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Post by Walter Black on Jun 6, 2017 16:15:56 GMT
I don't know if anyone previously made a poll on this, so apologies if this has been done. Obviously in a perfect world, every Bioware games would have more than enough Love Interests for everyone. But since these games have limited resources, they can only go one of two ways with romanceable NPCs. Which is your preferred?
Playersexual (4 romances, 2 males and 2 females)
Pros:
- Everyone gets a shot at the romanceable characters.
- More likely to be plot critical.
-Unless specifically stated to be bi or pan, the player can headcannon that the character fits their own orientation.
Cons:
- Characters who could have been LIs with set orientations are not available.
-Zero representation for purely homosexual characters.
- Having the character focus primarily on the player, with little to no interests outside them, can reek of player entitlement and be immersion breaking.
Set sexualities (6 romances, 2 straight, 1 gay male, 1 lesbian, 2 bi)
Pros:
- More likely to include representation for a broader spectrum of orientations, races and personalities.
- Role players who don't mind playing characters outside their own orientation have more options.
- Even when denied a character they wanted, some players can respect internal reality of Companions having their own personalities and desires.
Cons:
-Greater chance that players who want to romance a certain Companion as their own orientation will be disappointed,
- Less likely to be plot critical.
-Other players would argue fantasy does not have to be realistic, in the physical or emotional sense, and see no justifiable reason the character was written to not include them.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 6, 2017 16:32:02 GMT
I can't remember a poll but It's certainly been discussed. The topic didn't always end well, so I hope this one does as it is an interesting one.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 16:36:57 GMT
I am not sure how set sexuality is conductive to broader spectrum of races/personalities? Playersexual helps with that far more, because you don't have to provide each race in every sexuality type to represent it, so you are likely to be able to experience a romance.
For me getting to romance a companion I would like to, while playing the PC I like in the same PT and plot-involvement way outway any perceived benefits of feeling special. Each and every PT of Origins/Inquisition end up with compromises because of the romantic gates. I would have finished way more of them if they were all like DA2. I am so tired of feeling envious of female elves in Inquisition, and of human nobles in Origins.
i am perfectly happy to play outside my own gender and sexuality, but I want to chose my pc race and gender because I LOVE it, not because the only char I want to romance would romance him or her. And I tend to fall in love with one and only one companion per game, so it really limits my RP I'd s/he is gated.
i want an ideal PT, and as a player, I feel my needs/tastes as a player are ignored when romances are gated. I mean, as a female Qunari, I might as well have zero options in Inquisition as a player.
I will I'll be the happiest if the player romances are bisexual, as all my fav romances -Anders, Reyes and Thane - were either bisexual or written as bi, then changed to straight. Dorian is the only non bi romance I really loved, but I would have loved him just as much as he were bi.
also, with specific sexuality romances you get a lot of short ones, instead of fewer longer ones, and I'd rather get fewer longer ones.
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Post by shechinah on Jun 6, 2017 16:49:27 GMT
I am not sure how set sexuality is conductive to broader spectrum of races/personalities? Playersexual helps with that far more, because you don't have to provide each race in every sexuality type to represent it, so you are likely to be able to experience a romance. Anders is an example of a downside to playersexuality as he'll leave out the romantic aspect of his relationship with Karl if the dialogue is with a female Hawke. He will not do this in dialogue with a male Hawke and there, he'll also state that he sees nothing wrong with finding love with someone who is similar to himself in response to Hawke being taken back by the idea of him being with Karl. Basically, a part of Anders' history and arguably characterization is removed to maintain playersexuality. Dorian is an example of an upside to set sexuality. While some people dislike it, I feel the conflict between Dorian and his father provides a very interesting insight into how much emphasis is placed on bloodlines in the Tevinter Imperium. This is especially demonstrated by just how much Dorian's father is willing to risk and resort to in order to secure a heir from Dorian. While this conflict could still exist if Dorian was not gay and his sexuality is only a part of his refusal to do as expected, it also provides an insight into a part of Tevinter culture like homosexuality requiring discretion and expected to be brief flings if anything or be sated on slaves.
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Post by raikas on Jun 6, 2017 16:59:34 GMT
Ideally I'd say neither (or a combination of the two, depending on whether you consider playersexual and bisexual to be different categories).
I think it would make sense to see any plot-relevant romanceable characters be bisexual (and specifically so like Isabela or Anders rather than the generic Skyrim/Fallout4 style of playersexual) and then have optional side characters be exclusively straight or gay (or bi as well).
Personally, I'm not bothered by doing multiple playthroughs of a decent game, and I'm not wedded to playing a set gender or orientation, but I know some people have strong preferences for gender (of character and/or romance) and/or don't have time for more than one playthrough, so keeping any important (in the Morrigan/Anders style) characters open to everyone seems like the most equitable option. And having them be bi rather than playersexual works out better for people who like to have a set characterization for the NPCs.
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Post by shechinah on Jun 6, 2017 17:04:03 GMT
While I understand the appeal of playersexuality, I am not interested in seeing its return. I prefer set orientations because I think it allows for characterization to be the firemost thing. I feel playersexuality skirts too close to love interest first, character second for my taste. It's a bit of a short explanation admittedly but hopefully my above post can be seen as providing examples of why I feel this is.
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Post by normandy on Jun 6, 2017 17:13:14 GMT
I prefer playersexual characters. More choices is always better.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 17:16:47 GMT
I am not sure how set sexuality is conductive to broader spectrum of races/personalities? Playersexual helps with that far more, because you don't have to provide each race in every sexuality type to represent it, so you are likely to be able to experience a romance. Anders is an example of a downside to playersexuality as he'll leave out the romantic aspect of his relationship with Karl if the dialogue is with a female Hawke. He will not do this in dialogue with a male Hawke and there, he'll also state that he sees nothing wrong with finding love with someone who is similar to himself in response to Hawke being taken back by the idea of him being with Karl. Basically, a part of Anders' history and arguably characterization is removed to maintain playersexuality. Dorian is an example of an upside to set sexuality. While some people dislike it, I feel the conflict between Dorian and his father provides a very interesting insight into how much emphasis is placed on bloodlines in the Tevinter Imperium. This is especially demonstrated by just how much Dorian's father is willing to risk and resort to in order to secure a heir from Dorian. While this conflict could still exist if Dorian was not gay and his sexuality is only a part of his refusal to do as expected, it also provides an insight into a part of Tevinter culture like homosexuality requiring discretion and expected to be brief flings if anything or be sated on slaves. The was no reason to exclude Karl for a female PC, and Dorian's objections towards bloodline purity and living in the lap of luxury while despising one another is based as much as of his seeing his parents, as his disinterest in females. His rebellion is not for the sake of a lover of significance in his life, but against being forced to repeat his father's mistake, and his father being the one who forces him too. Any arranged marriage at all, even if it were to a man of a suitable family, would be just as objectionable to him.
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Post by Walter Black on Jun 6, 2017 17:24:07 GMT
Anders is an example of a downside to playersexuality as he'll leave out the romantic aspect of his relationship with Karl if the dialogue is with a female Hawke. He will not do this in dialogue with a male Hawke and there, he'll also state that he sees nothing wrong with finding love with someone who is similar to himself in response to Hawke being taken back by the idea of him being with Karl. Basically, a part of Anders' history and arguably characterization is removed to maintain playersexuality. Dorian is an example of an upside to set sexuality. While some people dislike it, I feel the conflict between Dorian and his father provides a very interesting insight into how much emphasis is placed on bloodlines in the Tevinter Imperium. This is especially demonstrated by just how much Dorian's father is willing to risk and resort to in order to secure a heir from Dorian. While this conflict could still exist if Dorian was not gay and his sexuality is only a part of his refusal to do as expected, it also provides an insight into a part of Tevinter culture like homosexuality requiring discretion and expected to be brief flings if anything or be sated on slaves. The was no reason to exclude Karl for a female PC, and Dorian's objections towards bloodline purity and living in the lap of luxury while despising one another is based as much as of his seeing his parents, as his disinterest in females. His rebellion is not for the sake of a lover of significance in his life, but against being forced to repeat his father's mistake, and his father being the one who forces him too. Any arranged marriage at all, even if it were to a man of a suitable family, would be just as objectionable to him. All the reasons you mention are perfectly valid to explain Dorian's Personal Quest if he were straight or bi. However, at least one person stated that it wasn't enough and that he had to be gay, David Gaider .
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Post by shechinah on Jun 6, 2017 17:25:39 GMT
The was no reason to exclude Karl for a female PC, and Dorian's objections towards bloodline purity and living in the lap of luxury while despising one another is based as much as of his seeing his parents, as his disinterest in females. His rebellion is not for the sake of a lover of significance in his life, but against being forced to repeat his father's mistake, and his father being the one who forces him too. Any arranged marriage at all, even if it were to a man of a suitable family, would be just as objectionable to him. I think you may have missed how in my post, I noted that Dorian's sexuality was only a part of his refusal and that his refusal could still exist even if Dorian was not gay. I also noted that his set sexuality provided an insight into how homosexuality was perceived in the Tevinter Imperium. I've previously in other threads on the old forum listed the same reason as you have for why his refusal is not orientation-specific.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 6, 2017 17:35:29 GMT
Playersexual (in a meta sense, not "everyone is literally bi") is better in every way, provided it's viewed from the proper angle, namely each playthrough = separate universe. Previous implementations may have been lacking but that says nothing about the core concept.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 6, 2017 17:38:15 GMT
On one hand, I like the representation of more LGBT people, on another hand, therefore there was some disappointment (especially in MEA, Gil's romance, but I didn't like Dorian's stereotypically witty-peacock style and his backstory), and my favorite romances (Anders, Fenris, Kaidan, Reyes) were all bisexual (not "playersexual"), with not really good presentation.
Zevran was bisexual, but he speaks about that his preference toward women, and he exploit every time to flirting with female companions. True, he speak about his bisexuality openly. Anders never came out to a female character. Fenris was bisexual, and according to Gaider he was made for male!Hawke primarily, but he also doesn't speak about his sexuality to fem!Hawke, and possible he go to bed with Isabela. Bull's BDSM-story quite divisive. Kaidan similar than Anders in many aspects. Reyes is good, but the animators, for example, paid less attention for Scott, than Sara (later this was fixed). (And I didn't speak about PeeBee's sex scene animation with Sara.)
And: gay men got only one plot-wise character (true, this was pretty good), and lesbian women only got a half-plot wise character: Isabela, also in DA2.
UPDATE: I voted: Set orientation.
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Post by dgcatanisiri on Jun 6, 2017 17:38:34 GMT
I HATE the term playersexual. It's a mealy-mouthed way of getting around things - even the DA2 writers eventually settled on saying the romances were bisexual after they talked about them being 'playersexual' before. Make the characters bisexual and commit to it - have them, regardless of PC gender, remark on the appearance of men and women. Have them talk about prior relationships with men and women (and not just the female characters). Let them acknowledge their bisexuality.
Anyway, my view is that I would much rather see four bisexual romances than this mishmash of sexualities for the time being. One, I think that smaller cast sizes are a better choice all around, give the characters more plot relevance and story connections, because you have a smaller group to choose from and accompany you. I find that in Origins and Inquisition, it's easy for characters to get lost in the shuffle because there are so many characters competing for the spotlight. Two, in terms of representation, LGBT characters are STARVING for more nuanced characterizations, characters who aren't just getting the 'queer' story, stories that only affect them because of their sexuality - Dorian and Gil both have these stories, stories that make their gayness their defining trait, because they would not play out the same if they were straight. So characters who, even if they're not the 'traditional' queer characters, are bisexual, are attracted to the same sex, would be a step towards unskewing that gap, because you'd see them having stories that don't hinge on their sexualities. Additionally, a problem on the writing end is this consistent statement of 'this character being gay didn't seem to fit.' That is, quite frankly, an excuse, because sexuality doesn't have to 'make sense,' it is - routinely, this comes across as 'this character didn't match my preconceived notions of what gay people are like, therefore they are not romanceable by the same sex.'
Like, I've made reference to the BioWare Bad Boy Bisexual (Patent Pending) on occasion, and the reason I have is that this is a recurring characterization, the charming flirts-with-anything-that-moves male character with some element of shadiness to them - Zevran, Iron Bull, Reyes, and, despite being gay, Dorian's personality fits as well. This is a well that BioWare has consistently tapped. Requiring them to expand their horizons, that if they want to have their Prince Charming characters like Alistair or Cullen, they have to be bisexual, they have to be available for a male PC as well, would open up the field, because now there are NEW characterizations for bisexual characters out there, ones that I guarantee will resonate with the audience as much if not more, BECAUSE they have been absent so much of them.
Now. I say 'for the time being' because at some point, sure, I could see the pendulum swinging - I do acknowledge that there is a problem in not having gay/lesbian representation. HOWEVER, I think that it's important to push the writers out of this particular comfort zone, open up the field in terms of what queer representation we can see. Because it is a serious challenge right now to get these explicitly queer characters who do not have stories that hinge on their sexualities, at least on the male side. On the female side, they so easily turn to fetishization, which is another issue entirely, BUT... BioWare's female bisexuals have pretty consistently been very femme. Somehow, they have turned 'short-haired warrior woman' into a stereotype for STRAIGHT characters. Jack, Cassandra, Cora, Ashley... Because of some concept of how 'it's defying stereotypes!' they have yet to have a woman who presents as butch as a female love interest. So there's a need for change on both sides of the gender divide here.
I think that challenging the writers to stretch, to see these characters as bisexual, as attracted to the same sex, despite their ideas of what 'makes' a person gay, is the important part here, because if we expand those perspectives, it will be helpful in future writings of non-straight characters, be they bi, pan, gay, ace, whatever. But unless they're pushed, they're not going to.
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Post by shechinah on Jun 6, 2017 17:53:26 GMT
The was no reason to exclude Karl for a female PC I should probably have clarified this in my post but I consider there to be two forms of playersexuality: playersexuality and "bisexuality". The Dragon II crew with the exception of Isabella fall into the former category. The romantic aspect of Anders' relationship with Karl is excluded for this reason: Anders is gay when romanced by male Hawke and straight when romanced by female Hawke therefore content that suggest otherwise is removed to maintain playersexuality. This is a form for playersexuality wherein the sexuality of the romanced character is decided by which gender the player character is. To put it simply: playersexuality as in the player's sexuality. The other form for playersexuality is "bisexuality" in which every romanceable character is avaliable regardless of the player's gender. I don't like to refer to this as bisexuality, hence the inverted commas, because I don't consider it to really be bisexuality: I see it as just a different way of making the character's sexuality correspond to the player's therefore it's still playersexuality as far as I'm concerned. This is based on my memory so bear that in mind: Pre-release, the Dragon Age II crew were said to be playersexual but post-release, the Dragon Age II crew were said to be bisexual. I believe it was changed in response to criticism in regards to how it was handled. Dragon Age II was rushed and the developers have stated previously, as far as I can recall, that playersexuality is cheaper on the resources. I think David Gaider has stated that either the development team or him dislike playersexuality.
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Post by KalleDemos on Jun 6, 2017 17:55:20 GMT
While I enjoyed DA2 Romances I am against the implementation of playersexual romances (BTW all DA2 Romance options with the exception of Sebastian are canonically Bisexual). I would gladly sacrifice the chance to romance any character I wanted with my identifying gender if that meant the various sexualities were meaningfully represented in the game.
Even in a fictional world where every gender and sexuality was treated equally a gay woman, a bisexual woman and a straight woman would have three completely different life experiences. Playersexuality erases our unique experience in favor of a blank slate.
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Post by phoray on Jun 6, 2017 17:55:55 GMT
I'm a bit torn. I like both?
My main concern is not to give so many romance options that the quality of each goes down. Adromeda gave sex scenes to only the more story important characters and that is BS.
Leave the random encounters for Origins Isabella, Zevran DA2 and a proper whore house, please and thank you. <- AS in, if the romance doesn't get proper scenes, it may as well be a random encounter and insults the idea of "romance" applied to it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 18:00:52 GMT
The was no reason to exclude Karl for a female PC, and Dorian's objections towards bloodline purity and living in the lap of luxury while despising one another is based as much as of his seeing his parents, as his disinterest in females. His rebellion is not for the sake of a lover of significance in his life, but against being forced to repeat his father's mistake, and his father being the one who forces him too. Any arranged marriage at all, even if it were to a man of a suitable family, would be just as objectionable to him. All the reasons you mention are perfectly valid to explain Dorian's Personal Quest if he were straight or bi. However, at least one person stated that it wasn't enough and that he had to be gay, David Gaider . What I see is that if I play a male, of ANY race, I get to chose between TWO plot important characters, Dorian and Cassandra. But if I play a female, my only chance to even dream of a plot-important character is to play only ONE race, an Elf. That would have not happened if all three, Solas, Dorian and Cassandra were bi like in DA2 and had their cutscenes made for all races. and that is what I want, roll a Qunari female that I would love to play and romance a cool character that is available to everyone, and is deeply involved in the plot.
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Post by raikas on Jun 6, 2017 18:10:26 GMT
The romantic aspect of Anders' relationship with Karl is excluded for this reason: Anders is gay when romanced by male Hawke and straight when romanced by female Hawke therefore content that suggest otherwise is removed to maintain playersexuality. Anders isn't gay when romanced by male Hawke: he still has the banter with Isabela about doing "the thing with the lightening" at the Pearl.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 18:18:07 GMT
As long as the romance options are good, I'm ok with both. But nearly all of them should be good not like MEA where only 2 or 3 romances are worth doing and some get more scenes than the others
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Post by shechinah on Jun 6, 2017 18:19:25 GMT
What I see is that if I play a male, of ANY race, I get to chose between TWO plot important characters, Dorian and Cassandra. But if I play a female, my only chance to even dream of a plot-important character is to play only ONE race, an Elf. That would have not happened if all three, Solas, Dorian and Cassandra were bi like in DA2. and that is what I want, roll a Qunari female that I would love to play and romance a cool character that is available to everyone, and is deeply involved in the plot. The thing about Solas' romance is that it is interwoven with elements of the elven race especially concerning the Dalish like language and perceptions of Dalish religion, history and such. This can be seen if you look through a compilation of scenes from the Solas romance. Adding other races would mean you couldn't have those elements because if you did, those aspects would not make much sense. Solas' romance is one of the cases where the gate for races makes sense not just on the background of the romance content but on the background of the character. Removing that gate would, in my opinion, negatively impact the romance and require a cheapening of its content to make it accommodate the other races.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 18:19:53 GMT
The was no reason to exclude Karl for a female PC I should probably have clarified this in my post but I consider there to be two forms of playersexuality: playersexuality and "bisexuality". The Dragon II crew with the exception of Isabella fall into the former category. The romantic aspect of Anders' relationship with Karl is excluded for this reason: Anders is gay when romanced by male Hawke and straight when romanced by female Hawke therefore content that suggest otherwise is removed to maintain playersexuality. This is a form for playersexuality wherein the sexuality of the romanced character is decided by which gender the player character is. To put it simply: playersexuality as in the player's sexuality. The other form for playersexuality is "bisexuality" in which every romanceable character is avaliable regardless of the player's gender. I don't like to refer to this as bisexuality, hence the inverted commas, because I don't consider it to really be bisexuality: I see it as just a different way of making the character's sexuality correspond to the player's therefore it's still playersexuality as far as I'm concerned. This is based on my memory so bear that in mind: Pre-release, the Dragon Age II crew were said to be playersexual but post-release, the Dragon Age II crew were said to be bisexual. I believe it was changed in response to criticism in regards to how it was handled. Dragon Age II was rushed and the developers have stated previously, as far as I can recall, that playersexuality is cheaper on the resources. I think David Gaider has stated that either the development team or him dislike playersexuality. No matter how you define it, excluding Karl's subplot for a female pc was in no way required to open the romance up for a female PC.
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Post by phoray on Jun 6, 2017 18:21:23 GMT
Ideally I'd say neither (or a combination of the two, depending on whether you consider playersexual and bisexual to be different categories). I think it would make sense to see any plot-relevant romanceable characters be bisexual (and specifically so like Isabela or Anders rather than the generic Skyrim/Fallout4 style of playersexual) and then have optional side characters be exclusively straight or gay (or bi as well). Oh, that's an excellent idea. Super plot related characters being open to all genders and races, and save the LGBT rep for the optional characters.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 18:23:39 GMT
What I see is that if I play a male, of ANY race, I get to chose between TWO plot important characters, Dorian and Cassandra. But if I play a female, my only chance to even dream of a plot-important character is to play only ONE race, an Elf. That would have not happened if all three, Solas, Dorian and Cassandra were bi like in DA2. and that is what I want, roll a Qunari female that I would love to play and romance a cool character that is available to everyone, and is deeply involved in the plot. The thing about Solas' romance is that it is interwoven with elements of the elven race especially concerning the Dalish like language and perceptions of Dalish religion, history and such. This can be seen if you look through a compilation of scenes from the Solas romance. Adding other races would mean you couldn't have those elements because if you did, those aspects would not make much sense. Solas' romance is one of the cases where the gate for races makes sense not just on the background of the romance content but on the background of the character. Removing that gate would, in my opinion, negatively impact the romance and require a cheapening of its content to make it accommodate the other races. Solas dislikes Dalish as much as he dislikes all other races and does not really consider them "Elven". So in his eyes, Dalish and Qunari are all the same, modern creatures to be destroyed. There is absolutely no reason why someone who is in love with Solas would not be interested in his view on elves, and I doubt he has a strong desire to impregnate the PC so there is also no reason to not open it up to the males. But, then, according to you letting players decide what they wish to do and how they RP THEIR characters, and actually being able to enjoy the multiracial world to the fullest where the protagonist can be anything and still be accepted without caveats, cheapens something, something... well, to me, it enriches it, and does not constrain you.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 18:24:02 GMT
We've never actually HAD playersexual characters in Bioware games. To me, that means that the characters' sexuality will change depending on the gender of the PC. Just because a character doesn't explicitly state his/her sexuality, it doesn't mean that their sexuality isn't "set". People claim that DA2 had playersexual LI's, but that's just not the case. Sebastian is straight. Isabela is openly bisexual. Anders is openly bisexual (with the notable exception of the Karl conversation, but he DOES have a whole dialogue option around being, effectively, pansexual). Fenris and Merrill don't explicitly state their sexuality, but they are both romanceable to male and female characters. If they were truly "playersexual", then Fenris would be straight (explicitly) if you were a Marian and gay (explicitly) if you were Garrett. That doesn't happen. A bisexual character shouldn't have to say, "Oh and I also like men" to be considered bisexual.
There are games out there with truly "playersexual" characters. Look to the Choice of Games series. The LI's in those games actually change gender/sexuality to fit the combination of the PC. If I play as a gay guy, then the LI is a gay male. If I play as a straight guy, then the same LI is a straight female. That's playersexuality. And that's not what we have in Bioware games.
My vote is for set sexuality. And that includes having either a variety of options (a la ME:A or DA:I) or just having all bisexual options (a la vanilla DA2). I'm happy with either of those approaches.
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Post by shechinah on Jun 6, 2017 18:24:02 GMT
No matter how you define it, excluding Karl's subplot for a female pc was in no way required to open the romance up for a female PC. I've never said I supported the decision: just why I believed it to have been done.
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