I'd rather be Mordin Solus
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Aug 9, 2017 18:26:57 GMT
'People of Walmart' is a thing? ok... BSN must be getting relaxed, 16 pages of this and not yet burnt down... I hope you're not suggesting the post should be locked because it is controversial. That would be truly dismaying. Gaming is changing. Fast. Woman and other genders want in. Fine. It's up to this generation to decide how the change should come about. The question, then, is how do we satisfy everyone. Let's talk about it. Don't pretend hetero male fear/anger is not an issue. It is. A big one. Bioware is one of the first companies to try to make the change happen. They executed it clumsily and have paid the price. Where does it go from here?
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Post by SofaJockey on Aug 9, 2017 18:28:44 GMT
Nope, largely interesting discussion so far, it was a compliment to posters for holding it together...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 18:31:09 GMT
'People of Walmart' is a thing? ok... It is indeed. I would advise to not clicky the linky.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 9, 2017 18:34:56 GMT
So I have a question: Who would determine what is "attractive enough"? After all everyone has different things they are attracted to, many of those in conflict with others.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 18:44:19 GMT
So I have a question: Who would determine what is "attractive enough"? After all everyone has different things they are attracted to, many of those in conflict with others. That would be the heart of the problem and an impossible one to solve at that.
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Post by suikoden on Aug 9, 2017 18:51:29 GMT
So I have a question: Who would determine what is "attractive enough"? After all everyone has different things they are attracted to, many of those in conflict with others. If you have to ask yourself if someone is attractive enough, they're not attractive enough. Like Sara Ryder, and to a lesser extent, her bro. Sara's original representation before they hit her with the ugly stick would have been considered attractive and would've avoided all of the memes.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 9, 2017 18:52:58 GMT
So I have a question: Who would determine what is "attractive enough"? After all everyone has different things they are attracted to, many of those in conflict with others. If you have to ask yourself if someone is attractive enough, they're not attractive enough. Like Sara Ryder, and to a lesser extent, her bro. Sara's original representation before they hit her with the ugly stick would have been considered attractive and would've avoided all of the memes. Sara Ryder is very pretty to me and I'm going to play as her in a new play through.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 18:53:37 GMT
On topic: I would argue that a balance needs to be struck between sexy characters (both men and women, mind you) and the type of individuals that appear on People of Walmart.If you ask me, I would say that sexy men and women should be a part of gaming because gaming is escapism at its very core. It's all fantasy. I see enough people that make me retch internally on a daily basis irl and I don't really want to experience that translating into my escapist media. I agree with that, as long as males and female avatars are both presented in the same style outfits to present them as sexy. If females show skin, so should men, instead of females all being mages in stockings and babydolls, and males all mighty hulks in cool looking armors and capes. It is this dissonance in assuming how a player sees a sexy man or a sexy woman that I do notice, as well as very limited and repetitive selection where the ethnicity of the sexualized characters is concerned per gender.
For example, in a game I quote fairly often, the Blade and Soul, despite an incredible intricacy and creative look of the outfits, literally all female version of the outfits turned pants and boots/sandals into stockings and high heels. There was only one or two outfits that bared men's chests, usually just showing off arms, while exaggerating the size and bounce of female breasts' to the point the game was nicknamed Boobs and Soul. W3 corrects for EE style of wet dreams, but skews the objectification the same way, as there is no shortage of screenshots of heavily made-up, spill-over cleavage females with flowing manes, while literally every picture of a male character from the Polish Drool Factory is some old ugly dude in a fairly realistic costume.
The mix of exceptional and commonplace, of dressed to impress with richness and originality of the costume, imposing armor, and, when character appropriate, the sleaze for both genders is what would appeal more to me. A powerful woman should wear a power outfit, not show up in something designed for a local bordello.
And, most certainly, I want a variety of outfits available to the PCs, b/c it equally frustrates me when my mage is dressed for hours in a grey robe covering her from chin to toe next to Isabela, and when my tank uses her shield in an eclectic ensemble with lacy panties, five inch heels and a metalwork bra.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 9, 2017 18:54:05 GMT
So I have a question: Who would determine what is "attractive enough"? After all everyone has different things they are attracted to, many of those in conflict with others. If you have to ask yourself if someone is attractive enough, they're not attractive enough. Like Sara Ryder, and to a lesser extent, her bro. Sara's original representation before they hit her with the ugly stick would have been considered attractive and would've avoided all of the memes. Attraction is a subjective thing. To you someone may not be attractive enough, but to another person they are the most attractive person on the planet. Both views are equally valid.
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Post by suikoden on Aug 9, 2017 18:56:50 GMT
If you have to ask yourself if someone is attractive enough, they're not attractive enough. Like Sara Ryder, and to a lesser extent, her bro. Sara's original representation before they hit her with the ugly stick would have been considered attractive and would've avoided all of the memes. Attraction is a subjective thing. To you someone may not be attractive enough, but to another person they are the most attractive person on the planet. Both views are equally valid. Traditionally attractive then. Tits and ass and pecs and abs and biceps, chiseled jaws, etc. Thats what sells. Sara Ryder types do not. Maybe to some, but not the masses.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 19:00:35 GMT
Attraction is a subjective thing. To you someone may not be attractive enough, but to another person they are the most attractive person on the planet. Both views are equally valid. Traditionally attractive then. Tits and ass and pecs and abs and biceps, chiseled jaws, etc. Thats what sells. Sara Ryder types do not. Maybe to some, but not the masses. Sara Ryder has dat booty doe...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 9, 2017 19:00:49 GMT
Attraction is a subjective thing. To you someone may not be attractive enough, but to another person they are the most attractive person on the planet. Both views are equally valid. Traditionally attractive then. Tits and ass and pecs and abs and biceps, chiseled jaws, etc. Thats what sells. Sara Ryder types do not. Maybe to some, but not the masses. Traditionally attractive is also subjective. For example since you mentioned breasts, many people like women with big breasts and many people like women with smaller breasts. Likewise there are many who like muscular men but many others like not as muscular men. All are attractive to lots of people.
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Post by Vall on Aug 9, 2017 19:03:13 GMT
Attraction is a subjective thing. To you someone may not be attractive enough, but to another person they are the most attractive person on the planet. Both views are equally valid. pecs and abs and bicepsGross Okay, I may be only one in that opinion but still...gross
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 9, 2017 19:04:05 GMT
They clearly do - not sure what there is to argue about. Hot women and macho/muscular men. Sex sells. So does violence. Look at Wonder Woman. But who but assorted dummies would care if it turned out that the film was hot garbage? It's a fair bet that the movie actually being very good is what kept its momentum.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 19:05:19 GMT
On topic: I would argue that a balance needs to be struck between sexy characters (both men and women, mind you) and the type of individuals that appear on People of Walmart.If you ask me, I would say that sexy men and women should be a part of gaming because gaming is escapism at its very core. It's all fantasy. I see enough people that make me retch internally on a daily basis irl and I don't really want to experience that translating into my escapist media. I agree with that, as long as males and female avatars are both presented in the same style outfits to present them as sexy. If females show skin, so should men, instead of females all being mages in stockings and babydolls, and males all mighty hulks in cool looking armors and capes. It is this dissonance in assuming how a player sees a sexy man or a sexy woman that I do notice, as well as very limited and repetitive selection where the ethnicity of the sexualized characters is concerned per gender.
For example, in a game I quote fairly often, the Blade and Soul, despite an incredible intricacy and creative look of the outfits, literally all female version of the outfits turned pants and boots/sandals into stockings and high heels. There was only one or two outfits that bared men's chests, usually just showing off arms, while exaggerating the size and bounce of female breasts' to the point the game was nicknamed Boobs and Soul. W3 corrects for EE style of wet dreams, but skews the objectification the same way, as there is no shortage of screenshots of heavily made-up, spill-over cleavage females with flowing manes, while literally every picture of a male character from the Polish Drool Factory is some old ugly dude in a fairly realistic costume.
The mix of exceptional and commonplace, of dressed to impress with richness and originality of the costume, imposing armor, and, when character appropriate, the sleaze for both genders is what would appeal more to me. A powerful woman should wear a power outfit, not show up in something designed for a local bordello.
And, most certainly, I want a variety of outfits available to the PCs, b/c it equally frustrates me when my mage is dressed for hours in a grey robe covering her from chin to toe next to Isabela, and when my tank uses her shield in an eclectic ensemble with lacy panties, five inch heels and a metalwork bra.
Agree on most, but I would argue that men are seen as sexy in a different way from women.
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Post by bigbad on Aug 9, 2017 19:05:22 GMT
Attraction is a subjective thing. To you someone may not be attractive enough, but to another person they are the most attractive person on the planet. Both views are equally valid. Traditionally attractive then. Tits and ass and pecs and abs and biceps, chiseled jaws, etc. Thats what sells. Sara Ryder types do not. Maybe to some, but not the masses. My only MEA playthrough was as Sara. I can assure you that whatever problems she may have had, T&A were not among them.
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Post by suikoden on Aug 9, 2017 19:06:10 GMT
Traditionally attractive then. Tits and ass and pecs and abs and biceps, chiseled jaws, etc. Thats what sells. Sara Ryder types do not. Maybe to some, but not the masses. Traditionally attractive is also subjective. For example since you mentioned breasts, many people like women with big breasts and many people like women with smaller breasts. Likewise there are many who like muscular men but many others like not as muscular men. All are attractive to lots of people. Honestly, it probably boils down to attractive faces. Something every single female model in Andromeda lacks.
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 9, 2017 19:06:22 GMT
Traditionally attractive then. Tits and ass and pecs and abs and biceps, chiseled jaws, etc. Thats what sells. Sara Ryder types do not. Maybe to some, but not the masses. My only MEA playthrough was as Sara. I can assure you that whatever problems she may have had, T&A were not among them. Ironically, something FemShep had less of.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 19:06:40 GMT
Traditionally attractive is also subjective. For example since you mentioned breasts, many people like women with big breasts and many people like women with smaller breasts. Likewise there are many who like muscular men but many others like not as muscular men. All are attractive to lots of people. Honestly, it probably boils down to attractive faces. Something every single female model in Andromeda lacks. PeeBee's face is quite attractive, imo. Except for that ridiculous eye black smear...
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Post by vonuber on Aug 9, 2017 19:06:57 GMT
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 9, 2017 19:08:38 GMT
Traditionally attractive is also subjective. For example since you mentioned breasts, many people like women with big breasts and many people like women with smaller breasts. Likewise there are many who like muscular men but many others like not as muscular men. All are attractive to lots of people. Honestly, it probably boils down to attractive faces. Something every single female model in Andromeda lacks. I dunno. Suvi's kinda cute methinks.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 19:09:02 GMT
If you have to ask yourself if someone is attractive enough, they're not attractive enough. Like Sara Ryder, and to a lesser extent, her bro. Sara's original representation before they hit her with the ugly stick would have been considered attractive and would've avoided all of the memes. Sara is just fine though: Maybe it is because it is a still image, but her eyes still look kinda dead inside.
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Post by suikoden on Aug 9, 2017 19:09:04 GMT
If you have to ask yourself if someone is attractive enough, they're not attractive enough. Like Sara Ryder, and to a lesser extent, her bro. Sara's original representation before they hit her with the ugly stick would have been considered attractive and would've avoided all of the memes. Sara is just fine though: That's because you had to create an appearance for her that is more attractive than the stock Sara Ryder. That's actually kind of sad that you are better at this than bioware. But that's also why I see people use the template you used for her face over and over again. Because it's one of the only attractive options.
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Post by vonuber on Aug 9, 2017 19:11:10 GMT
That's because you had to create an appearance for her that is more attractive than the stock Sara Ryder. That's actually kind of sad that you are better at this than bioware. But that's also why I see people use the template you used for her face over and over again. Because it's one of the only attractive options. But you said: Honestly, it probably boils down to attractive faces. Something every single female model in Andromeda lacks. So you have to include that as being unattractive.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 9, 2017 19:12:01 GMT
I remember Cora being compared to Dominique Rinderknecht, who was a Miss Switzerland, before MEA was released as well with people thinking she was the face model. So apparently even beauty pageant contestants aren't attractive enough now.
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