Logain Mac Tir Thread - "The traitor Teyrn. Yes. I've heard all the names"

Loghain in the arms of Mac Tir.

Weren't Howe and Beraht both dead due to battle wounds though? In those cases there wasn't a conscious decision to spare or kill them. And Aeducan doesn't have to kill Bhelen if they choose him to be King though. If Bhelen dies it's because the warden chooses Harrowmont to be King and Bhelen initiates battle and consequently dies from his wounds. Loghain is different from all of these because, like Zevran, his wounds in the battle against the warden aren't severe enough to kill him immediately. That's why these two characters even get judgement scenes.

To make him a Grey Warden, not really means forgiving, rather practical. This is a duty, not a release. Just a postponed execution, and he can be useful, even if doesn't sacrifice himself at the Archdemon. He's an experienced soldier, commander and strategist.

Wow, with this one question, you have really rocked my world. I honestly never thought of it that way.

I'm not entirely sure it applies, though. Loghain was judged an asset to the Wardens and Rendon...I'm not sure he would've been. Nobody seemed to regard him as a particularly good leader, he wasn't known for his fighting prowess, etc. So, like, when I think of my Mahariel or Surana who were both "the Wardens do what the Wardens must", I don't even see why they would take Howe, either. And I don't see Howe as accepting of 'atonement', either. Can you honestly see Rendon Howe, saying "please, I have done so much wrong, let me do one last thing right"? As such, I'm not sure it's a perfect parallel.

That said, it's a question really does put things in a really difficult perspective.

I'm not talking about the actual events where each of those characters are involved. This is a purely hypothetical scenario where Warden Cousland would have to choose between killing Howe or making him a Grey Warden. Same goes for the other examples. Wouldn't s/he be offended by the very idea?

No necessarily. The Blight must be defeated. I'm sure at some point in the game everyone's warden has said, "I'll take whatever help against the Blight I can get," when recruiting Zevran for instance. And let's face it, for a man like Loghain, becoming a Warden is a death sentence. 

Okay, I played through the game with a 'redeemed' Loghain in my party for final battle. Loghain claims that he only did what he truly believed was best for Ferelden. So let's run down the list.

Abandon his king to save his army. - Checks out. I can actually praise him for this.

Dispose his daughter because Ferelden needs a strong ruler. - Checks out. Not praiseworthy, but it checks out.

Sell the Elves into slavery because the Alienage is lost anyway, and what's a few Elves against a whole nation. - Evil, but checks out.

Blame the Grey Wardens for betraying the king and ban them. - No. Sorry. If you truly believe you did what was best for the nation , own it, don't blame others. The only way to justify assassinating the only two remaining Grey Wardens is if you truly believe that the ENTIRE Grey Warden sect is plotting against Ferelden. Maybe he did, but this is a maybe at best.

Hire assassins to kill the remaining Grey Wardens. - Again this only works if you believe ALL Grey Wardens are plotting against Ferelden. This is the action of a villain trying to eliminate witnesses, not of a Noble making difficult decisions.

Conclusion: Loghain may have truly believed that only he could keep Ferelden safe, but his actions remain villainous, if not treasonous, and history is full of traitors who believed they were acting for the Greater Good.

I just did the Landsmeet for the third time last night as a Cousland and had trouble deciding Loghain's fate.  On the one hand I agree with Alistair he betrayed Cailan, and the Wardens.  Many who trusted him died at Ostagar.  Plus he was dealing in slavery.  On the other hand I agree with Anora, he is/was a hero and a patriot.  I am sure  my Cousland and yours was raised on stories of Loghain's heroism and cleverness.  In the end he had Howe's support.  A man my Cousland and yours cannot forgive.  So when the time came I sided with Alistair and refused Riordan's offer.  I killed Loghain after a hard one on one fight.  This was the second time out of three that I killed him.  Both times was as a Cousland.  My mage let him live and become a Grey Warden.  But my Cousland cannot forgive Howe and when he saw Howe beside Loghain it made him think , it was Loghain who gave the order.  After all Loghain is a cunning strategist and this could have been apart of the plan, since Bryce was a supporter of King Cailan. 

So in the end is never easy for me to decide.  I really like his characters and their are only a few in gaming that made me feel that way.  But I do know for certain that if I play a city or Dalish elf, Loghain is going down without hesitation.

Cause, I wanted to see what would happen, since in the previous playthrough I executed him.  Also in the two playthroughs that I've executed him it was personally done by my Cousland.  Can't trust Alistair with such a task.   Also my Amell at the time wanted Loghain's tactical genius in the battles to come.

The only Wardens of mine who spared Loghain were ones who were marrying Anora.

Damn! Gonna need a Greater Warmth Balm for that burn.

I would call it Karma!! She made a very selfish decision with the dark ritual. It is normal that she will eventually pay the price for that. After what she did to my cousland, it is pay-back ! On the other side I love her development in DAI. My Inquizz has no problem with her for example.