Zatche
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Post by Zatche on Oct 1, 2017 2:05:55 GMT
Seems like the criticism evolved from "DAI isn't dark enough" to "DAI's use of text codices and exposition isn't visceral enough". The latter, I can partly agree with. Many of the stories told through codices and are evocative when read on their own. But next to the game assaulting our senses by letting us blow up a foot soldier into a a giant blood puddle with power combos, they can be an after thought. So, yes, many of the companion and other side quest could have benefited from more cinematic displays of "darkness".
But I only partly agree. And I disagree with the former criticism, as we're talking about a game where Templars force their subordinates to consume Red Lyrium by the blade, turning them into gruesome abominations. And Grey Wardens sacrifice their own to use blood magic to summon demons.
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 6, 2017 22:28:06 GMT
I think this thread is relevant given thr discussion in the brothel thread.
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Post by fairdragon on Aug 12, 2020 17:44:13 GMT
I think everyone have a own interpretation of dark tone. For me DA2 was dark in story and that was bad. I want dark in choices. So you can decided to kill connor or his mother sacrificed herself or happyending. I think it isn't a question of dark tone, it is a question of choices and consequences. For DA2 it would mean you can stop anders.
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Post by fairdragon on Aug 12, 2020 17:55:59 GMT
Except GoT is the most watched show on television and the Witcher 3 is being touted as the best RPG ever made.... Clearly there is something to their success. Yes, but their respective successes may or may not to be related to their "darkness". I've never watched GoT, only like two episodes when the local national broadcaster ran it a few years back. So I can't say anything about it.
The Witcher 3 was obviously great, and if I try to be objective, I do consider it to be the best modern open-world RPG ever made. But it's not like TW3's biggest merit was the "darkness". I daresay that if DAI had had a similar storytelling structure and a combat system like TW3, it would have been very well received as well. TW3 had an epic and engrossing main plot, which was centered around an enigmatic yet well-developed character (the only good character in the whole franchise), and it was the innovativeness of the main storyline which set it apart from its competitors. Just compare the main plot of DAI and TW3... Which was better? 
Also, there is no guarantee that the transition to "darker" storytelling would be a) successful or  well-received. It's usually not a good idea to do something just to mimic the success of others  And I think BW still has some artistic self-esteem left, despite all the blows it has suffered. So I don't think that they will stoop so low as to copy CDPR.
No no no please not. TW3 is a totally different frainchise. The comat system is awful for me (i cann't play it). DA please no open world stay as you are. And DA is a dark game. Why was DAO so hyped? character creation, romance and choices. That is the frainchise, donn't mess up by trying something new what is in.
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Post by fairdragon on Aug 12, 2020 18:05:51 GMT
And did they suffer from being dark? Well I don't look at DAO as being "dark" because it's larger purpose is setting up the rules of its universe, like this is how it is. DA2 is dark game because it expands upon what was setup in DAO, they decided to go that path of being "dark". DAI is the same level of darkness that DA2 setup. The possible assassination of the Empress, Breach, Divine's death, Cory, and most importantly the setup of Solas. So, I don't see how DAI is more lighter in tone then DA2 where a lot of DAI's plot stems from DA2. It is a matter of choices. DAO have many dark choices. DAI have less. for DA2 i cann't say. It was to bad i cann't play or see it with delight to the end.
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Post by necrowaif on Aug 12, 2020 18:53:22 GMT
While I can’t condone thread necromancy, it’s kind of funny to re-examine this discussion in light of what we know in 2020. “Game of Thrones is the most-watched TV show ever! It’s always maintained the highest quality and it will never disappoint its fans!” |
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Post by colfoley on Aug 12, 2020 20:21:08 GMT
While I can’t condone thread necromancy, it’s kind of funny to re-examine this discussion in light of what we know in 2020. “Game of Thrones is the most-watched TV show ever! It’s always maintained the highest quality and it will never disappoint its fans!” by that logic DA4 will be just fine.  |
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 12, 2020 22:10:35 GMT
Jesus Christ, STOP.
I still maintain that the premise is flawed.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 12, 2020 22:41:02 GMT
I know this is from two years ago, but I think it's hilarious that MajesticJazz thinks that DA2 was lighter. I mean have you've seen DA2? It contained a woman who was kidnapped and transformed into a zombie made out of body parts and was an overall black and grey morality story.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 13, 2020 1:42:49 GMT
Not just a woman. The protagonist's mother.
Which was OK with me. But I'm kind of odd that way; QunBull was my favorite DAI romance, precisely because it goes somewhere I didn't think Bio had the guts to go anymore.
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Post by necrowaif on Aug 13, 2020 2:26:32 GMT
Not just a woman. The protagonist's mother. Which was OK with me. But I'm kind of odd that way; QunBull was my favorite DAI romance, precisely because it goes somewhere I didn't think Bio had the guts to go anymore. QunBull=Hissrad, right? |
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 13, 2020 5:54:23 GMT
It'd be pretty weird if BioWare were the only people in the world who were afraid of killing off popular characters.
I suspect it's far less an issue of "guts" and more to do with convenience. Now that they have the gimmick of choices carrying over, characters kind of need to stay, you know, alive, so BioWare can keep using them. They can't ALL be resurrected by the Maker. Allowing Iron Bull to be killed suggests to me that they have no significant future plans for him.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 13, 2020 7:20:52 GMT
I know this is from two years ago, but I think it's hilarious that MajesticJazz thinks that DA2 was lighter. I mean have you've seen DA2? It contained a woman who was kidnapped and transformed into a zombie made out of body parts and was an overall black and grey morality story. or Inquisition for that matter with the war, death, Red Lyrium body horror...etc |
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Andraste_Reborn
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Aug 13, 2020 8:00:37 GMT
Looking back on this thread nearly three years later - I feel like Tevinter Nights kind of puts paid to the idea that the setting is getting less dark any time soon.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 13, 2020 8:05:00 GMT
Looking back on this thread nearly three years later - I feel like Tevinter Nights kind of puts paid to the idea that the setting is getting less dark any time soon. thanks for the reminder.  |
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Post by ihasfingers on Aug 13, 2020 10:24:25 GMT
Which part of DAO was dark exactly? They kept calling it dark fantasy, but what was so dark about it? It had a bog standard good-guys-save-the-world story line. The main villain was an evil looking dragon for crying out loud!  |
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Post by ClarkKent on Aug 13, 2020 11:19:03 GMT
I think 'showing not telling' is something I'd like to see more of in DA4. There's no doubt there were dark underpinnings to some of DAI's stories, but they weren't conveyed in the narrative particularly well.
It didn't help that the game was essentially split into two. You have 25 hours of wandering through drab lifeless worlds, with no cut scenes, to build up power for your next narrative fix - then you have the actual game(which is about 10 hours).
Continually as I stumbled upon more and more codex I started to feel like the Inquisitor was the greatest buzzkillington in Thedas. I would read about all of this exciting and dramatic stuff happening then lo and behold, as soon as the Inquisitor goes to have a look, it's more drab and lifeless world. I felt like one of the humans in Toy Story actually.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 13, 2020 11:31:31 GMT
I think 'showing not telling' is something I'd like to see more of in DA4. There's no doubt there were dark underpinnings to some of DAI's stories, but they weren't conveyed in the narrative particularly well. It didn't help that the game was essentially split into two. You have 25 hours of wandering through drab lifeless worlds, with no cut scenes, to build up power for your next narrative fix - then you have the actual game(which is about 10 hours). Continually as I stumbled upon more and more codex I started to feel like the Inquisitor was the greatest buzzkillington in Thedas. I would read about all of this exciting and dramatic stuff happening then lo and behold, as soon as the Inquisitor goes to have a look, it's more drab and lifeless world. I felt like one of the humans in Toy Story actually. I don't really consider the Codex "telling over showing", given that it's optional content that the player has to actively search for. I would say that Dragon Age neither shows NOR tells. Lol. The real tragedy of the Dragon Age series is that the REALLY interesting plotlines are in side comics and novels. Finding gryphons (griffons?), curing Tranquility, reactivating the Eluvian network and fighting monsters from the Void are the type of thing players should be getting to do. Instead we're prying rings off corpses to return to grieving widows, and learning that the Emperess of Not-France is into bondage. |
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Post by ClarkKent on Aug 13, 2020 11:44:57 GMT
I think 'showing not telling' is something I'd like to see more of in DA4. There's no doubt there were dark underpinnings to some of DAI's stories, but they weren't conveyed in the narrative particularly well. It didn't help that the game was essentially split into two. You have 25 hours of wandering through drab lifeless worlds, with no cut scenes, to build up power for your next narrative fix - then you have the actual game(which is about 10 hours). Continually as I stumbled upon more and more codex I started to feel like the Inquisitor was the greatest buzzkillington in Thedas. I would read about all of this exciting and dramatic stuff happening then lo and behold, as soon as the Inquisitor goes to have a look, it's more drab and lifeless world. I felt like one of the humans in Toy Story actually. I don't really consider the Codex "telling over showing", given that it's optional content that the player has to actively search for. I would say that Dragon Age neither shows NOR tells. Lol. The real tragedy of the Dragon Age series is that the REALLY interesting plotlines are in side comics and novels. Finding gryphons (griffons?), curing Tranquility, reactivating the Eluvian network and fighting monsters from the Void are the type of thing players should be getting to do. Instead we're prying rings off corpses to return to grieving widows, and learning that the Emperess of Not-France is into bondage. The narrative was overly reliant on codex to enhance the story. Basically anything you do in the game you get the reward of a nice wall of text to read. The 'find the husband of the widowed wife' can be a fun side quest archetype if there's some decent presentation. The way it was in DAI I knew when I took a quest like that, that the end result would be finding a dead body with an accompanying wall of text saying something along the lines of 'I'm sorry dear Margaret I ran away with the postman then a bear got us both - we are dead as you can see, bye'. I would read the wall of texts and still be unmoved by the quests - I can't imagine what it would be like to not read the codex.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 13, 2020 11:50:28 GMT
I don't really consider the Codex "telling over showing", given that it's optional content that the player has to actively search for. I would say that Dragon Age neither shows NOR tells. Lol. The real tragedy of the Dragon Age series is that the REALLY interesting plotlines are in side comics and novels. Finding gryphons (griffons?), curing Tranquility, reactivating the Eluvian network and fighting monsters from the Void are the type of thing players should be getting to do. Instead we're prying rings off corpses to return to grieving widows, and learning that the Emperess of Not-France is into bondage. The narrative was overly reliant on codex to enhance the story. Basically anything you do in the game you get the reward of a nice wall of text to read. The 'find the husband of the widowed wife' can be a fun side quest archetype if there's some decent presentation. The way it was in DAI I knew when I took a quest like that, that the end result would be finding a dead body with an accompanying wall of text saying something along the lines of 'I'm sorry dear Margaret I ran away with the postman then a bear got us both - we are dead as you can see, bye'. I would read the wall of texts and still be unmoved by the quests - I can't imagine what it would be like to not read the codex. Oh, I can assure you it shakes out much the same. Hahaha |
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 13, 2020 20:53:35 GMT
The real tragedy of the Dragon Age series is that the REALLY interesting plotlines are in side comics and novels. Finding gryphons (griffons?), curing Tranquility, reactivating the Eluvian network and fighting monsters from the Void are the type of thing players should be getting to do. Instead we're prying rings off corpses to return to grieving widows, and learning that the Emperess of Not-France is into bondage. I absolutely agree with you on this. I frequently think whilst reading the comics and novels, wouldn't it have been fun to do this in game. |
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Post by Iakus on Aug 13, 2020 21:21:02 GMT
Old thread, but I'll comment.
No, I don' t think they should go back to the darker tone of DAO (even though it's my favorite of the DA games) because I'm not convinced Bioware can do it right anymore.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Aug 17, 2020 21:01:40 GMT
Genuinely confused how anyone would perceive DA2 and DAI as being "light".
In DA2, you start off running for your life from the blight. Your sibling gets brutally murdered in the prologue. Then you have to execute Aveline's husband before you leave. Then you have to sneak your way into a city via indentured servitude cause your uncle gambled away all your grandparents' fortunes. To do so you have to kill people then threaten or kill more people.
In DAI, an entire temple and all its attendees gets annihalated with people's corpses literally still on fire with demons everywhere. Everyone's blaming you for everything.
People need to stop letting their nostalgia of a very old game get in the way of their reasoning. DAO seemed darker because most likely you were just younger and/or were collectively less exposed to "darkness" in general when the internet was still in its infancy.
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Post by grallon on Aug 17, 2020 21:19:22 GMT
Most of this has to do with the very *brown* palette used in DAO, and the nostalgia like you mentioned.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 17, 2020 21:43:32 GMT
Genuinely confused how anyone would perceive DA2 and DAI as being "light". In DA2, you start off running for your life from the blight. Your sibling gets brutally murdered in the prologue. Then you have to execute Aveline's husband before you leave. Then you have to sneak your way into a city via indentured servitude cause your uncle gambled away all your grandparents' fortunes. To do so you have to kill people then threaten or kill more people. In DAI, an entire temple and all its attendees gets annihalated with people's corpses literally still on fire with demons everywhere. Everyone's blaming you for everything. People need to stop letting their nostalgia of a very old game get in the way of their reasoning. DAO seemed darker because most likely you were just younger and/or were collectively less exposed to "darkness" in general when the internet was still in its infancy. It's always "nostalgia" isn't it?  No, DAO wasn't "dark fantasy" but it did have dark elements, and handled them bettr then the sequels did.
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well-received. It's usually not a good idea to do something just to mimic the success of others 
And I think BW still has some artistic self-esteem left, despite all the blows it has suffered. So I don't think that they will stoop so low as to copy CDPR. 
