Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA)

Gwydden
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Jan 23, 2020 0:20:35 GMT Gileadan likes this

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Post by Gwydden on Jan 23, 2020 0:20:35 GMT

Jan 22, 2020 20:15:31 GMT Ieldra said:

LOL....as for the rest, let's just say that this path appears to be specifically designed to trigger that aspect I dislike with a passion about D&D-inspired worlds, namely, the link between cosmology and alignment. I usually overlook it because if I don't it destroys my suspension of disbelief, but it's really hard to overlook with a plot like this.

I think the problem is that alignment is a bad system altogether. I'm sure plenty of tabletop groups just ignore it, but for some reason video game adaptations don't afford themselves that luxury. One of my issues with Owlcat's game is how every. Singe. Dialogue. Is. %&$*^#@. Signposted. It's like Paragon/Renegade on steroids.

Iakus
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Jan 23, 2020 0:27:04 GMT

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Post by Iakus on Jan 23, 2020 0:27:04 GMT

Jan 23, 2020 0:20:35 GMT Gwydden said:

Jan 22, 2020 20:15:31 GMT Ieldra said:

LOL....as for the rest, let's just say that this path appears to be specifically designed to trigger that aspect I dislike with a passion about D&D-inspired worlds, namely, the link between cosmology and alignment. I usually overlook it because if I don't it destroys my suspension of disbelief, but it's really hard to overlook with a plot like this.

I think the problem is that alignment is a bad system altogether. I'm sure plenty of tabletop groups just ignore it, but for some reason video game adaptations don't afford themselves that luxury. One of my issues with Owlcat's game is how every. Singe. Dialogue. Is. %&$*^#@. Signposted. It's like Paragon/Renegade on steroids.

Eh, that didn't matter unless you were playing an alignment-restricted class.

Ieldra
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Jan 23, 2020 8:52:19 GMT

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Post by Ieldra on Jan 23, 2020 8:52:19 GMT

Jan 23, 2020 0:04:37 GMT Iakus said:

Jan 22, 2020 20:15:31 GMT Ieldra said:

LOL....as for the rest, let's just say that this path appears to be specifically designed to trigger that aspect I dislike with a passion about D&D-inspired worlds, namely, the link between cosmology and alignment. I usually overlook it because if I don't it destroys my suspension of disbelief, but it's really hard to overlook with a plot like this.

Well, when one gets down to it, if something seems hell-bent (har-har) on your destruction, does it really matter what its alignment is?

One could as easily say demons are insane as evil, given they tend to resemble the darker interpretations of The Joker.

Yes, fighting the war is necessary for survival, no matter the motivation of the enemy, and of course that's an acceptable plot. However, as soon as you stop fighting and actually think about why this all happens, why they are doing this, what the motivation and the nature of your enemy is - all things you would naturally consider in that situation, and without which the whole story would reduce to a mindless sequence of battle scenes - you're plunged into a philosophical manure pool.

You can try to treat this as an alien invasion - it actually is one, if you consider it without the philosophical bullshit. But again, the same questions arise, and lead to the same nonsensical answers.

"A man can be himself only so long as he is alone; and if he does not love solitude, he will not love freedom; for it is only when he is alone that he is really free." -- Arthur Schopenhauer
Ignorance is bold, and knowledge is reserved -- Thucydides
I'd rather have questions that can't be answered, than answers that can't be questioned -- Richard Feynman

Ieldra
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Jan 23, 2020 9:13:37 GMT

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Post by Ieldra on Jan 23, 2020 9:13:37 GMT

Jan 23, 2020 0:20:35 GMT Gwydden said:

Jan 22, 2020 20:15:31 GMT Ieldra said:

LOL....as for the rest, let's just say that this path appears to be specifically designed to trigger that aspect I dislike with a passion about D&D-inspired worlds, namely, the link between cosmology and alignment. I usually overlook it because if I don't it destroys my suspension of disbelief, but it's really hard to overlook with a plot like this.

I think the problem is that alignment is a bad system altogether. I'm sure plenty of tabletop groups just ignore it, but for some reason video game adaptations don't afford themselves that luxury. One of my issues with Owlcat's game is how every. Singe. Dialogue. Is. %&$*^#@. Signposted. It's like Paragon/Renegade on steroids.

I don't quite agree. I see a character's alignment as a shorthand for certain ideological positions, and if you treat it as descriptive rather than prescriptive - i.e. your alignment describes in a short way some important attitudes that influence your behaviour - then it can have a constructive role in roleplaying. It can also act as a guideline if you play characters who don't come naturally to you. Having said that, some alignments are less plausible than others.

The problem with D&D-inspired worlds is that they treat it as more than that. In characters, it's treated as a trait rather than a descriptor, which is nonsense. The worst, however, is the cosmology. IMO it is hard to find an idea more nonsensical than that the universe is shaped after human notions of morality, and the more intricately the world parallels them, the more nonsensical it becomes. In such worlds I always feel like I'm in a simulation (or more precisely, since I actually am in a simulation, that my character, too, is in a simulation), as opposed to something I could accept as preliminarily real on some level, even if only for the playing session.

Last Edit: Jan 23, 2020 9:14:59 GMT by Ieldra

"A man can be himself only so long as he is alone; and if he does not love solitude, he will not love freedom; for it is only when he is alone that he is really free." -- Arthur Schopenhauer
Ignorance is bold, and knowledge is reserved -- Thucydides
I'd rather have questions that can't be answered, than answers that can't be questioned -- Richard Feynman

Iakus
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Jan 23, 2020 18:48:14 GMT Ieldra likes this

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Post by Iakus on Jan 23, 2020 18:48:14 GMT

Jan 23, 2020 8:52:19 GMT Ieldra said:

Jan 23, 2020 0:04:37 GMT Iakus said:

Well, when one gets down to it, if something seems hell-bent (har-har) on your destruction, does it really matter what its alignment is?

One could as easily say demons are insane as evil, given they tend to resemble the darker interpretations of The Joker.

Yes, fighting the war is necessary for survival, no matter the motivation of the enemy, and of course that's an acceptable plot. However, as soon as you stop fighting and actually think about why this all happens, why they are doing this, what the motivation and the nature of your enemy is - all things you would naturally consider in that situation, and without which the whole story would reduce to a mindless sequence of battle scenes - you're plunged into a philosophical manure pool.

You can try to treat this as an alien invasion - it actually is one, if you consider it without the philosophical bullshit. But again, the same questions arise, and lead to the same nonsensical answers.

Hmm, I wasn't thinking alien invasion (though that is an accurate description) so much as a Cthulhuesque antagonist. Creatures who's minds are so different and inimical to humanoid life that they are fundamentally incompatible with each other.

I mean even Kingmaker's connection to the First World had something like it. Though fey creatures and the material plane aren't totally anathema to it, there were things about mortals that the fey simply didn't understand and vice versa.

Last Edit: Jan 23, 2020 18:48:28 GMT by Iakus

Kymira
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Jan 23, 2020 19:31:24 GMT Liadan likes this

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Post by Kymira on Jan 23, 2020 19:31:24 GMT

[/a]

Last Edit: Jan 23, 2020 19:31:48 GMT by Kymira

Iakus
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Jan 23, 2020 20:05:42 GMT

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Post by Iakus on Jan 23, 2020 20:05:42 GMT

Interesting. Dhampir were considered as a playable race in Kingmaker, but tieflings beat them in the poll, think.

Ieldra
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Jan 23, 2020 20:20:06 GMT

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Post by Ieldra on Jan 23, 2020 20:20:06 GMT

Jan 23, 2020 18:48:14 GMT Iakus said:

Jan 23, 2020 8:52:19 GMT Ieldra said:

Yes, fighting the war is necessary for survival, no matter the motivation of the enemy, and of course that's an acceptable plot. However, as soon as you stop fighting and actually think about why this all happens, why they are doing this, what the motivation and the nature of your enemy is - all things you would naturally consider in that situation, and without which the whole story would reduce to a mindless sequence of battle scenes - you're plunged into a philosophical manure pool.

You can try to treat this as an alien invasion - it actually is one, if you consider it without the philosophical bullshit. But again, the same questions arise, and lead to the same nonsensical answers.

Hmm, I wasn't thinking alien invasion (though that is an accurate description) so much as a Cthulhuesque antagonist. Creatures who's minds are so different and inimical to humanoid life that they are fundamentally incompatible with each other.

I mean even Kingmaker's connection to the First World had something like it. Though fey creatures and the material plane aren't totally anathema to it, there were things about mortals that the fey simply didn't understand and vice versa.

Treating the demons as Cthulhuesque entities would also work. Although.... you'd have to treat all the in-world information about them as nonsensical rationalizations, a completely inappropriate imposition of humanoid cultures' terms on the unknown. Quite a mental challenge to do that while playing, even while from the player perspective, this is actually what anthropomorphizing the universe is.

Last Edit: Jan 23, 2020 20:22:51 GMT by Ieldra

"A man can be himself only so long as he is alone; and if he does not love solitude, he will not love freedom; for it is only when he is alone that he is really free." -- Arthur Schopenhauer
Ignorance is bold, and knowledge is reserved -- Thucydides
I'd rather have questions that can't be answered, than answers that can't be questioned -- Richard Feynman

azarhal
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Jan 23, 2020 20:35:30 GMT Iakus and dazk like this

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Post by azarhal on Jan 23, 2020 20:35:30 GMT

Jan 23, 2020 20:05:42 GMT Iakus said:

Interesting. Dhampir were considered as a playable race in Kingmaker, but tieflings beat them in the poll, think.

Aasamir won that poll, Dhampir finished 3rd.

And I never understood people's fascination in being the natural offspring of a vampire. I suspect it's just a bunch of people who wants to roleplay Alucard.

Last Edit: Jan 23, 2020 20:36:18 GMT by azarhal

Iakus
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Jan 23, 2020 22:44:10 GMT azarhal likes this

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Post by Iakus on Jan 23, 2020 22:44:10 GMT

Jan 23, 2020 20:35:30 GMT azarhal said:

Jan 23, 2020 20:05:42 GMT Iakus said:

Interesting. Dhampir were considered as a playable race in Kingmaker, but tieflings beat them in the poll, think.

Aasamir won that poll, Dhampir finished 3rd.

And I never understood people's fascination in being the natural offspring of a vampire. I suspect it's just a bunch of people who wants to roleplay Alucard.

I was thinking more Magiere from Saga of the Noble Dead

But I've never been a huge Castlevania fan

Iakus
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Jan 23, 2020 22:49:25 GMT

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Post by Iakus on Jan 23, 2020 22:49:25 GMT

Jan 23, 2020 20:20:06 GMT Ieldra said:

Jan 23, 2020 18:48:14 GMT Iakus said:

Hmm, I wasn't thinking alien invasion (though that is an accurate description) so much as a Cthulhuesque antagonist. Creatures who's minds are so different and inimical to humanoid life that they are fundamentally incompatible with each other.

I mean even Kingmaker's connection to the First World had something like it. Though fey creatures and the material plane aren't totally anathema to it, there were things about mortals that the fey simply didn't understand and vice versa.

Treating the demons as Cthulhuesque entities would also work. Although.... you'd have to treat all the in-world information about them as nonsensical rationalizations, a completely inappropriate imposition of humanoid cultures' terms on the unknown. Quite a mental challenge to do that while playing, even while from the player perspective, this is actually what anthropomorphizing the universe is.

I guess it depends on how skeptical one can be of what is "common knowledge" about demons. And about how they are presented in Golarion to begin with. If we can, in fact, play demon lords off each other, that indicates they are not a monolithic force with a singular purpose, despite being ultimately destructive to the world in general.

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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Jan 29, 2020 11:49:40 GMT

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Post by Ieldra on Jan 29, 2020 11:49:40 GMT

Does anyone know what triggers the options to make masterpieces in the conversations with the artisans in Pathfinder:Kingmaker? In one of my earlier games, I managed to get all ten of them. In my current game, I only got three. In both cases, I did all their quests and built all their shops as soon as they became available.

Also, I never managed to get the "Survivor" achievement. This requires resolving 100 random encounters in one playthrough. The thing is, I never get that many. In my last two games, I never avoided a single random encounter but ended up with 96 and 90 respectively, and I'm pretty sure I walked every road at least once in both cases, I also avoided the kingdom upgrade that removes random encounters in claimed regions until I was ready to start the endgame. Is there some trick to this?

"A man can be himself only so long as he is alone; and if he does not love solitude, he will not love freedom; for it is only when he is alone that he is really free." -- Arthur Schopenhauer
Ignorance is bold, and knowledge is reserved -- Thucydides
I'd rather have questions that can't be answered, than answers that can't be questioned -- Richard Feynman

Kymira
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Jan 30, 2020 21:05:43 GMT

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Post by Kymira on Jan 30, 2020 21:05:43 GMT

Onecrazymonkey1
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Jan 31, 2020 1:18:13 GMT Ieldra likes this

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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Jan 31, 2020 1:18:13 GMT

Jan 29, 2020 11:49:40 GMT Ieldra said:

Does anyone know what triggers the options to make masterpieces in the conversations with the artisans in Pathfinder:Kingmaker? In one of my earlier games, I managed to get all ten of them. In my current game, I only got three. In both cases, I did all their quests and built all their shops as soon as they became available.

After I deleted my first game because of a poor start, I re-played through pathfinder once. My memory is foggy and can't remember how many I got, I wasn't sure what triggered them.

But I found this video, hopefully it's helpful for you.

Last Edit: Jan 31, 2020 1:26:49 GMT by Onecrazymonkey1

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Kymira
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Feb 4, 2020 17:15:31 GMT Iakus and azarhal like this

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Post by Kymira on Feb 4, 2020 17:15:31 GMT

Kickstarter is live.

Iakus
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Feb 4, 2020 17:31:55 GMT

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Post by Iakus on Feb 4, 2020 17:31:55 GMT

Replaying Kingmaker, and I forgot how big a pita it is to get to the "Hero's Reward" location while traveling alone. Keep running into trolls...

azarhal
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Feb 4, 2020 17:35:25 GMT

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Post by azarhal on Feb 4, 2020 17:35:25 GMT

So going by the stuff written on the KS presentation:
- mythic paths are alignment based (Azata are chaotic good, Lich are lawful evil, Demon are chaotic evil, Aeon are neutral, Angel are lawful good).
- 21 classes with 5 archetypes (Kingmaker had 16 classes with 3 archetypes). New classes: Arcanist, Bloodrager, Shaman, Oracle, and Witch.

Meh to them making Wrath all about managing an army when that's not part of the adventure path just to please gaming reviewers. Also, the story is very linear and here they are claiming it's a none-linear story. I get the feeling it won't have much in common with the AP outside character name (Kingmaker was very on point with the adventure path except for chapter 4 which only had the start and end of it).

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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Feb 4, 2020 17:37:20 GMT Kymira likes this

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Post by Iakus on Feb 4, 2020 17:37:20 GMT

Hmm, the Aeon looks interesting with its time-travel capabilities.

I wonder what the Legend gets for staying mortal?

Last Edit: Feb 4, 2020 17:52:16 GMT by Iakus

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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Feb 5, 2020 0:18:04 GMT Liadan likes this

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Post by Iakus on Feb 5, 2020 0:18:04 GMT

Kymira
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Feb 5, 2020 2:42:57 GMT Liadan likes this

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Post by Kymira on Feb 5, 2020 2:42:57 GMT

azarhal
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Feb 5, 2020 12:51:29 GMT Onecrazymonkey1, Liadan, and 2 more like this

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Post by azarhal on Feb 5, 2020 12:51:29 GMT

They already hit their funding goal...in 10 hours. :ph34r:

Also, giveme that Warpriest!

Iakus
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Feb 5, 2020 22:06:44 GMT Kymira and azarhal like this

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Post by Iakus on Feb 5, 2020 22:06:44 GMT

Feb 5, 2020 12:51:29 GMT azarhal said:

They already hit their funding goal...in 10 hours. :ph34r:

Also, giveme that Warpriest!

Warpriest is in.

Next stretch goal: New companion!

azarhal
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Feb 5, 2020 22:30:27 GMT dazk likes this

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Post by azarhal on Feb 5, 2020 22:30:27 GMT

Feb 5, 2020 22:06:44 GMT Iakus said:

Feb 5, 2020 12:51:29 GMT azarhal said:

They already hit their funding goal...in 10 hours. :ph34r:

Also, giveme that Warpriest!

Warpriest is in.

Woot!

I love Warpriest.

Andraste_Reborn
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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Feb 6, 2020 7:01:34 GMT Kymira and azarhal like this

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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Feb 6, 2020 7:01:34 GMT

Dhampir bones shaman lich here I come, awwwww yeah!

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Pathfinder CRPG (not to be mixed up with MEA) Feb 6, 2020 8:53:34 GMT

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Post by Gileadan on Feb 6, 2020 8:53:34 GMT

Ah yes, alignment...

Real men are Lawful Good.
Real roleplayers don't use alignment.
Loonies are Amoral Silly.
Munchkins are whatever gives the most plusses.

From "Real men, real roleplayers, loonies and munchkins".

That said, I got the Imperial Edition with a 60% discount from GOG, so here I go! ...as soon as I've figured out what kind of character I want... brb.

"Give me a fully loaded Hornet and I'll shake the gates of heaven." -Aria Reilly

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