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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Jun 7, 2017 12:54:52 GMT
Anders and Fenris come off as very straight when you romance them with a female (Although it's been a long time since I've played DA2, so feel free to prove me wrong). Having a preference != being all the way on one end of the Kinsey scale A lot of real people exist who are mostly attracted to men, or mostly attracted to women, but have one or two exceptions. Real people exist who publicly express their appreciation for <gender A> but are currently in a relationship with someone in <gender B>. A problem which exists in our world is that, for anyone of any gender who is attracted to men, that's assumed to be their "real" orientation, even if they're also attracted to people of other genders. Pan guys are assumed to be "gay but not accepting it", pan women are assumed to be "straight but experimenting". So there's societal pressure to "pick a side", which skews the numbers. A lot of people who are pan, but closer to one end of the spectrum, might drift a little closer to that end instead of inviting all those conversations saying "but aren't you really X, and just confused?" Happily, in Thedas, that pressure is much less. So we'd expect to see more variety among people who are attracted to multiple genders. Some might be smack down the middle, but many are going to have a preference one way or another.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 7, 2017 13:01:27 GMT
So much this. All of the DA2 characters have non-ambiguous sexualities if you only pay attention to the details. The four most prominent are bisexual. They are attracted to both genders (and this does not, for the record, disallow them from being seen as falling somewhere on an ace spectrum). Calling clear bisexuality "playersexuality" creeps me the hell out. Anders and Fenris come off as very straight when you romance them with a female (Although it's been a long time since I've played DA2, so feel free to prove me wrong). Like I said earlier I didn't even have an inkling that Anders could be romanced by a male Hawke until I stumbled on it on YouTube. So that's why I see them as playersexual. As well as the devs making it clear during DAI development that they made DA2 with the intention of the player being able to romance anyone and that they regretted it. I know Sebastian is supposedly straight, but he's a dlc character that I don't think most people even bought as no one seems to talk about him. I forget that guy even exists. (I didn't buy him) Anders was not straight only he got a very shit presentation, if you played as Fem!Hawke. Probably the writers thought, that the player, who plays as fem!Hawke would be confused, by the truth... Fenris and Merrill simple not really speak about their sexuality.
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Post by lucidae on Jun 7, 2017 13:11:04 GMT
Anders and Fenris come off as very straight when you romance them with a female (Although it's been a long time since I've played DA2, so feel free to prove me wrong). Like I said earlier I didn't even have an inkling that Anders could be romanced by a male Hawke until I stumbled on it on YouTube. So that's why I see them as playersexual. As well as the devs making it clear during DAI development that they made DA2 with the intention of the player being able to romance anyone and that they regretted it. I know Sebastian is supposedly straight, but he's a dlc character that I don't think most people even bought as no one seems to talk about him. I forget that guy even exists. (I didn't buy him) Anders was not straight only he got a very shit presentation, if you played as Fem!Hawke. Probably the writers thought, that the player, who plays as fem!Hawke would be confused, by the truth... Fenris and Merrill simple not really speak about their sexuality. This is exactly one of the reasons why these characters come off as playersexual to me. Don't most people who are bi talk about their sexuality with their partner at some point? I don't really know. I just know one of my friends who is bi has, and told me that they would talk about it with any future partners too. It just feels like you would be hiding an aspect of yourself if you didn't talk about it at some point.
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Post by lucidae on Jun 7, 2017 13:16:19 GMT
Anders and Fenris come off as very straight when you romance them with a female (Although it's been a long time since I've played DA2, so feel free to prove me wrong). Having a preference != being all the way on one end of the Kinsey scale A lot of real people exist who are mostly attracted to men, or mostly attracted to women, but have one or two exceptions. Real people exist who publicly express their appreciation for <gender A> but are currently in a relationship with someone in <gender B>. A problem which exists in our world is that, for anyone of any gender who is attracted to men, that's assumed to be their "real" orientation, even if they're also attracted to people of other genders. Pan guys are assumed to be "gay but not accepting it", pan women are assumed to be "straight but experimenting". So there's societal pressure to "pick a side", which skews the numbers. A lot of people who are pan, but closer to one end of the spectrum, might drift a little closer to that end instead of inviting all those conversations saying "but aren't you really X, and just confused?" Happily, in Thedas, that pressure is much less. So we'd expect to see more variety among people who are attracted to multiple genders. Some might be smack down the middle, but many are going to have a preference one way or another. Are you saying they have preference for females then?
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Post by arvaarad on Jun 7, 2017 13:36:59 GMT
Having a preference != being all the way on one end of the Kinsey scale A lot of real people exist who are mostly attracted to men, or mostly attracted to women, but have one or two exceptions. Real people exist who publicly express their appreciation for <gender A> but are currently in a relationship with someone in <gender B>. A problem which exists in our world is that, for anyone of any gender who is attracted to men, that's assumed to be their "real" orientation, even if they're also attracted to people of other genders. Pan guys are assumed to be "gay but not accepting it", pan women are assumed to be "straight but experimenting". So there's societal pressure to "pick a side", which skews the numbers. A lot of people who are pan, but closer to one end of the spectrum, might drift a little closer to that end instead of inviting all those conversations saying "but aren't you really X, and just confused?" Happily, in Thedas, that pressure is much less. So we'd expect to see more variety among people who are attracted to multiple genders. Some might be smack down the middle, but many are going to have a preference one way or another. Are you saying they have preference for females then? Anders talks more about his attraction to women, though that doesn't necessarily translate to actual preference. I'm slightly more attracted to men, but I talk more about the women I'm attracted to. Unless I'm mistaken, Fenris doesn't send any signals either way. He gets with Isabela but doesn't make any indications of preference - only that he is at least attracted to one woman (or two, if romanced by f!Hawke).
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jun 7, 2017 14:33:00 GMT
Are you saying they have preference for females then? Anders talks more about his attraction to women , though that doesn't necessarily translate to actual preference. I'm slightly more attracted to men, but I talk more about the women I'm attracted to. Unless I'm mistaken, Fenris doesn't send any signals either way. He gets with Isabela but doesn't make any indications of preference - only that he is at least attracted to one woman (or two, if romanced by f!Hawke). Yes. Anders is flirty in DAA, but he never talked about a real love relationship, nor even in DA2, except Karl – sadly, only to M!Hawke. (When he was together with him, Anders didn't try to escape from the Circle.) Fenris can accept Isabela's interesting.This also doesn't shows preference. I think, Isabela has preference, toward women.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 14:55:30 GMT
I thought i wanted all bisexual characters with different dialogue based on your pc's gender, but you know what? I want set orientations. I want the NPC's to feel more alive, to have their own likes/dislikes, agendas and so on. I don't mind race gating either, but it's not needed if it locks a lot of players out of something. Kudos to Iakus for making me see the light.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by raikas on Jun 7, 2017 15:31:53 GMT
That's not my point. If Jaal was made bi from the launch I would be fine with it, but it wasn't, writers didn't prefer it that way. Then people started opening hashtags and such because they wanted a third m/m romance and BW suddenly delivered it. This is what's scary, that Bioware who is famous for their great stories is being reduced to a dating simulator company Eh, I don't think it's any different than having the extended ending added to ME3. It's extra content, it's free, and it doesn't retcon anything that was directly stated in-game originally. And really, the romances are a tiny fraction of the game's content that most people don't play, so even if they'd added a whole new character I don't think it would make a real difference in the genre of the game. So I just don't buy that changing the gender-gating one one of them is some leap into dating simulator territory. The only thing that's scary to me is that they released a game that so clearly didn't get far enough through QA testing in the first place, and even that's explainable as a risk-benefit trade off (personally I think they made the wrong choice there, but hey).
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Stealth Swooper
This morning my husband said I was evil like June Cleaver. I cried a single tear of wicked happiness
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 385 Likes: 745
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This morning my husband said I was evil like June Cleaver. I cried a single tear of wicked happiness
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Post by Norstaera on Jun 7, 2017 16:39:45 GMT
I voted for set preferences but I also want a variety of options with fully developed characters. I want the writers to commit to a character, including sexuality and racial preference, and do what makes sense for that character. I would like a pc to have the same number of same sex options as opposite sex options, and if there's an odd number of LI's, then I think it makes sense for that character to be bisexual. I don't mind playing as a different gender in order to romance a particular character. I will ask that the writers create different types of personalities regardless of sexual orientation and try avoiding stereotypes.
I admit I don't totally understand 'playersexual' and how it differs from bisexual on a practical level (i.e. I can romance Character J whether I play as male or female). I am not sure that there is even a consensus on what it means or how it should be implemented. If more resources have to be devoted to playersexuality, then I am against it. I would rather they be used to further enrich the story in other areas.
I don't mind the brothels in DAO and DA2. If it makes sense for an area, why not, as long as it isn't gratuitous?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 18:50:40 GMT
That's not my point. If Jaal was made bi from the launch I would be fine with it, but it wasn't, writers didn't prefer it that way. Then people started opening hashtags and such because they wanted a third m/m romance and BW suddenly delivered it. This is what's scary, that Bioware who is famous for their great stories is being reduced to a dating simulator company Eh, I don't think it's any different than having the extended ending added to ME3. It's extra content, it's free, and it doesn't retcon anything that was directly stated in-game originally. And really, the romances are a tiny fraction of the game's content that most people don't play, so even if they'd added a whole new character I don't think it would make a real difference in the genre of the game. So I just don't buy that changing the gender-gating one one of them is some leap into dating simulator territory. The only thing that's scary to me is that they released a game that so clearly didn't get far enough through QA testing in the first place, and even that's explainable as a risk-benefit trade off (personally I think they made the wrong choice there, but hey). You well know the reasoning behind the extended cut. It had nothing to do with this. It really turns the game into a dating simulator. Think about it; up until MEA all Bioware games were being praised for their good plots and interesting characters. Now the majority of the players are concerned with their romances and nothing more.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 19:01:23 GMT
Well, if you applied set sexualities to DA2 cast,on the 2/2/2 distribution you'd end up with Aveline and Varric as straight, Anders and Isabela as bi, and Fenris and Merril as gay. It's not as bad as Inquisition, so maybe it the function of a cast not being weighed too heavily towards male romances being more interesting. It would take additional resources to add two more romances.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jun 7, 2017 19:23:26 GMT
Well, if you applied set sexualities to DA2 cast,on the 2/2/2 distribution you'd end up with Aveline and Varric as straight, Anders and Isabela as bi, and Fenris and Merril as gay. It's not as bad as Inquisition, so maybe it the function of a cast not being weighed too heavily towards male romances being more interesting. It would take additional resources to add two more romances. No problem with bisexuality, the problem is the "playersexuality". Solas, Cassandra and Cullen, for example, would be nice, if they would bisexual. Solas because he's story wise (I like his race gate), Cassandra and Cullen for breaking the stereotypes.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 19:35:48 GMT
Well, if you applied set sexualities to DA2 cast,on the 2/2/2 distribution you'd end up with Aveline and Varric as straight, Anders and Isabela as bi, and Fenris and Merril as gay. It's not as bad as Inquisition, so maybe it the function of a cast not being weighed too heavily towards male romances being more interesting. It would take additional resources to add two more romances. No problem with bisexuality, the problem is the "playersexuality". Solas, Cassandra and Cullen, for example, would be nice, if they would bisexual. Solas because he's story wise (I like his race gate), Cassandra and Cullen for breaking the stereotypes. Well, tell that to the author of the poll, he said set or playersexual. what's so special about Blackwall that you would make every other formerly straight LI bi, except for him. Cullen still needs racial gate lifted, or Solas should, because Qunari are awesome.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 7, 2017 19:46:59 GMT
No problem with bisexuality, the problem is the "playersexuality". Solas, Cassandra and Cullen, for example, would be nice, if they would bisexual. Solas because he's story wise (I like his race gate), Cassandra and Cullen for breaking the stereotypes. Well, tell that to the author of the poll, he said set or playersexual. what's so special about Blackwall that you would make every other formerly straight LI bi, except for him. Cullen still needs racial gate lifted, or Solas should, because Qunari are awesome. Especially I like him, but many people think Cullen's is more fit the KISA style than Blackwall, and Cullen can marry with the Inquisitor. You know, that I think, Cullen not more innocent than Blackwall, but Cullen didn't lie about who is him. And Cullen committed only lawful sin... This is why I wrote, that for example Cullen, not Blackwall. I spoke about only Solas' racial gate, not Cullen's I don't care about this. (A qunari mage would nice with him...)
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Post by opuspace on Jun 10, 2017 18:59:11 GMT
It's not sixteen romances. It's four by the number of chars that can romance the PC, with extra branches. So, you lose your Morning After talk, and whatever nookies you had afterwards, it's usually not many. The player won't see Tier 3 Flirt pack. Bi needs an extra track, but a lot of "get to know you portion" is reusable, which is in your standard 25-30 talks romance is 10-15, and will already be partially re-used for friendship tracks. No, it is 16. At least if you want them all to be good romances that actually respect the choices you make and not merely copy-pastes of one. By the way, your example is not a case of that since you basically say those who choose not to just get less content. I don't entirely agree with carefull's wishes towards playersexuality but having the option for a romance to be chaste or more intimate is not writing extra romances. Dorian's and Blackwall's romance doesn't change their sexuality, yet there are options to have it be romantic without sex. Demisexuality is a nuance to a sexuality, not an isolated orientation that can be easily picked out. If someone says they're demisexual, it's inevitably going to be followed up with a question as to which gender? If someone says they're straight, bi or gay, people don't usually need further clarification. Now asexuality on the other hand...
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Jun 12, 2017 4:49:15 GMT
Inquisition got a GLAAD reward for a reason. Look, making everyone playersexual makes things easier for Bioware and some players but actually having romanceable characters that are explicitly homosexual is still kind of important in this day and age, I would prefer that Bioware commits to 2/2/2. Besides, Bioware has a bad track record of just reusing the same animations for both genders when they go bi or playersexual. Looking at you Peebee.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 12, 2017 9:52:07 GMT
Inquisition got a GLAAD reward for a reason. Look, making everyone playersexual makes things easier for Bioware and some players but actually having romanceable characters that are explicitly homosexual is still kind of important in this day and age, I would prefer that Bioware commits to 2/2/2. Besides, Bioware has a bad track record of just reusing the same animations for both genders when they go bi or playersexual. Looking at you Peebee. No problem with bisexual key characters, the problem is the lame animation. This is quality vs sparing question. Of course cheaper to create only one animation... but disappointing and can often be insulting.
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eriador117
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 285 Likes: 464
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Post by eriador117 on Jun 12, 2017 18:48:03 GMT
I think I'd like set sexualities, but more of a choice of LI So I'd go for - 2 straight males, 2 straight females, 1 bi female, 1 bi male, 2 gay males, 2 gay women. But then that's like 10 characters, LOL! That way everyone gets a choice of 3 if my maths are right.
I recently played a male Lavellan and I really thought there was some UST between him and Solas on that run-through, but of course you can't romance Solas as male so it didn't go anywhere unless you use a mod and I play mostly on console. It was interesting that there is still some dialogue in the game about Cullen and Solas and Cullen being bi according to various websites. They must have run out of time on it.
I'm not sure I understand the race-gating for Solas though, as he doesn't consider the Dalish 'real' elves anyway, so would it have made a difference if he went for a human or dwarf?
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Jun 12, 2017 21:19:12 GMT
I think to Solas a "fake" elf is still better than a human, dwarf or qunari. I mean, I like Solas but in a lot of ways he's more racist than Sera, calling qunari savage creatures, humans short-sighted brutes and looking down on dwarves just because they can't see into the Fade. And there's the whole genocide thing he's planning...
That said, I do think he should have been bisexual if only because that would let male elf inquisitor learn about the slave tattoos.
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Post by Walter Black on Jun 12, 2017 22:40:45 GMT
I think to Solas a "fake" elf is still better than a human, dwarf or qunari. I mean, I like Solas but in a lot of ways he's more racist than Sera, calling qunari savage creatures, humans short-sighted brutes and looking down on dwarves just because they can't see into the Fade. And there's the whole genocide thing he's planning... That said, I do think he should have been bisexual if only because that would let male elf inquisitor learn about the slave tattoos. Or the Vallaslin revelation could have been available to Elven inquisitors who simply achieved friendship.
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Post by morir_a_solas on Jun 14, 2017 4:16:08 GMT
I rather they have a set orientation but don't mind that they are player sexual or even that they gate part of their story behind the romance as it seems kind of natural and gives you a reason to do other play throughs, I just don't like it when they change it from one to another half way through like with Jaal and Kaiden. It's a personal preference though, I like my LIs purely straight or purely gay because it breaks my immersion to see videos and stuff out online with the gender I didn't romance them with, especially for MEA where the other Ryder is your sibling, it makes me cringe (Back off Scott, Reyes is with Sara ) It's different going in knowing I need to filter some stuff out, than thinking I'm safe and finding some female inquisitor out there with Dorian.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 14, 2017 8:45:07 GMT
I rather they have a set orientation but don't mind that they are player sexual or even that they gate part of their story behind the romance as it seems kind of natural and gives you a reason to do other play throughs, I just don't like it when they change it from one to another half way through like with Jaal and Kaiden.It's a personal preference though, I like my LIs purely straight or purely gay because it breaks my immersion to see videos and stuff out online with the gender I didn't romance them with, especially for MEA where the other Ryder is your sibling, it makes me cringe (Back off Scott, Reyes is with Sara ) It's different going in knowing I need to filter some stuff out, than thinking I'm safe and finding some female inquisitor out there with Dorian. They should have been bisexuals from the beginning. What's your problem with the bisexuality? 1. bisexuality is valid. 2. I'm very sorry that this breaks your immersion.
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Post by morir_a_solas on Jun 14, 2017 11:29:23 GMT
I rather they have a set orientation but don't mind that they are player sexual or even that they gate part of their story behind the romance as it seems kind of natural and gives you a reason to do other play throughs, I just don't like it when they change it from one to another half way through like with Jaal and Kaiden.It's a personal preference though, I like my LIs purely straight or purely gay because it breaks my immersion to see videos and stuff out online with the gender I didn't romance them with, especially for MEA where the other Ryder is your sibling, it makes me cringe (Back off Scott, Reyes is with Sara ) It's different going in knowing I need to filter some stuff out, than thinking I'm safe and finding some female inquisitor out there with Dorian. They should have been bisexuals from the beginning. What's your problem with the bisexuality? 1. bisexuality is valid. 2. I'm very sorry that this breaks your immersion. I agree they should have been bisexual from the beginning, see if you read what I'm actually saying instead of trying to start a fight you'd see 1. I don't have a problem with bisexuality I do have a problem with characters being changed halfway through as fan service 2. Thank you, it is important to validate ppls feeling and not to dismiss them just because you might not share them
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Post by Catilina on Jun 14, 2017 11:34:34 GMT
They should have been bisexuals from the beginning. What's your problem with the bisexuality? 1. bisexuality is valid. 2. I'm very sorry that this breaks your immersion. I agree they should have been bisexual from the beginning, see if you read what I'm actually saying instead of trying to start a fight you'd see 1. I don't have a problem with bisexuality I do have a problem with characters being changed halfway through as fan service 2. Thank you, it is important to validate ppls feeling and not to dismiss them just because you might not share them This wasn't "fanservice"! You can keep your feelings for yourself. (You spoke about you prefer straight or gay LI-s, because the bi-LIs breaks your immersion. So you said, you have problem with LIs bisexuality.)
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Post by morir_a_solas on Jun 14, 2017 18:04:50 GMT
I agree they should have been bisexual from the beginning, see if you read what I'm actually saying instead of trying to start a fight you'd see 1. I don't have a problem with bisexuality I do have a problem with characters being changed halfway through as fan service 2. Thank you, it is important to validate ppls feeling and not to dismiss them just because you might not share them This wasn't "fanservice"! You can keep your feelings for yourself. (You spoke about you prefer straight or gay LI-s, because the bi-LIs breaks your immersion. So you said, you have problem with LIs bisexuality.) I did not say, you assumed. What I DID say was I don't have a a problem if they are playersexual. I am entitled to have a preference and I do, the same way everyone does just like you preferring m/m does not make you (hopefully) straight or bi phobic For the third time, I don't care if they're bi, but I don't like LIs to be changed for fan service, you know, when they were written one way and got changed just to please the fans Now, about Nitpicking parts of my comments and ignoring others to find an excuse to pick a fight or get offended, idk if you are trying to troll me or just get some attention but don't assume you know me or the way I think or even my own sexual preference over a comment on a forum about characters that don't exist Now you've wasted enough of my time with this joke, if you want to have a discussion and address our differences or see where the other is coming from you are welcome to IM me. If you are just bored, trolling or trying to invalidate anyone who doesn't have the same preference than you, then leave me alone I have no patience for assholes
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