linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 23, 2020 23:09:10 GMT
so let me make sure I'm understanding you: a pro qun iron bull talking up the virtues of the Qun is a bad thing? Not wanting to name names but I think its fair to say that most ideologies, political and religious, would be talking up their own belief systems. At least iron bull mentions in banter that he recognizes that the Qun isn't going to be for everyone (and Sera would have her mind broken to boot) If Iron Bull is supposed to be on the cusp on an ideological crisis where a nudge from the Inquisitor is all it takes to go Tal Vashoth? Yes. Remember, he was going to get himself "reeducated" before getting this assignment. He supposedly harbors doubts about the Qun, though all he really talks about in a negative fashion is the war on Serheon. Can you tell me what doubts, aside of being tired of seeing friends die in war, that he has about the Qun? Camaraderie outside of the Qun perhaps? Psychologically, Iron Bull reminds me of someone who is written to kind of be...well, brainwashed, for the lack of a better term. Folks who are deprogamed from such reinforcement often find justifications because they are codependent on it. In this case, I think Iron Bull is codependent on the Qun being 'right or just' in his way of thinking. So him more or less using the Qun to justify actions or beliefs, pro or otherwise, is part of his own reinforcement of his behavior. This, of course, is being challenged by living so far away from the Qunari. The Chargers, Krem, all of those folks in his outfit provide perspectives that he would use the Qun to neatly fit into a logical place to justify what he thinks he is, in this case, a believer in the Qun, instead of reinforcing it. It's like the difference between echo chambers or not; you got a diverse set of friends with multiple beliefs, or you got a set of friends who think exactly like you. The latter is comfort but may be cult-like, the former is challenging to navigate and often difficult to deal with.. A lot of folks think Bull has gone native already when the game starts, but I suspect that it is moreso Bull slowly accepting outside points of view over the Qun that is really going on here, and the choice between the Qun and his Chargers is emblematic of the conflict; do we blindly follow beliefs or do we follow what we truly care for? At least, in one perspective this may be the case.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 24, 2020 1:04:05 GMT
Given the awful things that Bull's likely to have done in his career, he's got a powerful incentive to never even think about whether or not the Qun is good, if he can avoid doing so.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Aug 24, 2020 16:45:52 GMT
If Iron Bull is supposed to be on the cusp on an ideological crisis where a nudge from the Inquisitor is all it takes to go Tal Vashoth? Yes. Remember, he was going to get himself "reeducated" before getting this assignment. He supposedly harbors doubts about the Qun, though all he really talks about in a negative fashion is the war on Serheon. Can you tell me what doubts, aside of being tired of seeing friends die in war, that he has about the Qun? Camaraderie outside of the Qun perhaps? Psychologically, Iron Bull reminds me of someone who is written to kind of be...well, brainwashed, for the lack of a better term. Folks who are deprogamed from such reinforcement often find justifications because they are codependent on it. In this case, I think Iron Bull is codependent on the Qun being 'right or just' in his way of thinking. So him more or less using the Qun to justify actions or beliefs, pro or otherwise, is part of his own reinforcement of his behavior. This, of course, is being challenged by living so far away from the Qunari. The Chargers, Krem, all of those folks in his outfit provide perspectives that he would use the Qun to neatly fit into a logical place to justify what he thinks he is, in this case, a believer in the Qun, instead of reinforcing it. It's like the difference between echo chambers or not; you got a diverse set of friends with multiple beliefs, or you got a set of friends who think exactly like you. The latter is comfort but may be cult-like, the former is challenging to navigate and often difficult to deal with.. A lot of folks think Bull has gone native already when the game starts, but I suspect that it is moreso Bull slowly accepting outside points of view over the Qun that is really going on here, and the choice between the Qun and his Chargers is emblematic of the conflict; do we blindly follow beliefs or do we follow what we truly care for? At least, in one perspective this may be the case. That may be true. And I could buy that. But the thing is he never ARTICULATES that (and TIB is VERY articulate, especially for a Qunari) I've even said in the past how the Charges would all totally fail under the Qun, given what we know about them (they are all unwilling to conform to societal expectations of them) But that fact seems lost to him.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 24, 2020 16:47:23 GMT
Given the awful things that Bull's likely to have done in his career, he's got a powerful incentive to never even think about whether or not the Qun is good, if he can avoid doing so. Again, that's something I can totally get into. But it's never something he reflects on. One would think this si something that would be brought up, at least after the choice was made. Preferably before. But the ONLY act that seemed to give him doubt is one incident where he lost control in battle.
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linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 25, 2020 17:36:42 GMT
Camaraderie outside of the Qun perhaps? Psychologically, Iron Bull reminds me of someone who is written to kind of be...well, brainwashed, for the lack of a better term. Folks who are deprogamed from such reinforcement often find justifications because they are codependent on it. In this case, I think Iron Bull is codependent on the Qun being 'right or just' in his way of thinking. So him more or less using the Qun to justify actions or beliefs, pro or otherwise, is part of his own reinforcement of his behavior. This, of course, is being challenged by living so far away from the Qunari. The Chargers, Krem, all of those folks in his outfit provide perspectives that he would use the Qun to neatly fit into a logical place to justify what he thinks he is, in this case, a believer in the Qun, instead of reinforcing it. It's like the difference between echo chambers or not; you got a diverse set of friends with multiple beliefs, or you got a set of friends who think exactly like you. The latter is comfort but may be cult-like, the former is challenging to navigate and often difficult to deal with.. A lot of folks think Bull has gone native already when the game starts, but I suspect that it is moreso Bull slowly accepting outside points of view over the Qun that is really going on here, and the choice between the Qun and his Chargers is emblematic of the conflict; do we blindly follow beliefs or do we follow what we truly care for? At least, in one perspective this may be the case. That may be true. And I could buy that. But the thing is he never ARTICULATES that (and TIB is VERY articulate, especially for a Qunari) I've even said in the past how the Charges would all totally fail under the Qun, given what we know about them (they are all unwilling to conform to societal expectations of them) But that fact seems lost to him. Sure, but does he really have to articulate that? Most of the chargers might be screwed under the Qun, but this is part of the codependency, Bull is rationalizing that the team wouldn't because he does care for them. He is contradicting himself and doesn't realize its a contradiction...at least, not yet, because of that codependency. Kind of like how KKK members who have African-american friends rationalize their codependency of their racist beliefs by saying 'my friend is the exception to the rule' or something similar. ETA: Bull when he goes Tal-Vashoth doesn't feel lost in the end because of the support network he has. He almost feels regret though that he is now Tal-Vashoth, if you notice. He doesn't really have to say why though, but he will turn out for the better for it, arguably, because of this.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 25, 2020 19:27:43 GMT
That may be true. And I could buy that. But the thing is he never ARTICULATES that (and TIB is VERY articulate, especially for a Qunari) I've even said in the past how the Charges would all totally fail under the Qun, given what we know about them (they are all unwilling to conform to societal expectations of them) But that fact seems lost to him. Most of the chargers might be screwed under the Qun, but this is part of the codependency, Bull is rationalizing that the team wouldn't because he does care for them. He is contradicting himself and doesn't realize its a contradiction...at least, not yet, because of that codependency. Kind of like how KKK members who have African-american friends rationalize their codependency of their racist beliefs by saying 'my friend is the exception to the rule' or something similar. ETA: Bull when he goes Tal-Vashoth doesn't feel lost in the end because of the support network he has. He almost feels regret though that he is now Tal-Vashoth, if you notice. He doesn't really have to say why though, but he will turn out for the better for it, arguably, because of this. If it's to be part of his character development: yes. Otherwise his ultimate decision to stay with the Qun or go Tal-Vashoth becomes meaningless. It's just a random choice that affects a few War Table missions (at least until Tresspasser) If there's to be a struggle between the Qun that he was raised to believe in and defend, and his friends and experiences living outside of it, then we should actually experience some of that, shouldn't we? Shouldn't there be some build-up to the moment of truth? What I wouldn't have given to have some more discussions with him like you could with Sten. And hear the responses from someone who's experiencing doubts about the Qun...
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Post by colfoley on Aug 25, 2020 23:22:03 GMT
Sure, but does he really have to articulate that?Most of the chargers might be screwed under the Qun, but this is part of the codependency, Bull is rationalizing that the team wouldn't because he does care for them. He is contradicting himself and doesn't realize its a contradiction...at least, not yet, because of that codependency. Kind of like how KKK members who have African-american friends rationalize their codependency of their racist beliefs by saying 'my friend is the exception to the rule' or something similar. ETA: Bull when he goes Tal-Vashoth doesn't feel lost in the end because of the support network he has. He almost feels regret though that he is now Tal-Vashoth, if you notice. He doesn't really have to say why though, but he will turn out for the better for it, arguably, because of this. If it's to be part of his character development: yes. Otherwise his ultimate decision to stay with the Qun or go Tal-Vashoth becomes meaningless. It's just a random choice that affects a few War Table missions (at least until Tresspasser) If there's to be a struggle between the Qun that he was raised to believe in and defend, and his friends and experiences living outside of it, then we should actually experience some of that, shouldn't we? Shouldn't there be some build-up to the moment of truth? What I wouldn't have given to have some more discussions with him like you could with Sten. And hear the responses from someone who's experiencing doubts about the Qun... I got that build up in talking with him and his interactions with the Inquisitor, the Chargers, and in party banter. Though you are right about it perhaps being a poor decision to have the Inquisitor make the choice for him remember, as a Qunari, he is used to have other people making the choices for him. Though alas it would've been an interesting decision story wise if he rejected or accepted that choice later on based on certain other factors in the game. Maybe RPGs will start having that level of complexity soon.
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Post by NotN7 on Aug 25, 2020 23:50:20 GMT
If it's to be part of his character development: yes. Otherwise his ultimate decision to stay with the Qun or go Tal-Vashoth becomes meaningless. It's just a random choice that affects a few War Table missions (at least until Tresspasser) If there's to be a struggle between the Qun that he was raised to believe in and defend, and his friends and experiences living outside of it, then we should actually experience some of that, shouldn't we? Shouldn't there be some build-up to the moment of truth? What I wouldn't have given to have some more discussions with him like you could with Sten. And hear the responses from someone who's experiencing doubts about the Qun... I got that build up in talking with him and his interactions with the Inquisitor, the Chargers, and in party banter. Though you are right about it perhaps being a poor decision to have the Inquisitor make the choice for him remember, as a Qunari, he is used to have other people making the choices for him. Though alas it would've been an interesting decision story wise if he rejected or accepted that choice later on based on certain other factors in the game. Maybe RPGs will start having that level of complexity soon. K, see if I can get this right? I believe Iron Bull at that point was looking towards a friend (at least I believe him and the Inquiz where friends at that point) to help him decide on an course of action as mentioned he was always told what to do In the long run short run he knew what to do and that was to kill and protect . 
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Post by colfoley on Aug 25, 2020 23:59:31 GMT
I got that build up in talking with him and his interactions with the Inquisitor, the Chargers, and in party banter. Though you are right about it perhaps being a poor decision to have the Inquisitor make the choice for him remember, as a Qunari, he is used to have other people making the choices for him. Though alas it would've been an interesting decision story wise if he rejected or accepted that choice later on based on certain other factors in the game. Maybe RPGs will start having that level of complexity soon. K, see if I can get this right? I believe Iron Bull at that point was looking towards a friend (at least I believe him and the Inquiz where friends at that point) to help him decide on an course of action as mentioned he was always told what to do In the long run short run he knew what to do and that was to kill and protect . Essentially. Though you do bring up an interesting angle to this to. What if the Bull and the Inquisitor weren't friends because of DAIs approval system. It would make asking for that choice a bit more sketchy in that context since Iron Bull would have no reason to trust the Inquisitor over anyone else. I would like BioWare to get to the point though where your companions end up making these kinds of decisions on their own without the protagonist making it for them. I think the next evolution of the companion quest/ loyalty mission will be at the end of it the sqad mate will be faced with a moral connundrum then based on how you have interacted with them, the choices you have made as a character, and having them watch how you do other minor decisions regarding to their quests up to that point then they make the decision. In other words you can influence them but the final choice will be theirs. We have already seen BioWare start to experiment with this sort of thing in Inquisition and Andromeda...with mixed results. In the Schmooples thread we are actually talking about the Leiliana choice where she can become hardened or not and while the choices leading up to that are a bit chagrin worthy it is still worth pointing out that she can essentially ignore your orders/ advice to kill what's her face depending on what her morality is. And while its been a long time since I've played Andromeda I do believe things similar to this also pop up with Jaal and Drack.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 26, 2020 14:56:51 GMT
K, see if I can get this right? I believe Iron Bull at that point was looking towards a friend (at least I believe him and the Inquiz where friends at that point) to help him decide on an course of action as mentioned he was always told what to do In the long run short run he knew what to do and that was to kill and protect . Essentially. Though you do bring up an interesting angle to this to. What if the Bull and the Inquisitor weren't friends because of DAIs approval system. It would make asking for that choice a bit more sketchy in that context since Iron Bull would have no reason to trust the Inquisitor over anyone else. I would like BioWare to get to the point though where your companions end up making these kinds of decisions on their own without the protagonist making it for them. I think the next evolution of the companion quest/ loyalty mission will be at the end of it the sqad mate will be faced with a moral connundrum then based on how you have interacted with them, the choices you have made as a character, and having them watch how you do other minor decisions regarding to their quests up to that point then they make the decision. In other words you can influence them but the final choice will be theirs. We have already seen BioWare start to experiment with this sort of thing in Inquisition and Andromeda...with mixed results. In the Schmooples thread we are actually talking about the Leiliana choice where she can become hardened or not and while the choices leading up to that are a bit chagrin worthy it is still worth pointing out that she can essentially ignore your orders/ advice to kill what's her face depending on what her morality is. And while its been a long time since I've played Andromeda I do believe things similar to this also pop up with Jaal and Drack. The original Walking Dead game did that. Going into the final episode, there's a number of characters who might or might not go with you to find Clem after she disappears. Whether they do or not depends on a number of choices made and how you treated them since you met them. One character, Kenny, is with you from almost the beginning of the game and, as one developer put it "there was a lot of math going on when he makes his choice"
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Post by biggydx on Aug 26, 2020 15:36:18 GMT
Essentially. Though you do bring up an interesting angle to this to. What if the Bull and the Inquisitor weren't friends because of DAIs approval system. It would make asking for that choice a bit more sketchy in that context since Iron Bull would have no reason to trust the Inquisitor over anyone else. I would like BioWare to get to the point though where your companions end up making these kinds of decisions on their own without the protagonist making it for them. I think the next evolution of the companion quest/ loyalty mission will be at the end of it the sqad mate will be faced with a moral connundrum then based on how you have interacted with them, the choices you have made as a character, and having them watch how you do other minor decisions regarding to their quests up to that point then they make the decision. In other words you can influence them but the final choice will be theirs. We have already seen BioWare start to experiment with this sort of thing in Inquisition and Andromeda...with mixed results. In the Schmooples thread we are actually talking about the Leiliana choice where she can become hardened or not and while the choices leading up to that are a bit chagrin worthy it is still worth pointing out that she can essentially ignore your orders/ advice to kill what's her face depending on what her morality is. And while its been a long time since I've played Andromeda I do believe things similar to this also pop up with Jaal and Drack. The original Walking Dead game did that. Going into the final episode, there's a number of characters who might or might not go with you to find Clem after she disappears. Whether they do or not depends on a number of choices made and how you treated them since you met them. One character, Kenny, is with you from almost the beginning of the game and, as one developer put it "there was a lot of math going on when he makes his choice" As you've stated, I think they want to get to that point, but I wonder if the scope and companion sizes of their *more recent* games tend to get in the way of giving them said autonomy. |
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linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 26, 2020 16:39:24 GMT
K, see if I can get this right? I believe Iron Bull at that point was looking towards a friend (at least I believe him and the Inquiz where friends at that point) to help him decide on an course of action as mentioned he was always told what to do In the long run short run he knew what to do and that was to kill and protect . Essentially. Though you do bring up an interesting angle to this to. What if the Bull and the Inquisitor weren't friends because of DAIs approval system. It would make asking for that choice a bit more sketchy in that context since Iron Bull would have no reason to trust the Inquisitor over anyone else. I would like BioWare to get to the point though where your companions end up making these kinds of decisions on their own without the protagonist making it for them. I think the next evolution of the companion quest/ loyalty mission will be at the end of it the sqad mate will be faced with a moral connundrum then based on how you have interacted with them, the choices you have made as a character, and having them watch how you do other minor decisions regarding to their quests up to that point then they make the decision. In other words you can influence them but the final choice will be theirs. We have already seen BioWare start to experiment with this sort of thing in Inquisition and Andromeda...with mixed results. In the Schmooples thread we are actually talking about the Leiliana choice where she can become hardened or not and while the choices leading up to that are a bit chagrin worthy it is still worth pointing out that she can essentially ignore your orders/ advice to kill what's her face depending on what her morality is. And while its been a long time since I've played Andromeda I do believe things similar to this also pop up with Jaal and Drack. They tried the scaling of that though in Dragon Age 2, and folks seemed to hate it because it was on a scale and beyond your control. Personally, I would prefer the friendship/rival system from 2 to return because it felt like the most accurate representation of conflicting group dynamics ive ever seen in an RPG, with an adequate payoff at the end to boot.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 26, 2020 17:01:02 GMT
Essentially. Though you do bring up an interesting angle to this to. What if the Bull and the Inquisitor weren't friends because of DAIs approval system. It would make asking for that choice a bit more sketchy in that context since Iron Bull would have no reason to trust the Inquisitor over anyone else. I would like BioWare to get to the point though where your companions end up making these kinds of decisions on their own without the protagonist making it for them. I think the next evolution of the companion quest/ loyalty mission will be at the end of it the sqad mate will be faced with a moral connundrum then based on how you have interacted with them, the choices you have made as a character, and having them watch how you do other minor decisions regarding to their quests up to that point then they make the decision. In other words you can influence them but the final choice will be theirs. We have already seen BioWare start to experiment with this sort of thing in Inquisition and Andromeda...with mixed results. In the Schmooples thread we are actually talking about the Leiliana choice where she can become hardened or not and while the choices leading up to that are a bit chagrin worthy it is still worth pointing out that she can essentially ignore your orders/ advice to kill what's her face depending on what her morality is. And while its been a long time since I've played Andromeda I do believe things similar to this also pop up with Jaal and Drack. They tried the scaling of that though in Dragon Age 2, and folks seemed to hate it because it was on a scale and beyond your control. Personally, I would prefer the friendship/rival system from 2 to return because it felt like the most accurate representation of conflicting group dynamics ive ever seen in an RPG, with an adequate payoff at the end to boot. How? It made no sense. Why would characters support or even be in relationships with someone who is against everything they hold dear? |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 26, 2020 17:02:04 GMT
I got that build up in talking with him and his interactions with the Inquisitor, the Chargers, and in party banter. Though you are right about it perhaps being a poor decision to have the Inquisitor make the choice for him remember, as a Qunari, he is used to have other people making the choices for him. Though alas it would've been an interesting decision story wise if he rejected or accepted that choice later on based on certain other factors in the game. Maybe RPGs will start having that level of complexity soon. K, see if I can get this right? I believe Iron Bull at that point was looking towards a friend (at least I believe him and the Inquiz where friends at that point) to help him decide on an course of action as mentioned he was always told what to do In the long run short run he knew what to do and that was to kill and protect . You have to have high friendship with The Iron Bull to start his personal quest. |
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Aug 26, 2020 17:08:12 GMT
Essentially. Though you do bring up an interesting angle to this to. What if the Bull and the Inquisitor weren't friends because of DAIs approval system. It would make asking for that choice a bit more sketchy in that context since Iron Bull would have no reason to trust the Inquisitor over anyone else. I would like BioWare to get to the point though where your companions end up making these kinds of decisions on their own without the protagonist making it for them. I think the next evolution of the companion quest/ loyalty mission will be at the end of it the sqad mate will be faced with a moral connundrum then based on how you have interacted with them, the choices you have made as a character, and having them watch how you do other minor decisions regarding to their quests up to that point then they make the decision. In other words you can influence them but the final choice will be theirs. We have already seen BioWare start to experiment with this sort of thing in Inquisition and Andromeda...with mixed results. In the Schmooples thread we are actually talking about the Leiliana choice where she can become hardened or not and while the choices leading up to that are a bit chagrin worthy it is still worth pointing out that she can essentially ignore your orders/ advice to kill what's her face depending on what her morality is. And while its been a long time since I've played Andromeda I do believe things similar to this also pop up with Jaal and Drack. They tried the scaling of that though in Dragon Age 2, and folks seemed to hate it because it was on a scale and beyond your control. Personally, I would prefer the friendship/rival system from 2 to return because it felt like the most accurate representation of conflicting group dynamics ive ever seen in an RPG, with an adequate payoff at the end to boot. I liked the attempt, and it had some good ideas, but ultimately it was unworkable, as it simply forced the player to farm blue points or red points rather than simple approval.
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linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 26, 2020 17:13:08 GMT
They tried the scaling of that though in Dragon Age 2, and folks seemed to hate it because it was on a scale and beyond your control. Personally, I would prefer the friendship/rival system from 2 to return because it felt like the most accurate representation of conflicting group dynamics ive ever seen in an RPG, with an adequate payoff at the end to boot. How? It made no sense. Why would characters support or even be in relationships with someone who is against everything they hold dear? Because it better captures the complexity of relationships, for one. Secondly, it gives a justifiable reason why people you don't agree with are working with you. The most extreme characters in the game, like Fenris and Anders, showed dimensions to their character without changing the CORE of the character fully. That to me was one of the strengths of the writing in Dragon Age 2, and the system they created to match it was, in my opinion, its best mechanical design choice. The only downside may be characters that are too extreme or gregarious to make the choices obvious for friend/rival points, and the need for 75-100% one way or another for rewards in the relationship can be tweaked, I feel. Otherwise though, I found it to be a solid addition that I wish they expanded on.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 26, 2020 17:25:31 GMT
How? It made no sense. Why would characters support or even be in relationships with someone who is against everything they hold dear? Because it better captures the complexity of relationships, for one. Secondly, it gives a justifiable reason why people you don't agree with are working with you. The most extreme characters in the game, like Fenris and Anders, showed dimensions to their character without changing the CORE of the character fully. That to me was one of the strengths of the writing in Dragon Age 2, and the system they created to match it was, in my opinion, its best mechanical design choice. The only downside may be characters that are too extreme or gregarious to make the choices obvious for friend/rival points, and the need for 75-100% one way or another for rewards in the relationship can be tweaked, I feel. Otherwise though, I found it to be a solid addition that I wish they expanded on. It didn’t do any of that though, at least in practice. Why would Anders help a Hawke who is oppressing mages at every turn? Why would Aveline help a Hawke that is a scourge on the city’s people? Why would Merrill help a Hawke that constantly disrespects and opposes her people and decisions? And so on and so forth. Even more so for the romances where they sleep with them. |
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linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 26, 2020 18:20:44 GMT
Because it better captures the complexity of relationships, for one. Secondly, it gives a justifiable reason why people you don't agree with are working with you. The most extreme characters in the game, like Fenris and Anders, showed dimensions to their character without changing the CORE of the character fully. That to me was one of the strengths of the writing in Dragon Age 2, and the system they created to match it was, in my opinion, its best mechanical design choice. The only downside may be characters that are too extreme or gregarious to make the choices obvious for friend/rival points, and the need for 75-100% one way or another for rewards in the relationship can be tweaked, I feel. Otherwise though, I found it to be a solid addition that I wish they expanded on. It didn’t do any of that though, at least in practice. Why would Anders help a Hawke who is oppressing mages at every turn? Why would Aveline help a Hawke that is a scourge on the city’s people? Why would Merrill help a Hawke that constantly disrespects and opposes her people and decisions? And so on and so forth. Even more so for the romances where they sleep with them. The same reason people have friends who they don't like for opposing views. People are complex. The phenomenon of full extremes is often hard to navigate because that is when we lose someone we care for, and a lot of people don't want to go down that path unless it's absolutely necessary. It actually says something when Anders decides to go the most extreme at the games climax, even in a romance scenario its hard for me to let him live after what he did. Others, however, feel differently. Anders would help Hawke because the are a means to an end, or a friend he is trying to show the light to. Aveline would help Hawke because they owe them for their life now, or begrudgingly admit they care for them. Merrill would help Hawke because they are alone and don't know who to trust, or find compassion and understanding from them. These are just general reasons, but again the point being made is that the complexity of working against your personal beliefs and interests without sacrificing them is what I want to see intact. As much as I hate to say it, games tend to spoil us because they make everything black and white in terms of personality and expectations of how we follow them. Plus, more to the point of this conversation, I can't think of a more mature scenario where you have characters who hate you, but are either dependent, need or want to be on your side for reasons beyond your control. Until a breaking point...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 26, 2020 18:32:38 GMT
It didn’t do any of that though, at least in practice. Why would Anders help a Hawke who is oppressing mages at every turn? Why would Aveline help a Hawke that is a scourge on the city’s people? Why would Merrill help a Hawke that constantly disrespects and opposes her people and decisions? And so on and so forth. Even more so for the romances where they sleep with them. The same reason people have friends who they don't like for opposing views. People are complex. The phenomenon of full extremes is often hard to navigate because that is when we lose someone we care for, and a lot of people don't want to go down that path unless it's absolutely necessary. It actually says something when Anders decides to go the most extreme at the games climax, even in a romance scenario its hard for me to let him live after what he did. Others, however, feel differently. Anders would help Hawke because the are a means to an end, or a friend he is trying to show the light to. Aveline would help Hawke because they owe them for their life now, or begrudgingly admit they care for them. Merrill would help Hawke because they are alone and don't know who to trust, or find compassion and understanding from them. These are just general reasons, but again the point being made is that the complexity of working against your personal beliefs and interests without sacrificing them is what I want to see intact. As much as I hate to say it, games tend to spoil us because they make everything black and white in terms of personality and expectations of how we follow them. Plus, more to the point of this conversation, I can't think of a more mature scenario where you have characters who hate you, but are either dependent, need or want to be on your side for reasons beyond your control. Until a breaking point... There's a difference between being with someone with different political views and being with someone who is actively working against you and your interests. Anders: Hawke isn't a means to an end when they are constantly helping lock up or exterminate mages. Aveline: As a guard, her priority is towards the people so those feelings wouldn't ghet in the way is Hawke is oppressing them. That or she is a terrible corrupt guard who should be removed. Merrill: Her goal is to help her people and fix the mirror. If Hawke was opposing her in that, she would leave to do it by herself like she did her clan. Not still go ask for help only to be continually hampered. And again, this becomes even more ridiculous when it comes to the romances. Sure, Isabela might still sleep with Hawke since even though she hates them maybe they're great in the sack, but others like Merrill make no sense considering how they feel about the topic. None of the characters in DA2 fit those three things you mentioned. You can like it if you want, but for me it was absolutely idiotic and I'm glad they abandoned it. Hopefully it remains left in the past. Or at the very least if they do use it again it needs to be one of two systems. One is approval/disapproval and one friendship/rivalry, so the rivalry can be more like a regular rivalry and not "I hate everything about you, but sure let's do everything together." which would be the approval/disapproval.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 26, 2020 18:43:02 GMT
How? It made no sense. Why would characters support or even be in relationships with someone who is against everything they hold dear? Because it better captures the complexity of relationships, for one. Secondly, it gives a justifiable reason why people you don't agree with are working with you. The most extreme characters in the game, like Fenris and Anders, showed dimensions to their character without changing the CORE of the character fully. That to me was one of the strengths of the writing in Dragon Age 2, and the system they created to match it was, in my opinion, its best mechanical design choice. The only downside may be characters that are too extreme or gregarious to make the choices obvious for friend/rival points, and the need for 75-100% one way or another for rewards in the relationship can be tweaked, I feel. Otherwise though, I found it to be a solid addition that I wish they expanded on. This is why I think friendship.rivalry was a good idea at least in theory. It's the fact that you had to max out a blue or red meter that was its undoing. I would not be upset if they ever went backed to the system and tried to add a bit more complexity to it.
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Post by Frost on Aug 26, 2020 19:21:52 GMT
I disliked the friendship/rivalry system in DA2. Some people might have relationships where they agree to disagree or have friendly debates. However, the system made that be the case for every companion on every issue. It ended up making it seem like nothing was very important to the companions. This was especially egregious for Anders. I think Anders should have left an antimage Hawke. There should have been an earlier breaking point where that relationship was over, even as a rivalry. Not all companions would need a breaking point, but some would if an issue was extremely important to them.
The other issue is sometimes a companion would become stuck in neutral. For me this happened with Fenris unless I planned out the missions very carefully. This happened because my character was promage but antislavery, and so the points would cancel each other out.
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Post by NotN7 on Aug 26, 2020 21:07:30 GMT
K, see if I can get this right? I believe Iron Bull at that point was looking towards a friend (at least I believe him and the Inquiz where friends at that point) to help him decide on an course of action as mentioned he was always told what to do In the long run short run he knew what to do and that was to kill and protect . You have to have high friendship with The Iron Bull to start his personal quest. Hummm, did not know that thanks 
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 26, 2020 22:49:21 GMT
Starting to think people only read DAO as dark because it looks shittier tbh.
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Post by NotN7 on Aug 27, 2020 0:59:21 GMT
Starting to think people only read DAO as dark because it looks shittier tbh. Hehe  that could be true but I believe that from the get go every thing went to poop regardless of your character you selected it just took a certain while for it to go to crap. 
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Post by Kabraxal on Aug 27, 2020 7:53:06 GMT
Starting to think people only read DAO as dark because it looks shittier tbh. I find Origins and Inquisition to be equally as... dark... as each other. Only the colour pallete is truly different between the games when it comes to any darkness. Now, DA2 is objectively darker than both. No matter the player choice, things continually go to shit and you can’t stop it. And I do NOT want that again. It just barely works for DA2 and other such bleak tale of powerlessness will just come off as tryhard grimdark chasing the lowest common denominator in this era of entertainment. |
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that could be true but I believe that from the get go every thing went to poop regardless of your character you selected it just took a certain while for it to go to crap. 
