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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 21:11:10 GMT
So, for me every game I've played pretty much starts with that making my character and picking a name, and bonding with him or her. I want to try a different kind of a game later this year, so I was wondering how do you bond with a character that is not yours and you cannot change (and do you?) and do you feel weird talking about your game with other players if all of them play exactly the same character as you do, same name, same looks? Or do you just not talk about it?
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Post by Lazarillo on Aug 17, 2017 3:30:34 GMT
Well, for me, even in games where I can create the characters, I don't ever really play "me". That said, I enjoy them the same way I might enjoy a book, or a movie. I can empathize with a character even if I didn't decide what parts of the character were empathetic to me. And sometimes, it's not really about getting into the lead character anyway, it's just about using their perspective into the game's world and story. Although, again, that tends to be how I see my personally-created characters, too, so I'm not sure how useful that is, sorry.
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Post by Sweet FA on Aug 17, 2017 3:58:17 GMT
Yes, It's the old book dynamic thing. It's a similiar kind of buying process, obviously when you choose to read a book it's usually because you like the sound of the story, it's genre, setting or because the character resonates with you and has an interesting bio/back story. It's the same for me. Strong stories and interesting characters, good dialogue, interactions are my must have requirements, everything else is secondary.
It's easier in an good RPG than in a more linear action game. Any RPG worth it's salt should have a multiplicity of real and different choices available eg. virtuous/pragmatic/renegade to allow you to put your own spin on a protagonist. The more freedom of choice and more importantly freedom of morality you have the easier it is. It becomes more problematic when devs restrict the choices to slightly different shades of virtuous options, which is completely unrealistic, we seldom have these positive options in real life. When developers go all control-freak regarding morality this restricts your freedom of action. This completely misses the point of an RPG and essentially takes the RP out of an RPG.
So the more natural and human the choices i.e flawed, the easier I find it is to tweak and role play the protagonist as a unique personality type. This also offers more replayability as you can you go back and play it with a different personality/morality. I don't find super paragon types to be very credible or sympathetic. I've yet to meet a completely saintly individual in the real world but I meet plenty of sinners every day.
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Post by melbella on Aug 17, 2017 4:01:00 GMT
Are you talking about RPGs only or any kind of game? I cut my teeth on adventure/puzzle games before getting into RPGs later, so I kinda got used to playing "nameless, faceless, random button-pusher that NPCs interact with (or don't)." Games like that are more like reading a book since pretty much the same thing happens in every PT - there's no variation except maybe the order you do things in. But often that isn't the case either since X won't open until Y is done.
I remember years and years ago when I first discovered Usenet and all the people out in the world talking about books I had read, books that allowed me to be in my own little world away from the real one. It was incredibly jarring to realize that all those people out there had shared the same world as me and knew the same things about it that I did. It almost felt like they were invading my private world.
Gaming now is more interactive, even just SP games. I don't spend much time talking about games other than Bioware's 'cause those are the ones I've spent the most time with in recent years. As long as the story is good and entertaining (and the combat doesn't make me want to ) then how much control I have over the PC isn't a big issue for me.
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 17, 2017 8:12:47 GMT
I don't think I've bonded with a character by creating him or her and making up a personality in recent years. With the advent of voiced protagonists, I've found too often that I can't properly express the personality I came up with during the course of the game, so I tend to not bother anymore. For example, I wanted to play the DAI Inquisitor as a gruff religious zealot, but the bland voice acting and writing stopped me in my tracks. Not much bonding happened.
What gets me attached to characters or groups of characters is what happens to them during gameplay. I feel much closer to an XCOM2 squad that had several epic battles and survived by the skin of their teeth, even if every soldier is just randomly generated by the game, than to a voiced protagonist of an AAA rpg that doesn't let me express the personality I envisioned. XCOM2 still gives its generated soldiers personality with voice acting and psychological traits.
The characters I bonded with most in recent years were those that had good, contextual banter during gameplay that reflected their personalities. Some games do a really good job at this, and the only moment BioWare ever came close to that was the banter between Shepard and Liara during Lair of the Shadow Broker. No, I didn't get to pick their banter, but it made for a very enjoyable gameplay scene, it practically made be feel the bond between them and by extension, their bond to me. Good combat and good banter to go with it is what makes me bond with characters as well as memorable conversations.
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 17, 2017 10:16:09 GMT
I don't think I've bonded with a character by creating him or her and making up a personality in recent years. With the advent of voiced protagonists, I've found too often that I can't properly express the personality I came up with during the course of the game, so I tend to not bother anymore. For example, I wanted to play the DAI Inquisitor as a gruff religious zealot, but the bland voice acting and writing stopped me in my tracks. Not much bonding happened. What gets me attached to characters or groups of characters is what happens to them during gameplay. I feel much closer to an XCOM2 squad that had several epic battles and survived by the skin of their teeth, even if every soldier is just randomly generated by the game, than to a voiced protagonist of an AAA rpg that doesn't let me express the personality I envisioned. XCOM2 still gives its generated soldiers personality with voice acting and psychological traits. The characters I bonded with most in recent years were those that had good, contextual banter during gameplay that reflected their personalities. Some games do a really good job at this, and the only moment BioWare ever came close to that was the banter between Shepard and Liara during Lair of the Shadow Broker. No, I didn't get to pick their banter, but it made for a very enjoyable gameplay scene, it practically made be feel the bond between them and by extension, their bond to me. Good combat and good banter to go with it is what makes me bond with characters as well as memorable conversations. Yes, like Garcia "Murder Hobo" the Shinobi that "had to learn how to do it", or that Yuri Bonafide guy, who picked up a buddy who bled out and extracted him in the nick of time on the turn he'd die. That's what makes anonymous characters special. Memorizable moments. Epic moments. Sad Moments. Those things. "Murder Hobo" kinda sucked until I got the hang of it. In the end Garcia won the playthrough by easily dispatching two objectives in the last fight in a single turn.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Aug 17, 2017 12:44:58 GMT
I can empathize with characters i didn't create just like i can empathize with other people.
Some aspects of the characters will draw you closer to them. Others will push you away. Just like with people in real life.
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Post by jaison1986 on Aug 17, 2017 12:50:07 GMT
I believe in the polar opposite to be honest. I have a much harder time developing attachment to characters without a fixed personality or background. The Inquisitor is a prime example. Someone that you start from the ground up with barely a background to explore. A character I know little about and without a clear personality to explore is incredibily dull. Dante from devil may cry for one is a character I very much like. He has a interesting personality and distinct role in the world. He feel like he "belongs". I'm not sure if what I said was very clear, but I can't explain it any better
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 13:34:01 GMT
I always thought that this was why I played games, because they are not like books, in that I was the one that made the hero. I guess, if I like the character I can pretend that s/he is mine or something?
Do you look at the main character, how s/he looks, the background etc before picking the game, or just get the game and hope you will like the lead you are playing?
Have you played a game where you did not like someone else's lead? What was it like?
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Post by Vortex13 on Aug 17, 2017 13:36:42 GMT
Like others have said, I tend to play as things that I am not in real life. To me, its just plain old boring to try and recreate myself except I'm in a fantasy or sci-fi world. In my experience some of the more "restrictive" titles lacking character creation have actually had more variety to them, especially when the game doesn't restrict playable options to what can be found in CC sliders; though granted those types of games aren't really found in the RPG genre. For those titles with a fixed protagonist, I approach them like I would a book, or to go with an even more prepubescent example of playing with toys or other forms of make believe, I tend to find the character or aspect of the setting I like and focus on that. In running around as a child playing superheroes I would often pick the hero I found the most interesting/cool rather than trying to make up my own; which in my case was usually Venom or Carnage if I was in a Marvel mood or Robin if I was in a DC mood
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Aug 17, 2017 14:09:56 GMT
I didn't start with RPGs, my first game was Wolfenstein which was a 2D look down simple shooting game with simple objective; shoot bad guys, rescue the good guys. It wasn't many years later after a few FPS games that I graduated to RPG like BG and NWN. The games are like animated interactive story books to me, brought alive visually and vocally. I never bonded with any chars in the games I've played, be they FPS, RPG, RTS, ADV, etc.
The closest to a bond, in my case, I'd say is keen interest in the development of the char's story. So far, there're only two of all the games I've played; April Ryan and FemShep.
Before, there was no Twitch or YT so everything depended on the presentation on the boxes and the premise of the story. Brand also comes into play; Star Wars. Recommendation by friends is another. I don't buy based on how a game char looks.
Today, it's still the same except that now there are ways to check out the games before purchase. My criterion remains the same; story, gameplay, visuals.
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Post by Hawke on Aug 17, 2017 15:31:56 GMT
I always thought that this was why I played games, because they are not like books, in that I was the one that made the hero. I guess, if I like the character I can pretend that s/he is mine or something? Do you look at the main character, how s/he looks, the background etc before picking the game, or just get the game and hope you will like the lead you are playing? Have you played a game where you did not like someone else's lead? What was it like? I don't bond with avatars as I normally don't bond with, for example, keyboards. Fixed pre-made avatars are bearable as long as I can control its actions (e.g. movement, attacks, dialogue choices). If the actions are enjoyable/interesting/meaningful/allowing self-expression, then all is well. If a character uses something sharp, then, most likely, I can use the character as my avatar. So, it is more about genre of a game, than about an avatar. Yes. I strongly disliked protagonists in Prototype 2, DmC and Assassin's Creed 4: Black Flag, because their actions were usually completely different from mine and it was enough to make playthroughs not-fun (the greatest challenge was not thinking about how annoying the protagonist was and focusing on opponents). I did beat those games for the sake of objectivity, but I would not recommend it. The opposite was with Final Fantasy XIII, where the protagonist, Lightning, was relatable, but the game itself was linear grindfest (and having other temporary protagonists was unpleasant).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 16:03:08 GMT
Okay, I guess, I am on the right track checking ahead then that I will like the lead. Maybe they don't call him by name often, or I can give him a private secret name or something, that only I would know.
Just to clarify, I do not really appreciate character creation b/c of self insertion, or to play someone like me, it's because I create a character I want to see as the lead, so it is specifically unlike any other work of fiction where I have no choice but to follow someone else's characters.
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Post by AnDromedary on Aug 17, 2017 16:04:30 GMT
I pretty much see games (at least the ones I like) more as an extension to a movie then anything else. Maybe that's because I started out with gaming with a lot of movie adaptations (a really early Jurrassic Park game and a lot of Star Trek adventures). The whole Character Editor stuff only really came up later, when games got complex enough to allow for these sorts of shenanigans. I think the first time I got to use a CC to really make a character look like I wanted was in Oblivion? (I don't think even Morrowind had that yet? Not sure anymore). So I guess if you started gaming in the 90s, you kinda had to be used to the fact that characters weren't your own, really. And I can appreciate that. After all, it's fun to play and be someone different, I can be myself in RL . And there have been great Characters out there to get to know through games. Cutter Slade from Outcast, the nameless hero from the Gothic series, Elayna from The Wheel of Time game (a lost gem, IMO), Sam Fisher from Splinter Cell, Altair and Ezio from the Asassins Creed series, Lara Croft from the Tomb Raider series, April Ryan from The Longest Journey, Geralt from the Witcher series or also Commander Shepard from the Mass Effect series (you can make them look different and choose some details about their background but they are a fairly fixed character in most respects) just to name a few. For most of those there is some wiggle room, especially if you can choose dialogue options but part of the fun for me is to get to know them (mostly through their VAs but more recently, with better animation also through their body language) and figure out how to best immerse myself in their role. In fact, for RPGs or third person games or cutscene and dialogue heavy games especially, I prefer not to see myself as the character. I believe that is what the entire perspective is all about, to experience it like a movie. There are games where I play as myself to some extent. Mostly RTS games, where the entire interface is meant to make you feel like you are really commanding a vast army. Command & Conquer comes to mind, which even starts with a General addressing you - the commander - personally "Commander, are you receiving this? Good." But otherwise, no, sometimes, even in games that are meant to draw me in as playing myself I invent a character that I will play that is most definitely not myself. When Star Citizen comes out for example, I'll probably come up with an entire seperate backstory for my character, so that I can externalize them to some extent and be someone different while I am in the game. For me, that is the fun of it, to be someone different for a time and slipping into another role, just like an actor.
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Post by CHRrOME on Aug 17, 2017 16:06:10 GMT
You mean like The Witcher for instance? You are Geralt and he has his own personality that you cannot change. You do have dialogue options, but they move around Geralt's way of saying things. It's just basic role playing I guess, you pretend you are the character, you pretend you are Geralt in this case. It's not hard to me, in fact in many occasions I see it as an advantage honestly to have a pre made character with a personality of his own, instead of me trying to pretend some character I know I'm not, and the game won't let me be.
Take Skyrim or any other ES for instance, you create your character yes, you make it look whatever the heck you want it to look like, and then you still have 2 dialogue options per encounter anyways, you cannot be that character you want to be anyways, you still have to do the same quests over and over and over. It just frustrates me, I try to act in a specific way, but the game still has that binary choice of either A or B, so why bother? Most games don't let you be that character you wanna be, they only allow you to customize looks, and to be honest I couldn't care less about looks if there's no soul to it. At least with a pre made "hero" the story goes around seamlessly, you don't have to worry about doing things your way because you're impersonating a pre made character with pre made choices on a pre made story. You don't struggle at every choice as you do if you have that false sense of customization with games that allow you to spend 3 hours on a character creator.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 20:38:18 GMT
No, I have never struggled with choices not being available, or not much. As long as the choice of something was there, I was pretty happy.
I started gaming with Baldur's Gate 1, and the reason I preferred playing games over watching movies was specifically because I made a character, and the game supplied adventures for this character. I just don't know if I'd rather watch a movie then if the game does no let me create my hero/ine. Not me, but the lead for that story, that I have created, I want to see do all that stuff and save this or that world. Looks are important to me, I really don't like playing a character whose look is boring or I don't like, and most fixed leads look not the way I want, I always want to change something.
It just seems to kill the only advantage a game has over a movie & take away the main reason I play games as my preferred form of digital entertainment?
I dunno, maybe it is going be waste of money to buy it then.
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Post by Cyonan on Aug 17, 2017 20:50:38 GMT
It depends on why I'm playing the game.
In a game like Counter-Strike I'm playing it for the gameplay and I don't care what my character looks like.
For RPGs I tend to just find a few traits I identify with, not unlike when reading a book. It's just a bit easier when you have some level of control over the actions the main character takes, and the more variation in those actions the easier it is.
An interesting story and good gameplay mechanics also help keep me invested in any game.
The thing for me is that no matter if the game is like The Witcher or Deus Ex with a pre-defined character or a BioWare game with a character creator, I'm going to be limited to a handful of options in any given encounter anyway. The only characters I ever feel are truly my own are the ones I play in tabletop roleplaying games, since due to a GM being present I can take any action I want to so long as I'm prepared to live with the consequences.
For me Shepard was never my character. They're just a character that I had a bit more control over who they were than I do Geralt or Adam Jensen.
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Post by o Ventus on Aug 17, 2017 21:54:05 GMT
The same way I get into any kind of non-video game media. Or in the same way that I come to like characters who are not my own created avatar in games with character creation. Literally, you just find the characters with traits that you like, whether it be in their writing, their voice, or their visual design. Or any combination of factors.
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Post by phoray on Aug 17, 2017 22:15:22 GMT
I like Harvestmoon 64. Even though I play a male farmer, I get to choose what area of farming to focus on (veggies/fruit vs animals ) and what wife to have a future baby with. Although, the romance arcs are pretty short, you have to give them gifts (they have preferences) and know where they hang out, and there is even like, a little personal quest for them where you get to know them better before you propose with a Blue Feather. Then each potential wife has different things they like doing on the farm to help out. Like... The Lady who works at the Bakery will pick up eggs for you. I like it so much I bought a N64 and that game is the only one I own for the console. Even in FF7, my favorite part was picking which party member to take on the Amusement Park Ride. (Although I'll probably never play it again, I played it like 7 times in my childhood and ugh turn based) In Witcher (and in it's prior iterations), you can pick from 2-3 limited romance options as well as 2-3 political factions. (rebels, neutral, humans is how I label them in my head.) Although TW3 seems to have gotten into this country vs that country and the mystery of and relationship you had with your adopted daughter. Although the rebels vs humans wasn't as prominent in TW3, Geralt definitely had an opinion about things that you go to express by siding with one or the other during smaller missions. And even though I couldn't change his ugly mug, I could change his HAIR. And I utilitized that RP opportunity. When something sad happened in game, I let him get quite messy looking with a beard and his hair unkempt. But when he was happier and settled with his Lady (I went with Yenn) I took him to the Barber and tidied him right up (no hair, pony tail, free hair and beard are all options). So, in that way, I RPed emotions through hair style. There was also a Ladies Estsablishment so that when Triss rejected him (I knew she would unless he declared his undying love) I had him take a visit to blow off steam and embrace being un burdened by a relationship he'd felt tied to after the first two games (which I didn't play, but I was aware that Triss was in game canon until Game 3). I recently branched out with Horizon Zero Dawn, which I loved. It was a female protaganist is mostly what drew me. Its story arc has little flexibility but it is a story I connected to very strongly. There were some dialogue choices sporadic through the game, and although men expressed interest in the protaganist, the protaganist straight up said she was too busy saving the world to be doing stuff like that (at one point). Fans reacted very positively to that, and asked the developers if there would be romance later. Their response in the interview I saw was that if the fans really really strongly call for it, they may look into the option although that hadn't been the plan. I hope they do go that way. In the end, the lack of romances and story flexibility severely hurts replay value for me BUT the battle mechanics are a JOY and there is also the pleasure of "re reading a good story". I wouldn't re "read" a video game story unless the mechanics of battle weren't a hastle. But battle in HZD is really good. In Geralt's case, I have interest in playing a second time to polish a Canon before probably leaving it alone forever (I don't like the battle mechanics much). In his case, I felt like he was roughly 40-50% "my" version of his character, but the other 60% will always be the dry deadpan sarcastic wit of Geralt. In Aloy's case (HZD) There is no canon to polish (as no story branches exist-- well. Outcomes of some side characters can vary), but the world is very interesting and the battle mechanics lovely, the music to my taste. But I'm waiting for DLC before playing a second time so I don't feel like it's 100% a re read. At most, she is probably 5-10% "my" version of her character. RP was very limited. The fact that she is already female, agnostic/atheist, and smart... attractive without being sexualized...also really helps me play again, because that's the sort of Female Protag I like to play anyway. I guess, the short of it, is that if I can express preferences in both politics AND romance with at least a moderate degree of dialogue control, I'll enjoy a game enough to feel like, even if it wasn't MY character, it was my version of said character. I'm looking forward to Greedfall regardless of the fact they force me to play a male for the romances, the political factions, and that magic chick with whatever that monster was (an ent?) was really intriguing. I'll still wait to see what reviews say and watch a Let's play on youtube. I'm looking forward to Detroit: Become Human although I've not heard of ANY romances, but because they've been screaming story branching options since the moment I heard of it. Story branching must mean dialogue options. I think you play a male the first half the game and a female the second half. But again, reviews and LEt's plays help confirm a decision. And I've been thinking about the cost of games vs entertainment hours given. I paid $45 for MEA and played 108 hours. that's 50c an hour of entertainment. It'll only become even cheaper cents per entertainment given as I play some more. In HZD's case, I was lazy and wanted instant gratifaction so I paid full price at Wall mart. $70, I think. I played that for somewhere between 65-80 hours.= around a buck per hour of entertainment (and I was very entertained with HZD) So what if I don't play more than once if I enjoyed it the first time? I'm not going to find very many $1/hour of entertainment given options on the market-- certainly not $20 for two at the movies for 2 hours = $5/hour of entertainment.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 12:27:51 GMT
Thanks for everyone's thoughts and shared experiences on the matter!
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Post by SofaJockey on Aug 18, 2017 15:42:47 GMT
I don't self-insert.
Whether I play Ryder or Geralt, I 'direct' the events rather than inhabit them. It's why I much prefer 3rd person, and when I have a choice I play female to further underline that I'm not playing as 'me'...
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guest@proboards.com
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 17:15:19 GMT
I don't self-insert. Whether I play Ryder or Geralt, I 'direct' the events rather than inhabit them. It's why I much prefer 3rd person, and when I have a choice I play female to further underline that I'm not playing as 'me'... Why do the folks assume that creating your own lead character = self-insert?
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SofaJockey
Not a jockey. Has a sofa.
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sofajockey
SofaJockey
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Post by SofaJockey on Aug 18, 2017 17:21:46 GMT
I don't self-insert. Whether I play Ryder or Geralt, I 'direct' the events rather than inhabit them. It's why I much prefer 3rd person, and when I have a choice I play female to further underline that I'm not playing as 'me'... Why do the folks assume that creating your own lead character = self-insert? Not sure, I'm sure many are happy to create their own lead characters. Depends on to what extent the game will let you.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Lavochkin on Aug 18, 2017 19:38:10 GMT
Not hard to get into a character I didn't make as long as s/he and the game itself are engaging and enjoyable, even if there's no choices involved.
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Post by bmwcrazy on Aug 22, 2017 20:28:18 GMT
If it's a good game, I'll play it. Even if you don't get a customized character.
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