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Post by Cyonan on Sept 6, 2017 22:47:46 GMT
That's incorrect. Counter-Strike is a series, not one game. Much like Call of Duty, Battlefield, or Halo, Counter-Strike has had multiple games over the course of its existence. Counter-Strike: Global Offensive, the most recent main series game, released five years ago. That's fine, but most MMORPGs are built with the intent of never shutting down. I'm merely pointing out that using WoW as the sole example is disingenuous, considering it wasn't the first and there were many before it. Every developer is different and how they design and cater their games depends on their market and their strategy. But that's just it, even when SWTOR tanked after its first three months of existence, EA didn't pull the plug on the game. They forced BioWare to overhaul it and it's still here. EA made a commitment for SWTOR to exist for 10 years, and they seem to be following through on that strategy. EA, ironically enough, is one of the few publishers that doesn't just shut down their MMOs. Ultima Online is still running, and it released 20 years ago. I have no doubt that Anthem is going to be a game EA supports for at least 10 years. I just hope that BioWare creates a structure that is fun and worth playing for that long, rather than trying to drain the player base of money via cheap tactics, such as loot crates. Actually it's not incorrect because Counter-Strike 1.6 is still played today. Arguably it's more popular today than Ultima Online is. No game is seriously built with the intent of never shutting down servers because they cost money to run and maintain. It would be better to say "built with the intent to run as long as it's profitable to do so". Though my issue with the 10 years statement is that you can't really specifically design for it(you can code for future proofing on a technical aspect, but actual design you can't do). Counter-Strike, World of Warcraft, Ultima Online. None of them have any design elements specifically designed to ensure it still has a decent playerbase 10+ years after the fact. They did it by simply being well designed games that weren't concerned with trying to last for decades. So when a developer says something like that what I hear is that they're potentially just doing design by checklist. The fact that SWtoR is still around doesn't reassure me because it's a game that attempted design by checklist, was turning out to be one of the biggest failures in MMOs(at a time when MMOs were flopping left and right because they were all trying to be World of Warcraft 2.0), and ultimately was salvaged by turning the game into something very different from what it was marketed as at launch. As I said I would love to be wrong but I need to see some reassurance on that.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Pax_Augusta
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Post by Revan Reborn on Sept 6, 2017 23:09:30 GMT
Actually it's not incorrect because Counter-Strike 1.6 is still played today. Arguably it's more popular today than Ultima Online is. No game is seriously built with the intent of never shutting down servers because they cost money to run and maintain. It would be better to say "built with the intent to run as long as it's profitable to do so". Though my issue with the 10 years statement is that you can't really specifically design for it(you can code for future proofing on a technical aspect, but actual design you can't do). Counter-Strike, World of Warcraft, Ultima Online. None of them have any design elements specifically designed to ensure it still has a decent playerbase 10+ years after the fact. They did it by simply being well designed games that weren't concerned with trying to last for decades. So when a developer says something like that what I hear is that they're potentially just doing design by checklist. The fact that SWtoR is still around doesn't reassure me because it's a game that attempted design by checklist, was turning out to be one of the biggest failures in MMOs(at a time when MMOs were flopping left and right because they were all trying to be World of Warcraft 2.0), and ultimately was salvaged by turning the game into something very different from what it was marketed as at launch. As I said I would love to be wrong but I need to see some reassurance on that. So is original DOOM, QUAKE, Unreal Tournament, Halo: Combat Evolved, Battlefield: 1942, etc. The question you should be asking yourself is are more players actively playing Counter-Strike 1.6 than they are Counter-Strike: Global Offensive? The answer to that question should be self-evident. A few thousand players, versus hundreds of thousands of players (or millions) is a very different kind of beast. I have no idea how popular Ultima Online is today. My only point was to acknowledge it was an MMO that was built to never shut down. That is merely semantics. MMOs are the only genre that was built to, in theory, never end. That's not to say every MMO is a success and can go on forever. However, that was the intent for many in their initial design schemes. On average, it is true that MMOs outlast every other genre in terms of longevity. Calling SWTOR "one of the biggest failures in MMOs" is a bit dramatic. The game never operated at a loss. EA was always making a profit off its existence. In fact, even to this day, SWTOR had the fastest growing launch of any MMO in history. The problem was the game eventually would start costing EA money, so they revamped the MMO model in order to make sure it would continue to operate with gains, rather than a loss. EA isn't the only publisher to make claims of wanting to "support something for 10 years." Activision has done the same thing with Destiny, which they made similar remarks back in 2013. Those words, in particular, don't bother me. I expect all of these games will exist as long as these publishers intend. It just depends on the execution and what BioWare conceives as the core experience that will keep players involved for 10 years. I don't mind sticking with a game for years. I played SWG for five years until it was shut down. I've played SWTOR, on and off, for six years. As long as BioWare makes an experience worth playing that I won't get bored of quickly, I'm not too worried about the initial marketing of the game.
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 7, 2017 0:16:19 GMT
So is original DOOM, QUAKE, Unreal Tournament, Halo: Combat Evolved, Battlefield: 1942, etc. The question you should be asking yourself is are more players actively playing Counter-Strike 1.6 than they are Counter-Strike: Global Offensive? The answer to that question should be self-evident. A few thousand players, versus hundreds of thousands of players (or millions) is a very different kind of beast. I have no idea how popular Ultima Online is today. My only point was to acknowledge it was an MMO that was built to never shut down. That is merely semantics. MMOs are the only genre that was built to, in theory, never end. That's not to say every MMO is a success and can go on forever. However, that was the intent for many in their initial design schemes. On average, it is true that MMOs outlast every other genre in terms of longevity. Calling SWTOR "one of the biggest failures in MMOs" is a bit dramatic. The game never operated at a loss. EA was always making a profit off its existence. In fact, even to this day, SWTOR had the fastest growing launch of any MMO in history. The problem was the game eventually would start costing EA money, so they revamped the MMO model in order to make sure it would continue to operate with gains, rather than a loss. EA isn't the only publisher to make claims of wanting to "support something for 10 years." Activision has done the same thing with Destiny, which they made similar remarks back in 2013. Those words, in particular, don't bother me. I expect all of these games will exist as long as these publishers intend. It just depends on the execution and what BioWare conceives as the core experience that will keep players involved for 10 years. I don't mind sticking with a game for years. I played SWG for five years until it was shut down. I've played SWTOR, on and off, for six years. As long as BioWare makes an experience worth playing that I won't get bored of quickly, I'm not too worried about the initial marketing of the game. If 1.6 not having enough players discredits it, then most MMOs of that age should also be discredited. On the other hand if it's support for the game being dropped then neither is discredited because Valve still runs patches on all their games. My point is that it's not actually possible to have a design intent for a game to never shut down any more than it's possible to design for selling 10 million copies. You can certainly hope for it and even create technical systems to support it, but the actual design of the game can't design for that. Having a post-launch support cycle of "We'll see how long this thing goes on for" isn't specific to MMOs. While SWtoR had one of the fastest launches they also dropped those subscribers almost equally as quickly. I don't think EA did a bad thing in revamping the game so it would survive rather than riding it to the bottom of the ocean, but it does make statements about decade long support cheap when the game could just turn into something I don't like with any given major content patch. I played SWtoR at launch and it's gone from a game with lack of content to a game that I have absolutely no interest in anymore. I don't mind sticking with a game for years. I mean I still play Counter-Strike which while technically yes Global Offensive is a sequel all it really changed was a visual update and those stupid skin loot crates in terms of the core gameplay. I still play WoW on and off even though I prefer the Burning Crusade/WotLK era. Though the statement of designing for 10+ years of support still doesn't fill me with confidence, and the fact that Activision does it doesn't change anything.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 4:04:44 GMT
SWTOR being my first MMO (and I only played one more afterwards), I actually really enjoyed its MMO content, and considered it far superior to what I saw in Blade and Soul. I thought Flashpoints, warzones, GSF and Operations were great fun. I was never attracted to WoW (terrible, terrible, terrible graphics), and Guild Wars offerend next to nothing in comparison in terms of character races (plus it had that Guilds emphasis that scared the hells out of me), so honestly, I played SWTOR for class stories for the first 6 months, then played it for 2 more years because you could blend the MMO content so well with those class stories. So, nope, I did not enjoy SWTOR for what most people enjoy SWTOR for. I don' mean to debate this, I just don't like it when someone describes my opinions inaccurately And, yes, I know, it's easy to do, because I am a weird, weird person. As for your tireless assertion that Anthem is going to be something different, I simply think you will be proved wrong.... Destiny 2 seems luckier than Andromeda so far in its fans. My apologies then. Considering you always seem to praise the class stories in SWTOR and nothing else, you'll have to forgive me for believing that was the only aspect of SWTOR you cared about. I'm fairly certain I've heard you make critical remarks of Operations before, but I could be mistaken. Regardless, from someone who has played many MMORPGs before SWTOR even existed (Guild Wars 1, Star Wars Galaxies, Darkfall Online, etc.), all I will say is that SWTOR does not offer very much compared to what the genre has been offering for decades. By comparison, if you experienced these other games, you would understand why so many are critical and negative toward how SWTOR turned out. For a newcomer to the genre, I'm not surprised you think it's great. Anyone would think something they hadn't seen before is great. Well, I am a noob player, so I am too shy to talk about story mode ops, because most people are like you and played a lot of other games and are commonly very disparaging on public forums whenever anyone admits doing SM or having difficulty with it. I have a hard time defining what how I feel about MP content. From the MP content, I liked unrated PvP the moment I got desperate enough to try it, and played it pretty much till I was done with SWTOR. The dungeons and operations, well, I always saw strong negatives in how hard they are for pugs (vs pvp) and how much memorization and prep they take, not to mention finding a guild you like and then maintaining relationships in the guild. I did have fun doing it when I found folks that were easy going, but it was huge drain on time and energy to gear, prep and run a few times a week on schedule. It was even worse in Blade and Sould where I did get to see the actual daily farming of the dungeons, which is what put me off MMOs for good. I do not know how the other MMO do it and make it appealing, but doing a daily load of 4 tasks (at least 2 hrs) in addition to the OW PvP (at least 1 hr) to keep gearing in BnS was the worst gaming I have had and it was the hardest to get out well after it stopped being fun because it created the strong need for acquisition. Overall, I think, I simply am not a good enough player for complex levels of PvE or competitive PvP, and will never be. Unrated PvP was almost always fun for me, because it was always rewarded, each match was short, and I liked playing both support roles there. Also, well, a good thing about SWTOR was that you were displayed by character name, not account, so if someone lost it on you, all you had to do was to play another alt. I guess, overall, I liked the content and the idea of PvE but it was also way to dependent on way too many things and, most importantly, maintaining relationships with other players, so over time became onerous. And, well, as a pug, it was always just too difficult for me to really be fun. When I think back, I remember more bad things about dungeons than the good times, even though I did see really good times too. So, when I imagine a game with dungeons, I kindda perk up, but then really get spooked by all the work associated with it. For me to play anything with the daily dungeons, things like a guaranteed anonymity of the experience, convenient mechanism to pug, bolsters and an expectation of no more than 1 hour to do the Dailies to keep up minimal gearing would be something appealing. A promise of hard battles with 8-10 hrs of content to consume per day in a premade group is an authomatic "they will have to pay me a decent salary to play it". I will never again play a game that considers 3-5 hrs a day casual tier gaming.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Pax_Augusta
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Post by Revan Reborn on Sept 7, 2017 5:01:21 GMT
If 1.6 not having enough players discredits it, then most MMOs of that age should also be discredited. On the other hand if it's support for the game being dropped then neither is discredited because Valve still runs patches on all their games. My point is that it's not actually possible to have a design intent for a game to never shut down any more than it's possible to design for selling 10 million copies. You can certainly hope for it and even create technical systems to support it, but the actual design of the game can't design for that. Having a post-launch support cycle of "We'll see how long this thing goes on for" isn't specific to MMOs. While SWtoR had one of the fastest launches they also dropped those subscribers almost equally as quickly. I don't think EA did a bad thing in revamping the game so it would survive rather than riding it to the bottom of the ocean, but it does make statements about decade long support cheap when the game could just turn into something I don't like with any given major content patch. I played SWtoR at launch and it's gone from a game with lack of content to a game that I have absolutely no interest in anymore. I don't mind sticking with a game for years. I mean I still play Counter-Strike which while technically yes Global Offensive is a sequel all it really changed was a visual update and those stupid skin loot crates in terms of the core gameplay. I still play WoW on and off even though I prefer the Burning Crusade/WotLK era. Though the statement of designing for 10+ years of support still doesn't fill me with confidence, and the fact that Activision does it doesn't change anything. One thing I will say regarding MMO development is the games are never done. Well, they aren't done until the lights go out. Unlike most games, which developers stop supporting after a certain amount of time, that's not the case for most MMOs. I understand your point, and I believe you are looking at it from a very rational perspective, but the reality still stands that the MMO genre is unique in its intent for long-term support. My point was this corporate lingo isn't new and isn't specific to EA. I'd take it with a grain of salt until we actually know more about what kind of experience Anthem will be. Then, based on the feature set the game provides, we can conclude whether or not this is an experience that could conceivably last for 10 years. Truth be told, I don't believe a time period needs to be set on the experience. If anything, EA should just express they are looking to support and evolve this game over time and see where it goes. Truth be told, there are only a handful of games that I have come back to and played for years. Outside of a few MMOs, that's either really great franchises (Mass Effect, Dragon Age), or games with thriving and amazing modding communities (The Elder Scrolls, Fallout). I'd love it if BioWare could create an experience that I could get invested in for years to come that didn't have the typical trappings of an MMO. One of the strengths that I felt the Mass Effect trilogy had was retaining the same protagonist and growing over the course of three games. I'd like to see that same level of evolution and growth in Anthem, and I'm really hopeful it's going to be something that blows many of us away. Well, I am a noob player, so I am too shy to talk about story mode ops, because most people are like you and played a lot of other games and are commonly very disparaging on public forums whenever anyone admits doing SM or having difficulty with it. I have a hard time defining what how I feel about MP content. From the MP content, I liked unrated PvP the moment I got desperate enough to try it, and played it pretty much till I was done with SWTOR. The dungeons and operations, well, I always saw strong negatives in how hard they are for pugs (vs pvp) and how much memorization and prep they take, not to mention finding a guild you like and then maintaining relationships in the guild. I did have fun doing it when I found folks that were easy going, but it was huge drain on time and energy to gear, prep and run a few times a week on schedule. It was even worse in Blade and Sould where I did get to see the actual daily farming of the dungeons, which is what put me off MMOs for good. I do not know how the other MMO do it and make it appealing, but doing a daily load of 4 tasks (at least 2 hrs) in addition to the OW PvP (at least 1 hr) to keep gearing in BnS was the worst gaming I have had and it was the hardest to get out well after it stopped being fun because it created the strong need for acquisition. Overall, I think, I simply am not a good enough player for complex levels of PvE or competitive PvP, and will never be. Unrated PvP was almost always fun for me, because it was always rewarded, each match was short, and I liked playing both support roles there. Also, well, a good thing about SWTOR was that you were displayed by character name, not account, so if someone lost it on you, all you had to do was to play another alt. I guess, overall, I liked the content and the idea of PvE but it was also way to dependent on way too many things and, most importantly, maintaining relationships with other players, so over time became onerous. And, well, as a pug, it was always just too difficult for me to really be fun. When I think back, I remember more bad things about dungeons than the good times, even though I did see really good times too. So, when I imagine a game with dungeons, I kindda perk up, but then really get spooked by all the work associated with it. For me to play anything with the daily dungeons, things like a guaranteed anonymity of the experience, convenient mechanism to pug, bolsters and an expectation of no more than 1 hour to do the Dailies to keep up minimal gearing would be something appealing. A promise of hard battles with 8-10 hrs of content to consume per day in a premade group is an authomatic "they will have to pay me a decent salary to play it". I will never again play a game that considers 3-5 hrs a day casual tier gaming. I hope you don't believe I am belittling you. I'm merely pointing out that for a lot of veteran MMO players, SWTOR did not accomplish anything special or new in terms of MMO features. I'm happy that you enjoyed it. Unfortunately, for many of us, it fell short in many regards. Outside of the class stories, there was a lot to be desired that just wasn't there. The game had potential, but it unfortunately was never truly realized. I think unranked wzs are probably the best content SWTOR has in terms of replay value. Operations, flashpoints, and now uprisings get stale and become repetitive. Warzones, however, have always been relatively fun (disregarding terrible players that don't play objectives). I never really liked raids in SWTOR. I did progression raiding on the first four that were released, but quickly got burned out on the content. The only MMO I truly enjoyed raiding in was SWG, because every raid was unique, had interesting mechanics, and they were just a joy to run. Most of the SWTOR raids are just basic tank and spanks with additional mechanics layered on top. The best raid I ever had the privilege of playing was probably The Battle of Echo Base in SWG, and there were no traditional raid bosses in that raid. I was part of the Rebel faction, so our goal was to evacuate Echo Base and make sure everybody got out safely before the Empire overran the facility. No other raid in any MMO I've played has ever come close to matching the level of satisfaction, depth, scale, and fun that Echo Base provided. Raiding in that game was also a lot more laid back, largely because the best base gear was made by crafters. Raids were only necessary in order to get some of the best weapons, jewelry sets, or specific crucial gear largely for Jedi. I think you are being rather hard on yourself. Anybody can be good at an MMO, especially SWTOR, if you learn the fundamentals and understand what matters and what to prioritize. It doesn't matter what MMO it is. PvP is all about situational awareness and knowing the strengths and weaknesses of each class. Raiding is all about memorizing mechanics and maintaining organization throughout the encounter. None of it is hard. It just takes practice and some good common sense. I'm not interested in doing progression raiding, or having to invest many hours into an encounter just to complete a mission in Anthem. I hope BioWare is not considering that route for this game. That's more appropriate for traditional MMOs with an emphasis on hardcore raiding. I don't believe it would be appropriate or attractive for many if that's the path BioWare pursues. The priority of the game should be fun with a sense of achievement. The moment it starts to feel like a job is the moment BioWare has crossed the line. There should be something that is accessible for all, but can provide a high ceiling for those of us that want to compete at a higher level.
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 7, 2017 10:50:05 GMT
Big Snip For me to play anything with the daily dungeons, things like a guaranteed anonymity of the experience, convenient mechanism to pug, bolsters and an expectation of no more than 1 hour to do the Dailies to keep up minimal gearing would be something appealing. A promise of hard battles with 8-10 hrs of content to consume per day in a premade group is an authomatic "they will have to pay me a decent salary to play it". I will never again play a game that considers 3-5 hrs a day casual tier gaming. -(_ANTHEM_)-
Exactly!
An online game that forces me to play a minimum/day is one I drop like a hot potato. I played both WOW and RIFT. Both were novelty games. Both had the peacock gear crowd that showed their wares in public areas. Both bored me to tears within a month.
The "solo" in Anthem is very attractive. How that translates into "fun" remains to be seen.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 12:58:58 GMT
Revan Reborn I have heard plenty of pep talks about how anyone can "get good" in a game, but after investing countless hours into practice and gearing, and carefully watching the top PvP players when I saw them in the zones (I knew the top 50-100 monikers at the time) I came to realize that just like with everything, hard work and passion will get you somewhere near average. Sometimes I'd fall a bit below, sometimes a bit above. But I will not be able to play classes that exaggerate my gaming handicaps, neither I will be able to play any character creatively, nor my awareness will get were it needs to be, nor my movement pattern will be good enough. So, yes, I can play group content, and I will get up to speed faster and faster with each new game if the game lets me, but I am not going to experience the same emotions of joy the folks have at hitting on the class they shine with, and maxing out gearing and performance. I have to have something else appealing to me to make me play, and that's were lore, story, setting, atmosphere, entourage and character creation comes in, and in that respect SWTOR is unparalleled and beats SP games.that's why I played SWTOR for so long. Anthem so far interests me simply because it is being made by BioWare. By any other company I would not give it a second thought (just like Destiny games). Edit: on twitter folks are responding very positively to Gamble's questions regarding D2, so, I think Bioware-curious crowd likes it.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 7, 2017 18:12:51 GMT
If 1.6 not having enough players discredits it, then most MMOs of that age should also be discredited. On the other hand if it's support for the game being dropped then neither is discredited because Valve still runs patches on all their games. My point is that it's not actually possible to have a design intent for a game to never shut down any more than it's possible to design for selling 10 million copies. You can certainly hope for it and even create technical systems to support it, but the actual design of the game can't design for that. Having a post-launch support cycle of "We'll see how long this thing goes on for" isn't specific to MMOs. While SWtoR had one of the fastest launches they also dropped those subscribers almost equally as quickly. I don't think EA did a bad thing in revamping the game so it would survive rather than riding it to the bottom of the ocean, but it does make statements about decade long support cheap when the game could just turn into something I don't like with any given major content patch. I played SWtoR at launch and it's gone from a game with lack of content to a game that I have absolutely no interest in anymore. I don't mind sticking with a game for years. I mean I still play Counter-Strike which while technically yes Global Offensive is a sequel all it really changed was a visual update and those stupid skin loot crates in terms of the core gameplay. I still play WoW on and off even though I prefer the Burning Crusade/WotLK era. Though the statement of designing for 10+ years of support still doesn't fill me with confidence, and the fact that Activision does it doesn't change anything. One thing I will say regarding MMO development is the games are never done. Well, they aren't done until the lights go out. Unlike most games, which developers stop supporting after a certain amount of time, that's not the case for most MMOs. I understand your point, and I believe you are looking at it from a very rational perspective, but the reality still stands that the MMO genre is unique in its intent for long-term support. My point was this corporate lingo isn't new and isn't specific to EA. I'd take it with a grain of salt until we actually know more about what kind of experience Anthem will be. Then, based on the feature set the game provides, we can conclude whether or not this is an experience that could conceivably last for 10 years. Truth be told, I don't believe a time period needs to be set on the experience. If anything, EA should just express they are looking to support and evolve this game over time and see where it goes. Truth be told, there are only a handful of games that I have come back to and played for years. Outside of a few MMOs, that's either really great franchises (Mass Effect, Dragon Age), or games with thriving and amazing modding communities (The Elder Scrolls, Fallout). I'd love it if BioWare could create an experience that I could get invested in for years to come that didn't have the typical trappings of an MMO. One of the strengths that I felt the Mass Effect trilogy had was retaining the same protagonist and growing over the course of three games. I'd like to see that same level of evolution and growth in Anthem, and I'm really hopeful it's going to be something that blows many of us away. I can agree that MMOs tend to be the ones getting "ongoing development" until they're not profitable while games like Counter-Strike 1.6 was content finished a long time ago and the patches are just bugfixes. Although I still don't know how you "design for 10 years of support" other than a note that says "We're gonna do that" because you have no way of knowing what the market will look like in 10 years. It not being new or specific to EA doesn't change anything though. I find it a worrisome statement if any publisher makes it. I get that you're trying to say that the marketing speak for Anthem isn't wildly different from what we've heard in the past, but I'm not trying to say that it is. I'm saying that historically a developer saying "We're designing this thing to last for 10+ years" has rarely ever yielded good results as far as I'm concerned regardless of which developer or publisher said it. I could most certainly be wrong and I really hope that I am, but it's still a statement that fills me with a bit less confidence rather than more as was probably intended.
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revanreborn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Pax_Augusta
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Post by Revan Reborn on Sept 7, 2017 19:20:48 GMT
Revan Reborn I have heard plenty of pep talks about how anyone can "get good" in a game, but after investing countless hours into practice and gearing, and carefully watching the top PvP players when I saw them in the zones (I knew the top 50-100 monikers at the time) I came to realize that just like with everything, hard work and passion will get you somewhere near average. Sometimes I'd fall a bit below, sometimes a bit above. But I will not be able to play classes that exaggerate my gaming handicaps, neither I will be able to play any character creatively, nor my awareness will get were it needs to be, nor my movement pattern will be good enough. So, yes, I can play group content, and I will get up to speed faster and faster with each new game if the game lets me, but I am not going to experience the same emotions of joy the folks have at hitting on the class they shine with, and maxing out gearing and performance. I have to have something else appealing to me to make me play, and that's were lore, story, setting, atmosphere, entourage and character creation comes in, and in that respect SWTOR is unparalleled and beats SP games.that's why I played SWTOR for so long. Anthem so far interests me simply because it is being made by BioWare. By any other company I would not give it a second thought (just like Destiny games). Edit: on twitter folks are responding very positively to Gamble's questions regarding D2, so, I think Bioware-curious crowd likes it. Fair enough, I suppose. The "top" players are usually at the top because they either only play classes that are FOTM at the time, or they run group compositions that are almost impossible to beat. MMOs are a group effort. One person, alone, rarely decides the fate of a warzone or an arena. Generally, it's a collaborate effort if you want to be at the top. 9 times out of 10, the best overall team will always beat the other team that has the best overall player. I'm not sure what your suggesting by the D2 remarks. Are you hinting at the possibility that Anthem is somehow similar? To my knowledge, Mike Gamble isn't connected to Anthem in any capacity. Perhaps he's working on it now, but he was a producer for Andromeda. He could also be working on Dragon Age 4 now. I can agree that MMOs tend to be the ones getting "ongoing development" until they're not profitable while games like Counter-Strike 1.6 was content finished a long time ago and the patches are just bugfixes. Although I still don't know how you "design for 10 years of support" other than a note that says "We're gonna do that" because you have no way of knowing what the market will look like in 10 years. It not being new or specific to EA doesn't change anything though. I find it a worrisome statement if any publisher makes it. I get that you're trying to say that the marketing speak for Anthem isn't wildly different from what we've heard in the past, but I'm not trying to say that it is. I'm saying that historically a developer saying "We're designing this thing to last for 10+ years" has rarely ever yielded good results as far as I'm concerned regardless of which developer or publisher said it. I could most certainly be wrong and I really hope that I am, but it's still a statement that fills me with a bit less confidence rather than more as was probably intended. Well, to use WoW as an example, you just create a new expansion that adds another race, a new class, and more environments to the game. You may also update the visuals of the game as well, as well as add more raids, dungeons, pvp, etc. Most MMOs create the same kinds of content they already offered from the start. Very few MMOs radically change from what they were initially. SWG is probably the only MMO where the entire combat system and experience was revamped and completely altered from what the game originally was. Rightfully so, SOE was heavily criticized for the move and the game suffered for years as a result. While I certainly understand your concern for what that ultimately means for Anthem, we could also construe it as suggesting EA is funneling a lot of money into this project. For comparison, the Destiny franchise received $500 million from Activision for its 10-year plan. That's not to say that a massive budget will necessarily spell success for Anthem, but it certainly won't be an issue for the studio when it comes to developing the game and supporting it. I think the one thing we can take away from all of this is that BioWare is in a position to do something truly special. Whether that comes to fruition or not is yet to be seen.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 19:24:58 GMT
Revan Reborn Gamble asked on twitter how folks like D2, and overall folks said it was pretty good (to them). I assume that folks who follow Gamble on Twitter are BioWare-curious, so that's their opinion, and their reception of the game is not tepid as you have implied. Those are the folks that would potentially try Anthem imo.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Sept 7, 2017 19:35:39 GMT
Revan Reborn Gamble asked on twitter how folks like D2, and overall folks said it was pretty good (to them). I assume that folks who follow Gamble on Twitter are BioWare-curious, so that's their opinion, and their reception of the game is not tepid as you have implied. Those are the folks that would potentially try Anthem imo. This tweet? Disregarding the fact that very few actually replied to his tweet, we can assume that folks who commented are "BioWare-curious," and we can assume their opinion reflects the majority of the fan base. Of course, it's also just as reasonable to assume that not all gamers are the same, including BioWare fans, and our tastes will differ based on our own personal preferences. You love SWTOR. I think it's a terrible MMO. Yet, we are both BioWare fans. Especially considering we are using Twitter as evidence, which is likely not indicative of the majority of gamers at all (only the minority probably take the time to send tweets to developers), a few possible BioWare fans liking D2 really amounts to nothing. Again, we don't know what Anthem is and I believe you have convinced yourself it is going to be very similar to Destiny 2 with little to no evidence supporting that claim. It's possible you are right, but it's also possible you are wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 19:40:02 GMT
Revan Reborn Gamble asked on twitter how folks like D2, and overall folks said it was pretty good (to them). I assume that folks who follow Gamble on Twitter are BioWare-curious, so that's their opinion, and their reception of the game is not tepid as you have implied. Those are the folks that would potentially try Anthem imo. This tweet? Disregarding the fact that very few actually replied to his tweet, we can assume that folks who commented are "BioWare-curious," and we can assume their opinion reflects the majority of the fan base. Of course, it's also just as reasonable to assume that not all gamers are the same, including BioWare fans, and our tastes will differ based on our own personal preferences. You love SWTOR. I think it's a terrible MMO. Yet, we are both BioWare fans. Especially considering we are using Twitter as evidence, which is likely not indicative of the majority of gamers at all (only the minority probably take the time to send tweets to developers), a few possible BioWare fans liking D2 really amounts to nothing. Again, we don't know what Anthem is and I believe you have convinced yourself it is going to be very similar to Destiny 2 with little to no evidence supporting that claim. It's possible you are right, but it's also possible you are wrong. So, what evidence you have to show that potential BioWare players did not like D2 to make the title of this thread? Or is it just your personal opinion? The very title of your thread makes a correlation that should D2 fail, Anthem is more likely to succeed.
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Post by spacev3gan on Sept 8, 2017 1:17:51 GMT
That being said, considering we don't even know if Anthem will even have competitive multiplayer, netcode may not actually be that much of an issue in the larger scheme of things. The very same argument could be said about Inquisition MP and Andromeda MP. Have you yourself invested much time in those games? I dare say they have the worst, most grotesque netcoding in modern gaming. Inquisition MP was unplayable for months while Andromeda MP is barely playable even today - unless you are hosting or very close to the host. Both games feel exactly the same, they perform the same, they feature the very same netcoding bugs across the board - from minor rubber banding to dead enemies standing still all over the map. They can even be modded/hacked using the same instructions, according to a friend of mine who is into that dirty thing. Three years apart, virtually nothing has changed. Thus we have all reasons to believe Anthem will be the third installment of the Bioware+Frostbite+Multiplayer mess.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Sept 8, 2017 3:03:19 GMT
So, what evidence you have to show that potential BioWare players did not like D2 to make the title of this thread? Or is it just your personal opinion? The very title of your thread makes a correlation that should D2 fail, Anthem is more likely to succeed. I never claimed "potential BioWare players did not like D2." What I did state was that gamers that weren't already fans of Destiny aren't impressed with Destiny 2. It's more of the same and does little to evolve the experience from its predecessor. Whether those "gamers that weren't already fans of Destiny" are BioWare fans or not is an entirely separate issue. You are making conclusions based on inferences that were never made in the OP. I also never claimed D2 would "fail." I did state, however, that its player base was unlikely to grow beyond what it currently has. For those that were hoping for something more ambitious than D2, Anthem could be a possible alternative. I hope that clarifies your previous confusion. The very same argument could be said about Inquisition MP and Andromeda MP. Have you yourself invested much time in those games? I dare say they have the worst, most grotesque netcoding in modern gaming. Inquisition MP was unplayable for months while Andromeda MP is barely playable even today - unless you are hosting or very close to the host. Both games feel exactly the same, they perform the same, they feature the very same netcoding bugs across the board - from minor rubber banding to dead enemies standing still all over the map. They can even be modded/hacked using the same instructions, according to a friend of mine who is into that dirty thing. Three years apart, virtually nothing has changed. Thus we have all reasons to believe Anthem will be the third installment of the Bioware+Frostbite+Multiplayer mess. Nope. The last BioWare MP experience I played was ME3 MP. I never bothered with DAI, because I don't play Dragon Age games for multiplayer and it didn't look good. I also haven't tried MEA MP yet, largely because I didn't feel ME3 MP was that amazing to begin with. I certainly recognize that netcoding would still be an issue. It's just not as much of an issue when you are dealing with enemy AI, versus other players. I'm fairly certain that MEA MP, and like DAI MP, are based on a P2P infrastructure. We have no idea if Anthem will be incorporating a similar infrastructure. Given the fact that we won't be finding mindless waves of enemies, and will have a cooperative experience of exploring an open world, we've never really had this kind of BioWare experience before. The only game that would be close to this would be SWTOR in that regard, and it obviously has its own dedicated servers. I don't believe BioWare has even spoken about how this game is going to be accomplished, but it's more important now than ever before for the multiplayer to be smooth. DAI MP and MEA MP is an optional side feature. Anthem, while the multiplayer could be optional, is largely integral and tied into the very fabric of the main experience.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Sept 8, 2017 12:22:17 GMT
What's been the reception of D2 since launch?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2017 13:12:53 GMT
What's been the reception of D2 since launch? Metacritic shows 75 positive, 18 mixed and 57 negative for PS4. PC version was not released yet. Hard to say. Even harder to say if many people who did not play D1 bought into D2. Personally, the way the things look right now, I will likely pass on Anthem. I am trying to get back into isometric projection so that opens up Obsidian revival games, and if Spiders games are half decent, chances are, I will move to their products from Bio's as I prefer lower production cost, faster releases with more interesting settings vs slow releases and too much money pumped into frills. SWTOR was great, but whatever Anthem is, it's definetly not SWTOR, and I just don't think it's going to be enjoyable for me. The setting is just boring to start with.
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 8, 2017 14:48:55 GMT
Never played Destiny (due to first person view). Liked Mass Effect Multiplayer (third person view).
Anthem might be something I will enjoy, it sits between things I normally like and things I normally don't like.
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 8, 2017 14:58:19 GMT
Never played Destiny (due to first person view). Liked Mass Effect Multiplayer (third person view). Anthem might be something I will enjoy, it sits between things I normally like and things I normally don't like. Might I interest you for Alien Isolation? The 1st person actually adds to the experience. Just in case you're looking for a good 1st P game.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2017 15:01:59 GMT
Well, okay, Anthem being a 3rd person is a positive thing. Small blessings, I guess.
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 8, 2017 15:13:52 GMT
Never played Destiny (due to first person view). Liked Mass Effect Multiplayer (third person view). Anthem might be something I will enjoy, it sits between things I normally like and things I normally don't like. Might I interest you for Alien Isolation? The 1st person actually adds to the experience. Just in case you're looking for a good 1st P game. Thanks. Yes, I enjoyed Alien Isolation (though I thought twice before buying). Ultimately the game outstayed its welcome a little (25% too long, bit too much backtracking) but otherwise fun. First person games I have enjoyed included the Bioshock and Dishonored series (even Wolfenstein I enjoyed). Games I tried but gave up on included Titanfall and Battlefront. Perhaps the issue for me is more about assholes with uber-grinded gear shooting me in the back (so it's mostly the PVP), though I prefer 3rd person view.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Sept 8, 2017 21:21:44 GMT
What's been the reception of D2 since launch? As far as the "gaming press" is concerned, there aren't enough actual reviews to have a conclusive outlook on its success. It's currently hovering at 88/100 from four official reviews. That could rapidly change as more reviews are released over the course of the week and beyond. Destiny 1 received a 76/100, which is actually really bad for a AAA game. As far as how the public feels about the game, it's receiving a 6.1/10 from metacritic users, which is the same mediocre score Destiny 1 received from users. Obviously, that's only a small portion of the gaming community, but most seem to agree Destiny 2 is more of the same. That's really the crux of the argument, that Destiny 2 is more of the same with little new to offer. If you liked Destiny 1, you will likely like Destiny 2. If you did not care for Destiny 1, you probably won't care for Destiny 2. This isn't the kind of experience that's likely to dramatically increase the player base beyond what it already is. The only platform that might see a sizable growth would be PC, since that platform did not have the previous game. Never played Destiny (due to first person view). Liked Mass Effect Multiplayer (third person view). Anthem might be something I will enjoy, it sits between things I normally like and things I normally don't like. We don't actually know whether or not Anthem will have PvP, which is something you don't appear to like in shooters. So far, we've only been shown the cooperative experience, which is an approach ME3 MP, MEA MP, and DAI MP all took.
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 8, 2017 21:23:14 GMT
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Post by Revan Reborn on Sept 8, 2017 21:26:27 GMT
Didn't even think to bring this issue up. The microtransactions are upsetting a sizable portion of the Destiny 2 community. Bungie shrugged it off in tweets. Not only are shaders now consumables, but you can acquire exotic mods in the loot crates. The game is inching more and more closer to pay-to-win, and gamers aren't happy about it. What's even worse is we didn't find out about this until seeing the cash shop for the first time in the game. Bungie and Activision never mentioned or addressed this once during the marketing campaign. This was just underhanded, considering most were happy with how shaders functioned in Destiny 1.
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 8, 2017 21:47:18 GMT
BioWare's response for Anthem: - Look at the bad press about MT's - we can generate good PR and more players by not being so aggressive.
- Look at the money that's being made in consumable DLC's we can make that too.
Pick one...
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 9, 2017 1:15:01 GMT
BioWare's response for Anthem: - Look at the bad press about MT's - we can generate good PR and more players by not being so aggressive.
- Look at the money that's being made in consumable DLC's we can make that too.
Pick one... -(_ANTHEM_)-
Really hoping someone can ask Bio about this issue when the studio deigns to talk about the game. (A) is my preferred choice.
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