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Post by boxofscreaming on Aug 30, 2017 20:15:30 GMT
Mage freedom is certainly right and there shouldn't be circles at all, but the trouble with Anders is that he doesn't care what other mages want and elects himself to make decisions on their behalf.
That and the murdering.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 30, 2017 20:55:04 GMT
Mage freedom is certainly right and there shouldn't be circles at all, but the trouble with Anders is that he doesn't care what other mages want and elects himself to make decisions on their behalf. That and the murdering. He knew many mages' opinion because he worked together with the Mage Underground, and he hardly could ask the Mages inside the Circle. It's a bit difficult to hold a referendum on the issue, sadly. But his decision was confirmed: the College of Magi voted for the war. And ofc, to execute him, still a possibility, and he will not deny the justness of the execution. True, this will not bring back anyone. (Orana didn't want to be free, even Fenris didn't desire for freedom before the accident, just think about it.)
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Post by Sah291 on Aug 30, 2017 20:56:07 GMT
Mage freedom is certainly right and there shouldn't be circles at all, but the trouble with Anders is that he doesn't care what other mages want and elects himself to make decisions on their behalf. That and the murdering. Did the circle loyal mages care what other mages wanted, though? That's the whole problem, it wasn't really a choice for anyone, whether they wanted it or not. You can actually make this argument when Hawke is judging Anders, and ask why it's up to him to decide how things should be. He only responds that it is clear how things shouldn't be.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 30, 2017 21:15:24 GMT
He knew many mages' opinion because he worked together with the Mage Underground, and he hardly could ask the Mages inside the Circle. It's a bit difficult to hold a referendum on the issue, sadly. But his decision was confirmed: the College of Magi voted for the war. Not really. Sure they voted for war but that was only at the end of Asunder when due to extremists on both sides any other option was eliminated. Before that they were deadlocked between staying in the Circles or breaking away peacefully and wrote Anders off as a madman. And even after war started many mages didn't side with those fighting and even the ones fighting jumped at the opportunity to end the war when the Divine offered the Conclave.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 30, 2017 21:19:24 GMT
He knew many mages' opinion because he worked together with the Mage Underground, and he hardly could ask the Mages inside the Circle. It's a bit difficult to hold a referendum on the issue, sadly. But his decision was confirmed: the College of Magi voted for the war. Not really. Sure they voted for war but that was only at the end of Asunder when due to extremists any other option was eliminated. Before that they were deadlocked between staying in the Circles or breaking away peacefully and wrote Anders off as a madman. And even after war started many mages didn't side with those fighting and even the ones fighting jumped at the opportunity to end the war when the Divine offered the Conclave. Extremist? You mean the ones who have only moderate Stockholm Syndrome?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 30, 2017 21:22:38 GMT
Not really. Sure they voted for war but that was only at the end of Asunder when due to extremists any other option was eliminated. Before that they were deadlocked between staying in the Circles or breaking away peacefully and wrote Anders off as a madman. And even after war started many mages didn't side with those fighting and even the ones fighting jumped at the opportunity to end the war when the Divine offered the Conclave. Extremist? You mean the ones who have only moderate Stockholm Syndrome? No, I'm referring to the people who wanted war like Adrian and Lambert and went to extreme measures to make it happen.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 30, 2017 21:24:05 GMT
Extremist? You mean the ones who have only moderate Stockholm Syndrome? No, I'm referring to the people who wanted war like Adrian and Lambert and went to extreme measures to make it happen. Would the Divine declare the freedom of the Mages without war? Why didn't do then?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 30, 2017 21:26:14 GMT
No, I'm referring to the people who wanted war like Adrian and Lambert and went to extreme measures to make it happen. Would the Divine declare the freedom of the Mages without war? She was certainly leaning that way, to the point Lambert defies her and has the Templars leave the Chantry so he can fight the mages.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 30, 2017 21:30:17 GMT
What's wrong with the word treated? What synonym of that would you prefer? I can't explain, my English is weak. Perhaps, I'm wrong. But I don't like "treated as people" "treated fairly"... so, I said, maybe i'm wrong. Ah, okay. It's definitely a different language issue then since there is noting bad about using the term treated. It's a neutral to positive word.
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Post by Sah291 on Aug 30, 2017 21:35:57 GMT
My impression from DAA was that the fraternities that favored peacefully breaking away were gaining popularity, but Wynne feared a vote in their favor would mean war (presumably because the Chantry would never allow it and would likely threaten exalted march). Which is what they did do in Kirkwall. It might have been only a bluff...but still...threatening war to force a vote to go your way...that's not leaving people much freedom to choose.
Even so, if the fraternities wanting independence wanted to go peacefully start their own Circles, or Colleges, or whatever, there's no reason they shouldn't have, even if they were a small minority.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 30, 2017 21:53:25 GMT
Would the Divine declare the freedom of the Mages without war? Why didn't do then? She was certainly leaning that way, to the point Lambert defies her and has the Templars leave the Chantry so he can fight the mages. According to Leliana, she would not go so far than she [Leliana]. (I didn't read Asunder) And: Anders could not know what she was secretly planning. This is the point. I suppose, without the rebellion still only little changes would happen. The events have accelerated a bit with Anders' act.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 31, 2017 5:25:55 GMT
I am not understanding what incentive the Divine would have to free the mages from the circles. They talk about it, the mages voted for it. But would they have given full freedom to the mages,to give up that power and in return what does the Divine, Chantry or Templars get from that? Well, other than the fact people don't need a motivation to do something other than thinking it is the right thing to do, the Chantry could benefit from such an arrangement. For example let's say the Circles are turned into a Hogwarts king of thing where mages go there when they develop their powers and leave after they have learned to use them responsibly. With that, the Chantry will actually make more money since less will have to go to the adult mages for housing, feeding, clothing, etc since the adult mages will be taking care of that themselves. That extra money can go to earning more goodwill by helping more poor and oppressed and the Templars have more money for defense. Plus the Chantry controls all of the surface Lyrium trade so they still have pretty much complete control over mages, just in a business sense where the mages need the Lyrium and the Chantry needs what the mages produce.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 31, 2017 5:31:09 GMT
She was certainly leaning that way, to the point Lambert defies her and has the Templars leave the Chantry so he can fight the mages. According to Leliana, she would not go so far than she [Leliana]. (I didn't read Asunder) And: Anders could not know what she was secretly planning. This is the point. I suppose, without the rebellion still only little changes would happen. The events have accelerated a bit with Anders' act. I think what Leliana means by that is Justinia would prefer gradual change over radical change like Leliana does if she becomes Divine Victoria. There is sense there, since gradual change gets less push back than radical change so could have a higher chance of success. The only reason Leliana's radical changes work other than how she handles the push back is because the Breach upset the balance of everything thus leaving an opening.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 31, 2017 9:53:47 GMT
According to Leliana, she would not go so far than she [Leliana]. (I didn't read Asunder) And: Anders could not know what she was secretly planning. This is the point. I suppose, without the rebellion still only little changes would happen. The events have accelerated a bit with Anders' act. I think what Leliana means by that is Justinia would prefer gradual change over radical change like Leliana does if she becomes Divine Victoria. There is sense there, since gradual change gets less push back than radical change so could have a higher chance of success. The only reason Leliana's radical changes work other than how she handles the push back is because the Breach upset the balance of everything thus leaving an opening. It sounds wise, the problem is: the gradual change also can be pushed, and the invisible, tiny results can disappear imperceptibly before they would have made any real changes. The radical changes can be pushed, but –just as the revolution– can bring hope – and can bring a new revolution. If once people see the possibility of the change, the change will be implemented sooner or later. It can happen forcefully or not, only depends on the situation, but after a revolution or/and a radical change, nothing will be as it was before. Another problem: Divine Justinia may be worked on her secret plan, but nothing seemed from it in the Circles: Starkhaven and Kirkwall were crueler than ever. Leliana failed with her investigation in Kirkwall because she only focused on the rebellious activities, not the whole situation. Justinia was benevolent, this is clear, but sadly, she belated. She just did not have enough time in this situation, because the problems in the Circles were bigger, that she expected. The circumstances were against her. You can call Lambert extremist, but not Adrian. Lambert was one of the oppressors, Adrian was one of the oppressed. You shouldn't count them in the same category, not even similar. Their situation is totally different. I know, people just love Wynne and Rhys kind judicious (obedient) Mages, because they see the Templars viewpoint – but this is the Stockholm Syndrome, when the oppressed able to accept the oppressors' viewpoints, over of their own and their fellows' feelings. But this is not wisdom, but rather illness (again: Orana).
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Post by tacsear on Aug 31, 2017 12:31:19 GMT
When you start killing innocents for your cause, you crossbow the line between a freedom fighter and a terrorist
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Post by Catilina on Aug 31, 2017 13:05:03 GMT
When you start killing innocents for your cause, you crossbow the line between a freedom fighter and a terrorist This is why his tool's morally questionable. It's always hard to draw the border between the murderer and the hero, just as in case of the justice and vengeance.
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Post by Sah291 on Aug 31, 2017 13:33:32 GMT
Well, other than the fact people don't need a motivation to do something other than thinking it is the right thing to do, the Chantry could benefit from such an arrangement. For example let's say the Circles are turned into a Hogwarts king of thing where mages go there when they develop their powers and leave after they have learned to use them responsibly. With that, the Chantry will actually make more money since less will have to go to the adult mages for housing, feeding, clothing, etc since the adult mages will be taking care of that themselves. That extra money can go to earning more goodwill by helping more poor and oppressed and the Templars have more money for defense. Plus the Chantry controls all of the surface Lyrium trade so they still have pretty much complete control over mages, just in a business sense where the mages need the Lyrium and the Chantry needs what the mages produce. That would be great if the Chantry could do that. Those that can pay do those that can't can get scholarships, those that don't want to go shouldn't have to. Change the Circle to colleges and then the mages free. I am thinking that the reason there are circle is because the Inquisition and the Chantry created the circles in the first place to have control over those with magic and in their eyes to safeguard the public from potential danger from mages. They have built this large system with immense power over the entire population, it is hard to understand them willing to give that up. Just because they went to the enclave doesn't mean the outcome would be to give up that power. Kind of like Celine in The Masked Empire telling Briala she will work on helping the elves, which she didn't it was all talk. Yes if I recall the codex correctly, the mages favored creating the Circles. They wanted protection, not so much from demons, but because mages were hated and hunted after the fall of the Imperium by former slaves and peasants (a lot of mages were former nobility). So the Chantry supported them, and the Templars gave them protection. Wynne still remembers Templars this way, since she was saved by one as a child from an angry mob. So there's no surprise why she understands their side and supports the Circle. The original job of the Templar order, according to Cassandra, was to combat demons and dark magic during the original Inquisition. But, over the years, the Chantry got more powerful, their original purpose was forgotten. The Circles became quasi prisons, and Templars became a military arm and quasi police force for the Chantry....this is where things went wrong, I think. Like that Templar who was trying to track down the blood mage serial killer who murdered Hawke's mother. That is the sort of thing that was supposed to be their job, not rounding up innocent mages like Bethany and forcing them to live in a tower, because "Chantry law" says so. But the job was more to enforce Chantry law, and less about combating dark magic. Maybe the Templar order didn't need to be so big. Maybe they could just work in small groups, specialising in magical crime, or something like that. But the Chantry created them as a military force because they wanted an Empire to counter Tevinter. They force them to become addicted to lyrium and kill mages who fail their harrowing. It was a really abusive system to both sides.
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Post by tacsear on Aug 31, 2017 13:53:17 GMT
When you start killing innocents for your cause, you crossbow the line between a freedom fighter and a terrorist This is why his tool's morally questionable. It's always hard to draw the border between the murderer and the hero, just as in case of the justice and vengeance. It is easy for me. If you got to do something bad to achieve something good, then it is not good anymore. That's my personal point of view though.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 31, 2017 14:15:08 GMT
This is why his tool's morally questionable. It's always hard to draw the border between the murderer and the hero, just as in case of the justice and vengeance. It is easy for me. If you got to do something bad to achieve something good, then it is not good anymore. That's my personal point of view though. The goal still good. I can be bad.
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 31, 2017 14:20:53 GMT
It is easy for me. If you got to do something bad to achieve something good, then it is not good anymore. That's my personal point of view though. The goal still good. I can be bad. "If the cause of the fighting is a good one, the issue of the fight will not be evil." - St. Bernard of Clairvaux, One of the co-founders of the Knights Templar An interesting quote, but one that is kind of tricky in terms of morality, as what defines a good cause?
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Post by Sah291 on Aug 31, 2017 14:23:43 GMT
Yes if I recall the codex correctly, the mages favored creating the Circles. They wanted protection, not so much from demons, but because mages were hated and hunted after the fall of the Imperium by former slaves and peasants (a lot of mages were former nobility). So the Chantry supported them, and the Templars gave them protection. Wynne still remembers Templars this way, since she was saved by one as a child from an angry mob. So there's no surprise why she understands their side and supports the Circle. The original job of the Templar order, according to Cassandra, was to combat demons and dark magic during the original Inquisition. But, over the years, the Chantry got more powerful, their original purpose was forgotten. The Circles became quasi prisons, and Templars became a military arm and quasi police force for the Chantry....this is where things went wrong, I think. Like that Templar who was trying to track down the blood mage serial killer who murdered Hawke's mother. That is the sort of thing that was supposed to be their job, not rounding up innocent mages like Bethany and forcing them to live in a tower, because "Chantry law" says so. But the job was more to enforce Chantry law, and less about combating dark magic. Maybe the Templar order didn't need to be so big. Maybe they could just work in small groups, specialising in magical crime, or something like that. But the Chantry created them as a military force because they wanted an Empire to counter Tevinter. They force them to become addicted to lyrium and kill mages who fail their harrowing. It was a really abusive system to both sides. Yes that is my understanding as well. Though am surprised no one saw how that set up would get more restrictive as time past. If the Chantry instead had worked toward teaching to the populace that mages were not to be feared it might have turned out better. I don't see how locking people up for life who have not committed any crimes can be considered good for society. To be fair, it happened over the course of hundreds of years, so I can understand them not seeing it coming, few people probably could have at the time. I fault the mages though, for thinking segregating themselves off from the rest of society out of fear was a good solution....a thousand years later, non mages still fear them, and the system they created for protection turned on them. Fenris sort of points this out, when he comments how he didn't see slavery in the Kirkwall circle, but fear (Anders flips out, but Fenris was partly right, they were afraid to change anything). Originally the Templar order was part of the Seekers, and they worked together with mages for a common goal, I don't see why they couldn't do so again. I don't like how Inquisition makes the choice mutually exclusive, if you choose to ally with mages, then you can't also help the Templars reform. But I kind of imagine Cullen or somebody would do that anyway. The mages seemed like they were in a more desperate situation, so I chose to help them first.
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Post by tacsear on Aug 31, 2017 14:39:48 GMT
It is easy for me. If you got to do something bad to achieve something good, then it is not good anymore. That's my personal point of view though. The goal still good. I can be bad. Yes the goal stays good but the person who commits the bad act is a guilty
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Post by Catilina on Aug 31, 2017 14:54:39 GMT
The goal still good. I can be bad. Yes the goal stays good but the person who commits the bad act is a guilty Still can be hero – with bloody hand. Anders assumed the responsibility.
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Post by tacsear on Aug 31, 2017 14:58:37 GMT
Yes the goal stays good but the person who commits the bad act is a guilty Still can be hero – with bloody hand. Anders assumed the responsibility. No. Based on the action he is a murderer or terrorist. A hero doesn't kill innocents or possibly children.
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Post by Sah291 on Aug 31, 2017 15:56:49 GMT
To be fair, it happened over the course of hundreds of years, so I can understand them not seeing it coming, few people probably could have at the time. I fault the mages though, for thinking segregating themselves off from the rest of society out of fear was a good solution....a thousand years later, non mages still fear them, and the system they created for protection turned on them. Fenris sort of points this out, when he comments how he didn't see slavery in the Kirkwall circle, but fear (Anders flips out, but Fenris was partly right, they were afraid to change anything). Originally the Templar order was part of the Seekers, and they worked together with mages for a common goal, I don't see why they couldn't do so again. I don't like how Inquisition makes the choice mutually exclusive, if you choose to ally with mages, then you can't also help the Templars reform. But I kind of imagine Cullen or somebody would do that anyway. The mages seemed like they were in a more desperate situation, so I chose to help them first. Yeah I didn't like that the inquisition had to choose sides. They were suppose to bring order back. At no time did my inquisitor send runners to either side to try to bring them together. Or have a scene where he tried to talk to each side or their leaders. I don't know though maybe I missed that ina codex or war table mission, that's possible. Choosing a side can only put one side in power over the other and the circle can repeat instead of getting better. I feel for the Templars jjust as much as they were trapped in their roles as well but the wrongness of the imprisonment of mages outweighs that. I agree. I don't know what would be next for the Templars once the Circle system ends. Cullen is helping out with their addiction, so maybe some new group forms. Cass is reforming the Seekers in my canon world state. If the Inquisition was a just organization and the new Divine isn't bloodthirsty (hardened Leliana?), maybe the cycle doesn't repeat this time. But it's Dragon Age, so I'm sure peace won't last long until the next world ending crisis... The real Knights Templar had it pretty rough when they lost power, they were arrested, accused of demon worship, burned at the stake, etc.
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