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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 17, 2017 8:57:55 GMT
There's been a lot of talk about Anthem being a 'looter shooter' like The Division and Destiny. So I asked Division players what lessons they thought that BioWare (and its players) should learn from The Division with its upcoming launch of Anthem. I played The Division at launch but was not overcome by it, to be honest as I found it a little soulless. Maybe subsequent patches changed that, I don't know, maybe I'll load it up again. I'll share in this thread lessons from the last year of The Division that Division players think are particularly worth BioWare (and future players) taking away. If you also have played The Division, your insight would be welcome. Thank you.
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Post by jagaro on Jun 17, 2017 11:16:59 GMT
Played Beta and bought the season pass based on the description that alot of new content, namely story missions similar to the base game, were to be added for at least a year after release.
First the leveling up journey to level cap was quite fun but I never felt really involved in the story as your character was always mute but never contributed much beyond nodding and bullets.
After the final mission the game became a massive pain to do anything solo and sometimes as a group.
Enemies would scale way up on damage and health while player abilities were borked in the worst way making only 3 abilities out of 12 useful.
This was fixed about 7 months after launch.
Back to 'additional' content for a year. They were simply game modes within the game that while they could be fun had no bearing on the story and could get tedious after a time.
Ubisoft only kept a small dev team in place post launch with not much of a budget and they were always overwhelmed by the demands of the player base.
Nothing of substance is being added to Year 2 of the game as it seems their focused on other projects including Avatar and Division 2.
My advice to players:
Be prepared for a less in your face thrust of your character into the story.
Accept that the character creator for your human, if there is one, to be less substantial than previous Bioware titles but may be alot prettier. Also there will most likely be cosmetic dlc for your Javelin to buy.
There will be repeatable missions that will become the focus after any story missions are done.
Lots and lots of combat. Don't expect huge conversations but it will seem like so compared to the Division.
Hope for massive support post launch. Division didn't receive enough but Destiny did that is why Destiny is seen more of a success now while the Division was at best a 'financial' success.
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DonMarfil
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Post by DonMarfil on Jun 18, 2017 0:44:43 GMT
About me and The Division:
I've played >1200 hrs of The Division, mainly PvE, leveled 4 characters (actually 6) to lvl 30, occasionaly set a foot in the Dark Zone (PvP), and even got one toon to lvl 99, even killed some rogues, got sick of cheaters and the ugly PvP-mechanics there (chicken dance) and got disappointed how much Massive did about cheaters (i. e. nothing). Bought all DLCs so far, enjoyed only survival, got bored of the rest soon.
So, what could players learn for Anthem from The Division, assuming Anthem will be similar:
- play with friends (doh!), MMOs are much more worthwile when you are playing with peeps who know what they are doing - bring time, grinding in the Division takes lot of it - expect lot of shooting and less storytelling
What could Bioware learn from The Division, assuming Anthem will be similar:
- if there's PvP in it, deal with cheaters ONCE AND FOR ALL, players will appreciate it - if there's PvP make sure your engine doesn't support players to abuse some strange mechanics (chicken dance) - if there's PvP make sure you balance it, so most of the players may have fun with different loadouts (i know, there will always be a META, but please make PvP fun) - don't frustrate your playerbase with too much pointless RNG (that's a good one, eh?) - make sure to make lag a next to nothing factor in order to have a fun experience for the players - respond reasonably tho suggestions and hints from the playerbase on your own forums (ooops, that was another good one, i guess) - make sure raids/missions/whateveryoucallit are fun to play and not too repetitive - increasing "difficulty" by merely creating bullet-sponges is no fun, it's boring - make a reasonable offer to solo-players (i don't get it why people want to play solo in a co-op game, but there is a load of people demanding solo-content) - bring a good and plausible story - make ultrarares/exoticy/whateveryoucallit items and weapons worth their name. There is almost nothing more frustrating than getting another shitty "exotic" KneePads after 45 Minutes of legendary "Signal Lost". - test test test test test test test! Looking at you, 1.6.1 - be sure to fix obvious bugs in an appropriate time. Looking at you, revive bugs. - NPCs headshotting players from the other side of the map with a shotgun are no fun
there are actually some positive aspects that may be worth considering in my book:
- PTS are a good thing if you listen to your playerbase afterwards - shooting in The Division feels fun - many game modes may keep a game fresh - the crafting system is quite good, but make sure it's not pointless and players can actually craft something useful/better than they already have - graphics are beautiful - the gear-set system is quite fun - leveling to 30 was fun
wiil possibly add more if i get around to it.
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Post by tjmitchem on Jun 18, 2017 18:03:11 GMT
I've got about 1500 hours in The Division and have been playing since the beta. The Division is a game that has so much potential, but has failed to capitalize on it because of a number of issues. Let's ignore the whole PvP/"Dark Zone" mess for the moment. There were three expansions that were released over the course of a year: Underground, Survival and The Last Stand. Underground was a neat idea. Randomly generated missions that would play differently every time. The problem was a lack of sufficient building blocks to create the missions. There simply weren't enough areas to stitch together to provide sufficient variety. Given the number of missions necessary to hit max level, it got stale really fast. I only played Survival a couple of times, as that sort of mode doesn't interest me. I didn't touch The Last Stand at all, because PvP in The Division is basically a large chicken dance with Yakety Sax playing in the background. For a "cover based" shooter, there's precious little use of cover. Lessons that Anthem can learn from The Division: - Brutal RNG pisses people off. Don't do it
- Don't gate loot. It's great that a Legendary mission can reward an Exotic cache once a week, but what about the person who ran a mission one hundred times farming?
- If you're going to have PvP, it must be balanced separately from PvE
- Don't mix PvP and PvE in the same area. Seriously, just don't. You'll get a toxic area.
- Respect people's time playing the game. Not everyone has the time to play 3+ hours a day, but they still need to be rewarded for the effort they put in
- Content is king. There's only so many times people can run the same missions over and over again before they start burning out
As of now, I eagerly await patch 1.8 near the end of the year as it's supposed to have some actual new content in it. All that said, I've mostly enjoyed my time playing the game. It's how I found my clan
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Post by projectpatdc on Jun 19, 2017 5:51:42 GMT
The division was made by Ubisoft who really surprises me with some great titles but their games are plagued by rushed releases, weird mechanics, cut mechanics, and sacrifice in quality. I really enjoyed playing the division with my destiny crew, but it quickly became a bore and its flaws outweighed its strengths.
Where I think Anthem will be closer to the division in terms of open world gameplay and seemless strike type missions and exploration, I'm hoping for "Destiny" style quality in terms of gameplay mechanics.
Also, don't go expecting this game to be a masterpiece. I will be pleasantly surprised if it is. This type of game like destiny or the division is still in its infant phase which also makes it really exciting to see other games like Anthem and hope it improves the formula....mostly with better story telling
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Post by Pounce de León on Jun 19, 2017 14:14:23 GMT
... - if there's PvP in it, deal with cheaters ONCE AND FOR ALL, players will appreciate it ... Judging from the couple last AAA titles with online pvp multiplayer there seems to be litte capability and/or willingness to do so. Dice tries to automate anticheat - I guess it's just another cost factor that's just there to be slashed down.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2017 14:21:31 GMT
Heh, I would guess...
Be gud; start early; get into a premade; farm hard; quit early.
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Post by Hrungr on Jun 19, 2017 14:27:51 GMT
... - if there's PvP in it, deal with cheaters ONCE AND FOR ALL, players will appreciate it ... Judging from the couple last AAA titles with online pvp multiplayer there seems to be litte capability and/or willingness to do so. Dice tries to automate anticheat - I guess it's just another cost factor that's just there to be slashed down. Being a 3rd person shooter with some heavy weaponry I have a feeling there won't be PvP with Anthem... Not to say that they can't, but it doesn't feel geared that way. Plus (as you guys point out) all the hassles that come with trying to support PvP.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2017 14:38:54 GMT
Judging from the couple last AAA titles with online pvp multiplayer there seems to be litte capability and/or willingness to do so. Dice tries to automate anticheat - I guess it's just another cost factor that's just there to be slashed down. Being a 3rd person shooter with some heavy weaponry I have a feeling there won't be PvP with Anthem... Not to say that they can't, but it doesn't feel geared that way. Plus (as you guys point out) all the hassles that come with trying to support PvP. This being a suit game, they can do pretty much equal 1vs1 PvP, by putting everyone in the same suit (or suits) for the bashes and keeping the arena participants as segregated as possible before and after match, hiding the names, etc, so the experience is clinically-clean. Of course the proponents of gear based/special skills unlocks & measuring contests PvP won't like it. you can even do objective based teams if suits are non-modified, but that involves interactions, so immediately opens the can of worms with farming and destroying everyone's desire to even try when premmies are staking the pvp.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jun 19, 2017 14:44:32 GMT
Judging from the couple last AAA titles with online pvp multiplayer there seems to be litte capability and/or willingness to do so. Dice tries to automate anticheat - I guess it's just another cost factor that's just there to be slashed down. Being a 3rd person shooter with some heavy weaponry I have a feeling there won't be PvP with Anthem... Not to say that they can't, but it doesn't feel geared that way. Plus (as you guys point out) all the hassles that come with trying to support PvP. Ye, I also don't really see much on the track record for that from Bioware.
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Post by Heimdall on Jun 19, 2017 15:02:25 GMT
Being a 3rd person shooter with some heavy weaponry I have a feeling there won't be PvP with Anthem... Not to say that they can't, but it doesn't feel geared that way. Plus (as you guys point out) all the hassles that come with trying to support PvP. Ye, I also don't really see much on the track record for that from Bioware. I've also been thinking that this could be incongruous with the tone their going for, an "Anthem" being about people joined in common cause and all. Admittedly, the idea of players launching artillery barrages across the map at one another is kinda cool.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2017 15:38:22 GMT
Ye, I also don't really see much on the track record for that from Bioware. I've also been thinking that this could be incongruous with the tone their going for, an "Anthem" being about people joined in common cause and all. Admittedly, the idea of players launching artillery barrages across the map at one another is kinda cool. It could always be the training/competition format in the lore for 1 vs 1, and the suits available for it will be separate from what you upgrade and wear in-game, so you won't be annihilating with barrage or one-shooting someone.
I think the separate set of suits can enable the forms of Pvp I enjoyed the most in the past: - capture the flag games on a fairly low levels of characters, so the # of abilities and cc is not overwhelming, and some classes do not pull ahead too much. I really like the objectives, but not overly complex ones. Pass the flag, keep the node, that’s sort of things
- 1 vs 1 arena – tbh I loved it even when it was completely uneven due to “special abilities” and class balance crap, even when I was losing a lot. Even half-ass matchmaking can put me with characters that were in my ball-park so I did not just get annihilated in one move & could put up a fight, and my name was hidden and I got to play against different people, I am game, lol.
I never really got on board of team death matches, b/c I really don’t like people’s attitudes when losing. I don’t mind losing, and just love the thrill of it, so 1 vs 1 is imo the way to go, because if I lose, and the other guy is still mean/upset, he needs help that gaming cannot provide.
I have never experienced large OW sieges, but my understanding is that with large scale sieges it is rarely actually fun.
I’ve been in some mid-sized OW objectives sort of stuff, when folks try to mess up with killing the bosses & it can be entertaining, but in the games where rewards matter, it’s hard to see where fun turns into frustration when you spent two hours duking it out and got nothing to show for it but a broken weapon bill.
I dunno, I think they can actually make a fair PvP mode, but I doubt people will play it, because at a guess folks like advantage and winning; and really hate losing, more than just playing for funsies.
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Post by Heimdall on Jun 19, 2017 20:15:23 GMT
By all means, if they have PvP, I think it should be structured like Destiny, a mode separate from the open world in dedicated arenas. I think that works better and I think the Destiny devs had a good point about wanting players in the open world to see each other as allies.
Assuming there are other players in the open world.
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Post by deebo305 on Jun 20, 2017 17:50:33 GMT
As someone who played The Division up until the Survival DLC, I will say this. BE A SHOOTER 1st & RPG 2nd
I'm sure someone on BSN want to crucify me for that statement but this is hurt The Division the most,emenies and high level players in the Dark Zone could become nearly unkillable because their number were slightly better than yours. I say takes some cue from Destiny one this and let the guns do the talking and not the +5 health stat in most situations
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Post by ShadowAngel on Jun 20, 2017 23:02:39 GMT
As someone who played The Division up until the Survival DLC, I will say this. BE A SHOOTER 1st & RPG 2ndI'm sure someone on BSN want to crucify me for that statement but this is hurt The Division the most,emenies and high level players in the Dark Zone could become nearly unkillable because their number were slightly better than yours. I say takes some cue from Destiny one this and let the guns do the talking and not the +5 health stat in most situations Will that be an issue if there's no pvp to Anthem? I hope there's no pvp (not because I dislike pvp, I play a ton of ovp games).
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Post by deebo305 on Jun 21, 2017 0:06:24 GMT
As someone who played The Division up until the Survival DLC, I will say this. BE A SHOOTER 1st & RPG 2ndI'm sure someone on BSN want to crucify me for that statement but this is hurt The Division the most,emenies and high level players in the Dark Zone could become nearly unkillable because their number were slightly better than yours. I say takes some cue from Destiny one this and let the guns do the talking and not the +5 health stat in most situations Will that be an issue if there's no pvp to Anthem? I hope there's no pvp (not because I dislike pvp, I play a ton of ovp games). If there is no PvP then this won't be an issue because Build focused action RPG actually benefits from this system but when you take that and put it in PvP then the balance becomes a mess and you'll end up with players not wanting to touch PvP until they feel their characters have good enough numbers This hurts the replayability and longevity of the game, which is why Destiny could last 3 years with their barebones approach because the PvP crowd we're always happy minus a few gripes like Sniping Shotgunners
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Post by laudable11 on Jun 21, 2017 1:24:41 GMT
If Anthem has anything that resembles The Dark Zone I'm out. The DZ is garbage, stay away from that shitty design choice at all cost.
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