attempt to run. Putting her through the Harrowing meant the Templars could be more certain that Bethany was committed to remain in the Circle and didn't harbour any intentions of leaving. (The Templars might also have discovered her relation to Malcolm Hawke, so were concerned she'd be a flight-risk like her father)
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 8, 2017 3:49:11 GMT
1.I'm not arguing that mages should live in a general state of fear, though. In fact if they are it's probably a problem. What I am arguing is that the Harrowing is less useful if they aren't conditioned to fear it, for exactly the reasons you argue the mage shouldn't fear it. You're right that having low morale gives an advantage to the demon, but the mage is going to have to face demons while they're in a bad emotional state that makes it hard for them to think and to muster their willpower, because demons are an everpresent reality for them. If the Harrowing doesn't show that the mage is capable of fighting while in that state, or that the mage is resistant to entering that state in the first place, what good is it?2.Yes, a manipulative muggle can do that to some people, if he reads them properly and works slowly and carefully. Given enough time and effort he might even wind up with almost as much control of one particular person as a blood mage can take with one spell. Meanwhile a mage can do what he does to anybody who doesn't have plot armor, whenever he feels like. If non-magical mind control is scary, it's still a dangerous oversimplification to compare it to blood magic. But getting back to the point I was originally arguing, a non-mage manipulator can still use blood magic if he has a blood mage working for him. My original point as far as limiting who can employ magic wasn't that I don't think everyone should benefit from magic, so much as that I don't want that manipulator to be able to find a manipulable mage with the power to control people he can't. Especially since that mage can do a whole lot more that someone who is only dangerous because of his skill as a manipulator can't even come close to emulating. (Though that "whole lot more" is mostly covered under point 4.)3.But I didn't argue any of that. I didn't argue that mages are inherently evil, or more willing to do harm or use their talents for evil than non-mages, or that mages are more susceptible to group-think than non-mages are, or that mages have weaker minds than non-mages. In fact I don't believe any of that is true. But none of that has to be true of people who can flip off the laws of physics to make them more dangerous than people who can't. The mere fact that they can flip off the laws of physics already does that. That's part of my argument that the Circles and Templars shouldn't be destroyed: that as much as mages want to be like everyone else, they aren't. They have a gift that others don't, that could allow them to use people who don't have that gift (which most people in this setting don't) as they please. That's not why I support the Circles, because that could be handled with less drastic measures if it was the only problem, but "non-mages and mages are the same" is still a dangerous oversimplification for that reason alone. 1. I think we are coming at it from different perspectives. If I may give an example, in the book Blood Song by Anthony Ryan there is an order of warriors that's duty is to protect the realm. For roughly seven years they are taught the skills and art of war, survival, and tracking. It is harsh. At the end they have a test similar to the Circle's harrowing, it is called the Trial. The brother is to fight to the death 3 hardened criminals/warriors slated for execution. The brothers know this from the first day of entering the order that they more than likely will die if they do not take the order seriously. However what the Order does is breaks the boy down when he arrives then spends the next years building him through strength in order to win the battles and survive. They are taught with these skills you are more powerful and will have all the tools need to win. The mindset is now I have a powerful opponent but I can defeat it because I am strong of mind, skill and strength. This is what I think the Circle is not providing the mages. They are teaching to fear the demons first, that the demons are more powerful and that the mages must be watched at all times or the mage in his weakness will become a demon. Fear is sometimes good, going into a test or an actual situation when you believe to your core you are not powerful to win is a failure from the start. But the mage is taught everything they need. If they weren't people like Bethany would be the only ones to pass. And they're told that what they have is able to give them a fighting chance against demons, to judge by the Journal of the Tranquil codex. True, as the name implies that Codex is the story of a mage who failed, but that seems to be at least as much due to trauma from his upbringing as it is due to anything he encounters in the Circle. And it seems to be in spite of the best efforts of the mage teaching him. The real root cause, though, seems to be that he just wasn't that powerful a mage. As for it not being ideal for the mage to go in with low morale: well, I agree that it's ideal for the mage not to have to face demons with low morale, and that it doesn't help the mage's chances. But the mage is almost certainly going to have to do it eventually. Not necessarily in the Harrowing, but eventually. And since the Harrowing is supposed to show that the mage can handle attempted demonic possession, is the test worth anything if the mage is likely to encounter something worse than the test in the real world? I don't think the different dangers are equal, though. How is someone who can stab another with a sword just as dangerous as someone who can throw fireballs that are more likely to kill and can hit more than one person at once? How is someone who follows the long and hard process cult leaders use, which can fail at any step and which you can stop them from doing to you under most circumstances if you know what's happening, as dangerous as someone who can quickly and effortlessly delve into just about anyone's mind? If the mage can't kill you any more dead, he can kill you just as dead a lot more easily. An evil mage is harder to stop than an evil mundane, though, and a whole lot more efficient. And while I'd argue that the mage's magic is the most dangerous thing about him in most cases, it's worth noting that he could also learn mundane methods of posing a danger to society. A mage capable of killing ten people with one fireball or tossing someone in the air by conjuring a rock in his general direction can also learn to stab one person with a sword, for example. Someone who can light a fire at a distance with a snap of his fingers, and then snap his fingers a second or third or tenth time if the first fire goes out, can still handle a match. Someone who can snake his fingers through someone's mind using magic can still decide to do it the long and hard way, if there's a reason to do so. While I don't agree that these dangers are equal, it's worth pointing out that everything dangerous about a mundane is also dangerous about a mage, and that the converse is not true. But like I said: if this was the only concern, I wouldn't be arguing for the Circles, because it could be handled in other ways. All I'm saying is that if abuse of magic isn't serious enough to tip the scales, it's serious enough that you shouldn't simply dismiss it or try to argue that these abilities don't make a mage any more dangerous than a mundane. Thanks. Same here; this is kinda fun.
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Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 8, 2017 7:31:00 GMT
A mage being Harrowed is a sign of adulthood. Bethany already was an adult at the time. They couldn't really put it off much longer. I'd imagine that that's half the reason she was Harrowed so quickly, with the other half being that they were quite convinced she'd pass, and that preparing her for the Harrowing the way they do the other mages would be like putting a world-class physicist through freshman year science courses. According to her letter in Act 2, the other reason is that because she was an apostate, there was a concern that she might attempt to run. Putting her through the Harrowing meant the Templars could be more certain that Bethany was committed to remain in the Circle and didn't harbour any intentions of leaving. (The Templars might also have discovered her relation to Malcolm Hawke, so were concerned she'd be a flight-risk like her father) Huh. Well, that shows less faith in her and somewhat less concern for her, but it's still an understandable reason.
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