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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 13, 2016 0:20:31 GMT
Because children cannot become possessed. I'm sorry, what does that have to do with changing one's mind? Because children being there shouldn't be some magical revelation.
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Post by runespoor on Dec 13, 2016 0:30:25 GMT
I'm sorry, what does that have to do with changing one's mind? Because children being there shouldn't be some magical revelation. Why? It's not a given to someone who didn't grow up in Ferelden's human society, so half the origins. Cousland, Tabris, and both mages know there are children in the Circle; but Aeducan, Brosca, and Mahariel all have grounds to only realize that when they see the kids for the first time, especially if you didn't go to Redcliffe before.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 13, 2016 0:59:53 GMT
Because children being there shouldn't be some magical revelation. Why? It's not a given to someone who didn't grow up in Ferelden's human society, so half the origins. Cousland, Tabris, and both mages know there are children in the Circle; but Aeducan, Brosca, and Mahariel all have grounds to only realize that when they see the kids for the first time, especially if you didn't go to Redcliffe before. It really doesn't change the job given is what I mean.
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Post by runespoor on Dec 13, 2016 1:11:19 GMT
Why? It's not a given to someone who didn't grow up in Ferelden's human society, so half the origins. Cousland, Tabris, and both mages know there are children in the Circle; but Aeducan, Brosca, and Mahariel all have grounds to only realize that when they see the kids for the first time, especially if you didn't go to Redcliffe before. It really doesn't change the job given is what I mean. It changes the moral weight, though. Depending on the character. What you actually signed up for is very flexible, in part because Greagoir is willing to be flexible (he says he'll reconsider if you bring him Irving). I think the PC is primed to get into the situation with an adaptable outlook. And if Greagoir's willing to be flexible, well, it's not a huge reach for the Warden to decide to do the same: put off the decision until you've seen Irving. It does make you take Wynne in your party and she could be an abomination, but you might be willing to take that chance when weighted with the benefits of a skilled mage who knows demon-repelling barriers. And again: for someone who doesn't know that there are children in the Circle, yes, "kill all the mages" turns into a different beast once you realize that it may or may not also include children, and presumably, what, babies not yet dropped off to the Chantry. And that feels like Greagoir trying to get someone else to do his dirty work. It's hiding information that could make or break your decision. It's the difference between Leliana knowing Marjolaine is a bard and Leliana knowing Marjolaine is selling Orlesian secrets to foreign powers.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 13, 2016 1:37:34 GMT
Because children being there shouldn't be some magical revelation. Why? It's not a given to someone who didn't grow up in Ferelden's human society, so half the origins. Cousland, Tabris, and both mages know there are children in the Circle; but Aeducan, Brosca, and Mahariel all have grounds to only realize that when they see the kids for the first time, especially if you didn't go to Redcliffe before. Cousland also have some reasons, why s/he would save the innocent mages. And: s/he not have more reason to fear from mages, than to fear from non-mage FRIENDS. Who betrayed him/her and massacred his/her family and the whole staff of the estate was a non mage family friend. Who betrayed him/her and jeopardized the whole Ferelden with the witch hunt after the Grey Wardens, and hired an assassin to POISON the Arl of Redcliff. Yes, this assassin was a mage, who used assassin tool, not devastating fireballs and/or other magical tricks, was hero of Ferelden (Loghain – don't have magical talents) (Why Loghain hired a MAGE forit? Because, probably he knew Isolde's problem with her son... So: Loghain was the indirect cause of Connor's possession, and he probably would be able to prevention.) S/He got help from two (apostate) mages: the Witch of the Wild and her daughter. S/He saw one child who possessed by a demon, and was REALLY dangerous yes. (Because he want to save his father, who was poisoned by Loghain's assassin – Jowan). With these facts in mind s/he going into the Circle, where s/he can see, that some sober mages try to save the children and the others. The templar commander told, if s/he can save the first enchanter, he will not annul the Circle, and mages can help to save Ferelden from the Blight. If s/he was not inRedcliffe before Circle Mage quest, he don't met Connor, and dont know what have done Loghain with Eamon arl. Of course, s/he can choose the annulment, but there is reason to choose the save the mages. S/he have same number of reasons for it than the others. As I see.
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Post by mousestalker on Dec 13, 2016 2:27:01 GMT
Anders is a mage.
Anders is dead sexy.
Therefore, do not purge the Circle.
QED.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 13, 2016 2:32:27 GMT
Anders is a mage. Anders is dead sexy. Therefore, do not purge the Circle. QED. Ooh. brilliant argument! I almost forget, thank you!
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 13, 2016 2:36:08 GMT
It really doesn't change the job given is what I mean. It changes the moral weight That it does. But not the job. The job was: to kill everything hostile within the tower to make it safe again and if possible find Irving and if you cannot then the Circle is truly lost and the right required. That they'd impede your task makes their own motivation, of self survival rather questionable if you ask me. That to me is not a matter of adaption, but rather if you accept moral dictation for choice when it comes to something that may inconvenience your conscience.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 13, 2016 2:37:58 GMT
Anders is a mage. Anders is dead sexy. Therefore, do not purge the Circle. QED. He blew up a Church.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 13, 2016 2:41:29 GMT
Anders is a mage. Anders is dead sexy. Therefore, do not purge the Circle. QED. He blew up a Church. Yes, he did.
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Post by runespoor on Dec 13, 2016 12:38:47 GMT
It changes the moral weight That it does. But not the job. The job was: to kill everything hostile within the tower to make it safe again and if possible find Irving and if you cannot then the Circle is truly lost and the right required. That they'd impede your task makes their own motivation, of self survival rather questionable if you ask me.That to me is not a matter of adaption, but rather if you accept moral dictation for choice when it comes to something that may inconvenience your conscience. We’re moving the goalposts. I thought I was answering the question “why would there being children make you change your mind”; now it sounds like you want me to convince you. I can’t do that, that’s between your way of playing the game and your own choices. However I’ll point that according to your own latest post, killing Wynne’s group goes above and beyond what Greagoir asked of you, if he really put it as “killing the hostiles”. Re: self-survival. How dare these people prevent you from doing your task! Which is killing them! Truly, the gall of some of these mages. …yeah, I got nothin’. This feels like one of these “drown the witch” things. Catilina: I didn’t mean to say Cousland or Tabris had no reason to spare the mages! Even a lukewarm non-sympathizer can decide to put off their decision until they’ve found Irving, dead or otherwise: if it’s good enough for Greagoir, it can be good enough for you. I just wanted to say that Cousland and Tabris both know mage children are taken to the Circle, but Mahariel+the dwarves might not.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 13, 2016 14:49:56 GMT
That it does. But not the job. The job was: to kill everything hostile within the tower to make it safe again and if possible find Irving and if you cannot then the Circle is truly lost and the right required. That they'd impede your task makes their own motivation, of self survival rather questionable if you ask me.That to me is not a matter of adaption, but rather if you accept moral dictation for choice when it comes to something that may inconvenience your conscience. We’re moving the goalposts. Not really, you brought up that this could be construed as a sudden moral dilemma and I pointed out that it in really does not impact what you were told to do unless if that impacts your decision making. Ultimately what you were told do does not matter that child are there or aren't there, it does not change what you are there to do and that is initially to purge the tower of anything and d everything that is hostile and is potentially hostile given the state of the circle.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 13, 2016 14:53:21 GMT
We’re moving the goalposts. Not really, you brought up that this could be construed as a sudden moral dilemma and I pointed out that it in really does not impact what you were told to do unless if that impacts your decision making. Ultimately what you were told do does not matter that child are there or aren't there, it does not change what you are there to do and that is initially to purge the tower of anything and d everything that is hostile and is potentially hostile given the state of the circle. I can agree with this. If the warden wants to annul the Circle, because too fanatic, paranoid or just don't want to spent more time with this mess and risk his/her life for some unknown people, s/he don't care, what kind this people.
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Post by Aren on Dec 15, 2016 12:17:18 GMT
You can find whatever RP you want to justify anything,having said that i didn't annuled the Circle as i found mages to be better than templars into an army where i had already plenty of melee fighters,and also by saving the circle you don't force the templars to fight vs the darkspawns so indirectly you save them so that they can solve the mess at the tower and investigate better because they are not busy to help you,also there the whole benefit in the Connor questline.
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Post by deadlydwarf on Dec 15, 2016 17:36:03 GMT
For me, the sight of Wynne standing in front of the children ready to defend them against harm is enough to win over my Wardens. The thought of chasing after children to slaughter them is repugnant. I don't see how anyone other than a "bad" Warden does it. I don't think a virtuous Warden would ever follow the "kill them all and let the Maker sort them out" logic.
That said, they should've had a "quarantine" option available for the more pro-Templar Warden.
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Post by badking on Dec 18, 2016 23:03:10 GMT
There are five types of warden who I think would annul the circle:
1. A fanatic who strongly believes that the rite must be invoked due to a religious hatred of maleficarum and abominations. 2. A warden who is completely adverse to taking any sort of risk and would rather wipe the mages out than risk jeopardising the war against the darkspawn due to mages becoming unexpectedly revealing themselves to be abominations at a less-than-ideal time. 3. A mage warden who despised the tower due to bad experiences growing up there. 4. A warden who despises the mages for their perceived weakness in failing to free themselves and living like 'cattle' (like Morrigan does). 5. An utterly incompetent moron who failed to use the litany in battle against Uldred even though Wynne repeatedly bellowed at him to use it.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 18, 2016 23:07:56 GMT
There are five types of warden who I think would annul the circle: 1. A fanatic who strongly believes that the rite must be invoked due to a religious hatred of maleficarum and abominations. 2. A warden who is completely adverse to taking any sort of risk and would rather wipe the mages out than risk jeopardising the war against the darkspawn due to mages becoming unexpectedly revealing themselves to be abominations at a less-than-ideal time. 3. A mage warden who despised the tower due to bad experiences growing up there.
4. A warden who despises the mages for their perceived weakness in failing to free themselves and living like 'cattle' (like Morrigan does). 5. An utterly incompetent moron who failed to use the litany in battle against Uldred even though Wynne repeatedly bellowed at him to use it. They do not destroy the Circle(s), but the mages ... Or do you think that those who had bad experiences at school, those want to massacre the children?
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Post by badking on Dec 18, 2016 23:54:08 GMT
There are five types of warden who I think would annul the circle: 1. A fanatic who strongly believes that the rite must be invoked due to a religious hatred of maleficarum and abominations. 2. A warden who is completely adverse to taking any sort of risk and would rather wipe the mages out than risk jeopardising the war against the darkspawn due to mages becoming unexpectedly revealing themselves to be abominations at a less-than-ideal time. 3. A mage warden who despised the tower due to bad experiences growing up there.
4. A warden who despises the mages for their perceived weakness in failing to free themselves and living like 'cattle' (like Morrigan does). 5. An utterly incompetent moron who failed to use the litany in battle against Uldred even though Wynne repeatedly bellowed at him to use it. They do not destroy the Circle(s), but the mages ... Or do you think that those who had bad experiences at school, those want to massacre the children? No, but hating the other mages is a conceivable reason as to why a mage might want to kill them out of vindictiveness. If you're a mage warden there is even a conversation option that lets you discuss this with Wynne before you to attack her (so it's possible to roleplay this in-universe).
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Post by Catilina on Dec 19, 2016 0:01:19 GMT
They do not destroy the Circle(s), but the mages ... Or do you think that those who had bad experiences at school, those want to massacre the children? No, but hating the other mages is a conceivable reason as to why a mage might want to wipe them out for vindictive reasons. If you're a mage warden there is even a conversation option that lets you discuss this with Wynne before you to attack her (so it's possible to roleplay this in-universe). Yes, absolutely imaginable, but I think then poor warden probably mentally ill, and very dangerous (which is sadly very often in the Circles as I see)...
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Post by shechinah on Dec 19, 2016 0:02:50 GMT
They do not destroy the Circle(s), but the mages ... Or do you think that those who had bad experiences at school, those want to massacre the children?Some do. They sometimes use others as proxies for whatever is or did cause them their… emotional distress for the lack of a better word. Basically, their victims becomes the personification of the perpetrator's emotional distress or in other words, the perpetrator cannot target what is causing them distress so the perpetrator targets something or someone that they can act out on or against. Sometimes it is also because they blame their fellow students (and/or teachers) partially or entirely for their bad experiences. An example would be because they percieve teachers as failing to help them.
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Post by shechinah on Dec 19, 2016 0:06:03 GMT
For me, the sight of Wynne standing in front of the children ready to defend them against harm is enough to win over my Wardens. The thought of chasing after children to slaughter them is repugnant. I don't see how anyone other than a "bad" Warden does it. I don't think a virtuous Warden would ever follow the "kill them all and let the Maker sort them out" logic. That said, they should've had a "quarantine" option available for the more pro-Templar Warden.There is, at least, according to the Wikipedia. It grants the templars as the army result for the Broken Circle quest.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 19, 2016 0:06:28 GMT
They do not destroy the Circle(s), but the mages ... Or do you think that those who had bad experiences at school, those want to massacre the children?Some do. They sometimes use others as proxies for whatever is or did cause them their… emotional distress for the lack of a better word. Basically, their victims becomes the personification of the perpetrator's emotional distress or in other words, the perpetrator cannot target what is causing them distress so the perpetrator targets something or someone that they can target. Sometimes it is also because they blame their fellow students (and/or teachers) partially or entirely for their bad experiences. An example would be because they percieve teachers as failing to help them.
Yes, I thought this. So: this warden abused not only by the templars, but his/her fellow mages too. This would be very sad, but imaginable. (This is why I think, that the Circle system is very dangerous. Practically a factory, to create powerful madmen.)
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Post by deadlydwarf on Dec 19, 2016 15:21:39 GMT
For me, the sight of Wynne standing in front of the children ready to defend them against harm is enough to win over my Wardens. The thought of chasing after children to slaughter them is repugnant. I don't see how anyone other than a "bad" Warden does it. I don't think a virtuous Warden would ever follow the "kill them all and let the Maker sort them out" logic. That said, they should've had a "quarantine" option available for the more pro-Templar Warden.There is, at least, according to the Wikipedia. It grants the templars as the army result for the Broken Circle quest. Any idea how that option comes available? Is this what would occur if, after helping Wynne and rescuing Irving, you talk to Greagoire and tell him of your concerns? That you can't guarantee the Circle has been cleared?
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Post by shechinah on Dec 19, 2016 15:26:37 GMT
There is, at least, according to the Wikipedia. It grants the templars as the army result for the Broken Circle quest. Any idea how that option comes available? Is this what would occur if, after helping Wynne and rescuing Irving, you talk to Greagoire and tell him of your concerns? That you can't guarantee the Circle has been cleared? According to the Wikipedia: "If Irving survived, the Warden must mention to Greagoir that some blood mages may have survived. In that case, Irving will agree with this fact and willingly go into containment and put the mages' lives in the templars' hands. Wynne accepts this decision and stays with the party. This ending results with +12 approval from Morrigan."
Source: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Broken_Circle#Result
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Post by deadlydwarf on Dec 19, 2016 15:58:17 GMT
Any idea how that option comes available? Is this what would occur if, after helping Wynne and rescuing Irving, you talk to Greagoire and tell him of your concerns? That you can't guarantee the Circle has been cleared? According to the Wikipedia: "If Irving survived, the Warden must mention to Greagoir that some blood mages may have survived. In that case, Irving will agree with this fact and willingly go into containment and put the mages' lives in the templars' hands. Wynne accepts this decision and stays with the party. This ending results with +12 approval from Morrigan."
Source: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Broken_Circle#Result
Cool. One can be pro-Templar without being a sadistic butcher! And it makes the "kill Wynne and the children" solution even more of a "bad Warden" option.
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