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Post by Walter Black on Jun 6, 2017 23:33:37 GMT
You don't want to be punished romantically for playing particular type, but your approach punishes the writers, who want to create three dimensional characters with believable flaws and personal desires. It punishes other players who want very specific representation, like the Gay Knight In Shining Armor, or the butch lesbian. It also punishes both of them, since all bi characters means less Love Interests to work with.
Despite sounding like I hate the playersexual route, I get why people enjoy it; it's fun and easy, and everyone gets a shot at the available LIs. But neither system is without flaws. Once you dismiss gender and race gating, what's next, religion? A character should never, ever value their faith (or lack thereof) enough to want their significant other to share their beliefs*? Morality**? The Paragon should just accept the players' Ruthless Sociopath, or vice versa? Shouldn't a LI have anything in common with the PC?
*Just because Luke Kristjanson may have done Sera's reaction to Lavellan's faith the wrong way, doesn't mean some else couldn't provide a little more nuance.
**Josephine was the absolute worst in this regard, in my opinion. Being pan or demi-sexual and open to all races and genders, cool. The allegedly moral, diplomatic and devoutly Andrastian who still accepts an utter bastard Inquisitor? Not so much. Choosing Leiana's route in Of Somewhat Fallen Fortune should have cut the player off from Josephine's romance, especially since you explicitly go against her wishes in doing so. But it didn't, because player entitlement .
I can't see a single spark to be detracted from Dorian's brilliance if I did not have to re-roll a male to romance him. I needed that romance without taking a single flirt as a female PC, just by doing the other conversational options. I don't have some hot gay sex fetish or something. I loved the character, he felt about Tevinter the same way I do about my old country.
I missed this the last time but... Wow. Just... Wow.
David Gaider has said in many interviews how Dorian's tale was deeply personal to him, to the point where it exorcised old demons, and had very specific reasons why the character had to be gay. Yet here you are saying that he was WRONG to write the character he created the way he wanted. That your enjoyment of a video game was more important than his artistic fulfillment and emotional catharsis.
Please continue, I can't wait to see what comes next...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 23:36:26 GMT
Nope. Each game just needs four bi romances, each having a chaste branch. Easy enough. Back in the day, Infinity Engine modded romances had an option to refuse the intimacy and it was moved to the player-initiated options, and the flirting sets stayed at the second base level. If player never took it, no biggie. Work around it till the end of the game. So writing the equivalent of 16 romances is easy enough? That will never happen. Good for mods. What's your point? Mods can make either system work. It's not sixteen romances. It's four by the number of chars that can romance the PC, with extra branches. So, you lose your Morning After talk, and whatever nookies you had afterwards, it's usually not many. The player won't see Tier 3 Flirt pack. Bi needs an extra track, but a lot of "get to know you portion" is reusable, which is in your standard 25-30 talks romance is 10-15, and will already be partially re-used for friendship tracks.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 6, 2017 23:38:52 GMT
So writing the equivalent of 16 romances is easy enough? That will never happen. Good for mods. What's your point? Mods can make either system work. It's not sixteen romances. It's four by the number of chars that can romance the PC, with extra branches. So, you lose your Morning After talk, and whatever nookies you had afterwards, it's usually not many. The player won't see Tier 3 Flirt pack. Bi needs an extra track, but a lot of "get to know you portion" is reusable, which is in your standard 25-30 talks romance is 10-15, and will already be partially re-used for friendship tracks. No, it is 16. At least if you want them all to be good romances that actually respect the choices you make and not merely copy-pastes of one. By the way, your example is not a case of that since you basically say those who choose not to just get less content.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 23:44:01 GMT
I can't see a single spark to be detracted from Dorian's brilliance if I did not have to re-roll a male to romance him. I needed that romance without taking a single flirt as a female PC, just by doing the other conversational options. I don't have some hot gay sex fetish or something. I loved the character, he felt about Tevinter the same way I do about my old country.
I missed this the last time but... Wow. Just... Wow.
David Gaider has said in many interviews how Dorian's tale was deeply personal to him, to the point where it exorcised old demons, and had very specific reasons why the character had to be gay. Yet here you are saying that he was WRONG to write the character he created the way he wanted. That your enjoyment of a video game was more important than his artistic fulfillment and emotional catharsis.
Please continue, I can't wait to see what comes next...
He wrote the character that I admire. It was the only character I wanted to romance. I could not have known it in advance even when I looked at the romance matrix. I am not David Gaider's personal friend. I had lost 12 hours of my PT because I could not romance Dorian, and had to re-roll. I don't understand how it is a bad thing to find a compromise between my getting an awesome gaming experience, instead of abandoning a PC I really, really loved and David Gaider being able to write a character that romances another male. I don't know who wrote Anders and Reyes, but they are my respective favorite LIs in DA2 and Andromeda, so I don't understand why Inquisition could not do the same. Write really good dialogue, don't make me re-roll a male.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 23:49:06 GMT
It's not sixteen romances. It's four by the number of chars that can romance the PC, with extra branches. So, you lose your Morning After talk, and whatever nookies you had afterwards, it's usually not many. The player won't see Tier 3 Flirt pack. Bi needs an extra track, but a lot of "get to know you portion" is reusable, which is in your standard 25-30 talks romance is 10-15, and will already be partially re-used for friendship tracks. No, it is 16. At least if you want them all to be good romances that actually respect the choices you make and not merely copy-pastes of one. By the way, your example is not a case of that since you basically say those who choose not to just get less content. In this case, there is no point truly, because the only way you can create a romance you like is to custom write it for yourself. Or headcanon it. I am talking more about opening the existing tracks for those who want those existing tracks to match their PC.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 6, 2017 23:49:33 GMT
I missed this the last time but... Wow. Just... Wow.
David Gaider has said in many interviews how Dorian's tale was deeply personal to him, to the point where it exorcised old demons, and had very specific reasons why the character had to be gay. Yet here you are saying that he was WRONG to write the character he created the way he wanted. That your enjoyment of a video game was more important than his artistic fulfillment and emotional catharsis.
Please continue, I can't wait to see what comes next...
He wrote the character that I admire. It was the only character I wanted to romance. I could not have known it in advance even when I looked at the romance matrix. I am not David Gaider's personal friend. I had lost 12 hours of my PT because I could not romance Dorian, and had to re-roll. I don't understand how it is a bad thing to find a compromise between my getting an awesome gaming experience, instead of abandoning a PC I really, really loved and David Gaider being able to write a character that romances another male. I don't know who wrote Anders and Reyes, but they are my respective favorite LIs in DA2 and Andromeda, so I don't understand why Inquisition could not do the same. Write really good dialogue, don't make me re-roll a male. Dorian being gay was literally one of the first things to be announced about him, the same time we even actually learned his name. Jennifer Hepler wrote Anders and Courtney Woods wrote Reyes.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 6, 2017 23:52:59 GMT
No, it is 16. At least if you want them all to be good romances that actually respect the choices you make and not merely copy-pastes of one. By the way, your example is not a case of that since you basically say those who choose not to just get less content. In this case, there is no point truly, because the only way you can create a romance you like is to custom write it for yourself. Or headcanon it. I am talking more about opening the existing tracks for those who want those existing tracks to match their PC. So far Bioware has been able to do it while following the set sexuality approach.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 6, 2017 23:56:11 GMT
I missed this the last time but... Wow. Just... Wow.
David Gaider has said in many interviews how Dorian's tale was deeply personal to him, to the point where it exorcised old demons, and had very specific reasons why the character had to be gay. Yet here you are saying that he was WRONG to write the character he created the way he wanted. That your enjoyment of a video game was more important than his artistic fulfillment and emotional catharsis. Please continue, I can't wait to see what comes next... He wrote the character that I admire. It was the only character I wanted to romance. I could not have known it in advance even when I looked at the romance matrix. I am not David Gaider's personal friend. I had lost 12 hours of my PT because I could not romance Dorian, and had to re-roll. I don't understand how it is a bad thing to find a compromise between my getting an awesome gaming experience, instead of abandoning a PC I really, really loved and David Gaider being able to write a character that romances another male. I don't know who wrote Anders and Reyes, but they are my respective favorite LIs in DA2 and Andromeda, so I don't understand why Inquisition could not do the same. Write really good dialogue, don't make me re-roll a male. I don't really like his backstory. But why you want to change his sexuality? This just wrong.Awakening Anders and Justice was wrote by Gaider, DA2 Anders by Jennifer Helper. (I don't think, she really loves Anders' character, but did a good work. She wrote Sebastian and Elthina too...)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 23:57:04 GMT
He wrote the character that I admire. It was the only character I wanted to romance. I could not have known it in advance even when I looked at the romance matrix. I am not David Gaider's personal friend. I had lost 12 hours of my PT because I could not romance Dorian, and had to re-roll. I don't understand how it is a bad thing to find a compromise between my getting an awesome gaming experience, instead of abandoning a PC I really, really loved and David Gaider being able to write a character that romances another male. I don't know who wrote Anders and Reyes, but they are my respective favorite LIs in DA2 and Andromeda, so I don't understand why Inquisition could not do the same. Write really good dialogue, don't make me re-roll a male. Dorian being gay was literally one of the first things to be announced about him, the same time we even actually learned his name. David Gaider wrote Anders and Courtney Woods wrote Reyes. I knew that Dorian was gay. I did not set out to play Inquisition to play a gay romance with a male PC. I was playing a female Qunari, something I thought was an AWESOME PC. I was planning based on the matrix to romance Blackwall. He was boring. I started talking to Dorian, never taking the flirts, and his dialogues, OMG, he, the videogame character was taking about things I cannot talk to anyone in real life. He felt exactly the way I felt. So, I had to re-roll. That's a huge amount of time lost & the PC I've really liked abandoned. I kept thinking back to DA2 and how I had no preconception at all who my PC would romance, and it happened so naturally & awesomely. No rerolls. Just the PC I loved, and an NPC I totally adored, and he was not my first pick. He got to me. So... that's what I want to experience again. Playing a character I love creating, and not thinking in advance "I am going to go for a gay romance! or straight romance!" That's just backwards to me, and I want the games to be like DA2.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 0:00:06 GMT
He wrote the character that I admire. It was the only character I wanted to romance. I could not have known it in advance even when I looked at the romance matrix. I am not David Gaider's personal friend. I had lost 12 hours of my PT because I could not romance Dorian, and had to re-roll. I don't understand how it is a bad thing to find a compromise between my getting an awesome gaming experience, instead of abandoning a PC I really, really loved and David Gaider being able to write a character that romances another male. I don't know who wrote Anders and Reyes, but they are my respective favorite LIs in DA2 and Andromeda, so I don't understand why Inquisition could not do the same. Write really good dialogue, don't make me re-roll a male. I don't really like his backstory. But why you want to change his sexuality? This just wrong.Awakening Anders was wrote by Gaider, DA2 Anders by Jennifer Helper. (I don't think, she really love Anders' character, but did a good work.) I don't need to change his sexuality. I want him written as bi. As the characters were in DA2 from the beginning which is the whole point of this thread. It avoids all the arguments. If impossible, I still want to romance him. I would be happy to court him unrequited if that was allowed. Iron Bull is wrong for me. Falling in love with Dorian is every kind of right. Anyway, the OP asked the question, if you guys don't like the answer, what can I do. My answer is an emphatic: NO GATED ROMANCES. I don't want to be judged, prejudged and classified. I want to play the chars I want, and romance the chars I want to romance.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 7, 2017 0:08:53 GMT
I don't really like his backstory. But why you want to change his sexuality? This just wrong.Awakening Anders was wrote by Gaider, DA2 Anders by Jennifer Helper. (I don't think, she really love Anders' character, but did a good work.) I don't need to change his sexuality. I want him written as bi. As the characters were in DA2 from the beginning which is the whole point of this thread. It avoids all the arguments. If impossible, I still want to romance him. I would be happy to court him unrequited if that was allowed. Iron Bull is wrong. Falling in love with Dorian is every kind of right. Anyway, the OP asked the question, if you guys don't like the answer, what can I do. My answer is an emphatic: NO GATED ROMANCES. So: you want a bi witty-peacock Tevinter altus, with daddy issues, who leave your inquisitor with a mobile crystal and a tearful sentence: "Bye, I'll call you!"?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 0:20:22 GMT
I don't need to change his sexuality. I want him written as bi. As the characters were in DA2 from the beginning which is the whole point of this thread. It avoids all the arguments. If impossible, I still want to romance him. I would be happy to court him unrequited if that was allowed. Iron Bull is wrong. Falling in love with Dorian is every kind of right. Anyway, the OP asked the question, if you guys don't like the answer, what can I do. My answer is an emphatic: NO GATED ROMANCES. So: you want a bi witty-peacock Tevinter altus, with daddy issues, who leave your inquisitor with a mobile christal and a tearful sentence: "Bye, I'll call you!"? Pretty much, because he looked up at me and said: "We pretend. We pretend that Qunari can be defeated." and when he said how "we love our complicated words." and how he said about that cow flying over Mithantrius "well, that's actually true, but it's not that way". Because of his monologue on Corypheus "being one of yours". Dorian articulates in a fantasy setting what I feel every day for nearly 30 years & don't dare talk about. Dorian is the character I will romance, because nobody else can compare. Just like nobody else compares to Anders in DA2.
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Post by Walter Black on Jun 7, 2017 0:21:13 GMT
I don't really like his backstory. But why you want to change his sexuality? This just wrong.Awakening Anders was wrote by Gaider, DA2 Anders by Jennifer Helper. (I don't think, she really love Anders' character, but did a good work.) I don't need to change his sexuality. I want him written as bi. As the characters were in DA2 from the beginning which is the whole point of this thread. It avoids all the arguments. If impossible, I still want to romance him. I would be happy to court him unrequited if that was allowed. Iron Bull is wrong for me. Falling in love with Dorian is every kind of right. Anyway, the OP asked the question, if you guys don't like the answer, what can I do. My answer is an emphatic: NO GATED ROMANCES. I don't want to be judged, prejudged and classified. I want to play the chars I want, and romance the chars I want to romance. Well, as the Original Poster, yes I am interested in whether people prefer the Playersexual or Set Orientations approach to Bioware romances. More importantly, I am interested in why they feel the way they do. As far as judgements, the preference itself is already a judgment that one is superior to the other. Having made such a statement, we should be able to defend our positions. But I agree it should be more "this is why I love A" and less "B sucks and should abandoned".
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Post by Catilina on Jun 7, 2017 0:50:10 GMT
So: you want a bi witty-peacock Tevinter altus, with daddy issues, who leave your inquisitor with a mobile christal and a tearful sentence: "Bye, I'll call you!"? Pretty much, because he looked up at me and said: "We pretend. We pretend that Qunari can be defeated." and when he said how "we love our complicated words." and how he said about that cow flying over Mithantrius "well, that's actually true, but it's not that way". Because of his monologue on Corypheus "being one of yours". Dorian articulates in a fantasy setting what I feel every day for nearly 30 years & don't dare talk about. Dorian is the character I will romance, because nobody else can compare. Just like nobody else compares to Anders in DA2. Yes, I got, why you love Dorian, but I don't understand: you romanced Anders as male Hawke, and you liked, why you want to romance Dorian as female Inquisitor? He's written as gay, and this is good. Gay representation in the media is very bad, this is why I feel wrong your request. And as I said: I can understand, why you want a Dorian-kind LI for fem Inquisitor. But this would be not Dorian, just a similar man.
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Post by lucidae on Jun 7, 2017 2:40:10 GMT
Anders is an example of a downside to playersexuality as he'll leave out the romantic aspect of his relationship with Karl if the dialogue is with a female Hawke. He will not do this in dialogue with a male Hawke and there, he'll also state that he sees nothing wrong with finding love with someone who is similar to himself in response to Hawke being taken back by the idea of him being with Karl. Basically, a part of Anders' history and arguably characterization is removed to maintain playersexuality. Dorian is an example of an upside to set sexuality. While some people dislike it, I feel the conflict between Dorian and his father provides a very interesting insight into how much emphasis is placed on bloodlines in the Tevinter Imperium. This is especially demonstrated by just how much Dorian's father is willing to risk and resort to in order to secure a heir from Dorian. While this conflict could still exist if Dorian was not gay and his sexuality is only a part of his refusal to do as expected, it also provides an insight into a part of Tevinter culture like homosexuality requiring discretion and expected to be brief flings if anything or be sated on slaves. The was no reason to exclude Karl for a female PC, and Dorian's objections towards bloodline purity and living in the lap of luxury while despising one another is based as much as of his seeing his parents, as his disinterest in females. His rebellion is not for the sake of a lover of significance in his life, but against being forced to repeat his father's mistake, and his father being the one who forces him too. Any arranged marriage at all, even if it were to a man of a suitable family, would be just as objectionable to him. I think they did it because they assumed most hetero female players who wanted to romance Anders would be taken aback about his statements on Karl. I know I was when I saw the conversation on youtube for the first time. I had romanced him on a female my first playthrough and didn't even know the companions in DA2 were playersexual. Also it makes more sense for him to be more willing to open up about that romance with another gay/bi man vs. a (potentially) hetero woman. Because that conversation about Karl happens pretty early on in the game. Honestly I just pretend that in my canon playthrough where I romanced him he didn't have a romance with Karl. Also in regards to Dorian, I think you're missing a big part of his struggle with his father. His father tried to use blood magic on him to change him because of his sexual preference (not because of a specific person he loved). Now if that isn't a cause for rebellion idk what is.
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Post by leadintea on Jun 7, 2017 3:03:49 GMT
Personally, I want characters to be written as characters first, with all the nuances that come with it, and not to have an aspect of their characterization cut just for the sake of catering to players. If this was a Bethesda game like Fallout or Skyrim where the writing for characters wasn't strong, I wouldn't care so much about whether or not they were playersexual, but Bioware characters tend to have more depth than that and I want every facet of their character to be written and treated with care first and foremost. If this means that a player doesn't get to recruit, befriend, or romance a character they really want to, then so be it.
A character rejecting or leaving the PC based on the character's desires adds to roleplaying and both were also heavily requested features according to the MEA devs, where players wanted characters of set orientations to turn down PCs if they didn't align with their preferred sex or for characters to call out PCs that cheated on them. Things like these create an immersive world and adds to the roleplaying of a game, and they shouldn't be lost or omitted for the sake of catering to players. Not only that, but as a gay man, I feel as though it'd be disrespectful to only have playersexual/bisxeuals as the only candidates for romance. A bi guy is not the same as a gay guy and I don't want a potential gay romance to be removed in favor of a bisexual, or worse, changed into one during the character creation process. And that's all I'm going to say about the matter.
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Post by lucidae on Jun 7, 2017 3:22:41 GMT
Personally, I want characters to be written as characters first, with all the nuances that come with it, and not to have an aspect of their characterization cut just for the sake of catering to players. If this was a Bethesda game like Fallout or Skyrim where the writing for characters wasn't strong, I wouldn't care so much about whether or not they were playersexual, but Bioware characters tend to have more depth than that and I want every facet of their character to be written and treated with care first and foremost. If this means that a player doesn't get to recruit, befriend, or romance a character they really want to, then so be it. A character rejecting or leaving the PC based on the character's desires adds to roleplaying and both were also heavily requested features according to the MEA devs, where players wanted characters of set orientations to turn down PCs if they didn't align with their preferred sex or for characters to call out PCs that cheated on them. Things like these create an immersive world and adds to the roleplaying of a game, and they shouldn't be lost or omitted for the sake of catering to players. Not only that, but as a gay man, I feel as though it'd be disrespectful to only have playersexual/bisxeuals as the only candidates for romance. A bi guy is not the same as a gay guy and I don't want a potential gay romance to be removed in favor of a bisexual, or worse, changed into one during the character creation process. And that's all I'm going to say about the matter. 100% agreed, well said! I love Dragon Age because of the world, story, and characters. Anything that breaks that immersion (like playersexual) is heinous to me. I love that the choices I make in creating my character impact my potential relationship prospects and outcomes. I was devastated when I found out my female city elf in DAO could only be with King Alistair as a concubine. I also have a mad crush on Dorian, but all of the playthroughs I care about are with female hetero protagonists. The consequences (and sometimes agony) that comes with my choices are delicious. Because I wouldn't want to change a thing about the characters because I love them for who they are/how they were written. My preference in player character doesn't always line up with who I want to romance or how I want the romance to play out. And I think it's great. In more depth with Dorian for example: I already said I crush on him. But I knew he was gay from the start and had no chance as a hetero female inquisitor. And my personal "relationship" developed with him in such a way where he became my BFF instead. I like how his romantic inaccessibility has impacted my thoughts and feelings towards him. It has helped to shape a new perspective where I experience a small taste of liking someone, but never having a chance to begin with due to sexuality. As a hetero female IRL I've never been in a situation like that before, I've never experienced anything like it. And it makes him feel more real and human and less of an object. Ultimately I think it is important to remember that Dragon Age isn't a dating sim, so you aren't going to get a dating sim experience. Romances are just a fun and awesome bonus in these games!
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Post by arvaarad on Jun 7, 2017 4:30:56 GMT
I still am baffled at how people decided the DA2 companions were "playersexual" instead of... y'know... pan/flexible. Sebastian is straight, so the concept of orientations exists.
In a world like Thedas, where there's less weird hangups about sex, people who would be pressured to "choose", can instead sit comfortably in the middle of the Kinsey scale.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jun 7, 2017 5:26:49 GMT
We've never actually HAD playersexual characters in Bioware games. To me, that means that the characters' sexuality will change depending on the gender of the PC. Just because a character doesn't explicitly state his/her sexuality, it doesn't mean that their sexuality isn't "set". People claim that DA2 had playersexual LI's, but that's just not the case. Sebastian is straight. Isabela is openly bisexual. Anders is openly bisexual (with the notable exception of the Karl conversation, but he DOES have a whole dialogue option around being, effectively, pansexual). Fenris and Merrill don't explicitly state their sexuality, but they are both romanceable to male and female characters. If they were truly "playersexual", then Fenris would be straight (explicitly) if you were a Marian and gay (explicitly) if you were Garrett. That doesn't happen. A bisexual character shouldn't have to say, "Oh and I also like men" to be considered bisexual. There are games out there with truly "playersexual" characters. Look to the Choice of Games series. The LI's in those games actually change gender/sexuality to fit the combination of the PC. If I play as a gay guy, then the LI is a gay male. If I play as a straight guy, then the same LI is a straight female. That's playersexuality. And that's not what we have in Bioware games. My vote is for set sexuality. And that includes having either a variety of options (a la ME:A or DA:I) or just having all bisexual options (a la vanilla DA2). I'm happy with either of those approaches. So much this. All of the DA2 characters have non-ambiguous sexualities if you only pay attention to the details. The four most prominent are bisexual. They are attracted to both genders (and this does not, for the record, disallow them from being seen as falling somewhere on an ace spectrum). Calling clear bisexuality "playersexuality" creeps me the hell out.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 7, 2017 5:32:59 GMT
We've never actually HAD playersexual characters in Bioware games. To me, that means that the characters' sexuality will change depending on the gender of the PC. Just because a character doesn't explicitly state his/her sexuality, it doesn't mean that their sexuality isn't "set". People claim that DA2 had playersexual LI's, but that's just not the case. Sebastian is straight. Isabela is openly bisexual. Anders is openly bisexual (with the notable exception of the Karl conversation, but he DOES have a whole dialogue option around being, effectively, pansexual). Fenris and Merrill don't explicitly state their sexuality, but they are both romanceable to male and female characters. If they were truly "playersexual", then Fenris would be straight (explicitly) if you were a Marian and gay (explicitly) if you were Garrett. That doesn't happen. A bisexual character shouldn't have to say, "Oh and I also like men" to be considered bisexual. There are games out there with truly "playersexual" characters. Look to the Choice of Games series. The LI's in those games actually change gender/sexuality to fit the combination of the PC. If I play as a gay guy, then the LI is a gay male. If I play as a straight guy, then the same LI is a straight female. That's playersexuality. And that's not what we have in Bioware games. My vote is for set sexuality. And that includes having either a variety of options (a la ME:A or DA:I) or just having all bisexual options (a la vanilla DA2). I'm happy with either of those approaches. So much this. All of the DA2 characters have non-ambiguous sexualities if you only pay attention to the details. The four most prominent are bisexual. They are attracted to both genders (and this does not, for the record, disallow them from being seen as falling somewhere on an ace spectrum). Calling clear bisexuality "playersexuality" creeps me the hell out. Well it's no fun if you say that before I put ' '.
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Post by lucidae on Jun 7, 2017 5:46:31 GMT
We've never actually HAD playersexual characters in Bioware games. To me, that means that the characters' sexuality will change depending on the gender of the PC. Just because a character doesn't explicitly state his/her sexuality, it doesn't mean that their sexuality isn't "set". People claim that DA2 had playersexual LI's, but that's just not the case. Sebastian is straight. Isabela is openly bisexual. Anders is openly bisexual (with the notable exception of the Karl conversation, but he DOES have a whole dialogue option around being, effectively, pansexual). Fenris and Merrill don't explicitly state their sexuality, but they are both romanceable to male and female characters. If they were truly "playersexual", then Fenris would be straight (explicitly) if you were a Marian and gay (explicitly) if you were Garrett. That doesn't happen. A bisexual character shouldn't have to say, "Oh and I also like men" to be considered bisexual. There are games out there with truly "playersexual" characters. Look to the Choice of Games series. The LI's in those games actually change gender/sexuality to fit the combination of the PC. If I play as a gay guy, then the LI is a gay male. If I play as a straight guy, then the same LI is a straight female. That's playersexuality. And that's not what we have in Bioware games. My vote is for set sexuality. And that includes having either a variety of options (a la ME:A or DA:I) or just having all bisexual options (a la vanilla DA2). I'm happy with either of those approaches. So much this. All of the DA2 characters have non-ambiguous sexualities if you only pay attention to the details. The four most prominent are bisexual. They are attracted to both genders (and this does not, for the record, disallow them from being seen as falling somewhere on an ace spectrum). Calling clear bisexuality "playersexuality" creeps me the hell out. Anders and Fenris come off as very straight when you romance them with a female (Although it's been a long time since I've played DA2, so feel free to prove me wrong). Like I said earlier I didn't even have an inkling that Anders could be romanced by a male Hawke until I stumbled on it on YouTube. So that's why I see them as playersexual. As well as the devs making it clear during DAI development that they made DA2 with the intention of the player being able to romance anyone and that they regretted it. I know Sebastian is supposedly straight, but he's a dlc character that I don't think most people even bought as no one seems to talk about him. I forget that guy even exists. (I didn't buy him)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 11:59:43 GMT
The was no reason to exclude Karl for a female PC, and Dorian's objections towards bloodline purity and living in the lap of luxury while despising one another is based as much as of his seeing his parents, as his disinterest in females. His rebellion is not for the sake of a lover of significance in his life, but against being forced to repeat his father's mistake, and his father being the one who forces him too. Any arranged marriage at all, even if it were to a man of a suitable family, would be just as objectionable to him. I think they did it because they assumed most hetero female players who wanted to romance Anders would be taken aback about his statements on Karl. I know I was when I saw the conversation on youtube for the first time. I had romanced him on a female my first playthrough and didn't even know the companions in DA2 were playersexual. Also it makes more sense for him to be more willing to open up about that romance with another gay/bi man vs. a (potentially) hetero woman. Because that conversation about Karl happens pretty early on in the game. Honestly I just pretend that in my canon playthrough where I romanced him he didn't have a romance with Karl. Also in regards to Dorian, I think you're missing a big part of his struggle with his father. His father tried beto use blood magic on him to change him because of his sexual preference (not because of a specific person he loved). Now if that isn't a cause for rebellion idk what is. No, I am not missing it, I just think his father could have suggested Blood magic to "fix" him not wanting to marry a specific bride. His outrage against breeding and his parents' loveless marriage, and them having to produce him (it goes unsaid but implied that Pavus only managed to tolerate each other as long as it took to conceive a single boy, no spares) so a bisexual story is by no means impossible. For all we know senior Pavus partook of spells to cause say a temporary infatuation with his wife to be, and his dislike of blood magic comes from there once the spell wore off. Just like Dorian's personality is universally attractive, so is his tale of struggle with hypocrisy, for his dignity, is universal in its appeal. Parts of his tale that are not universal are about being an exile in the world that hates everything his nation stands for, and him himself having a divided feelings about it. He himself will trash Tevinter and see it as righteous, but when a foreigner does it, it wounds him. It's another well noted feeling, that I saw expressed in literature dating to the foundations of nationalism at least. obviously, we can't truly feel the way others feel, but Anders' in his desperate need for attachment and love strikes me more believable as falling in love without following a particular script. I missed Karl's story and his dialogue regarding "is it wrong to love someone because they are just like you" very much on my female PT.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 12:01:44 GMT
We've never actually HAD playersexual characters in Bioware games. To me, that means that the characters' sexuality will change depending on the gender of the PC. Just because a character doesn't explicitly state his/her sexuality, it doesn't mean that their sexuality isn't "set". People claim that DA2 had playersexual LI's, but that's just not the case. Sebastian is straight. Isabela is openly bisexual. Anders is openly bisexual (with the notable exception of the Karl conversation, but he DOES have a whole dialogue option around being, effectively, pansexual). Fenris and Merrill don't explicitly state their sexuality, but they are both romanceable to male and female characters. If they were truly "playersexual", then Fenris would be straight (explicitly) if you were a Marian and gay (explicitly) if you were Garrett. That doesn't happen. A bisexual character shouldn't have to say, "Oh and I also like men" to be considered bisexual. There are games out there with truly "playersexual" characters. Look to the Choice of Games series. The LI's in those games actually change gender/sexuality to fit the combination of the PC. If I play as a gay guy, then the LI is a gay male. If I play as a straight guy, then the same LI is a straight female. That's playersexuality. And that's not what we have in Bioware games. My vote is for set sexuality. And that includes having either a variety of options (a la ME:A or DA:I) or just having all bisexual options (a la vanilla DA2). I'm happy with either of those approaches. So much this. All of the DA2 characters have non-ambiguous sexualities if you only pay attention to the details. The four most prominent are bisexual. They are attracted to both genders (and this does not, for the record, disallow them from being seen as falling somewhere on an ace spectrum). Calling clear bisexuality "playersexuality" creeps me the hell out. Well, the poll had two options to vote for with no definition of each term. Perhaps, less loaded words should have been used to describe the game mechanics
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 12:22:50 GMT
But it's not the final product, Jaal was into women in the game and changing it feels like a complete fan service (maybe it's not but sure feels like it). It's like taking away a part of character's personality. Heh, I feel like this is the point where I should insert a sarcastic joke here about how none of the characters in MEA have much personality either way! Seriously though, in the game as-shipped, Scott can hit on Liam and Suvi and be turned down (same thing for Sara with Cora and Gil), but pre-patch Scott couldn't flirt with Jaal and so Jaal never specified one way or the other. Obviously opinions will differ, but if a character doesn't state a preference in-game we can only guess. We know he's into women, but we don't (or rather didn't) know one way or the other about men. Look at Jack in ME2/3 - she's gender-gated for mShep, but she also talks about a past relationship with a woman and can flirt with female characters in ME3 (depending on the composition of party guests in the Citidel party), so arguably she's a straight romance option but not a straight character. That's not my point. If Jaal was made bi from the launch I would be fine with it, but it wasn't, writers didn't prefer it that way. Then people started opening hashtags and such because they wanted a third m/m romance and BW suddenly delivered it. This is what's scary, that Bioware who is famous for their great stories is being reduced to a dating simulator company
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 12:25:48 GMT
Pretty much, because he looked up at me and said: "We pretend. We pretend that Qunari can be defeated." and when he said how "we love our complicated words." and how he said about that cow flying over Mithantrius "well, that's actually true, but it's not that way". Because of his monologue on Corypheus "being one of yours". Dorian articulates in a fantasy setting what I feel every day for nearly 30 years & don't dare talk about. Dorian is the character I will romance, because nobody else can compare. Just like nobody else compares to Anders in DA2. Yes, I got, why you love Dorian, but I don't understand: you romanced Anders as male Hawke, and you liked, why you want to romance Dorian as female Inquisitor? He's written as gay, and this is good. Gay representation in the media is very bad, this is why I feel wrong your request. And as I said: I can understand, why you want a Dorian-kind LI for fem Inquisitor. But this would be not Dorian, just a similar man. Same reason I welcomed Jaal being made available to the male player, and all squad female options being being open to any PC, in Andromeda to start with, and Reyes, and the DA2 chars being open to to both. Because the game does not impose restrictions on what I should play as MY pc, in terms of gender and race. And I want that pc that I love to be loved by the LI I prefer. There is no perfect PT through Inquisition for me, because the gender-race for my PC is gated from all the romances I like. I don't like doing second best in either category. Or in Inquisition case, well, not romancing at all because F!Qunari options are not to my taste. Four, Four (!) romances that imo are the best Because of the characters being involved in the plot and are powerful and attractive to me are Solas, Dorian, Cassandra and Cullen. All four are not available to a Qunari female. All those options, and i was left w/o romance b/c of the gates. I am particularly unhappy when romantic choices dictate me to play as a male, because in so many games, year after year, male avatars got far more and better content.if I chose to play as a male, it's different, because I was not forced to change my PC. I wanted to play one to start with. DA2 was a holy grail, because I could finally just create my PC and get my perfect play through. If only it had races selection for the Protagonist. and that is why, I prefer the games to be like DA2, and that is why I say thanks goodness they opened Jaal to a male pc, not because I personally want to romance a Jaal, but because imo it is the right thing to do in terms of romance design. I don't like romance gates. DA2 showed me the best way to do it. Whatever you call it, playersexual, bisexual... but letting me chose what I want to play and have a great pt, without any unwanted compromises. i don't play games in a way of sampling different content each PT. I play to have that absolutely awesome one PT with a cool protagonist I adore and a wonderful love story to go with it. Then, well, maybe I will check other option out, but maybe not.... So, DA2 way suits my style, and it by no means detracted from the quality of romances or the complexity of the characters. and if my position is somehow still unclear, well, that then cannot be helped. I cannot explain it any clearer and I cannot be convinced that the gates are better even if in some games I do get a gated romance that I love, and I don't have to override my personal preferences for the protagonist to "get it".
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